Die Hard Posted March 25, 2009 Posted March 25, 2009 Why is it so important to you that I change my mind? It's not going to change. I don't need to change it, as you don't need to change your perspective. And yes, upfront, I would reject a man with a 1" pecker. At least this would be something done previous to investment. Once you're down the road to investment, it gets more hurtful to be rejected. You can thank your lucky stars that you found out someone felt this way, before going any further.Jesus Trial, I've been here long enough to know you're not going to change your mind. That's not my point at all. I'm trying to show that a man making a physical judgment regarding a woman does not make him a bad man, or one not worth dating, or not worth having sex with, or even marrying him. remember, you said this: So Scarlett, now you know who to sleep with on LS, and who not to. Besides, you did admit I was right. You would reject a man based on penis size. That's all that needs be said. If I said I'd reject a woman once I got her naked, and found her breasts to be much smaller than previous thought, I'd get flamed. And don't give me the "penis size equates to your "ultimate pleasure" because what can be seen as a dealbreaker physically for a guy is the same. You cannot get pleasure from a small penis. Okay. Maybe I cannot get pleasure from cellulite covered legs. I go back to the beginning of this thread, and the question asked, then read some of the ladies responses and I see a double standard for men who judge vs. the reality that women do the same thing. That's my point, not to try and change anyone's mind.
Trialbyfire Posted March 25, 2009 Posted March 25, 2009 Jesus Trial, I've been here long enough to know you're not going to change your mind. That's not my point at all. I'm trying to show that a man making a physical judgment regarding a woman does not make him a bad man, or one not worth dating, or not worth having sex with, or even marrying him. remember, you said this: Besides, you did admit I was right. You would reject a man based on penis size. That's all that needs be said. If I said I'd reject a woman once I got her naked, and found her breasts to be much smaller than previous thought, I'd get flamed. And don't give me the "penis size equates to your "ultimate pleasure" because what can be seen as a dealbreaker physically for a guy is the same. You cannot get pleasure from a small penis. Okay. Maybe I cannot get pleasure from cellulite covered legs. I go back to the beginning of this thread, and the question asked, then read some of the ladies responses and I see a double standard for men who judge vs. the reality that women do the same thing. That's my point, not to try and change anyone's mind. You're equating apples to oranges. Firstly, as previously stated, I don't sleep with people I'm not invested in, which means I've gotten to know them very, very well and they've hit the important criterias and some of the not so important criterias. Not once have I stated that upfront criterias are a horrible thing to have. If anything, people should have more of them before getting involved. Perhaps it would lesson the number of people getting their hearts ripped out. Also, my point in this entire discussion, is that men who judge women upon stripping down for the first time, aren't invested or fully invested. I will state once again, that a man who does this, isn't someone I would consider for mate material. He's got to be all in and view me as a package. You've stated that you will sleep with women previous to investment and that you do judge, therefore, you've only served to emphasize my point, that you're not invested.
Die Hard Posted March 25, 2009 Posted March 25, 2009 Also, my point in this entire discussion, is that men who judge women upon stripping down for the first time, aren't invested or fully invested. I will state once again, that a man who does this, isn't someone I would consider for mate material. He's got to be all in and view me as a package. You've stated that you will sleep with women previous to investment and that you do judge, therefore, you've only served to emphasize my point, that you're not invested.I'm not understanding you. Either I'm simply ignorant of what you're trying to say, or it's a male/female perspective thing. But yeah we'll just have to agree to disagree. My opinion is that just because a guy notices/judges physical flaws upon a woman stripping down the first time does not in any way equate to how good a person they are, or whether they are good dating/mate material or even predict how invested they are. I was sooooooo in love with a married woman I was seeing and yet I still noticed her cellulite the first time. Still loved her with all my heart and I loved the cute little dimples on her legs. But I still noticed it but the fact that I noticed and judged her flaws didn't in any way define my investment in her. Wish it would have though.
redfathom Posted March 25, 2009 Posted March 25, 2009 It's like Bridget Jones Diary and Mr. Darcy saying he liked Bridget just the was she was. If I was standing naked in front of my husband and I asked him if he thought I was perfect with no flaws and he said yes, I would call him a liar. But if he said I had x flaws but that he still loved me, well, I would believe that. We all strive to perfect the vision we have of ourselvs, but that doesn't mean we will be perfect in everyones eyes. Like when Bridget tells her friends what Mr. Darcy says they all reply with an "insult" to her: "you mean not with , bigger breasts, a smaller nose, etc."
PinkKittyKat Posted March 25, 2009 Posted March 25, 2009 I'm not understanding you. Either I'm simply ignorant of what you're trying to say, or it's a male/female perspective thing. But yeah we'll just have to agree to disagree. My opinion is that just because a guy notices/judges physical flaws upon a woman stripping down the first time does not in any way equate to how good a person they are, or whether they are good dating/mate material or even predict how invested they are. I was sooooooo in love with a married woman I was seeing and yet I still noticed her cellulite the first time. Still loved her with all my heart and I loved the cute little dimples on her legs. But I still noticed it but the fact that I noticed and judged her flaws didn't in any way define my investment in her. Wish it would have though. Then why do you classify it as a flaw if you liked it? Why are you calling it a flaw, a problem, something that is bad?
Die Hard Posted March 25, 2009 Posted March 25, 2009 Then why do you classify it as a flaw if you liked it? Why are you calling it a flaw, a problem, something that is bad?Because I loved her man. In a perfect world I'd have eliminated the cellulite, but it was HER cellulite, so it didn't matter, and we don't live in a perfect world either. Cellulite is a physical flaw. I'm not going to sit here and pretend it's not.
Jersey Shortie Posted March 25, 2009 Posted March 25, 2009 I think back upon the women I've loved in my life and, regardless of where those emotions took me, the ladies all have been beautiful in my eyes. IMO, real, true beauty *is* in the details, in those little 'imperfections' which make us unique and special I know you did answer this previously but this time I will ask God.."God why oh why can't more men be like this!" Mr. dream merchant: The worst is when they say they want a man. What is a man? Men come in all shapes, forms and sizes. Its as stereotypical as me telling you I want a real woman. What is a real woman? What you want doesn't define that sex, it defines what YOU want. The gender man wasn't based off of one specific female's needs. I would agree with that. I agree and reading these things about "real men" etc.., makes it just as hard to hang out here as women reading that men actually notice a woman's body. The responses in this thread pretty much spell it out. If we as men notice flaws, we're flawed men. Cannot be possible that we notice flaws and simply accept them. It's not really that as it is that if you as men notice our flaws then we aren't good enough for you. We want to be thought of as beautiful even if we have flaws because the message to women is that we should be flawless. between TBF and Isolde's conversation is like watching two shrewd englishmen talk about fiscal policy with their ivory pipes in hand. "yesh yesh i shee.." Cute.
gd26 Posted March 25, 2009 Posted March 25, 2009 Then why do you classify it as a flaw if you liked it? Why are you calling it a flaw, a problem, something that is bad? As a woman, I can still relate to this. I remember some years ago, I had strong feelings for a man who was a bit of the 'nerdy' type. There were little things about him that were not particularly 'sexy' and which somewhat exasperated me at the time.... like the way his shoelaces always came untied when we were walking together and he would be stepping on them, or the way he'd insist on parting his hair deeply to the side to look like a middle aged person (even though he knew it drove me crazy, as we were in our 20s). However, looking back and remember how fond of him I was, I find these little things to be somewhat endearing. I remember his crooked teeth, and even his small body (he was only 5'7" and about 135 pounds). He was definitely not my ideal image of 'sexy' (as that would be more closer to 6'0" and 185 pounds). However, in my eyes, even though he wasn't some idealized image, he was still incredibly precious to me. Even though we never went as far as to have sex, we did have our intimate moments, and I still think of how much I enjoyed being with his slender body... it was small, but the musculature was just perfect. So not everything about the person we love has to match our idealized image of what is 'sexy' but even their so-called 'imperfections' can still be very nice and absolutely endearing. I hope my future husband likes my 'cute little dimples' on my legs as well.
Ruby Slippers Posted March 25, 2009 Posted March 25, 2009 While I can have my insecure moments, like most other women, I am never insecure about showing my naked body to a man I'm into. I have never felt judged harshly about it, even if I could have done without an extra 5 or 10 pounds at the time. If anything, I've always assumed he's thinking something like: "NAKED WOMAN. About to have sex. YES!" In fact, in my last relationship, I let my tummy get a little soft during the winter, but whatever -- I knew when it warmed up and I got more active, it'd flatten out again. My boyfriend loved to spoon me and put his hand on my stomach and rub it. He once said, "I love that you always let me touch your stomach. I've never had a girlfriend who would let me do that." He said they would always whine, complain about their stomach, and wiggle away. He said he loved that I wasn't self-conscious and I would let him touch me anywhere. So, for all I know, he might have been thinking my stomach was a little softer than some other girls', but that didn't seem to be what he cared about. What he noticed was that I accepted myself as I was and didn't project insecurity.
GorillaTheater Posted March 25, 2009 Posted March 25, 2009 I've always assumed he's thinking something like: "NAKED WOMAN. About to have sex. YES!" Remarkably astute assumption.
Phateless Posted March 25, 2009 Posted March 25, 2009 In all honesty, please: Are you comparing her to the other women you've been with? Are you judging her or rating her? How much do you notice her flaws? I'm not really comparing so much as getting used to you. I really don't notice flaws and don't judge or rate, really. Honestly, it's pure excitement. I'm excited to experience you for the first time and to see what it feels like, mentally, emotionally, and physically. I notice attributes first, and flaws I'm really not worried about. I'm just happy to be naked with you and hoping I can show you a good time. I want to make sure that I please you and that you have a good experience. That's what goes through my head.
Ruby Slippers Posted March 25, 2009 Posted March 25, 2009 Honestly, it's pure excitement. I'm excited to experience you for the first time and to see what it feels like, mentally, emotionally, and physically. I notice attributes first, and flaws I'm really not worried about. I'm just happy to be naked with you and hoping I can show you a good time. I want to make sure that I please you and that you have a good experience. That's what goes through my head. You are THE best kind of guy to get naked with.
bayouboi Posted March 25, 2009 Posted March 25, 2009 If anything, I've always assumed he's thinking something like: "NAKED WOMAN. About to have sex. YES!" You would be correct!
Phateless Posted March 25, 2009 Posted March 25, 2009 You are THE best kind of guy to get naked with. Heheh, that is the nicest thing anyone has said to me all day! And your attitude is the best kind of girl to get naked with.
Die Hard Posted March 25, 2009 Posted March 25, 2009 I've got my eye on you In other news, after getting the Heimlich after turning blue and stopping breathing and being sent to the hospital, my mom appears to be back to her normal yelling self, as evidenced by the background noise when the nurse called me to find out what the yelling was about. I could feel myself smile, empathizing with the nurses predicament, and told her which med she needed to get to make the yelling stop. Topically, this thread and my experience last night made me think about when I had to start bathing her a few years ago and remembering how remarkably well-preserved she was for an 80+ year old woman. I recall she always took real good care of her skin and exercised regularly. IMO, people are making way too much out of what is a natural process, that being life. I think back upon the women I've loved in my life and, regardless of where those emotions took me, the ladies all have been beautiful in my eyes. IMO, real, true beauty *is* in the details, in those little 'imperfections' which make us unique and special. Apologies for the minor oedipal TJ, but it was on my mind. Carry on Almost forgot this post. Just wanted to say I hope all is well and continues to be well with your mom. My dad is gone so I take a lot of responsibility with my mom too. Mine got a bacterial infection a few years ago and for reasons I won't go into, her heart stopped. I performed CPR and brought her back. :) Now, not only do I still have my mom, when she says "I gave birth to you" I say, "well, I saved your life, we're even.:D" in all seriousness though I hope all is well.
PinkKittyKat Posted March 25, 2009 Posted March 25, 2009 Because I loved her man. In a perfect world I'd have eliminated the cellulite, but it was HER cellulite, so it didn't matter, and we don't live in a perfect world either. Cellulite is a physical flaw. I'm not going to sit here and pretend it's not. See, no one likes this. Don't pretend you're so great because you're honest about being judgemental. You loved her "IN SPITE" of her cellulite that you viewed as a flaw. And in a perfect world you'd modify her body to look "better" for you. I do not view my fiancé's belly as a flaw. I like it. I love feeling it against me, the softness of him. I dislike the look AND feel of lumpy hard abs, and I find his body type INSANELY attractive. He, on the other hand, views it as a flaw. He wouldn't even let me TOUCH his stomach at first. I still don't think he believes me when I say I actively LIKE it. So a bunch of other people have decided it's classified as a flaw. So ****ing what? He once asked me if I could change it, would I. I honestly answered no. He talks about working out and getting rid of it sometimes, and I get sort of pouty... I try to be supportive. I know HE'D feel better about it if he had rock hard lumpy abs of steel, but he just wouldn't turn me on as much. Now, if he had rock hard lumpy abs of steel, THEN I'd be forced to love him "in spite of" them.
Die Hard Posted March 25, 2009 Posted March 25, 2009 See, no one likes this. Don't pretend you're so great because you're honest about being judgemental. You loved her "IN SPITE" of her cellulite that you viewed as a flaw. And in a perfect world you'd modify her body to look "better" for you. I do not view my fiancé's belly as a flaw. I like it. I love feeling it against me, the softness of him. I dislike the look AND feel of lumpy hard abs, and I find his body type INSANELY attractive. He, on the other hand, views it as a flaw. He wouldn't even let me TOUCH his stomach at first. I still don't think he believes me when I say I actively LIKE it. So a bunch of other people have decided it's classified as a flaw. So ****ing what? He once asked me if I could change it, would I. I honestly answered no. He talks about working out and getting rid of it sometimes, and I get sort of pouty... I try to be supportive. I know HE'D feel better about it if he had rock hard lumpy abs of steel, but he just wouldn't turn me on as much. Now, if he had rock hard lumpy abs of steel, THEN I'd be forced to love him "in spite of" them.Geez:D when did I pretend I was so great!? Trust me man, I've got my own issues that make me not so great. Though, isn't loving her despite the cellulite enough? It's not like I walked around thinking "you're lucky I'm with you since you have cellulite." In fact, I felt lucky to be with her when I could. I loved her, it simply didn't matter or define my investment in her, or make me care any less for her. I will admit if god himself came down and asked if I wanted to eliminate it I'd say "sure, why the heck not?" I'd change lots of stuff about my own body if I could. I highly suspect that the girl in question would have eliminated the flaw too, if she could. She was WAAAY more judgmental regarding her cellulite than I EVER was. As far as she knew, I never even noticed it. That's what I told her when she'd bring it up. I thought this thread I should be for honest thoughts. It's not that hard since it's the internet and I'm anonymous, so no I don't think I'm great for it.
Die Hard Posted March 25, 2009 Posted March 25, 2009 One more thought for this thread then I'll stop. If any of you want to think I'm an ass for noticing cellulite, even on a woman I care a LOT for, then that's your choice. I cannot help where my eyes go and what thoughts pop in my head. I can only control what I do with those thoughts once they come.
redfathom Posted March 25, 2009 Posted March 25, 2009 Die Hard, I think what you said was honest and sincere and you really cared for this woman. It's naive to think that people won't notice flaws, I mean we sit around judging people all day long. And yes, cellulite isn't attractive, and most woman no matter their size has some. If we think it's a "flaw" we can't expect our men to not also think of it this way.
Die Hard Posted March 25, 2009 Posted March 25, 2009 Cellulite is nastay!No man, it's a beautiful feature of beautiful women. ALL women and men are beautiful and don't have flaws, and noone sees them even if they existed.
Die Hard Posted March 25, 2009 Posted March 25, 2009 Die Hard, I think what you said was honest and sincere and you really cared for this woman. It's naive to think that people won't notice flaws, I mean we sit around judging people all day long. And yes, cellulite isn't attractive, and most woman no matter their size has some. If we think it's a "flaw" we can't expect our men to not also think of it this way.I appreciate that. I Just hope none of the women reading this thread get hung up on it though. It's not that big a deal. I'd take cellulite over a complete bitch an day.
You'reasian Posted March 25, 2009 Posted March 25, 2009 JS, I have a theory about jaded and not jaded. For the volumized people, they seek the thrill of sex v. sex as a form of bonding between two people who honestly care about each other as an entirety. With this in mind, of course the product and product mechanisms (acts of sex) are analyzed and compared. If the greater thrill isn't there, they're going to move onto someone who will provide the greater thrill. It can turn into the neverending quest for a more exotic type of act or better body, since that's all that matters. You can equate it to the enjoyment of food. The more range and type of food you've been exposed to, the less you eat to fill your stomach and the greater range of cuisines you seek, the exotic and time intensive, the better. "Volumized people"...hey, nothing wrong with being a little overweight tee hee You bring up a good point about exotic selection versus quantity. Obviously you are a mature, educated woman and I salute you. Now let's talk about how to make tidal waves
redfathom Posted March 25, 2009 Posted March 25, 2009 I have a ghetto booty, my H loves it and so do other men...I have been told I have a nice butt by several men (none of which I was in a relationship with). Unfortuantly because I have a big butt I also have some cellulite around that area, but it comes with the territory. Luckily I don't obssess over it. I guess I could spend loads of time exercising to firm it up, using expensive creams, or getting surgery done to make it perfect, but I will settle with it just being awesome.
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