Infidelity and Violence

[Reggie]

65, just wanted to clarify that I do not think ALL marriages are doomed after infidelity, just the majority. I think so much depends on the WS's willingness to accept responsibility and to work on both fixing the marriage(the A issues as well as the invariable pre-A issues) and fixing what is broken within him/her that caused the susceptibility.

I agree with Dex, clearly, despite the claims by those who have cheated that anyone is capable of this, there are many folks that simply are not going to cheat, no matter what.

So, Owl may feel more comfortable with his wife and her track record and the lessons she has learned. But, others may want to try with someone else that has not demonstrated this propensity. Hopefully, after their exposure to cheating, a BS can be more discerning in the selection process.

Personally, I was just as blindsided in my second marriage as I was by the infidelity in my first.

While I do believe there are folks that won't cheat, ever, I now realize that the inclination is way more prevalent than I ever would have beleived. The stats are pretty staggering on the prevalence.

I know i would never, ever consider marrying again due to this. I just don't have the tools to see this propensity in others.

[Reggie]

Owl, here's the part that mystifies me: how could a person live to adulthood without understanding that gradually becoming involved romantically with a person other than one's spouse is wrong? I mean,this is not rocket science. It is pretty basic. How does someone reach adulthood and not understand this very simple boundary? That is incomprehensible to me.

[Owl]

You know Dex...I can completely and totally see why you'd think that I could do better. Your own experience was that there was no way that you could have possibly seen a life with your wife after what she'd done. And leaving her worked out well for you.

 

So it's darned hard to imagine anyone else could do so in a similar situation.

 

I can understand why you'd feel that I could do better. I've just been on the other side of the coin...and my experience worked out well for me.

 

And to wrap this back on topic for the thread...in the beginning I was angry at both my wife and at OM. But I loved my wife...so forgiving her was far easier than forgiving him was (at the time). Ergo, he bore the brunt of my anger for a long time...until I did manage to calm down, think things through, and see it from all three perspectives...and ultimately I was able to forgive them both. Making me darned glad that I didn't give in to my initial rage and do something permanent.

[BladeRunner]

I just read this thread all the way through. I think that some people don't understand that inside many of us (and maybe all of us) there lurks a heart of darkness - a true potential for primitive, savage violence.

 

Fortunately, it is balanced and controlled by our higher mental processes that give us reason and logic, sometimes even wisdom.

 

The law recognizes crimes of passion and distinguishes them from "cold-blooded" crimes. Both are punished but they are treated differently.

 

Psychologists say that under certain circumstances emotional flooding causes the higher mental processes to be shut down with the "lizard brain" taking over.

 

So I think it's perfectly normal to think those bad thoughts about the OM but that it's never good or right or productive or helpful-to-anyone to act on them.

[pelicanpreacher]

I just read this thread all the way through. I think that some people don't understand that inside many of us (and maybe all of us) there lurks a heart of darkness - a true potential for primitive, savage violence.

 

Fortunately, it is balanced and controlled by our higher mental processes that give us reason and logic, sometimes even wisdom.

 

The law recognizes crimes of passion and distinguishes them from "cold-blooded" crimes. Both are punished but they are treated differently.

 

Psychologists say that under certain circumstances emotional flooding causes the higher mental processes to be shut down with the "lizard brain" taking over.

 

So I think it's perfectly normal to think those bad thoughts about the OM but that it's never good or right or productive or helpful-to-anyone to act on them.

 

And here be another soul to unravel the mystery of the Sphynx!

[Reggie]

I just read this thread all the way through. I think that some people don't understand that inside many of us (and maybe all of us) there lurks a heart of darkness - a true potential for primitive, savage violence.

 

Fortunately, it is balanced and controlled by our higher mental processes that give us reason and logic, sometimes even wisdom.

 

The law recognizes crimes of passion and distinguishes them from "cold-blooded" crimes. Both are punished but they are treated differently.

 

Psychologists say that under certain circumstances emotional flooding causes the higher mental processes to be shut down with the "lizard brain" taking over.

 

So I think it's perfectly normal to think those bad thoughts about the OM but that it's never good or right or productive or helpful-to-anyone to act on them.

 

I totally agree. There is aboslutely nothing wrong or abnormal with having these thoughts but not acting on them.

[LakesideDream]

I just read this thread all the way through. I think that some people don't understand that inside many of us (and maybe all of us) there lurks a heart of darkness - a true potential for primitive, savage violence.

 

Fortunately, it is balanced and controlled by our higher mental processes that give us reason and logic, sometimes even wisdom.

 

The law recognizes crimes of passion and distinguishes them from "cold-blooded" crimes. Both are punished but they are treated differently.

 

Psychologists say that under certain circumstances emotional flooding causes the higher mental processes to be shut down with the "lizard brain" taking over.

 

So I think it's perfectly normal to think those bad thoughts about the OM but that it's never good or right or productive or helpful-to-anyone to act on them.

 

Blade, Most people, not all have the potential for physical violence. Very few people have had any training of any kind to help them process that potential.

 

I touched on this earlier on this earlier in this thread, back five or six pages. Our society (USA, UK, other nations I don't know about) is going to great lengths to socialize it's members and insulate them from violence. Other than those that actually voulenteer for Military or Police service its very difficult to find an appropriate venue to learn to vent violent urges (martial arts training?). Still, situations arise where voilence is an appropriate response. What happens then?

 

Worse still situations arise where violence isn't appropriate but the affected person is to filled with emotional damage, and those nasty endorphines and adrenelin overcome their weak prohibitions against a violent response. I suspect this is the fork in the road where Mrs. Harris failed her test.

 

I fear that the current economic situation is going to excalate this problem markedly. Modern history agrees with me as well. I fear this will begin to happen more and more as normally reasonable people are put into situations they are not prepared for. Yesterday a fired computer tech went on a rampage and croaked 14 people. Why? Maybe an answer will surface. Most likely it would not have happened if he was worried about getting to work the next morning instead of cleaning and loading his weapons.

 

As a largely unarmed society people suffering psycotic breaks will be able to slaughter groups of civilians as they will. A side note on that incident, it took the "police" over an hour to enter the building after the insane perpetrator had croaked himself. The police, who make under 100K a year were not willing to put their saftey in jepordy to "serve and protect" civilians. Kinda curious to me. Grunts in Iraq put their lives on the line 24/7 for $1,500 a month and half an education (maybe). But that's a digression.

 

Expect more violence in the coming days friends, not less. Our society has not felt the level of stress that's on the horizon. Many people will take the wrong fork in the road.

[blueintheface]

Owl, here's the part that mystifies me: how could a person live to adulthood without understanding that gradually becoming involved romantically with a person other than one's spouse is wrong? I mean,this is not rocket science. It is pretty basic. How does someone reach adulthood and not understand this very simple boundary? That is incomprehensible to me.

 

Television.

[tami-chan]

Owl, here's the part that mystifies me: how could a person live to adulthood without understanding that gradually becoming involved romantically with a person other than one's spouse is wrong? I mean,this is not rocket science. It is pretty basic. How does someone reach adulthood and not understand this very simple boundary? That is incomprehensible to me.

 

 

Perhaps because this is not about "adulthood" or being mature. Countless brilliant men and women have affairs. This is about going against a societal imposition to repress a way of making some basic needs met. This is about acknowledging and accepting the fact that in certain situations some believe they are "entitled" to some things or acts(to fill a need) that society might frown upon. It does not make it right, it just makes it so.

 

Perhaps if society does not "punish" anybody who is dissatisfied with his/her relationship, maybe we will have less people cheating. Perhaps if we do not hold people captive to "love", many would be more forthcoming about their true feelings. Instead we are upset, angry, even violent when our partners fall out of love-or no longer feels the same way as we do them. Or we endure obvious cracks in the marriage because we are stubborn or maybe , full of our own importance to acknowledge that we have failed in our relationship. Who wants to deal with that? Nobody. Thus, the choice to furtively act. MHO.

[tami-chan]

Owl, here's the part that mystifies me: how could a person live to adulthood without understanding that gradually becoming involved romantically with a person other than one's spouse is wrong? I mean,this is not rocket science. It is pretty basic. How does someone reach adulthood and not understand this very simple boundary? That is incomprehensible to me.

 

 

Perhaps because this is not about "adulthood" or being mature. Countless brilliant men and women have affairs. This is about going against a societal imposition to repress a way of making some basic needs met. This is about acknowledging and accepting the fact that in certain situations some believe they are "entitled" to some things or acts(to fill a need) that society might frown upon. It does not make it right, it just makes it so.

 

Perhaps if society does not "punish" anybody who is dissatisfied with his/her relationship, maybe we will have less people cheating. Perhaps if we do not hold people captive to "love", many would be more forthcoming about their true feelings. Instead we are upset, angry, even violent when our partners fall out of love-or no longer feels the same way as we do them. Or we endure obvious cracks in the marriage because we are stubborn or maybe , full of our own importance to acknowledge that we have failed in our relationship. Who wants to deal with that? Nobody. Thus, the choice to furtively act. MHO.

[Reggie]

I agree. This is really not about someone not understanding boundaries. That is virtually impossible for a person of normal intelligence.

It's about someone conciously choosing a course of action with full knowledge of where it will lead.

The assertion thst boundaries were not understood is, IMO, something a Ws uses to avoid responsibility or a BS uses to rationalize the WS's actions.

Walking away from a relationship where one cannot keep his or her vows takes some courage and integrity. In todays society, there is very little social stigma attached to bailing, so I do not buy that factoring in too much. I think most cheaters simply do not want to make the sacrifices required to pursue what they want. So, they hedge their bets and cake eat.

[blueintheface]

Perhaps because this is not about "adulthood" or being mature. Countless brilliant men and women have affairs. This is about going against a societal imposition to repress a way of making some basic needs met. This is about acknowledging and accepting the fact that in certain situations some believe they are "entitled" to some things or acts(to fill a need) that society might frown upon. It does not make it right, it just makes it so.

 

Perhaps if society does not "punish" anybody who is dissatisfied with his/her relationship, maybe we will have less people cheating. Perhaps if we do not hold people captive to "love", many would be more forthcoming about their true feelings. Instead we are upset, angry, even violent when our partners fall out of love-or no longer feels the same way as we do them. Or we endure obvious cracks in the marriage because we are stubborn or maybe , full of our own importance to acknowledge that we have failed in our relationship. Who wants to deal with that? Nobody. Thus, the choice to furtively act. MHO.

 

So in point form - we live in a society of increasingly narcissist personalities, the "me" generation has arrived. Oh and blame it on society, the need to preserve the external image.

 

i don't know if i understood what you said. can someone simplify?

[tami-chan]

Sorry for the double post..I am not sure how that happened...

 

So in point form - we live in a society of increasingly narcissist personalities, the "me" generation has arrived. Oh and blame it on society, the need to preserve the external image.

 

hmm..HUH? I don't understand what you said either. I guess we are even...lol.

[jmargel]

After I found out (she cheated on me with my ex friend) I did confront him and at that point in time I had to make a choice. To let HER define my future or for me to start taking control of the situation.

 

I did this by making sure she would NEVER be in my life again. To take out the frustration I took up kick boxing. It does help alot.

 

See, by committing an act of violence it won't dull the pain you have experienced, it just creates more problems for yourself. The best way to get back at them is to move on without them and live a happy life. In this important time you MUST not act on emotion, it will only get you into trouble.

[blueintheface]

hmm..HUH? I don't understand what you said either. I guess we are even...lol.

 

i was trying to rephrase in point form what you said to ask if that is what you meant but i started getting confused and, well, it showed in my post lol. i guess i should use better grammar. basically what i got from your post:

 

 

- We live in a time where there are more narcissist personalities than before. (Your first paragraph)

 

 

- We will have less cheating if society does not punish dissatisfaction in a relationship. (how & why does society punish dissatisfaction?)

- People will tell the truth if they are not "held captive to love". (wait, did love come in and say stick 'em up? joke. actually, i don't get this part. Explain?)

- Unrequited love makes not a happy chappy and people endure through a bad marriage. For this reason, people would rather be sneaky (i.e. cheat) than deal with "this". (What is "this"? You mean failure and/or another person's negative feelings right? So what you're saying to Reggie's question is people do understand right from wrong but cheat anyway because they are cowards.)

[tami-chan]

I agree. This is really not about someone not understanding boundaries. That is virtually impossible for a person of normal intelligence.

It's about someone conciously choosing a course of action with full knowledge of where it will lead.

 

I disagree. Cheating happens in all spectrum of intelligence. It is about some yes, consciously choosing a course of action with full knowledge of where it COULD lead.

 

The assertion thst boundaries were not understood is, IMO, something a Ws uses to avoid responsibility or a BS uses to rationalize the WS's actions.

I agree. Boundaries are set and understood long before. That boundary is a staple in our society. If it were not understood then there won't be secrecy and lying and deceiving. But it is used because people always want to test what they can get away with.

 

Walking away from a relationship where one cannot keep his or her vows takes some courage and integrity.

It takes more than that. It also takes a heart that won't feel sorry and feel guilty. The person who will be left will pull the guilt-trip card, the crying. the anger and all that stuff. I think that is why it is harder to leave a relationship. Even though the outcome of an exposed affair will be worse than communicating your true feelings/thoughts in the first place. Perhaps because in an affair there is a chance 1) it won't be found out 2) the feelings of discontent in the marriage will pass.

 

I think most cheaters simply do not want to make the sacrifices required to pursue what they want. So, they hedge their bets and cake eat.

I agree for the most part. But there is no one reason why people cheat.

[Dexter Morgan]

I agree for the most part. But there is no one reason why people cheat.

 

No, but there is one common denominator.....lousy character.

[Reggie]

Not saying intelligent people do not cheat. Just that everyone that cheats fully understands that they are crossing a line. So, the claim that boundaries were poorly defined or not understood does not ring true to me.

As for the cheater being faced with crying and importuning etc.,if they divorce, most of the folks I've talked to who have been left have not engaged in this type of behavior. They are sad and may she some tears. But, most folks do not cry and grovel when a partner divorces them. Most folks realize you cannot force someone to feel love for you.

[tami-chan]

No, but there is one common denominator.....lousy character.

 

Perhaps, I wouldn't know.

[tami-chan]

Not saying intelligent people do not cheat. Just that everyone that cheats fully understands that they are crossing a line. So, the claim that boundaries were poorly defined or not understood does not ring true to me.

As for the cheater being faced with crying and importuning etc.,if they divorce, most of the folks I've talked to who have been left have not engaged in this type of behavior. They are sad and may she some tears. But, most folks do not cry and grovel when a partner divorces them. Most folks realize you cannot force someone to feel love for you.

 

hmmm.... I like the folks you've met....most folks ( I have the misfortune to meet) go into guilt-tripping....the "I can't believe he/ she did this to me, he/she promised to love me forever..."

[Dexter Morgan]

Perhaps, I wouldn't know.

 

Have you ever cheated or been knowingly and willingly an OW?

[pelicanpreacher]

The problem I have with your attitude Tami is that in most cases the cheater, instead of laying their cards on the table at the onset of their unhappiness, decide to use and abuse the time, love, money, and everything else they have access to from their spouses while the surreptiously make up their minds about how they want to develop their options. Only when they are absolutely sure they have ticked all the blood from their primary relationship their bloated beings can carry do they finally disclose the "I love you but I'm not in love with you" speech. Just once I'd like to see enough remorse for a WS to add "and I know that I used you terribly while I snuck around and stabbed you in the back so I want to doubly compensate you for everything I took from you while I cheated on you"! But, you, Tami, seem to hold firm to the mantra of the typical cheater that "Everything of mine is mine and everything of yours is mine so the hell with what you lose because its about me, its always been about me, and will always be about me and I dare you to do anything to change it"!

[Tired03]

I agree. Boundaries are set and understood long before. That boundary is a staple in our society. If it were not understood then there won't be secrecy and lying and deceiving. But it is used because people always want to test what they can get away with.

 

I would respectfully like to disagree.

 

What I have seen, in my experience with friends etc. all involved in primarily emotional affairs is that they did not understand boundaries. The secrecy ONLY happened once that line was fully crossed. But prior to that, back when it was "possible", they had no idea that they were on a fast track to difficulty.

 

I think an overly romantic view of marriage has created a situation where boundaries are ripe to be trampled all over. We get married because we're "in love" - but that means absolutely positively nothing. Love is a feeling, ephemeral. The real components for a marriage have absolutely nothing to DO with love, but no one chooses a spouse based on those criteria (at least no one in the 21-30 age range who hasn't been married before).

 

As far as violence goes, NOTHING excuses violence. Nothing. Feeling it is one thing, acting on it is entirely another.

 

And the poster who was earlier who had a knife to his wife's throat or whatever? You're sick and need help.

[tami-chan]

The problem I have with your attitude Tami is that in most cases the cheater, instead of laying their cards on the table at the onset of their unhappiness, decide to use and abuse the time, love, money, and everything else they have access to from their spouses while the surreptiously make up their minds about how they want to develop their options. Only when they are absolutely sure they have ticked all the blood from their primary relationship their bloated beings can carry do they finally disclose the "I love you but I'm not in love with you" speech. Just once I'd like to see enough remorse for a WS to add "and I know that I used you terribly while I snuck around and stabbed you in the back so I want to doubly compensate you for everything I took from you while I cheated on you"! But, you, Tami, seem to hold firm to the mantra of the typical cheater that "Everything of mine is mine and everything of yours is mine so the hell with what you lose because its about me, its always been about me, and will always be about me and I dare you to do anything to change it"!

 

WHOAH!!! so rich with assumptions! <shrug>

[tami-chan]

I would respectfully like to disagree.

 

What I have seen, in my experience with friends etc. all involved in primarily emotional affairs is that they did not understand boundaries. The secrecy ONLY happened once that line was fully crossed. But prior to that, back when it was "possible", they had no idea that they were on a fast track to difficulty.

 

I understand what you are saying. Many people DO find the lines are blurred between "just friends" and having an "emotional affair". BUT, if one starts feeling, thinking,expressing "i miss him/her ( in a "longing" way)", "i love him/her'...I think one MUST know that he/she is already crossing or about to cross THAT boundary...and therefore, must do something to avert the progress. The problem is, people start rationalizing and justifying those emotions and trudge on....until it is a full-blown emotional affair->physical affair.

 

But the boundaries are clearly set by society. If you are married, do not be seen in the company of the opposite sex at a club in the wee hours of the morning...even if you were only having drinks! If you are married, you do not talk to someone of the opposite sex and trash your spouse and tell that friend you wish your spouse was "like him/her"...boundaries like that...

 

I think an overly romantic view of marriage has created a situation where boundaries are ripe to be trampled all over. We get married because we're "in love" - but that means absolutely positively nothing. Love is a feeling, ephemeral. The real components for a marriage have absolutely nothing to DO with love, but no one chooses a spouse based on those criteria (at least no one in the 21-30 age range who hasn't been married before).

 

I AGREE 100%!

 

As far as violence goes, NOTHING excuses violence. Nothing. Feeling it is one thing, acting on it is entirely another.

 

And the poster who was earlier who had a knife to his wife's throat or whatever? You're sick and need help.

 

I do not even think "feeling" violent to the OW or WS is ok. I do not think I ever wished physical harm to anyone because I was betrayed. Not that I can remember, anyway...LOL...