Me of All People

[RecordProducer]

I agree that repentance involves a complete u-turn...and with that u-turn the sinner must no longer do the things he/she did before that were sinful-cheating, lying, etc. But repentance is not a pre-condition to forgiveness, but rather a response to God's forgiveness.

This is a very interesting thought: that we first need to be forgiven in order to genuinely want to change. Kinda like when Jean Valjean changes his criminal personality when he receives mercy and forgiveness by the priest whom he robbed and hit.

 

Humans feel first sorry for themselves (and their children), then for others. If someone who has done something wrong is judged and scolded for it, he will be more prone to feeling the urge to defend himself and justify his actions than to feel genuinely guilty. This is part of the survival instinct; if the lioness feels bad for the anthelope, she'll never eat it and she'll starve to death.

 

The only true remorse comes when a cheater is caught; then they regret cheating and feel bad (for themselves). I think deep down, cheaters don't think they're doing something wrong. I mean, they know they are potentially hurting their spouses, but they don't feel their actions as that bad, until they realize how badly their spouses feel. This is actually comforting on a humanity level, i.e., people don't cheat because they're evil - they just don't know what they're doing. I believe that many of the mistakes made in relationships come from this emotional ignorance.

 

OP sincerely wonders why the MM's wife told her husband about the affair and ruined her marriage. The name of the thread is "Me of all people" asif she was chosen to be destroyed. And despite of all, I can't help but feel deep sympathy for her and her whole family. Many lives will change forever because of a stupid mistake that two people made. How sad.

[michelangelo]

You should say to her, "you are right, I'm not your vindicator...I'm just the poor sap that gave you a 2nd chance and has to put up with your bulls##t"

 

 

 

 

You mean she isn't wanting to make up for it? if not, why do you stay?

 

 

 

 

Did you tell her that last part? If so, what did she say.

 

and what do cheaters know about "God" anyway? as if all of a sudden "God" NOW matters.

 

It is really annoying when she does this holier than thou dance she does. She pretty much is disgusting to me.

 

Economics and my son's health and my daughter's college education has me trapped at present. It annoys me to no end that her selfishness has destroyed what should have been good. That she would willingly let me twist in teh wind even after she stopped her affair is just plain cruel and shows a lack of character and courage.

 

Self protection for sure.

 

I will leave on my own terms when I can do it. But I will not destroy my children's future for my own. My own has already been destroyed.

[jnj express]

She did not make a stupid MISTAKE, a mistake is adding 2 plus 2 and getting 5, what she did was done with intent, planning, deception, cunning, and whatever else you want to throw in, bit certainly was NOT a mistake, SHE KNEW SHE WAS GOING TO WRECK LIVES AROUND HER, she just didn't bother caring.

[michelangelo]

She did not make a stupid MISTAKE, a mistake is adding 2 plus 2 and getting 5, what she did was done with intent, planning, deception, cunning, and whatever else you want to throw in, bit certainly was NOT a mistake, SHE KNEW SHE WAS GOING TO WRECK LIVES AROUND HER, she just didn't bother caring.

 

Exactly.

 

I can't add anything to what you wrote.

[bentnotbroken]

Only if we do not ask forgiveness and repent. I believe it was Paul in his letter to the Hebrews who said that Christ died to set the sinners free from the penalty of sins..

 

I could be wrong, I am just trying to recall what I (thought I)learned in my Religion class.

 

 

Christ became the sacrifice, the cleansing blood. He became the doorway to His Father. Setting sinners free having to carry those sins permanently. He set them free from the sins(if they repented first, then asked forgiveness)being held against them on judgement day. It didn't mean that we wouldn't suffer consequences for our sins here on earth. If you rob a bank, then repent and ask God's forgiveness, he will forgive you. That doesn't mean you won't go to jail. Repentance, meaning you know that you are wrong, don't like that you are wrong, want to change the wrong behavior, and admit you are wrong.... all equal forgiveness.

 

 

It seems to me a person who has truly repented wouldn't mind facing the music. I would want to make things right with those I have hurt. I know that injured party may not want to accept my gesture, but it sure wouldn't stop me from trying.

[Dexter Morgan]

It is really annoying when she does this holier than thou dance she does. She pretty much is disgusting to me.

 

One of the reasons I always advise divorce.

 

 

Economics and my son's health and my daughter's college education has me trapped at present. It annoys me to no end that her selfishness has destroyed what should have been good.

 

I understand. Do your kids know why you are staying in the marriage and that you are unhappy? I feel for your situation and the need to make sure your kids are taken care of. You are a good father and you are putting up with a witch so that your kids can have a life. That is sacrifice. In my situation, my kids have at least 11 years before college. I save a little and can use child support that will no longer be paid to the X for their college. So I guess I'm in a different boat.

 

You do what you feel is right. Its good that they have you as a father, because their mother is sh#t.

 

 

 

That she would willingly let me twist in teh wind even after she stopped her affair is just plain cruel and shows a lack of character and courage.

 

That shows that she doesn't care about you. My guess is that she is still screwing around on you.

 

You know, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that this is no longer a marriage, and your wife doesn't care, and is probably still messing around.

I'd say your marriage is dead, I don't see any reason why you have to be a prisoner. Go out with friends. Enjoy yourself once in a while. If she doesn't like it, then too bad.

 

 

I will leave on my own terms when I can do it. But I will not destroy my children's future for my own. My own has already been destroyed.

 

If you plan on divorcing when they are of adult age and out of school...I'd stash away money little by little. Maybe only $50/month. Keep it as cash, give it to parents if possible. That way when the day comes, you will be financially ready for lawyers fees, and anything else that might happen.

 

I'd also get a lockbox at the bank in your name only and keep important documents, such as documents showing the balance of any accounts and retirement up to the day you married her. Because she isn't entitled to that.

 

Get a plan, stash money away(and not in a bank) and prepare for what you know you will do when the time comes....kicking her cold hearted ass to the curb.

[Dexter Morgan]

and again, what does this cheating, cold hearted witch know about "God"?

[samprez]

I would love to argue with some of you about the right or wrongness of this, or the concept of intent vs. mistake. But the lines have been drawn. My IC told me that he thinks people who think they are bullet proof for having affairs are as much at risk as anyone else. Life comes at you folks, and sometimes you make bad decisions that turn out to be mistakes. I could argue that 2+2=5 isn't a mistake because math is an exact science. 2+2 is always 4. But when you put two people together and put them in scenarios they weren't prepared for, throw in a little emotion and a little fog...and boom, you are off to the races.

 

This doesn't excuse Confused's behavior, but it does help explain how she may have found herself "underwater" and making really crappy choices. None of us know what God's plan is or what our result will be. And for those of us who have wondered, let me assure you that there is a price to be paid; everyday.

[Dexter Morgan]

I would love to argue with some of you about the right or wrongness of this, or the concept of intent vs. mistake.

 

What difference does "intent" make? Oh to the cheater it means something, but to the betrayed it means very little if nothing.

[bentnotbroken]

Mr. Messy told me he didn't intend to have an A. But his intents didn't diminish the pain and trauma he caused his family. The intent is of little relevance when you are watching your kids anger and pain, not to mention your own.

 

It is the same as the drunk driver who killed my cousins. He said during trial he didn't intend to kill anyone. But what do you think will happen when you drink and drive. The probability of injuring or killing someone is very high. Same thing with cheaters, what do you expect to happen when you cheat and know it is wrong?

[samprez]

Intent means that one set out to do something is a specific goal in mind. I am not here to suggest that results of my actions or other WS's didn't result in pain and suffering for the BS. That is clearly the case as we see here on Loveshack.

 

But I'm not sure that every "cheater" out here set out with the intent to either find themselves in that type of relationship or that they understood that the results would be so devestating. I know I didn't. I was totally clueless to what could happen and if you asked me during the relationship what I thought the outcome would be, I'd have told you, "I don't know." I was functioning fully at home with my wife and family and I was involved in this deeply engaging emotional relationship at the same time. I wasn't thinking rationally about what the end game would have been for any one of the 4 adults involved in this situation. In fact, I can tell you now that the MISTAKE I made was based on a series of bad decisions along the way. If you've NEVER lived my side of this, or the side of WS you can't possibly understand the addiction and the lack of clarity that is associated with this.

 

When I read posts on LS that blast the WS; without understanding, the "cheaters" I get defensive because there really is confusion, pain and poor decision making happening. This isn't always about deciding between right and wrong. Many people will tell you that they thought they had found a soulmate or a connection with the partner. Having been there, I was amazed at how my MW and were so connected. Lost is a good word to describe any solid decision making.

 

So intent. Hmmm. Hard pressed to assume that this is a fair way to describe the result. Using the drunk driver example. I highly doubt that many drunk drivers intended to get drunk and get in an accident. They may have decided to get drunk, but the act of causing a death wasn't likely their goal. The results remain the same.

 

I think her title her of, "Me of All People" was in reference to her own disbelief that she was in this situation. Anyone who has been the WS can tell you that they likely had this discussion with their partner, "Can you believe we're doing this? Us of all people? We must be soulmates and this is real because I would NEVER do this with just anyone."

 

The entire realm of betrayal sucks. I'm dying on so many levels which is why I keep drifting back to this board. Disappointing people you really love is the worst thing in the world you can do. Remorse and regret rule the day for me and I am having a hard time, but I will not look at any of this in a black and white way. We are not robots making binary decisions, we are people with faults and we f*ck up from time to time.

 

I'm sorry that the BS's are injured, the WS are too.

[Darth Vader]

Exactly.

 

I can't add anything to what you wrote.

 

 

Just becareful, your STB_Hex-, I mean Ex, might all of a sudden grow some feeling and want to save the marriage, OK, Yeah right:rolleyes:, after all this time letting you suffer, I think not. Anyway, she may still try, but to me that wouldn't be real, so I'm assuming that you won't want to try to save the marriage, I mean when the children are gone that is....... I suspect that you're already gone from the sounds of it, better make sure she never finds this site...............

[desertmoon]

Intent and motive make a LOT of difference--it draws the line between being evil and being fallible. Granted the outcome may be the same, still if you believe in justice, INTENT and MOTIVE will be considered.

 

That is why when someone is killed there is such thing as murder one or manslaughter and some other choices.

 

We can all argue how it makes no difference what the WS's "intent' was for cheating....in the end, if you believe in God, only He knows.

 

Same goes to telling the children about the "truth" why the parents divorce, or the need for OMs/OWs to tell BSs about their WS's affairs---intent and motive is important. Is it for THEIR benefit? or is it for YOUR benefit---what is your bottomline?

[desertmoon]

... Repentance, meaning you know that you are wrong, don't like that you are wrong, want to change the wrong behavior, and admit you are wrong.... all equal forgiveness.

 

No, it does not equal forgiveness. Forgiveness is not dependent upon any good work.

 

It seems to me a person who has truly repented wouldn't mind facing the music. I would want to make things right with those I have hurt. I know that injured party may not want to accept my gesture, but it sure wouldn't stop me from trying.

 

I agree. But not because one is trying to gain forgiveness from God, but because as a truly repentant person-a changed person-one's life should reflect the virtues that are fundamental in one's faith ( in this case, Christianity).

[jwi71]

Cheaters ALWAYS INTEND to cheat. To claim otherwise is to suggest they were walking along and accidentally had sex with someone. Ludicrous. Or very lucky.

 

I will agree that the A doesn't always/usually begin with a WS waking up a saying "How can I betray my BS today"? Except that is exactly what it becomes. At some point you DO wake up and think of how you'll concoct a lie to further betray your spouse. And you can explain or excuse everything away except that you DID plan and intend to betray your spouse.

 

Motives? All cheaters have their reasons why. Maybe to end the M, to feel alive, revenge...who knows. And all these motives are little more than excuses. Because the WS ALWAYS had/has the option to work on and/or end the M. But intentionally choose otherwise.

[samprez]

Cheaters ALWAYS INTEND to cheat. To claim otherwise is to suggest they were walking along and accidentally had sex with someone. Ludicrous. Or very lucky.

 

I will agree that the A doesn't always/usually begin with a WS waking up a saying "How can I betray my BS today"? Except that is exactly what it becomes. At some point you DO wake up and think of how you'll concoct a lie to further betray your spouse. And you can explain or excuse everything away except that you DID plan and intend to betray your spouse.

 

Motives? All cheaters have their reasons why. Maybe to end the M, to feel alive, revenge...who knows. And all these motives are little more than excuses. Because the WS ALWAYS had/has the option to work on and/or end the M. But intentionally choose otherwise.

 

JW. I believe you are confusing the result with the start. Your "reasons" comment is off base. I think to generalize this subject is dangerous. I had no motive because motives imply intent again. I will tell you that when I got involved, I did NOT KNOW WHAT THE HELL I WAS DOING. I agree that once underwater I made decisions to keep it that way. But it's difficult to surface after you've made that fatal last step into hell. As my therapist has said; even people in good marriages can end up in affairs." This is not an exact science and as a WS I will share with you that the confusion and disorientation is not excuse making, it's real.

 

In MC I was telling my W and the counselor that to think of the A as a bubble and all of the actions within the bubble are contained to the A. Make sense? We all practice selling ourselves on what we're doing is ok because it's a natural human response to justify any action any of us take.

 

Owning and being accountable after the fact is part of the healing process.

[Dexter Morgan]

Intent means that one set out to do something is a specific goal in mind. I am not here to suggest that results of my actions or other WS's didn't result in pain and suffering for the BS. That is clearly the case as we see here on Loveshack.

 

But I'm not sure that every "cheater" out here set out with the intent to either find themselves in that type of relationship or that they understood that the results would be so devestating.

 

Again, I don't care what the "intent" was....the only thing that matters is that it DID happen.

 

 

 

When I read posts on LS that blast the WS; without understanding

 

Why should a BS "understand"? You think that a WS deserves pity and for a BS to say, "oh, I understand...its ok....now excuse me, I'm going to go throw up".

 

 

 

This isn't always about deciding between right and wrong. Many people will tell you that they thought they had found a soulmate or a connection with the partner. Having been there, I was amazed at how my MW and were so connected.

 

ok...you go through all this about mistakes and poor decisions...then come back to how amazing the connection is between you and the MW.

 

almost as if you are saying you made poor choices, but it was worth it...or that you were justified in making those decisions because of how great you connected with MW.

 

 

So intent. Hmmm. Hard pressed to assume that this is a fair way to describe the result. Using the drunk driver example. I highly doubt that many drunk drivers intended to get drunk and get in an accident. They may have decided to get drunk, but the act of causing a death wasn't likely their goal. The results remain the same.

 

 

And the drunk driver most of the time goes to prison or at very least loses their license.

[Dexter Morgan]

Intent and motive make a LOT of difference

 

No, it doesn't. Because i'd venture to guess that a VERY small percentage of cheaters do so because they want to inentionally inflict damage to the spouse. They are selfish, and still, intent or not, betrayed someone in the worst way.

 

Again, I don't care what the "intent" is, if someone cheats, they are history.

 

Why should intent make one iota of difference to me?

[samprez]

Dexter. It must be very nice for you to live in a black and white world. You think people who are WS don't suffer? Do you think that life is peachy for us? You think there isn't a price to be paid? I don't go one minute a day without dealing with this issue at some level so don't sell yourself on the fact that there isn't some punishment being dolted out. You've sold yourself on the fact that the punishment you think is deserved is the only one that makes sense. Well you ARE WRONG.

 

I have read a ton of your posts and I still contend that your simplistic view to this issue doesn't resolve problems or issues, it just provides you with an easy way to point a finger and determine what is the proper result.

 

Intent and motive and result do matter.

[bentnotbroken]

No, it does not equal forgiveness. Forgiveness is not dependent upon any good work.

 

 

 

I agree. But not because one is trying to gain forgiveness from God, but because as a truly repentant person-a changed person-one's life should reflect the virtues that are fundamental in one's faith ( in this case, Christianity).

 

 

Who mentioned good works????????????

[samprez]

No, it doesn't. Because i'd venture to guess that a VERY small percentage of cheaters do so because they want to inentionally inflict damage to the spouse. They are selfish, and still, intent or not, betrayed someone in the worst way.

 

Again, I don't care what the "intent" is, if someone cheats, they are history.

 

Why should intent make one iota of difference to me?

 

Why should you project your situation and feelings on every other case of infidelity? Who are you to judge any and all situations? Intent matters a great deal. Remorse often comes as a result of realization of the ramifications of ones actions. I feel you are way off in your universal judgemental ways.

 

Intent is not only a discussion point, it has relevance in legal matters and it's a real part of the determination of how at BS may look at their unique situation.

 

Why don't you ask people like me real questions like how we cope day to day and deal with the guilt and the shame. How we have a hard time looking people in their eyes.

 

It's not about just handing out divorce papers and making it all better. Look, you went through a divorce and look at your anger. How have you dealt with it day to day?

[Dexter Morgan]

Dexter. It must be very nice for you to live in a black and white world. You think people who are WS don't suffer? Do you think that life is peachy for us? You think there isn't a price to be paid?

 

oh, and what price is that? Guilt? puuulease. Even if thats the case, big deal. Knowing that someone has cheated on me feels guilt doesn't do it for me.

 

 

I don't go one minute a day without dealing with this issue at some level so don't sell yourself on the fact that there isn't some punishment being dolted out. You've sold yourself on the fact that the punishment you think is deserved is the only one that makes sense. Well you ARE WRONG.

 

What you think just punishment is and what the person betrayed thinks just punishment is, more than likely are two different things.

 

Like I said, knowing that someone betrayed me feels guilty doesn't do it for me. They need to lose some priveliges. But then again, I won't be with someone that has cheated.

 

 

I have read a ton of your posts and I still contend that your simplistic view to this issue doesn't resolve problems or issues, it just provides you with an easy way to point a finger and determine what is the proper result.

 

My simplistic view is there is no good reason to stay with a cheater. I am no longer with mine, therefore she is no longer my problem but someone elses now and he is hers.

 

Problem resolved on my end. Her problems or issues aren't mine to have to put up with.

 

 

Intent and motive and result do matter.

 

maybe to you as a cheater.

[lkjh]

JW. I believe you are confusing the result with the start. Your "reasons" comment is off base. I think to generalize this subject is dangerous. I had no motive because motives imply intent again. I will tell you that when I got involved, I did NOT KNOW WHAT THE HELL I WAS DOING. I agree that once underwater I made decisions to keep it that way. But it's difficult to surface after you've made that fatal last step into hell. As my therapist has said; even people in good marriages can end up in affairs." This is not an exact science and as a WS I will share with you that the confusion and disorientation is not excuse making, it's real.

 

In MC I was telling my W and the counselor that to think of the A as a bubble and all of the actions within the bubble are contained to the A. Make sense? We all practice selling ourselves on what we're doing is ok because it's a natural human response to justify any action any of us take.

 

Owning and being accountable after the fact is part of the healing process.

 

 

I don't want to get involved in this debate but come on. How can you possibly say you didn't "intend" to cheat. It's not like you went to the OW's house innocently and it just happened. People flirt and then hook up. There are many check points were cheaters can stop it but they don't because they are enjoying it. Don't shift your blame by claiming you had no control over this. You are a grown man not a helpless child. Things don't just happen. Take responsibility. Humans have the ability think and rationalize. You knew what you were and you thought you could get away with it. Trying to convince people that you had no control will not change the fact that it happened.

[Dexter Morgan]

Why should you project your situation and feelings on every other case of infidelity?

 

Uh, in case you haven't noticed...thats what people do here. Yourself included.

 

 

Who are you to judge any and all situations?

 

Who am I to judge? As someone who has never cheated, and never slept with someone elses wife, I think I am entitled.

 

Everyone judges, even you. dont even try to say you don't.

 

 

Intent matters a great deal.

 

again, for you as a cheater, sure.

 

 

Remorse often comes as a result of realization of the ramifications of ones actions. I feel you are way off in your universal judgemental ways.

 

Of course you feel I am way off....you are a cheater. You are the opposite of me.

 

 

Intent is not only a discussion point, it has relevance in legal matters and it's a real part of the determination of how at BS may look at their unique situation.

 

are you talking about intent with cheating and legal matters? If so, no, intent doesn't matter to the judge. cheating has no legal bearing with regards to divorce, or any other legal matter...intent or not.

 

 

 

It's not about just handing out divorce papers and making it all better.

 

I didn't know "making it all better", no matter how its achieved, was undesirable...?

 

 

Look, you went through a divorce and look at your anger. How have you dealt with it day to day?

 

by trying to get other people to see that life with a cheater is no life at all.

 

Whether they want to get rid of their cheater is up to them. Everyone has their own way of coping with what was done to them. Everyone here states their opinon and it is up to the betrayed to choose for themselves. Which is why I always tell a BS that chooses to stay, that I think there is a better life out there for them, but if they choose to stay with their cheater, then good luck with that and my sympathies lie with them.

[Athena]

Dexter. It must be very nice for you to live in a black and white world. You think people who are WS don't suffer? Do you think that life is peachy for us? You think there isn't a price to be paid? I don't go one minute a day without dealing with this issue at some level so don't sell yourself on the fact that there isn't some punishment being dolted out. You've sold yourself on the fact that the punishment you think is deserved is the only one that makes sense. Well you ARE WRONG.

 

I have read a ton of your posts and I still contend that your simplistic view to this issue doesn't resolve problems or issues, it just provides you with an easy way to point a finger and determine what is the proper result.

 

Intent and motive and result do matter.

 

Perhaps Dexter's so-called black and white view of the world is EXACTLY what enables him to always do the right thing and NOT cheat, no matter what... whereas WS's who don't have the black and white view find themselves in messy situations because their boundaries are not very firm.