Infidelity and Violence

[pkn06002]

Wow this is like a thread over at marriage builders.

 

How sad

[Owl]

It's simple enough to understand, if you think about it.

 

Most people equate the devestation and emotional trauma of finding out that they're spouse is cheating on them to the same kind of trauma you'd experience with the death of someone close, or to that of having been raped.

 

It's hardly surprising that people would consider violence against those that they perceive as the "perpatrators" of that trauma against them.

 

As I said...most choose not to act on it.

 

But what's so difficult to believe that they'd have those impulses? And what is it that disgusts you by that simple, HUMAN response?

 

I'm an ex-combat vet. The emotional trauma that I went through as a result of my wife's affair was every bit as devestating as what I dealt with as a result of my combat expereience. I've suffered PTSD twice in my life...from these two events.

 

If you can recognize the depth of the damage that's done to a BS as a result of an affair, it makes understanding why these kinds of responses are NORMAL. Again...violent impulses or fantasies that the vast majority of people never act on. as a direct result of severe emotional trauma. What's the shock in that?

[65tr6]

You're all utterly disgusting.

really ? Almost all of us did NOT act (and more than likely WONT ever...) on our feelings....unlike our WS. You see a BIG difference there ? May want to lighten up a bit. This is more of a venting thread.

[bentnotbroken]

I don't mind falling into the category of disgusting if my actions were disgusting. But potentially leaving my children without a mother over a piece of over used tail is more disgusting to me. Putting my life at risk without asking me and when I asked him if he were cheating he lied and so no, but continued to put my life at risk and that of our family.

 

What if the ow's H had decided he had enough and went after Mr. Messy and one of the children or I had been caught in the cross fire, with out ever knowing why. Leaving doesn't take a way the fear that you have contracted something or that you are going to be dealing with a bunny boiler for years(like some of us have) Long after the f-fest is over, some of us still live with the consequences, yet we are disgusting for saying what we either did or would like to do. A pity to think that cheating would be the only reason for protecting yourself against a ws or ap. For some of us it is literally life and death. And I would much rather it not be my life. Faced with that choice....by any means necessary.

[Athena]

Pelican, a well-written post.

[pelicanpreacher]

They are both right. What David Harris did was dead wrong but how does that justify running over him with your daughter in the car. That will traumatize her for life when her mother could have just divorced his as and shown her daughter an example of a woman who respects herself more than to put up with a cheater. Now she has a dead cheater for a father and a murderer for a mother. Some people on here sound no better than those islamic nations who allow men to kill women for adultry.

 

No one's ever said that Clara's actions were right or justified or even championed her cause. After reviewing the case in its entirety all I've concluded is that the only crime she committed was manslaughter in a fit of passion and that the maximum punishment I'd meet out to her was 2 years of imprisonment. As to the tramau endured by their daughter I alluded to my misgivings on her behalf in my original post on the subject matter so enough said there. I've also said that I don't feel empathy or sympathy for her X (pun intended) husband because his behavior doesn't warrant any! If you'd like to make your argument on that final point alone, be my guest.

[RecordProducer]

Some people on here sound no better than those islamic nations who allow men to kill women for adultry.

Bravo, Woggle! That was the wisest thought I've read on this forum lately!

 

OWL, I respect your explanations and your choice to not act upon your impulse. Actually, you don't disgust me - it's the people who think it's OK to kill a cheating spouse and serve jail for only two years. You didn't say you thought murder was justified and murderers of cheaters should be given awards for pity. You are just saying that human nature goes beyond the rational, am I correct? The others, who claim that the law should stand behind murderers of cheaters, disgust me.

 

So, a question for you who defend murder out of passion: what if your child cheates on his or her spouse some day? Would you still feel the same?

 

Bentnotbroken, there's a reason why some of us bend but not break, right? I salute your strength. Actually, one psychologist told me once that you have to bend to prevent breaking.

 

Pelican, for Pete's sake, what are you trying to say? Do YOU even know?

[pelicanpreacher]

Bravo, Woggle! That was the wisest thought I've read on this forum lately!

 

OWL, I respect your explanations and your choice to not act upon your impulse. Actually, you don't disgust me - it's the people who think it's OK to kill a cheating spouse and serve jail for only two years. You didn't say you thought murder was justified and murderers of cheaters should be given awards for pity. You are just saying that human nature goes beyond the rational, am I correct? The others, who claim that the law should stand behind murderers of cheaters, disgust me.

 

So, a question for you who defend murder out of passion: what if your child cheates on his or her spouse some day? Would you still feel the same?

 

Bentnotbroken, there's a reason why some of us bend but not break, right? I salute your strength. Actually, one psychologist told me once that you have to bend to prevent breaking.

 

Pelican, for Pete's sake, what are you trying to say? Do YOU even know?

 

Try to use your head for something other than a hat rack and it'll come to you.

[Athena]

Try to use your head for something other than a hat rack and it'll come to you.

 

Pelican! You certainly have unique ways of saying things!!!

(I love your choice of imagery in all your posts... )

[Athena]

This thread makes me really sad as to how people think that their feelings matter more than somebody's life. You don't have to stay with a person who hurt you emotionally. You can walk away. Nobody owes you anything in this world. You're nobody. You're hurt because somebody didn't want you - that's your problem. They don't deserve to die for NOT wanting you or cheating on you. Leave! If you think that your ego is more important than somebody's life - you're wrong. You're so wrong. And so petty, small, and insecure.

 

You're all utterly disgusting.

 

It is ironic how the husband drove his wife insane by gaslighting her, only to have made her crazy enough to have driven over him and killed him! I personally was horrified to hear the news the day it was broadcast, but -- Just to think that had he merely cheated on his W, and walked away from her, she would have only have had her "feelings hurt" as you say. She would have been hurt emotionally (like the rest of us BS here), but not made crazy, and he would have been alive today!

 

Anyway, do you think that the courts should have given her the death penalty for killing him? Is putting someone to death ever acceptable? Or are you just talking about a Life Sentence for her?

 

I do not know what the perfect punishment for her crime would be, but it is ironic that her CH thought he was safe making her into a crazy-lady!

[Reggie]

This thread makes me really sad as to how people think that their feelings matter more than somebody's life. You don't have to stay with a person who hurt you emotionally. You can walk away. Nobody owes you anything in this world. You're nobody. You're hurt because somebody didn't want you - that's your problem. They don't deserve to die for NOT wanting you or cheating on you. Leave! If you think that your ego is more important than somebody's life - you're wrong. You're so wrong. And so petty, small, and insecure.

 

You're all utterly disgusting.

 

Huh?Who adovocated killing or harming someone for cheating? I thought most, if not all, here said cheating does not justify violence. Where did you come up with this?

[pelicanpreacher]

Huh?Who adovocated killing or harming someone for cheating? I thought most, if not all, here said cheating does not justify violence. Where did you come up with this?

 

Reg, RP has muddled up so many posts here that you can't take her opinion on anything too seriously. Considering that she is also a CHEATER you have to also consider the source from that perspective as well. What I think she really has a problem with is the fact the some people can empathize enough with Clara Harris's state of mind at the time of the incident to recognize that, under extreme physical and emotional duress, she lost her mind, snapped, and experienced a dissociative psychotic episode thus allowing for a more lenient jail term as punishment for her crime than the one meted out to her. You'd think that by considering sentencing her to 2 years in prison it was equivalent to giving her a parade by RP's reaction!

[LakesideDream]

Wow, this thread has changed in a disturbing way. With reluctance I am compelled to add to the written carnage.

 

First, let me say with complete certainty that I have never taken a life in anger. I don't believe it's a part of my personality to do so. It is fortunate that at my age, the situation will almost certainly never arise. That being said.....

 

I have taken, or was responsible for the taking of more lives than I can possibly remember, or even guess at. I only remember a few individuals who actually got close enough to me personally to imprint on my mind. The situation was always chaotic. Violence was the point of the excercise. Killing and avoiding being killed was my job, literally and figuritively. There was no pleasure involved, other than the pleasure of realizing that I was still alive at the end of hostilities.

 

I understand passion and violence. When younger I have reacted with inappropriate levels of violence when attacked or threatened. Those were acts of anger, or outrage. I was lucky, and I mean lucky enough to have never caused fatal damage in those incidents.

 

That being said, I have never reacted to a personal loss with anger. As stated before, my family and some friends actually worried that I would attack and kill my ex wifes LT BF when I discovered her infidelity. The thought didn't enter my mind. He wasn't physically threatening to me so the possiblility of it happening in "self defense" didn't occur to me either.

 

My ex's behavior left a hole in my existance that violence had no hope of filling. I know, from long experiance that violence, and love (or the loss of love) are opposites. When I discovered the truth I felt as if I was beaten repeatedly. Everything hurt. My hair hurt. My only impulse was to survive until the pain subsided. For the most part it has. Without having to consider the situation I knew when it was happening that becoming violent would only cause me to feel more pain, pain for my own actions. It was obviously pointless.

 

I fully realise that I still suffer from the after effects (thats nine years later). I fought a war, returned injured, and never had any psycological damage felt or diagnosed. The end of my marriage of 25 years caused me much more damage. If I believed in excuses, or POP psycology I'd say I was still suffering from PTSD from that event. I fully realize that the chances are good that I will take negetive effects from that event to my grave.

 

That's the damage we can do to each other without lifting a violent finger. I cannot blame Mrs. Harris for reacting as she did, if she reacted in a truely spontanious manner. Without experiance dealing with violence, she stepped over the line, and killed in the heat of the moment. She was never trained how to deal with and control those emotions. Like the PreacherBird, I would have dealt with her less harshly than her "peers". I understand the difficulty possibly the impossibility of an untrained person controlling their emotions in chaotic situations.

 

She was traumatized by the situation and reacted badly. In a similar situation I was traumatized by a similar situation and "shut down" emotionally, which protected me from doing myself damage. I was lucky.

 

None of us can know with certainty how we will react under extreme stress unless we have faced the situation previously.

 

I was never angry, I never blamed the OM for being in love with my wife. How could I? Obviously he experianced the same things I did with her, I was in love with her, we must have been more alike than either are willing to admit.

 

I couldn't physically hurt somebody I was in love with, who I had loved deeply most of my adult life. I didn't stop loving her, being in love with her because she didn't want me any more. That took time, and reflection. When I hurt so badly, I still wanted her to comfort me, but I knew that she wouldn't/couldn't. Those demons I had to fight alone, (for awhile, but that's another story you probably are bored to death hearing).

 

I feel sympathy for BS's. I don't "hate on" the WS's. After all, Scorpions will be Scorpions. Sorry for the ramble. Hopefully some will make some sense of it.

[pelicanpreacher]

Wow, this thread has changed in a disturbing way. With reluctance I am compelled to add to the written carnage.

 

First, let me say with complete certainty that I have never taken a life in anger. I don't believe it's a part of my personality to do so. It is fortunate that at my age, the situation will almost certainly never arise. That being said.....

 

I have taken, or was responsible for the taking of more lives than I can possibly remember, or even guess at. I only remember a few individuals who actually got close enough to me personally to imprint on my mind. The situation was always chaotic. Violence was the point of the excercise. Killing and avoiding being killed was my job, literally and figuritively. There was no pleasure involved, other than the pleasure of realizing that I was still alive at the end of hostilities.

 

I understand passion and violence. When younger I have reacted with inappropriate levels of violence when attacked or threatened. Those were acts of anger, or outrage. I was lucky, and I mean lucky enough to have never caused fatal damage in those incidents.

 

That being said, I have never reacted to a personal loss with anger. As stated before, my family and some friends actually worried that I would attack and kill my ex wifes LT BF when I discovered her infidelity. The thought didn't enter my mind. He wasn't physically threatening to me so the possiblility of it happening in "self defense" didn't occur to me either.

 

My ex's behavior left a hole in my existance that violence had no hope of filling. I know, from long experiance that violence, and love (or the loss of love) are opposites. When I discovered the truth I felt as if I was beaten repeatedly. Everything hurt. My hair hurt. My only impulse was to survive until the pain subsided. For the most part it has. Without having to consider the situation I knew when it was happening that becoming violent would only cause me to feel more pain, pain for my own actions. It was obviously pointless.

 

I fully realise that I still suffer from the after effects (thats nine years later). I fought a war, returned injured, and never had any psycological damage felt or diagnosed. The end of my marriage of 25 years caused me much more damage. If I believed in excuses, or POP psycology I'd say I was still suffering from PTSD from that event. I fully realize that the chances are good that I will take negetive effects from that event to my grave.

 

That's the damage we can do to each other without lifting a violent finger. I cannot blame Mrs. Harris for reacting as she did, if she reacted in a truely spontanious manner. Without experiance dealing with violence, she stepped over the line, and killed in the heat of the moment. She was never trained how to deal with and control those emotions. Like the PreacherBird, I would have dealt with her less harshly than her "peers". I understand the difficulty possibly the impossibility of an untrained person controlling their emotions in chaotic situations.

 

She was traumatized by the situation and reacted badly. In a similar situation I was traumatized by a similar situation and "shut down" emotionally, which protected me from doing myself damage. I was lucky.

 

None of us can know with certainty how we will react under extreme stress unless we have faced the situation previously.

 

I was never angry, I never blamed the OM for being in love with my wife. How could I? Obviously he experianced the same things I did with her, I was in love with her, we must have been more alike than either are willing to admit.

 

I couldn't physically hurt somebody I was in love with, who I had loved deeply most of my adult life. I didn't stop loving her, being in love with her because she didn't want me any more. That took time, and reflection. When I hurt so badly, I still wanted her to comfort me, but I knew that she wouldn't/couldn't. Those demons I had to fight alone, (for awhile, but that's another story you probably are bored to death hearing).

 

I feel sympathy for BS's. I don't "hate on" the WS's. After all, Scorpions will be Scorpions. Sorry for the ramble. Hopefully some will make some sense of it.

 

LS, thank you for bringing the perspective of your experiences to bear for in your pain lies wisdom.

[RecordProducer]

Athena and Pelican, it's more than obvious that neither of you has children. Only childless people can disrespect life. So, there's no point in asking you: what if your child cheats on his or her spouse some day? Would you still feel the same?

 

It's sad that some people would moralize about infidelity until they get blue int he face, and yet, they have no problem with murder. I bet someone could find a good, subjectively justified reason to kill YOU.

 

Pelican, I already told you that you're talking without making any sense. And this is not the first thread. FYI, I am NOT a cheater.

 

Clara Harris is nothing but a murderer. Some of you may want to bring the wild west back where everyone kills everyone, but thankfully, that's not happening anytime soon. As Woggle said, your mentality is no better than that of the Arabic countries, in which women are stoned to death for cheating.

 

Imagine that you grew up without a mother, and when you were around 6, they told you "Your daddy killed your mommy because she cheated on him." People who have no respect for other people's lives, usually don't love their parents and children either (or they don't have any).

[pelicanpreacher]

Athena and Pelican, it's more than obvious that neither of you has children. Only childless people can disrespect life. So, there's no point in asking you: what if your child cheats on his or her spouse some day? Would you still feel the same?

 

It's sad that some people would moralize about infidelity until they get blue int he face, and yet, they have no problem with murder. I bet someone could find a good, subjectively justified reason to kill YOU.

 

Pelican, I already told you that you're talking without making any sense. And this is not the first thread. FYI, I am NOT a cheater.

 

Clara Harris is nothing but a murderer. Some of you may want to bring the wild west back where everyone kills everyone, but thankfully, that's not happening anytime soon. As Woggle said, your mentality is no better than that of the Arabic countries, in which women are stoned to death for cheating.

 

Imagine that you grew up without a mother, and when you were around 6, they told you "Your daddy killed your mommy because she cheated on him." People who have no respect for other people's lives, usually don't love their parents and children either (or they don't have any).

 

No, I don't have children but my father, who was a strict man, sat me down as a child a long long long time ago and told me there are things you do and things you don't do! I'm not perfect but I know better than to play with anyone else's children but my own! That said, no I do not condone murder and believe in justice for the innocents but I don't believe Clara Harris committed the crime of murder and ,so, should have been legally judged on the merits of the case instead of the emotions you prescribe to. Therein lies the difference between the two of us and the gulf grows wider every time you open your big mouth!

 

As for your being a CHEATER I somehow recall you justifying why you felt the need for fulfillment in the arms of another since you felt disconnected with your significantly older spouse. Am I wrong?

[RecordProducer]

As for your being a CHEATER I somehow recall you justifying why you felt the need for fulfillment in the arms of another since you felt disconnected with your significantly older spouse. Am I wrong?

Yes, you're wrong. My husband broke up with me more than a year before I slept with someoene else. He said we were separated and encouraged me to find someone else. He didn't sleep with me. He knew about every date I had, he knew when I hooked up with the other man - he knew it from me. I never cheated on him. I did what he wanted me to do. I, much like Clara did for seven days, tried for three years to save the marriage. I begged him to give it a chance. But he, who has had two short marriages before ours, didn't want to.

 

Regarding Clara Harris, she was a liar! She tried to defend herself at court by stating she didn't see her husband, she only wanted to damage the car of the mistress. She told her twins it was an accident. She showed no remorse for depriving her children from a father, whom she killed seven days upon discovering the affair. Her 17-year old step-daughter who was in the car when she ran over her husabnd repeatedly, had tried to kill herself four times after the trauma that Clara put her in. The cheater hurt one woman's ego, and this crazy woman destroyed several lives.

[Athena]

Regarding Clara Harris, she was a liar! She tried to defend herself at court by stating she didn't see her husband, she only wanted to damage the car of the mistress. She told her twins it was an accident. She showed no remorse for depriving her children from a father, whom she killed seven days upon discovering the affair. Her 17-year old step-daughter who was in the car when she ran over her husabnd repeatedly, had tried to kill herself four times after the trauma that Clara put her in. The cheater hurt one woman's ego, and this crazy woman destroyed several lives.

 

Woah there! I don't condone her killing her husband -- even though I understand her fury/rage/craziness that drove her to do so.

Your above details on the case, I did not know. I find her behavior as stated above reprehensible.

I initially felt anger at hearing (on this thread) that her H had driven her crazy, and that same craziness had driven her to kill him. From the psychological point of pleading temporary insanity (or in her case of being abused by her H for how long) I would have given her the lessor 2 year sentence, not the maximum 20 year sentence... that is what I said... you are jumping to conclusions by saying that I "have no problem with murder". So -- you are wrong. You came to the wrong conclusion.

 

FYI my father was murdered when I was 9years of age. My mother brought four children up single-handedly. I saw first-hand how the murder of my dad affected my mom and all of us siblings, who effectively lost a mother as well, since she had to work a second job as well as work overtime on the weekends, and on holidays.

 

I also am the mother of two children, and one step-daughter. I know about bringing life into this world, and nurturing it.

I am offended by your words and statements.

[Woggle]

RP is making the most sense in this thread. We live in a supposedly civilized nation that should not allow people to kill each other over a broken heart. I have been cheated on myself and I refrained myself from harming her or the OM. I left and lived well without her which is the best revenge. Cheating is wrong and I believe that a betrayed spouse should be allowed to go to court the next day and get the marriage disolved with no finacial obligation to the cheater but it is never a justifiable reason for murder. Also cheaters as wrong as they are are not on the same level as hardcore criminals like murderers and rapists. They are not a danger to society and if a betrayed partner choose to put up with it and stay that is on them. A cheater can also change as well.

[Athena]

RP is making the most sense in this thread.

 

RecordPlayer might be 'making the most sense' to you, but I am disgusted by her barely veiled ugly 'threats' and 'death wishes' on Pelican, me, any children we might have, and ourselves:

Athena and Pelican, it's more than obvious that neither of you has children. Only childless people can disrespect life. So, there's no point in asking you: what if your child cheats on his or her spouse some day? Would you still feel the same?

 

It's sad that some people would moralize about infidelity until they get blue int he face, and yet, they have no problem with murder. I bet someone could find a good, subjectively justified reason to kill YOU.

 

How would she feel if I looked upon her face in her photograph and wished a nasty death on her two boys, or her mother, or herself, for saying nasty things like that here???? Then wish some other bad event on her like rape or a bad accident that leaves her disabled? I am sure her little tirade here on the thread would be all worth it?

I find it despicable

[RecordProducer]

I would have given her the lessor 2 year sentence, not the maximum 20 year sentence... that is what I said... you are jumping to conclusions by saying that I "have no problem with murder".

You would have given her two years - that speaks enough about how you view her murder. And I will ask you again, since you have children, would you say the same thing if your child was a cheater? What if you overheard your child's spouse saying "I am going to kill X (your child) and be back from jail in two years."

 

It's really sad that you who should know well the permanent consequences of losing a parent due to a murder would punish someone with only two years. That's like saying it's not such a big deal to take somebody's life. The victim dies and the murderer only loses two years of his or her life.

 

Yes, by saying two years is enough for a murder out of passion, you're practically justifying her actions. I don't know why you're offended by what I said. If you think this particular case should have been sentenced to two years, then you think that all cheaters could be murdered and the murderers should be out in two years. More than half of married people have cheated at some point.

 

Why does Clara deserve special treatment and compassion as a murderer? She is just a violent woman who couldn't stand to see her suburban ego hurt and resorted to brutal murder with his child as a witness. She is a monster. Competition was more important to her than her own children. It wasn't about love - because you can't murder someone you truly love. I am angry at my estranged husband, but I would never want to see him hurt or ill, let alone to cause him physical pain or death.

 

OK, everybody, we apparently disagree on some things, so let's drop the personal attacks now, ok?. This is emotionally draining. I really didn't need to be reminded of my marriage and explain that my cheating was not really cheating. Not because I mind Pelican's comment, I really don't, just because I go through the same pain every time I think about my husband.

[RecordProducer]

RecordPlayer might be 'making the most sense' to you, but I am disgusted by her barely veiled ugly 'threats' and 'death wishes' on Pelican, me, any children we might have, and ourselves:

 

How would she feel if I looked upon her face in her photograph and wished a nasty death on her two boys, or her mother, or herself, for saying nasty things like that here???? Then wish some other bad event on her like rape or a bad accident that leaves her disabled? I am sure her little tirade here on the thread would be all worth it?

I find it despicable

HUh?!?!?! :confused:

 

On the contrary! I told you that if you think a murderer should get away with only two years, how would you feel if your child were a cheater! I don't want your children to die, cheaters or not. You apparently think that if your child becomes a cheater someday... well, you finish the sentence. What do you think their spouses should do? I think they should simply divorce them, not harm your children.

 

Uhmmmmm no! Nobody gets out of this life alive and, though we may escape punishment in the public eye, we all suffer from our misdeeds!

Pel, you think Hitler got what he deserved for killing 6,000,000 Jews and causing a war that killed over 40,000,000? His suicide doesn't make me feel better about the people who died.

 

Altogether, I am sad that so many people in this thread rose against civilized behavior and spoke in favor of barbaric, impulsive violence.

[bentnotbroken]

I am a mother and I understand the feelings perfectly. While I don't advocate violence, let's just say I wouldn't have been upset with a lesser sentence.

[Blue Eyed Brain]

Because rational people during irrational times do not become so unraveled that they would commit a violent act. That is a state of immaturity and disfunction in oneself, not the situations they encounter.

 

If you feel violent, seek help.

[Reggie]

Only childless people can disrespect life? What an absurd statement. Have you been living in a cave? I can think ofcountless murders that have kids.