Me of All People

[samprez]

What an arrogant point of view to take. That you wish them luck and that a better life is out there for them if they choose to stay. Who are you to determine that for anyone? There are many stories out her from BS who have formed wonderful relationships with their spouses even after the affairs have been revealed.

 

I suppose that we are going to reach that annoying, agree to disagree point in our discussion. Life is not black and white and we all have to deal with issues as they arise.

 

I've owned my situation fully and yet it's convenient for you to have ignored my comments about the pain and suffering that I'lll be saddled with as part of my situation. That's fine, you can selectively "quote" people to make your point. You spend a ton of time out here, more than most on your reclamation project.

 

I'm very sorry that you've been scorched, can't imagine what you went through, but it's always wise to walk a mile in others shoes.

[samprez]

Athena. Never say never. We don't know Dexter. Perhaps he cheats at golf or crosses the lines on his taxes or doesn't give up his seat for pregnant ladies on the train.

 

Look at his screen name. Dexter the serial murderer from TV. Interesting. I'm kidding of course but the point is that life happens and we all have to deal with it.

 

Would I have handled my situation differently in hindsight, YOU BET, but I didn't so I live with the results. What I'm saying is that we don't have to skew all cheaters with the same brand. There are even multiple degrees of murder, manslaughter and drunk driving.

[Dexter Morgan]

What an arrogant point of view to take. That you wish them luck and that a better life is out there for them if they choose to stay.

 

Nothing arrogant about believing they could have a better life, but since my sypmathies lie with them, I'd never best them for staying. I wish them luck.

 

 

Who are you to determine that for anyone?

 

get real, nobody is "determining" anything for anyone. Everyone here has opinions and can give advice. Its up to the person to take what advice suits them.

 

You just don't like that fact because you are a cheater that I advise people against staying with cheaters.

 

 

There are many stories out her from BS who have formed wonderful relationships with their spouses even after the affairs have been revealed.

 

And as long as they are happy, I am glad for them. Still doesn't change my opinion.

 

 

I'm very sorry that you've been scorched, can't imagine what you went through, but it's always wise to walk a mile in others shoes.

 

Now why in the hell would I want to walk in a cheater's shoes?

 

Why would I want to be a cheater?

[bentnotbroken]

Athena. Never say never. We don't know Dexter. Perhaps he cheats at golf or crosses the lines on his taxes or doesn't give up his seat for pregnant ladies on the train.

 

Look at his screen name. Dexter the serial murderer from TV. Interesting. I'm kidding of course but the point is that life happens and we all have to deal with it.

 

Would I have handled my situation differently in hindsight, YOU BET, but I didn't so I live with the results. What I'm saying is that we don't have to skew all cheaters with the same brand. There are even multiple degrees of murder, manslaughter and drunk driving.

 

 

I don't want to get between you and Dex, but may I respectfully ask a question? Have you truly walked in a BS shoes? Is it possible to? I know for me, know matter how many posts that I read from WS, I don't get it? I have tried to understand, I just don't get it? Maybe it is because I view life as black and white too. I can't imagine looking at the person I love and lying to them or seeing the pain that I am causing and still go do the same thing.

 

That is not to say that some WS aren't truly remorseful and do everything that it takes for as long as it takes to try to help a BS heal, or that some WS aren't decent people overall. I have met some truly remorseful AP and I have met some who didn't give a damn and left a wake of destruction. And I don't know what they feel like in their own skin, and I would assume that no matter what you see, read or think you know, you have no clue what your BS is really feeling, she isn't going to tell you about every little twinge, every knot that forms in her stomach, every tug at her heart from a word, gesture or situation. She loves you too much. She chose to work with you, so there are some things she is going to keep to herself. We all do. But her ability to trust will never be at the level pre-A.

 

Societies portrayal of AP doesn't help either. It's glamorous, addicting, passionate and the always romantic. But the level of destruction is never shown. Yes, we see a bs crying, maybe pulling a stunt of revenge or even the Betty Broderick incident. The years worth of rebuilding your self esteem, the nightmares, the visions of your spouse with someone else, touching them, kissing them, having sex with them, just sharing with them. All the while you are home knowing something is off and yet you are being told no, everything is fine. The years of learning to trust your own judgment again. The flair ups of anger and sadness. For the most BS are shown to deserve it. They weren't good to their spouses. They were cold, not sexual or even manipulating. That image may fit a small percentage of BS, but not most of us.

 

I pray that you never actually walk a mile in your BS shoes. JMHO and something to consider.

[Dexter Morgan]

Athena. Never say never. We don't know Dexter. Perhaps he cheats at golf or crosses the lines on his taxes or doesn't give up his seat for pregnant ladies on the train.

 

:lmao: You are going to compare cheating on a golf score to screwing someone behind your wife's back?

 

oh brother...now I've heard it all.

 

 

Would I have handled my situation differently in hindsight, YOU BET

 

so much for "never say never"

 

 

What I'm saying is that we don't have to skew all cheaters with the same brand. There are even multiple degrees of murder, manslaughter and drunk driving.

 

I'm not saying all cheaters are the same. But the results are the same.

 

I think you have cheaters that are truly remorseful and "think" they will never do it again. Does that matter to me? No. I don't want to be with someone that has done it even once no matter how remorseful they may be. why would I settle for that?

 

If others want to stay with a cheater, hey, I hope it works out for them.

[samprez]

Hey Dex, Never say Never meant that one never knows what type of situation you'd find yourself in. My golf analogy was we all draw different lines in the sand, notwithstanding that cheating is of course wrong.

 

Bent - I hear what you are saying. The punishment I have is knowing that the doubt, the soulfull crying, the mistrust is something that I created. It is its own punishment. I am not in her shoes but I can see the damage and feel the loss so it's very real to me.

 

I don't want you or anyone reading this to think I'm justifying terrible decisions and mistakes, but to try and differentiate between intent and results.

[Dexter Morgan]

I don't want you or anyone reading this to think I'm justifying terrible decisions and mistakes, but to try and differentiate between intent and results.

 

Ok, point taken. There is a difference between, the rare instance, someone who intended to hurt their spouse by cheating, and there are those that did NOT intend to hurt their spouse by cheating.

 

that being said, I don't care what the intent was. cheating is cheating and I'll never stay with a cheater.

[samprez]

Fair enough!!! That is a personal choice that I can respect.

[bentnotbroken]

Hey Dex, Never say Never meant that one never knows what type of situation you'd find yourself in. My golf analogy was we all draw different lines in the sand, notwithstanding that cheating is of course wrong.

 

Bent - I hear what you are saying. The punishment I have is knowing that the doubt, the soulfull crying, the mistrust is something that I created. It is its own punishment. I am not in her shoes but I can see the damage and feel the loss so it's very real to me.

 

I don't want you or anyone reading this to think I'm justifying terrible decisions and mistakes, but to try and differentiate between intent and results.

 

 

That's just it, intent doesn't change the results. Only your continued hard work will lessen the pain of those results. The scars will still be there on her soul. You spoke of different levels of murder. Yes there are, but is the person any less dead? The black and white of that situation is that a person that was once living, is no longer breathing. That they are gone forever. That's what cheating does, the person you know before the A is gone forever, some are replaced with an improved version and others a more damaged version, but they are killed in original form.

 

The intent only matters in how you deal with the thing that hurt the person. It, as Dex does say, change the outcome. There is no intent on my part to beat you up, but the feelings that my & Dex's post stir are there none the less...right? The frustration, the anger, the feeling of not being heard or understood. Us not walking a mile in your shoes. I don't know what Dex's intent is, but I am not trying to shove you into a hole, I am just trying to say, intent looks a lot differently depending on which side of the fence you are sitting on.

[jwi71]

JW. I believe you are confusing the result with the start. Your "reasons" comment is off base. I think to generalize this subject is dangerous. I had no motive because motives imply intent again. I will tell you that when I got involved, I did NOT KNOW WHAT THE HELL I WAS DOING. I agree that once underwater I made decisions to keep it that way. But it's difficult to surface after you've made that fatal last step into hell. As my therapist has said; even people in good marriages can end up in affairs." This is not an exact science and as a WS I will share with you that the confusion and disorientation is not excuse making, it's real.

 

In MC I was telling my W and the counselor that to think of the A as a bubble and all of the actions within the bubble are contained to the A. Make sense? We all practice selling ourselves on what we're doing is ok because it's a natural human response to justify any action any of us take.

 

Owning and being accountable after the fact is part of the healing process.

 

I simply cannot see how you or any WS does NOT have intent.

In a nutshell, you met a woman and kept your interactions with her secret. Which requires lying. Which requires a) admission of wrongdoing and b) INTENT.

 

You don't accidentally lie to your spouse about this OW. And because of that I maintain the INTENT begins almost on day one - which btw is well before the fog sets in.

 

To claim otherwise by any WS...simple boggles my mind. In my own situation, my wife had several one on one lunches with her boss early in her A. And she hid them from me. Because she knew it was wrong ... and she purposely went to lunch and purposely omitted telling me. I'm sure the vast majority of A's begin like that...simple omissions which grow with the fog.

And my KEY point...is the intent to have lunch and lie about it existed from day one...well before the fog.

 

A question for you Samprez would be...what was the first lie you told your W? I am willing to bet it was long before the fog settled in. See my point? And even though I ask it specifically of you...it is equally valid for every WS.

 

So, for me, I still think you are hiding from or not facing that intent you had. Your motives...entirely yours. Why did you meet the soon-to-be-OW and why hide the meetings?

 

Again, ten to one the fog did NOT exist when you first lied.

 

Not attacking you...just hoping you see my point as I DO see yours - that once the fog settles in you are some wierd space alien. Get it. Understand it. Witnessed it myself. And I do agree.

 

And before the fog settled...there was motive and intent.

[Reggie]

I don't think it is accurate to say the results are always the same. Clearly, folks handle this in different ways and react to it with varying degrees of pain.

So much depends on the BS's individual tolerance for this type of trauma and betrayal.

I am amazed that some folks are, apparently, okay with staying in a marriage with a cheater and that they are happy. But, many claim this is so and I have no reason to dispute these claims. People just have a very wide range of tolerance for infidelity.

[samprez]

Bent, I would argue that you and Dex are stirred by my responses. I'm articulating a logical point of view from what you see as the illogical position. I've been saying that many people who are in my shoes understand that the intent to have hurt our spouses was likely not the driver. I found myself head deep in an affair that I regret and hate in hindsight. I covered it up to avoid hurting my wife while I went through the process of sorting out my situation. Who knows, perhaps I wanted to get caught.

 

What I'm saying is that while the person murdered is no less dead, the intent that contributed to their death is part of creating the punishment. I think that people are resiliant and with time and hard work can and do recover from even life's biggest challenges. My wife is at the beginning and frustration we are both experiencing is; well frustrating.

 

But the process is working.

 

My walk a mile comment was to suggest that we are human and suspect to failures. The result for me has been a devestating blow to my being and the knowledge that I inflicted the damage. Those who are not remorseful or changed are a different ilk.

[samprez]

I simply cannot see how you or any WS does NOT have intent.

In a nutshell, you met a woman and kept your interactions with her secret. Which requires lying. Which requires a) admission of wrongdoing and b) INTENT.

 

You don't accidentally lie to your spouse about this OW. And because of that I maintain the INTENT begins almost on day one - which btw is well before the fog sets in.

 

To claim otherwise by any WS...simple boggles my mind. In my own situation, my wife had several one on one lunches with her boss early in her A. And she hid them from me. Because she knew it was wrong ... and she purposely went to lunch and purposely omitted telling me. I'm sure the vast majority of A's begin like that...simple omissions which grow with the fog.

And my KEY point...is the intent to have lunch and lie about it existed from day one...well before the fog.

 

A question for you Samprez would be...what was the first lie you told your W? I am willing to bet it was long before the fog settled in. See my point? And even though I ask it specifically of you...it is equally valid for every WS.

 

So, for me, I still think you are hiding from or not facing that intent you had. Your motives...entirely yours. Why did you meet the soon-to-be-OW and why hide the meetings?

 

Again, ten to one the fog did NOT exist when you first lied.

 

Not attacking you...just hoping you see my point as I DO see yours - that once the fog settles in you are some wierd space alien. Get it. Understand it. Witnessed it myself. And I do agree.

 

And before the fog settled...there was motive and intent.

 

When my situation started, I had shared with my W that MW and I were in touch via online social network. She knew her name from years ago and was ok with it. In fact, I shared several of the conversations I had had with her because MW wanted to meet W to compare notes on an issue they had in common. When things started to get "Foggy" I didn't lie per se' but I omited things. My W knew we were in touch but I slowly was being less communicative about my interactions online with MW. The fog was settling in pretty quickly and I didn't see that I was surrounded until I was deep in it. I guess the first outright lie was the first time we met for drinks. But by then, the emotional attachment was well on its way and I was in it.

 

There wasn't a ah ha moment to say, this is when I decided to do X. It was a slow moving ride that ended up in hell.

[bentnotbroken]

Bent, I would argue that you and Dex are stirred by my responses. I'm articulating a logical point of view from what you see as the illogical position. I've been saying that many people who are in my shoes understand that the intent to have hurt our spouses was likely not the driver. I found myself head deep in an affair that I regret and hate in hindsight. I covered it up to avoid hurting my wife while I went through the process of sorting out my situation. Who knows, perhaps I wanted to get caught.

 

What I'm saying is that while the person murdered is no less dead, the intent that contributed to their death is part of creating the punishment. I think that people are resiliant and with time and hard work can and do recover from even life's biggest challenges. My wife is at the beginning and frustration we are both experiencing is; well frustrating.

 

But the process is working.

 

My walk a mile comment was to suggest that we are human and suspect to failures. The result for me has been a devestating blow to my being and the knowledge that I inflicted the damage. Those who are not remorseful or changed are a different ilk.[/QUOTE]

 

 

I wish I were stirred by your responses, then I might get it. I have heard it so much, I guess I have gone tone deaf to it:pMr. Messy's favorit tune. None remorseful or changed......different to say the least

[Snowflower]

I wasn't going to comment on this thread as it appears the OP is long gone but samprez, I just wanted to say I'm grateful that you are posting here-despite the flaming you are getting.

 

I think the WS point of view is so important and useful. Yes, I am on the BS side of the fence but I think we need posters from BOTH sides for this forum to have any real relevance.

 

Samprez, your point about intent/motive is right on, IMO. There was another recent thread, "Does it always end in divorce" (sorry, I don't know how to link the thread here) where this idea was debated. I argued, as the BS, that motive/intent did matter very much to me. Yes, the end result is the same--horrible pain for the betrayed spouse--but intent does make a difference.

 

All WS are not the same--they all do not enter into A's for the same reasons. Many times it is a result of incredibly poor decision making or bad judgement or even (gasp) a mistake. All people make 'em, some are just bigger than others.

 

By the same token, all BS (me) are not the same either. I am not permanently scarred by what my H did-incredibly hurt, yes, but permanent scars on my soul? Puh-leeze. I would not allow anyone to have that much emotional sway on me. I also have my self-esteem intact. I have seen the OW in my situation and I have it much more together than her. Even in the very beginning, when I felt my very worst--I still knew I was a pretty awesome person.

 

I realize other BS's might not feel the same, but that is okay. We are all different-situations, spouses, marriages-no two are the same.

 

Anyway, please keep posting your side as a WS. You sound remorseful, contrite and as if you have learned/are learning from what happened. That is all any of us can do.

[samprez]

Bent, I would argue that you and Dex are stirred by my responses. I'm articulating a logical point of view from what you see as the illogical position. I've been saying that many people who are in my shoes understand that the intent to have hurt our spouses was likely not the driver. I found myself head deep in an affair that I regret and hate in hindsight. I covered it up to avoid hurting my wife while I went through the process of sorting out my situation. Who knows, perhaps I wanted to get caught.

 

What I'm saying is that while the person murdered is no less dead, the intent that contributed to their death is part of creating the punishment. I think that people are resiliant and with time and hard work can and do recover from even life's biggest challenges. My wife is at the beginning and frustration we are both experiencing is; well frustrating.

 

But the process is working.

 

My walk a mile comment was to suggest that we are human and suspect to failures. The result for me has been a devestating blow to my being and the knowledge that I inflicted the damage. Those who are not remorseful or changed are a different ilk.[/QUOTE]

 

 

I wish I were stirred by your responses, then I might get it. I have heard it so much, I guess I have gone tone deaf to it:pMr. Messy's favorit tune. None remorseful or changed......different to say the least

 

I'm not Mr. Messy. Read my stuff on this board.

[bentnotbroken]

 

I'm not Mr. Messy. Read my stuff on this board.

 

 

I have read your post, and I didn't mean to imply that you were anything like him. He is just my point of reference. I do believe you are sincere toward your recovery. I just think the semantics are easier to argue if you aren't on the receiving end. No disrespect intended. OOPs did I say intended:o Sorry.

[samprez]

On some very sound advice, I'm done posting on this thread. If the BS can't see what WS are people too who have to deal with and contend with results of our actions, and the ramifications of it, so be it.

 

Dexter; I believe in my heart that good people can do bad things and can recover from it. To forgive is a virtue that trumps everything else in life. We don't forgive people for them we do so for ourselves. I hope you are able to let go of your anger towards your ex-wife and move on from where I believe you are stuck. By continuing to post here you are extracting your anger and frustration on lost souls that are coming here to seek refuge from a very devestating experience for all the parties involved.

 

Confusedmom who was the instigator of this thread came here seeking help and shelter and we've created a hostile board for her. How do we ever expect anyone to move on in their lives if we can't forgive them for what they have done wrong. Anger consumes the us; and often times those it's directed towards have little time or concern to care about it.

 

No matter her transgretions she remains a mother to her children and perhaps can learn from her mistake and move on with her life. I hope she does in the best possible way and if her husband decides to stay with her; for whatever reason, it should be our honor to wish them success and luck.

 

Posting on an infidelity board to chastize and offer shallow "divorce him/her" advice to everyone who is betrayed is shortsited and speaks more to the issues of the advisor than those seeking shelter and direction.

 

When I said walk a mile in others shoes, I meant it. To be the cause of destruction is a terrible thing. There are always many victims to any crime, even those like cheating. Noone comes out unscathed. Understanding that will help shed some light.

 

We all share this planet for a short time and need to comfort anyone of us that are in pain. That includes you Dexter, because I think your pain is real and unending. I hope you find peace.

[Snowflower]

Oh, I, for one, hope you keep posting samprez even if it is not on this particular thread.

 

Your posts are well thought out, insightful and indicate a sense of humbleness.

 

I agree, we need to be kinder to one another on this board. Look, our OP on this thread has not been back likely because she was so severely "flamed." I think that is sad. The OP came to LS apparently confused, hurting and scared and received very harsh, almost cruel comments. She has not been back in some time--perhaps from the posts here or maybe she has enough to deal with IRL that she just hasn't had the opportunity to come back here...

[Dexter Morgan]

Bent, I would argue that you and Dex are stirred by my responses.

 

Possibly, as you are by ours as well.

[65tr6]

I believe in my heart that good people can do bad things and can recover from it.

for what it's worth....I am a BS and I totally agree with this statement. That is why it is so important for posters here to be very careful in what to take and what to ignore. I dont think I followed your story earlier (may be i did..not sure) but will do so now.

[Dexter Morgan]

I hope you are able to let go of your anger towards your ex-wife and move on from where I believe you are stuck.

 

anger? nah. resentment for the situation she put our children in, yes...anger? no.

 

her current man has more than enough anger for her as evidenced by the black eye he gave her.

 

 

By continuing to post here you are extracting your anger and frustration on lost souls that are coming here to seek refuge from a very devestating experience for all the parties involved.

 

So basically you are saying that your way is the only way and for me to advise someone to not have to put up with a cheater is bad advice?

 

 

Posting on an infidelity board to chastize and offer shallow "divorce him/her" advice to everyone who is betrayed is shortsited and speaks more to the issues of the advisor than those seeking shelter and direction.

 

saying that advising divorce is shallow because you happen to be in the cheater's seat doesn't make it so.

 

There are plenty of people here that tell people that have been cheated on that they can save their marriage. that is all fine and dandy. I offer the alternative view for the people that have been cheated on.

 

And I have told people that if divorce isn't in their cards what they should expect of the WS if they decide to stay.

 

 

When I said walk a mile in others shoes, I meant it.

 

And when I said I'll never walk a mile in a WS's shoes and not become a cheater....I meant it.

 

 

To be the cause of destruction is a terrible thing. There are always many victims to any crime, even those like cheating. Noone comes out unscathed. Understanding that will help shed some light.

 

Ah, so basically, if someone cheats on me, and their "intent" was not to hurt me...I should give them a 2nd chance?

 

 

We all share this planet for a short time and need to comfort anyone of us that are in pain. That includes you Dexter, because I think your pain is real and unending. I hope you find peace.

 

I found peace the day the judge pronounced me divorced. Pain? no, pain is what I'd feel if I were to have stayed with a cheater. Even if the xW would have vowed to never cheat again, and even if she made good on that promise, I'd still have to look at her on a daily basis and would be reminded of what she did.

 

Do I think about what she did from time to time now? Sure, but it doesn't hurt because she is no longer significant to me. She is someone elses problem now and he is her problem.

 

Life is good.

 

Still doesn't mean I can't try to get some people to wake up.

[desertmoon]

No, it doesn't. Because i'd venture to guess that a VERY small percentage of cheaters do so because they want to inentionally inflict damage to the spouse. They are selfish, and still, intent or not, betrayed someone in the worst way.

 

Yes, you are right-some cheaters do cheat with the intention of causing damage and pain to their SO. I never said, otherwise. All I said was that INTENT and MOTIVE are important...perhaps to understand why, or to move on or to repair the relationship.

 

Again, I don't care what the "intent" is, if someone cheats, they are history.

 

Yes, I understand you do not care and that is fine. You live your life and deal with the people in your life the way you see fit.

 

Why should intent make one iota of difference to me?

 

Why indeed? It shouldn't, if you don't want to. You are a free man- do whatever you want to do, think whatever you want to think.

[desertmoon]

Who mentioned good works????????????

 

oh ok...lol:rolleyes:...I'll play. You mentioned making amends and fixing things and changing bad behavior....are those not good works?

 

I contend that you do not need to do "good works" to be forgiven. However, as a forgiven, repentant sinner, "good works" would or should follow.

[desertmoon]

anger? nah. resentment for the situation she put our children in, yes...anger? no.

 

Perhaps, you should let go of the resentment...

 

her current man has more than enough anger for her as evidenced by the black eye he gave her.

Something to celebrate then, right?

 

 

Ah, so basically, if someone cheats on me, and their "intent" was not to hurt me...I should give them a 2nd chance?

No,not necessarily, but it might be easier to forgive and let go of the anger(which of course, you said you don't have) and/or the resentment if you know that while you are at the receiving end of the deception and betrayal, you are not so unlovable and despicable( not that you are, of course) that your spouse went out of her way to SPECIFICALLY hurt YOU...rather, XW was selfish, liar, etc...etc...

 

I found peace the day the judge pronounced me divorced. Pain? no, pain is what I'd feel if I were to have stayed with a cheater. Even if the xW would have vowed to never cheat again, and even if she made good on that promise, I'd still have to look at her on a daily basis and would be reminded of what she did.

How can you have peace and still be resentful...?

 

Life is good.

 

That, it is.

 

Still doesn't mean I can't try to get some people to wake up.

So you are on a mission? That bad, huh?