2sure Posted April 1, 2009 Posted April 1, 2009 As a former OW , ( multiple times) and a currently recovering BS - I thought this topic might have something to offer both. We all learn as life happens and the lessons can be important. As an OW I learned that MM dont always have real problems with their wife or marriage. They say they do for one of several reasons: *They need to justify the A to themselves &/or to OW. To themselves, of course - to OW just to talk her into the A & so they dont look like the bad guy. *They have normal problems & prefer to simply whine rather than deal with them. You are who they whine to. If you are receptive to this - expect more of the same. I always preferred they shut up & get on with it- but they are more into conversation than any woman I know. *They want to be seen as the victim (so you know they are harmless) At the exact same time he will tell you that his wife is pretty, kids are perfect, and he earns a good living. This is because he needs to be a big shot. Thats all fine -buy me a car. When my H cheated on me, I was helped by the fact that knowing the above - I almost couldnt take it personally. Anyone else learn anything useful?
Lucky_One Posted April 1, 2009 Posted April 1, 2009 I learned that someone can lie to your face and totally convince you that they are telling the truth. I learned that his vision of reality was far different than her vision of reality. I learned that increasing the level of sexual kinkiness and going to further and further extremes doesn't lead to emotional closeness nor make a relationship more viable for the future.
Author 2sure Posted April 1, 2009 Author Posted April 1, 2009 Oh yeah, the sexual adventure thing. LOL. I thought one of the main reason my H married me was because I am extrmemly open minded about sex. His cheating on me had nothing to do with sex itself. Also - speaking as former OW: Affair sex CANNOT BE BEAT. It must be the taboo. The fact that its wrong makes it "dirty". Everyone knows that "dirty" sex is hot. AS SOON AS IT IS NOT TABOO - poof.
Author 2sure Posted April 1, 2009 Author Posted April 1, 2009 WOW. I am the only OW that actually learned anything. I guess I'm not SHOCKED...but - I mean, there is nothing terribly special or unique about me.
IfWishesWereHorses Posted April 1, 2009 Posted April 1, 2009 *They have normal problems & prefer to simply whine rather than deal with them. You are who they whine to. If you are receptive to this - expect more of the same. I always preferred they shut up & get on with it- but they are more into conversation than any woman I know. This reminds me of teenagers who are mad at their parents! LOL, if I heard they're crazy from my D's friends one more time my eyes would have been stuck in the back of my head for good.
samprez Posted April 1, 2009 Posted April 1, 2009 2Sure...my friend It's called congnitive dissonance when we use our minds to justify actions. Expanding small normal problems at home into bigger ones to allow us to have the a's.
jj33 Posted April 2, 2009 Posted April 2, 2009 Well one thing I finally learned is that it is not about looks or anything like that. I am attractive but xMM knows world class beauties and he could have gone off with one of them for a fling. he didnt. So it wasnt about having a young hot woman on is arm. I am only a few years younger than his wife and she is in much better shape than I am. So its not about that all the time. She is more athletic more chic thinner etc etc. If we were married and he had an affair with her, people would say i was frumpy by comparison (well not frumpy but certainly heavier) and she is more chic. But then most human beings other than the twins Ashley and whoever are heavier than she is... . (others would say shes very conventional looking and I am exotic but there you go). So agree with you 2sure, its not all about sex and looks in all cases. In all cases its about them and their foibles. I also learned that no matter what its about I dont need to spend the rest of my life pining away for him. If he wants to stay married and pine for me, that is his prerogative. But I dont have the whole family etc etc etc that keeps him married and I deserve to move forward and build my own life. Finally finally I got to the point where I realised it doesnt matter HOW he feels about me. The fact is he is married and hasnt left so? All the rest of it is just so much chatter. Its a distraction.
GreenEyedLady Posted April 2, 2009 Posted April 2, 2009 Affair sex CANNOT BE BEAT. It must be the taboo. The fact that its wrong makes it "dirty". Everyone knows that "dirty" sex is hot. AS SOON AS IT IS NOT TABOO - poof. I HAVE TO DISAGREE WITH YOU: MARRIED SEX TOTALLY ROCKS! As Kevin Bacon quoted about having a successful M: Keep the fights clean and the sex dirty. It's the people in the M who determine whether the sex is hot. If someone chooses not to spice it up or let it get old, well that's their choice. Sure as hell ain't mine. GEL
GreenEyedLady Posted April 2, 2009 Posted April 2, 2009 WOW. I am the only OW that actually learned anything. I guess I'm not SHOCKED...but - I mean, there is nothing terribly special or unique about me. Well that's not condescending or anything is it? Wanna know what I learned? Not to settle. People treat you the way you let them. Actions speak louder than words. And that if you hold out for what you need, you'll get it, eventually. That life is a self-fulfilling prophecy. And that sometimes men DO leave their W's. GEL
Mr. Lucky Posted April 2, 2009 Posted April 2, 2009 I guess I'm still learning.. And learning. And learning. And learning. And learning .... Mr. Lucky
Confused4Now Posted April 2, 2009 Posted April 2, 2009 Well that's not condescending or anything is it? Wanna know what I learned? Not to settle. People treat you the way you let them. Actions speak louder than words. And that if you hold out for what you need, you'll get it, eventually. That life is a self-fulfilling prophecy. And that sometimes men DO leave their W's. GEL The same would apply to both sides.....I did leave
Cliche Posted April 2, 2009 Posted April 2, 2009 It's the people in the M who determine whether the sex is hot. If someone chooses not to spice it up or let it get old, well that's their choice. Sure as hell ain't mine. GEL Thank you, GEL. My sex life hasn't been taboo for a year and a half and it's way hotter than it was when it was "taboo." If your (general) sex isn't hot, make it that way. It's not really that difficult. What I learned: When I focus on my life and my own decisions, I am empowered. People are imperfect. Relationships aren't always neat. I cannot make another person do something. Ultimatums are useless. I must take the lead in my own life's journey, and whether someone wants to take it with me is their choice and only their choice. And yes, some married men do divorce. Some relationships that began as affairs end in really spectacular, happy long-term relationships.
boldjack Posted April 2, 2009 Posted April 2, 2009 2 baby, You are right on the money. Mw's acted this way too. Back in my Cheating days, the reasons for MW's having an affair were usually: A) their H didn't understand or communicate with them enough. B)Their H was either not romantic or boring. C)Their H didn't satisfy them, sexually or emotionlly. D) they were sl*ts. It was ok with me, all I wanted was pu**y. ALL of the above were naturally their H's fault. Nothing is more pathetic than to Lay with a woman and hear her cry and whine about how unloved she felt or how she was "in love with me", but still "loved", her H. All of this 10 minutes after we had f**ked ourselves into exhaustion. It's ok though, They are, after all, the "victims". I was with one who gave me Oral in the front seat of my car, then walked into the house and kissed her H right on the mouth. I SAW this from the car. What a piece of work. Thank God I've a little more self-respect now.
OpenBook Posted April 2, 2009 Posted April 2, 2009 Yes, I think most would agree that putting oneself in the OW's position is not a good bet all-around. The MM, whether consciously or not, thinks less of you when you agree to be his thing on the side. ("What self-respecting woman would do that?") And the disrespecting behavior ultimately follows the disrespectful thinking. The thing I've always wondered about is, what about his W? He certainly isn't respecting her either. Why would a self-respecting woman stay with a man like that? What guarantee does she have that he won't do it again? And what makes her think she has the power to change his way of thinking? She doesn't - it's all up to him. And most men (knowing it was all up to themselves, they hold all the power keys) would continue to take advantage, doing everything they can to have their cake and eat it too. It's human nature to get away with as much as you possibly can. So I don't see a favorable position for a woman either way. Sadly, I've learned to expect nothing from men in the romantic realm, and am living my life standing on my own two feet with total emotional independence from them. That's what I've learned, as an ex-OW and as an ex-W (although cheating wasn't a problem in my brief marriage) - you cannot depend on a man, for anything. You must always be prepared to do it on your own, in case he falls through (which he inevitably does).
Author 2sure Posted April 2, 2009 Author Posted April 2, 2009 Well one thing I finally learned is that it is not about looks or anything like that. I am attractive but xMM knows world class beauties ... This is very very true. I am average, maybe slightly above. When I was seeing MM initially - they were guys that were, I thought, out of my "league". As in if they were single, they would be dating someone better than me. But they were not single. And I was available, which made me very attractive as an A partner. In fact, because these guys were so caught up in the all about me/I have a gf fantasy...in their minds I was way more attractive than I was. Had to be, for the fantasy to work. But something wonderful happened in the meantime: THE LESSON Eventually I started to believe the compliments. My confidence soared. After awhile I was getting attention from the same kind of men , except available ones. They had never been out of my league, I just didnt have the confidence to attract them.
Author 2sure Posted April 2, 2009 Author Posted April 2, 2009 Sadly, I've learned to expect nothing from men in the romantic realm, and am living my life standing on my own two feet with total emotional independence from them. That's what I've learned, as an ex-OW and as an ex-W (although cheating wasn't a problem in my brief marriage) - you cannot depend on a man, for anything. You must always be prepared to do it on your own, in case he falls through (which he inevitably does). OpenBook - No one can say that being emotionally strong and not counting on others is a bad thing - its wonderful & healthy. I had at one point, given up entirely on men, romance, the idea of finding a true partner...and probably even the human race as far as real trust. But , through being not just an OW & a BS - but many other of life's experiences and tragedies...Ive learned: You find what you look for and Trust Myself: Others can hurt me but its my own capacity for recovery that allows me to continue to risk trusting others.
taylor Posted April 2, 2009 Posted April 2, 2009 I guess I'm still learning.. Lizzie, Just want to say I love your avatars. They always show how provocative a woman can look WITH clothes on. Ok, off topic..I know.
Bluebird In My Heart Posted April 2, 2009 Posted April 2, 2009 As a former OW , ( multiple times) and a currently recovering BS - I thought this topic might have something to offer both. We all learn as life happens and the lessons can be important. As an OW I learned that MM dont always have real problems with their wife or marriage. They say they do for one of several reasons: *They need to justify the A to themselves &/or to OW. To themselves, of course - to OW just to talk her into the A & so they dont look like the bad guy. *They have normal problems & prefer to simply whine rather than deal with them. You are who they whine to. If you are receptive to this - expect more of the same. I always preferred they shut up & get on with it- but they are more into conversation than any woman I know. *They want to be seen as the victim (so you know they are harmless) At the exact same time he will tell you that his wife is pretty, kids are perfect, and he earns a good living. This is because he needs to be a big shot. Thats all fine -buy me a car. When my H cheated on me, I was helped by the fact that knowing the above - I almost couldnt take it personally. Anyone else learn anything useful? Prepare to bleed. Even if you had a great sense of self worth beforehand, it will be no time at all before that will become a fading memory. Why is that? Some people would say it's because you're screwed up to begin with. Possibly. I can't say. All I can say is being in the shadows makes you become a shadow... * Ironically enough, the longer you are willing to settle for less (because god forbid you are anything like their true partner and demand to get your needs met too), the easier it becomes to be taken for granted. You teach people how to treat you. * You don't get supported, cared for...anything at all. Instead you get taken from. Again and again and again. * By participating in it, you become tainted in their eyes. Unfair and odd that should happen, but I've heard of this happening. * You "blow your wad" so to speak. Most of the time the timing of these things is way off. It's hard to put into words, but most of the time (not all!), these things happen at the wrong time. Meaning - it might've "worked" had he really been ready to become yours out in the open...but he wasn't quite as ready as you may have been led to believe (if he ever was)...therefore, by the time he does get out...you will be associated with a crappy time in his life, and he may very likely be tired of you by then, too! * Every time he goes home, you will be reminded that he isn't yours. * Every time something good happens, you will be reminded that he's really at home and you can't share that. Because you are not a priority. * Every time you need help, or are down you will be reminded that he can't help you...he is in a "situation". Sometimes it does works out, but I wouldn't bet on it. AT ALL. I think even some of the people who ended up in the circumstances they wished to be in can attest to that.
Author 2sure Posted April 2, 2009 Author Posted April 2, 2009 * Ironically enough, the longer you are willing to settle for less (because god forbid you are anything like their true partner and demand to get your needs met too), the easier it becomes to be taken for granted. You teach people how to treat you. This sums up one my life's biggest lessons. Everything in your post is true, sadly. In the end though, it is the underlined part that is most important to me. I am not proud of my experience as OW, but I did take that lesson and applied it. I changed my expectations of myself and others, I raised the bar. Truly a lesson I needed to learn.
Bluebird In My Heart Posted April 2, 2009 Posted April 2, 2009 ^ It's so true, though, isn't it? One of life's great lessons, indeed! And once you truly understand that, you have it for life and it's beautiful. I've seen this too many times... someone cares for someone...they get attached...and the next thing they know they have compromised themselves into oblivion. That is very sad. Oh! And I thought of two more. Here's the TRUE PISSER (to me, anyway): * In many ways, you're making it easier for them to tolerate staying in the marriage (in a typical affair situation). You become an unpaid sex therapist/needs-meeter, and guess who benefits? The husband, the wife and their marriage. * When it's over between you, they will often be "Better and closer than ever! Woo Hoo!" (*retch!* ) You will be looked at as damaged goods - and a left a wreck that gave way too much for way too long. Now, that well and truly sucks. [i'm talking typical affairs here]
marlena Posted April 2, 2009 Posted April 2, 2009 Here's what I learned: both MM/MW and CS should be kicked to the curb before they kick you there first!
taylor Posted April 2, 2009 Posted April 2, 2009 I am a MW who had an EA with an OM. He had a live-in girlfriend at the time he started coming on to me. She left him a couple months later. So technically I was a MOW at least for a little while. Can I still join the party? What I learned about men who want to get involved in affairs: 1) They do whine and complain about their relationships. My OM was bitter about his first wife, called her crazy, portrayed himself as the victim...the martyr...She ruined his life, she backstabbed him..she completely went off the deep end..but he loved her with all his heart. His live-in girlfriend was ALSO CRAZY, Crazy, crazy. He was doing everything good and noble to hold the relationship together and she was just so unreasonable and selfish. She didn't cook and she screamed at his kids all the time. He deserved so much better. BOTH women left him high and dry...walked right out the door. But he was the good guy. They were just two women with no morals. "Oh, why, oh, why can't I find a good woman with some decent morals." he would lament. Of course I bought into all this: Poor guy. How could these women be so mean and nasty to him. They didn't appreciate him. They didn't understand him. They took him and all his goodness for granted. They didn't deserve him. He deserves someone so much better...like me! 2) They love to show you how much they appreciate you. They tell you how happy they are that you are in their life and how important you have become to them. My OM invested alot of time complimenting and flattering me. His favorite thing to do was take every opportunity to compare me to his ex-wife and ex-girlfriend, telling me how much he wished they were like ME. How many times did I hear the expression, "Oh, why couldn't they have been like YOU." His other favorite expression, "You don't know how happy I am that you came into my life. I've never met anyone like you in my entire life." 3) They lie about everything to make themselves look good...gloss over the bad...emphasize the good. The lies he told me...too many to list. 4) Their words express care and concern. But their actions say something else. When they say they want to and will be there for you, don't believe it unless they are standing right there beside you when you actually do need them. Chances are they will be nowhere to be found. What I learned from my emotional affair (in general) is how naive I was. I learned that people will lie to get what they want if they want it bad enough. That people are selfish and willing to step on good-hearted people to get what they want. They will read your weakness and use them to their advantage to get from you what they want. My OM was grooming me for a sexual encounter for over 7 months and I didn't even realize it. I thought he genuinely cared for me, but he was only interested in what I could give him. He had me fooled. He did it with his soft, romantic words; his undivided attention; the "sincerity" in his eyes, and his well-crafted lies. He painted a picture of himself as this good, noble man who was beaten down by a life of bad breaks and desperately needed someone to save him, to love him, to care for him, to appreciate him. He played the sympathy card. He knew it would draw me in. But he knew what he was doing. In the end, that's all he wanted was sex. The second most important thing I learned from my EA was this: Don't give a man your heart if that's all he wants to give you is his penis. It's not an equal exchange. I also learned many things about myself as well...there are no innocents in an affair. I am in the "angry" stage right now (can you tell)...angry at him and angrier at myself. It's been a year.
Author 2sure Posted April 2, 2009 Author Posted April 2, 2009 On another note... Something I learned as an OW that helped my marriage recover when I later married and my H cheated.(yes, thats right- Karma came a knockin) On D Day, I felt like : What did I do, What is he lacking, Why did he do this, How can I fix this ...etc etc ad nauseum. But pretty quickly I realized that it wasnt my fault. The marriage didnt have any root problems yet. There was nothing wrong with me. So many OW accept the justifications MM give for having the A. In fact, everyone always says that the A itself is a symptom or a result of another bigger deeper problem in a marriage. Bullsh*t. Sometimes, yes. But the rest of the time the bigger, deeper problem in the marriage is just the WS.
marlena Posted April 2, 2009 Posted April 2, 2009 In fact, everyone always says that the A itself is a symptom or a result of another bigger deeper problem in a marriage. Bullsh*t. Yes, it is BS!!! It's just the thrill of it most of the time!!
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