Infidelity and Violence

[pelicanpreacher]

We're talking about the human condition and man's capacity to harm another man. I chuckle at the naivete of some of the posters here when I hear them sanctamoniously begin with the mantra "I believe..."!

 

RP, you've selectively remembered your history for many of those Jewish people who never ever contemplated harming a fly rose to fight and help defeat the Nazis by taking arms unto themselves. They indeed had to take lives in their efforts but I still would not constitute their actions as murder even if civilians got caught in the crossfire. When the instinct for survival kicks in all bets are off and it's last man standing. That is the rule, has always been the rule, and will always be the rule until the end of time.

 

Clara Harris no more murder her husband than I did. Everyone else was able to dodge her mercedes in the dark but his dumb azz jumped in front of it! He's dead by his own doing for Clara was merely an instrument of his own self determination. What kills me is that the court allowed the testimony of a confused, angry, conflicted, and hysterical teenager to determine Clara Harris's state of mind which smacks of impropriety in any other court of the land except Texas! Given a fair and accurate assessment of all the facts of this case there is no way in hell that anyone of sound mind and body couldn't have arrived at the correct conclusion of temporary insanity.

 

If the courts could prove with documented evidence that Clara had shown a previous propensity for extreme violence or cruelty throughout her life then I'd have to consider this case differently. Without that, all should have been forced to reconcile with the fact that Clara was pushed far beyond her capacity to reason due to extrordinary circumstances that ultimately culminated in the death of husband. Yes, we'd all like to believe that when faced with torment beyond our comprehension we'd still champion right over wrong to cresendo a "Hollywood" ending but, unless you have the discipline of a soldier, your thoughts and beliefs to the contrary are relegated to the realm of a fool's paradise. The fact remains that just because you haven't doesn't mean you can't until someone or something in this world pushes the wrong button in you.

 

If you have the capacity for curiosity then you have the capacity for wonder and knowledge. If you have the capacity for anger then you have the capacity for pain and rage. If you have the capacity for empathy you have the capacity for love and sorrow. If you have the capacity for revenge you have the capacity for spite and hate. And etc. These are the seeds sown in all human souls.

 

David Harris was a human being but I have no empathy for him so I have neither love nor sorrow for his state of being. His arrogant narcissim believed he could prevent his wife from damaging his lover's car by stepping into the fray but I guess he forgot that left his cape and tights at home and found out the hard way that he wasn't Super Man (oh well ). Clara Harris is a human being for which I have empathy as she is alive and frought will all the frailties that humanity encompasses and should have been tried fairly in accordance to all the factual evidence presented therein. She was guilty of manslaughter!

 

RP, you asked the wrong question BTW. If your child were guilty of murder with malice of forethought would you love him/her any less? Would you still champion their goodness for the sake of their life and freedom? WHAT WOULD YOU DO?!!! (Society craves to know!)

[65tr6]

it's the people who think it's OK to kill a cheating spouse and serve jail for only two years.

 

I thought you said all the posters in the thread were disgusting....did i read that wrong ?

[Athena]

 

RP, understand that some/most of BSs here are very successful and/or highly educated in life. The closest they have to come breaking the law is probably getting a speeding ticket......

LOL, this is true!!!!!!!!! I got one speeding ticket in my new car in 2006, traveling back from the airport ( I felt I deserved it, and it made me behave myself in my new car thereafter -- cop did a good thing by catching me... woke me up)... and one other speeding ticket 20 years earlier in another country, [by being hot-tailed by an unmarked police car on a deserted four lane highway (highway with no lights on a stretch of open land) during a period when the local newspapers reported various recent incidents of women driving alone at night being forced off the highway and attacked! The faster I drove, the faster he drove right on my tail, when I switched lanes, he switched lanes.. I was frightened out of my mind...)]

 

Your view on this is so skewed and distorted - your arguments are completely fallacious.

I agree with this... I noticed RP 'conveniently' ignored relevant parts of my posts and latched emotionally onto other parts... I figured that perhaps English isn't her native language and hence the subtleties were clearly missed by her, or else she's hot-headed and emotional and bull-dozes anyone who doesn't share her point of view, THEN LATER 'agrees to disagree' after her offensive and personal attacks.

Of course, the other reason could be that she's just not that good with arguing...

I give up with her. Not worth pointing anything out to her anymore. I do not have other experience with her apart from the same type of convenient bulldozing response to HER misunderstanding on another thread, where after I offered a clearer explanation, she simply didn't respond, apologize or anything, after an attacking comment.... however, I did see that Pelican has experience with her about her lack of reasoning abilities, so I decided not to bother with her.

 

It is not nice to see how vicious she can be, and has been, with posters on this board -- I fail to see why she cannot be civil in tone and argument to others here, so I gave her some of her own back, but it went right over her head... <<shrug>>... whatever!

[Athena]

I thought you said all the posters in the thread were disgusting....did i read that wrong ?

 

No -- its only the posters that have a different point of view to her, that she finds disgusting... in particular, the posters that are willing to see 'temporary insanity' of Mrs Harris in the incident of killing her H, as a condition to reduce her jail time from 20 yrs (max) to 2 yrs (min)... she takes THAT concession to 'prove' that anyone who would do that, must condone murder and have "...no problem with murder" -- ridiculous! Even when one states that is not the viewpoint they have, she simply (and rudely and offensively) bulldozes them down, disregards what they've said, and "proves" to them that they are despicable and disgusting people for 'considering' a reduced sentence (hypothetically) for a woman who killed her H in a fit of rage.

 

She makes it a personal attack. Dunno why. But I don't like her method of arguing.

[Dexter Morgan]

Wow, Owl, I never thought of you as a (potentially) violent person. I am surprised and it's not a good surprise. I mean, hitting your "opponent" out of jealousy is one thing, but making him disappear is the worst crime - it's murder. And your hurt feelings don't justify a murder of your wife's lover.

 

And you think this is manly? It's nothing but cowardice!!!

 

Well, for God's sake, it's not like he did it. More power to him having the ability and yet restraining himself. Are we dealing with the thought police, now.

 

 

right, he didn't do it. Nothing wrong with having fantasies about it though;)

 

Just like with my xW, I never would hit anyone unless it was in self defense, but boy the thoughts of slapping her in the face sure felt good anyway. I guess I should go to jail for simply thinking that.

[Dexter Morgan]

Like I said, I never will hit anyone unless its in self defense.

 

but is it a bad thing to kind of feel, "sucks to be you" with regards to my xW when her new bf dotted her eye?

 

I mean afterall, as RP pointed out, he didn't kill her.

[Owl]

I'll take this one step further.

 

Not only did I think it...I seriously, point blank, bald-faced considered it. I debated acting out on this...and what the outcomes would be.

 

And cold-bloodedly decided not to do it, based on the pros and cons...without any true "care" about the OM whatsoever.

 

Later I sat down and thought about everything, and decided instead to forgive everyone involved...OM and my wife.

 

Think what you like about me based off of this "revelation"...its what I thought/felt/worked through at the time.

[Dexter Morgan]

I'll take this one step further.

 

Not only did I think it...I seriously, point blank, bald-faced considered it. I debated acting out on this...and what the outcomes would be.

 

And cold-bloodedly decided not to do it, based on the pros and cons...without any true "care" about the OM whatsoever.

 

Later I sat down and thought about everything, and decided instead to forgive everyone involved...OM and my wife.

 

Think what you like about me based off of this "revelation"...its what I thought/felt/worked through at the time.

 

 

These are the kinds of emotions and hurt that are brought to the surface when someone betrays you in the worst way possible.

 

You had an understandable fit of rage...but you calmed yourself down, thought it through rationally, and didn't let the despicable actions of your wife make you do something you know you shouldn't.

 

but I have to ask, if you were seriously thinking about taking this guy out, then why are you still with your so-called wife?

[Owl]

These are the kinds of emotions and hurt that are brought to the surface when someone betrays you in the worst way possible.

 

You had an understandable fit of rage...but you calmed yourself down, thought it through rationally, and didn't let the despicable actions of your wife make you do something you know you shouldn't.

 

but I have to ask, if you were seriously thinking about taking this guy out, then why are you still with your so-called wife?

 

I'd like to point out to you that this is exactly the kind of response you give that people find offensive...including me.

 

She's not a "so-called" anything.

 

She's my wife. Who did something totally stupid, thoughtless, and completely and utterly self-centered. That hurt me tremendously.

 

And learned from it. Changed her mindset, changed her behaviors, changed her actions, reset her boundaries, and has utterly regretted what she did.

 

Someone who'd never done anything similar in the 17 years prior to this...we'd had 17 years of wonderful marriage prior to that year of "HELL". And someone who's spent the 4 years since this event ensuring that we've rebuilt our marriage, rebuilt my trust in her, and basically made our marriage as good or better than it was even during that previous 17 years.

 

She's not my "so-called wife". She's my wife.

 

A huge distinction.

 

And she was someone I knew, loved, and cared for all of that time prior to this event.

 

OM was no one. A guy who tried to worm his way into my marriage, who intentionally tried to do the things that he'd done. Dropping him wouldn't have bothered me one little bit. Losing my kids, my family, and my chance to rebuild things with my wife would have.

[Dexter Morgan]

I'd like to point out to you that this is exactly the kind of response you give that people find offensive...including me.

 

She's not a "so-called" anything.

 

No offense, but if she cheated on you enough to get you so balled up that you'd want to kill a man, she wasn't a wife to you in any sense of the word. Hence the "so-called" comment. If you say she is just a fine and dandy woman now, then I can drop the "so-called" part.

 

Better?

 

 

She's my wife. Who did something totally stupid, thoughtless, and completely and utterly self-centered. That hurt me tremendously.

 

And learned from it. Changed her mindset, changed her behaviors, changed her actions, reset her boundaries, and has utterly regretted what she did.

 

such as?

 

 

Someone who'd never done anything similar in the 17 years prior to this...we'd had 17 years of wonderful marriage prior to that year of "HELL". And someone who's spent the 4 years since this event ensuring that we've rebuilt our marriage, rebuilt my trust in her, and basically made our marriage as good or better than it was even during that previous 17 years.

 

She's not my "so-called wife". She's my wife.

 

whatever you say my man:rolleyes:

 

 

A huge distinction.

 

And she was someone I knew, loved, and cared for all of that time prior to this event.

 

OM was no one. A guy who tried to worm his way into my marriage

 

owl, sorry to say, but it doesn't look like he really had to worm his way in.

he got in because your wife wanted him in and let him in.

 

 

who intentionally tried to do the things that he'd done. Dropping him wouldn't have bothered me one little bit.

 

So basically all this rage for someone who is "no one" and you wouldn't have had a problem dropping him....seems alot of your rage was misplaced. Should have been reserved for YOUR WIFE (I dropped the "so-called" part....happy?)

[Owl]

He "got in" for several reasons.

 

She didn't understand "boundaries". Never considered it possible that she could find herself tempted to cheat, so never understood the need for strong boundaries.

 

She went through a series of events leading up to this that caused some pretty severe depression...which she refused to acknowledge. But that depression was another one of the factors that led to her "lowered boundaries".

 

Our marriage was also going through a lot of stress due to having four older teens in the house all at one shot. Constant fighting...between them, between us and them, and between the two of us on discipline and such.

 

All of which set the stage for her to make some really bad decisions. Yes, they were conscious choices. Yes, she went through that same phase of "it just happened" that all WS's go through...but if you asked her now, she'd tell you that it wasn't an accident. It was pure stupidity. That she owns, and regrets.

 

What makes you think I WASN'T angry at her at the time???

 

I most definitely was. I was furious. I was hurt beyond belief. But...I'd loved her for 17 years...so hurting her wasn't a consideration for me. Hurting him didn't have that same feeling.

 

And here's the thing. I read their chat logs after all of this was said and done. I read exactly what he said, what he did, that led up to all of this. I SAW what he did to create this situation...how he deliberately phrased things, how he intentionally set things up to make himself look good and our marriage (me) less so. I could see exactly how he played her.

 

Yep...I saw how she bought into it too. I saw her side of this as well...and no, she was NOT blameless. Nor did I refuse to blame her for her part as well.

 

And even with that...at the end...I forgave them both.

 

Dex...have you ever forgiven anyone who has deliberately and intentionally wronged you in a big way? Ever? If so, I'd love to see an example of it. If not, then it's completely unsurprising that you not only would not, but could not possibly have learned how to recover a marriage.

[Dexter Morgan]

He "got in" for several reasons.

 

She didn't understand "boundaries". Never considered it possible that she could find herself tempted to cheat, so never understood the need for strong boundaries.

 

Ok, just let me ask this in response to that paragraph.......what???

 

 

She went through a series of events leading up to this that caused some pretty severe depression...which she refused to acknowledge. But that depression was another one of the factors that led to her "lowered boundaries".

 

Well pray she never gets depressed again.

 

 

 

Our marriage was also going through a lot of stress due to having four older teens in the house all at one shot. Constant fighting...between them, between us and them, and between the two of us on discipline and such.

 

Oh I understand the pressures of family life. But just like I, you lived with those same pressures.....but you didn't cheat.

 

 

 

What makes you think I WASN'T angry at her at the time???

 

Not saying you weren't angry with her, but you obviously had a spat of hella rage for the OM. I don't understand why you wouldn't have that same spat of rage for the person that DIRECTLY betrayed you.

 

 

I most definitely was. I was furious. I was hurt beyond belief. But...I'd loved her for 17 years...so hurting her wasn't a consideration for me. Hurting him didn't have that same feeling.

 

She did worse to you than the OM whom you wanted to murder.

 

 

And here's the thing. I read their chat logs after all of this was said and done. I read exactly what he said, what he did, that led up to all of this. I SAW what he did to create this situation...how he deliberately phrased things, how he intentionally set things up to make himself look good and our marriage (me) less so. I could see exactly how he played her.

 

Uh, she is a married woman, shouldn't have been able to be played.

 

 

Yep...I saw how she bought into it too. I saw her side of this as well...and no, she was NOT blameless. Nor did I refuse to blame her for her part as well.

 

I was gonna say, cause you sure seem to make a good case for her.

 

 

And even with that...at the end...I forgave them both.

 

the beauty of that is you are not in prison right now because of your level head. your rage didn't get the better of you.

 

 

Dex...have you ever forgiven anyone who has deliberately and intentionally wronged you in a big way?

 

Yup, but never cheating. Why? Because I didn't stay with them. Forgiveness is a meaningless gesture to someone you have no desire to ever see again.

 

 

Ever? If so, I'd love to see an example of it.

 

example, a friend of mine long ago cockblocked me and stepped in and dated someone he KNEW I liked and didn't have a design on her til after he knew it. I was pissed at him, but she wasn't my gf and I realized later that he did me a favor as i saw after a few other guys she dated after that, that she wasn't worth my time.

 

I forgave him, we are still friends to this day, and he knows that if he ever cockblocks me again, he'll have a broken nose. LOL...that alone keeps him in line.

 

As for someone that has cheated on me, i want nothing to do with them after that.

 

 

If not, then it's completely unsurprising that you not only would not, but could not possibly have learned how to recover a marriage.

 

No, it shouldn't be surprising to you that I don't want to recover a marriage with a cheater. Why would I? Whats in it for me other than a lifetime of suspicion, even at the smallest level....forgiveness or not.

[Reggie]

Reovering a marriage, with a cheater, is just something that most folks have no interest in doing. Initially, due to fear and a sense of competition, many man react to attempt to recover it. But, most men regret that course of action after a year or two.

[Owl]

No, it shouldn't be surprising to you that I don't want to recover a marriage with a cheater. Why would I? Whats in it for me other than a lifetime of suspicion, even at the smallest level....forgiveness or not.

 

I think I just had an epiphany moment here. I get where our disconnect is on this part...and the issue isn't you, it's me.

 

I don't trust ANYONE completely, totally, utterly. I'm generally somewhat suspiscious of everyone.

 

So in that respect, it doesn't matter if I were to divorce my wife and remarry...because I'd still be suspiscious to some degree with anyone new that I was with.

 

Might as well stay with the person I know and love already, and one who has clearly demonstrated that she LEARNED from her actions, rather than one who could potentially make the same kind of mistake since they HADN'T learned those same lessons.

[stampdaddy]

OWL, clear your PM box, it's full

[Owl]

Reovering a marriage, with a cheater, is just something that most folks have no interest in doing. Initially, due to fear and a sense of competition, many man react to attempt to recover it. But, most men regret that course of action after a year or two.

 

I would argue this point.

 

It's what YOU chose not to do. It's what Dex chose not to do.

 

But if you read these forums, you find tons of people that come here looking for exactly what you say most folks doen't want to do...they come here trying to save their marriage.

 

And SOME do come to regret their choice to try. But I wouldn't agree that most don't want to try...if they didn't want to try, they wouldn't come to forums asking for help in doing exactly that, would they? There wouldn't be tons of MC's out there helping people to do exactly that. People wouldn't go to those MC's, they wouldn't buy books written to help do that...if they didn't want to.

 

You're confusing YOUR choice not with thinking that it applies to everyone else.

[carhill]

IMO, the effort says something about one's self, one's commitment to what one believes in. Even if the effort is ultimately fruitless, it allows one to continue with the positive energy of their efforts and a sincere belief in themselves.

 

For me, and each of us is different, my regret would be in not trying, not giving it my best and highest effort. IMO, the success in failure is in the effort

[Dexter Morgan]

I think I just had an epiphany moment here. I get where our disconnect is on this part...and the issue isn't you, it's me.

 

I don't trust ANYONE completely, totally, utterly. I'm generally somewhat suspiscious of everyone.

 

So in that respect, it doesn't matter if I were to divorce my wife and remarry...because I'd still be suspiscious to some degree with anyone new that I was with.

 

I see what you are saying. But I'd rather give someone else the benefit of the doubt. I'd be a helluva lot more trusting with a new lady who hasn't betrayed me than someone who has PROVEN to me she isn't trustworthy.

 

 

Might as well stay with the person I know and love already, and one who has clearly demonstrated that she LEARNED from her actions

 

Well I asked this before...how has she done that?

 

In my opinion the only way I'd even come close to being satisfied is if the woman that cheated on me NEVER went on a "girl's night out" again, didn't drink at all, didn't go to ANY social events without me.

 

Those things I just laid out wouldn't be a problem for me to accept with someone that has NOT proven herself untrustworthy. But for a woman that HAS proven she can't be trusted, those things would now be expected by me. and if they don't like it, then I hope the door hits her on the ass on the way out. but then again, the latter example I wouldn't need to lay down the rules....she'd be gone.

 

 

rather than one who could potentially make the same kind of mistake since they HADN'T learned those same lessons.

 

By that logic, you should go out and have a grand old time with another woman, that way your wife has someone that got that out of the way as well.

[Owl]

LOL...good joke about going out and finding another woman. But, the beauty of this is that my wife doesn't have a concern about me doing so...I'm already "wiser" than she was.

 

You've asked me how my wife has demonstrated that she learned from what happened. I thought that I'd explained that, but I might not have.

 

Prior to this, she didn't realize that there was a risk in telling others, especially other men, about her/our personal lives. She didn't understand that sharing things like that can eventually build a repoire. She didn't see any harm in opposite sex friends. She never considered that not setting a "hard and fast" boundary could result in the slow overstepping of a weak boundary. That she could get caught up with someone else through a series of small bad decisions...she thought it had to be one great big one.

 

Now, she's demonstrated her understanding of all of that. She sets hard boundaries that would prevent her or the other person from getting "too close". She understands the risk of opposite sex friends, and therefore sets some really strong limits to opportunities that could result in something like that forming. She makes the right choices on the small decisions as well as the big ones...such as not getting into any kind of personal communication with another guy in ANY fashion, no matter how innocent it may appear to be.

 

In other words, she's proven her trustworthiness by demonstrating that she learned from her past. She's "safer" in a way now than she was before, because she understands the risks, understands the process an affair takes, and now CONSCIOUSLY avoids it, rather than assuming that we're somehow "immune" to it.

 

ANYONE is CAPABLE of making bad choices that hurt you. EVERYONE is. Any person you allow close enough to love has the power to hurt you in that fashion. And once you've been burnt in that fashion, you'll ALWAYS have some sense of 'distrust'...you won't blindly ASSUME that they can't do that to you.

 

In my case, since my wife has taken all of these steps, learned all these hard lessons...and I still love her, as well as know that she loves me...taking a risk on being with her is no less risky than it would be to kick her to the curb and try the same thing with someone I don't know as well.

 

I'd agree that not every marriage can recover...don't take me wrong. But I also do NOT share YOUR view that every marriage that suffers infidelity is doomed, either to failure or to misery. My case clearly disproves that theory.

[65tr6]

Reovering a marriage, with a cheater, is just something that most folks have no interest in doing. Initially, due to fear and a sense of competition, many man react to attempt to recover it. But, most men regret that course of action after a year or two.

 

Reggie...I could not disagree with you anymore. (Dont tell me you just said that to elicit reactions). I have utmost interest in recovering my marriage. The motivation I had on the dday is about the same I have now six months into it. I have my "weak" moments but I also realize I went through a shocking phase in my life.

 

Yes it does scare the hell out of me thinking most folks here dont seem to recover from a cheating. But that does not deter me one bit.

 

Due to fear and a sense of competition.....

 

I would clarify that....In the beginning may be..after d-day. But no, not anymore. Keep in mind, as you very well know, on the dday, when the truth comes out, it comes as a complete shock. You say do things that are completely irrational. Like you said, you blurt out things out of fear. But boy does that change quickly or what. I know it does not work well for everyone. I guess it depends on how they react to it.

 

Recovery, as I am finding out is slow but steady process. You both have to change ever so slightly every day while at the same time the boundaries take firm shape. It is possible to regain most of the respect you once had in yourself. About me thinking OM was the competition at one time...lol. Let's just leave it at that.

 

About me regreting about one year or two into this ? Very very unlikely. May be that is just me. I believe if you do something without fear of failure and give it your best, you almost always succeed. The energy, the passion that can go along with it can be very very powerful. While my recovery is not pretty at times, it is actually "fun". Gives a whole new perspective on what/how much you take things for granted in life. And yes it works both for BS and WS. I see this phase as a phenomenal learning curve for personal growth.

[Dexter Morgan]

LOL...good joke about going out and finding another woman. But, the beauty of this is that my wife doesn't have a concern about me doing so...I'm already "wiser" than she was.

 

I don't doubt that for one moment.

 

 

You've asked me how my wife has demonstrated that she learned from what happened. I thought that I'd explained that, but I might not have.

 

Prior to this, she didn't realize that there was a risk in telling others, especially other men, about her/our personal lives. She didn't understand that sharing things like that can eventually build a repoire. She didn't see any harm in opposite sex friends. She never considered that not setting a "hard and fast" boundary could result in the slow overstepping of a weak boundary. That she could get caught up with someone else through a series of small bad decisions...she thought it had to be one great big one.

 

Now, she's demonstrated her understanding of all of that. She sets hard boundaries that would prevent her or the other person from getting "too close". She understands the risk of opposite sex friends, and therefore sets some really strong limits to opportunities that could result in something like that forming. She makes the right choices on the small decisions as well as the big ones...such as not getting into any kind of personal communication with another guy in ANY fashion, no matter how innocent it may appear to be.

 

The bolded part is the big one. And it all sounds fine and dandy. But has she taken steps to refrain from socializing without you, maybe partying, going out with friends to a club...maybe she didn't do that in the first place.

 

But as a married woman, she should have had automatic boundaries to begin with.

 

I remember someone in this forum saying that their SO was making out with someone, but when it came time to go further she stopped because she didn't want to exceed the boundaries..... ya mean kissing was an acceptable boundary?

 

In your wife's case, sounds as if flirting was an acceptable boundary and in my opinion flirting is showing interest in someone of the opposite sex.

 

 

ANYONE is CAPABLE of making bad choices that hurt you. EVERYONE is.

 

Sorry, I disagree. never have I cheated on anyone, and never will I. I also will never be, knowingly, an OM.

 

I'm not capable of it. I despise it.

 

 

Any person you allow close enough to love has the power to hurt you in that fashion. And once you've been burnt in that fashion, you'll ALWAYS have some sense of 'distrust'...you won't blindly ASSUME that they can't do that to you.

 

I agree I don't blindly trust. But here are two scenarios.

 

1) I don't blindly trust a new relationship partner, but since they haven't given me any reason to not have at least 95% of my trust, I am not going to act like their prison guard or warden. I trust my current SO out in social settings without me, but there are a few things I wouldn't put up with, like coming home in the wee hours of the morning.

 

and

 

2) a relationship partner that HAS cheated. With THIS partner, not only do I not trust her now, I would NOT trust her to be in social settings without me from that point on.

 

I'd rather not be a private investigator or warden, therefore I refuse to remain in scenario #2. I don't care what she would do to make it up...she has proven she can't handle social settings without me. She should have had those boundaries in the first place.

 

 

I'd agree that not every marriage can recover...don't take me wrong. But I also do NOT share YOUR view that every marriage that suffers infidelity is doomed, either to failure or to misery. My case clearly disproves that theory.

 

Oh, I don't think every marriage is doomed after infidelity...at least on the surface.

 

But I do believe that even if a marriage "survives", the person that was betrayed is never completely at peace ever again by being with that person. Sure, things can get back to some sort of "normal"...but deep down a scar remains and a BS WILL be reminded from time to time of what the cheating spouse did to them.

 

Thats a life I want no part of and to ME, its not "surviving"....its settling for a life less lived.

[Owl]

The bolded part is the big one. And it all sounds fine and dandy. But has she taken steps to refrain from socializing without you, maybe partying, going out with friends to a club...maybe she didn't do that in the first place.

 

But as a married woman, she should have had automatic boundaries to begin with.

 

Exactly right. She never did all that much "without me" to begin with, but in her case she began an emotional affair with someone she met gaming online. She no longer games online at all without me. She spends her time in game with ME...so there's no risk of an interest forming there again. One more of those steps that I was talking about.

 

 

In your wife's case, sounds as if flirting was an acceptable boundary and in my opinion flirting is showing interest in someone of the opposite sex.

 

In her case, it was partially that, but a lot of it was a great amount of naivete on her part as well...she truly didn't realize that what was going on was flirting...she's always been rather gullible when it comes to that. This opened her eyes a good bit...she now tends to WATCH for ulterior motives where she never suspected them before.

 

 

Sorry, I disagree. never have I cheated on anyone, and never will I. I also will never be, knowingly, an OM.

 

I'm not capable of it. I despise it.

 

I too will never cheat on anyone. BUT...how would any person I was involved with completely and utterly KNOW that??? They can't. No more than you can completely and utterly KNOW that the person you've chosen to be with won't cheat either. You CAN'T.

 

So, from that viewpoint...being with ANYONE is a risk.

 

 

But I do believe that even if a marriage "survives", the person that was betrayed is never completely at peace ever again by being with that person. Sure, things can get back to some sort of "normal"...but deep down a scar remains and a BS WILL be reminded from time to time of what the cheating spouse did to them.

 

Thats a life I want no part of and to ME, its not "surviving"....its settling for a life less lived.

 

That's your BELIEF.

 

I've LIVED a different scenario than you believe. I KNOW that it can be done, as I live it everyday.

 

I'm not trying to convince you to change your views...but I AM trying to get you to understand that not everyone shares your view...some of us have lived something completely different. I don't condemn you for choosing not to remain with your wife. Don't condemn me for choosing to stay with mine. Or condemn me for trying to help those that share my choice.

[grogster]

I'm not trying to convince you to change your views...but I AM trying to get you to understand that not everyone shares your view...some of us have lived something completely different. I don't condemn you for choosing not to remain with your wife. Don't condemn me for choosing to stay with mine. Or condemn me for trying to help those that share my choice.

 

Owl, you're of the Shack's best infidelity commentators. Keep posting because, like LB, for example, you shed more light than heat on the incendiary topic. Your posts are lived, and aim to help not excoriate.

 

If I had your counsel, perhaps I never would have embarked on my life altering affair.

 

What's done is done.

[Reggie]

I would argue this point.

 

It's what YOU chose not to do. It's what Dex chose not to do.

 

But if you read these forums, you find tons of people that come here looking for exactly what you say most folks doen't want to do...they come here trying to save their marriage.

 

And SOME do come to regret their choice to try. But I wouldn't agree that most don't want to try...if they didn't want to try, they wouldn't come to forums asking for help in doing exactly that, would they? There wouldn't be tons of MC's out there helping people to do exactly that. People wouldn't go to those MC's, they wouldn't buy books written to help do that...if they didn't want to.

 

You're confusing YOUR choice not with thinking that it applies to everyone else.

 

Owl, I do think most folks want to try , initially. I know I would have been willing to try. But, the reading I have done suggests that, after the intial fear or competetiveness wears off, the vast majority of men regret not having bailed .

So, maybe I was unclear. I agree there is a strong urge to initially recover. That is very natural, as there is so much to lose. But, I think the reality is that , except for a minority of cases(the studies seem to show about a 30% reconcilliation rate((but, the quality of those marriages is not discussed), the cheating, eventually , causes the demise of the marriage.

As for the assertion that many want to try, hence all the folks on these forums, I acknowledge that the initial response is to try to salvage what is most commonly unsalvageable. There is an outside chance at recovering and I think many folks want to take a crack at it. But, most of the time, the marriage is just so forever denatured, there is not much to be done and the inevitable demise is just forestalled.

[Dexter Morgan]

That's your BELIEF.

 

I've LIVED a different scenario than you believe. I KNOW that it can be done, as I live it everyday.

 

I'm not trying to convince you to change your views...but I AM trying to get you to understand that not everyone shares your view...some of us have lived something completely different. I don't condemn you for choosing not to remain with your wife. Don't condemn me for choosing to stay with mine. Or condemn me for trying to help those that share my choice.

 

I know not everyone shares my view, as not everyone shares yours.

 

don't misunderstand Owl, I'm in your corner. I'm not condemning you at all. Even if I were to say, "you are crazy for wanting to stay with your wife", which I wouldn't say to YOU, doesn't mean I'm condemning you. I feel for you brother.

You have to do what you think is right for you and hope she does right by you.

 

Still doesn't mean I think you could do better, but good luck.