taylor Posted March 19, 2009 Posted March 19, 2009 As a man............I always believed that the sex part would be the worst, but i now believe that my wife giving her heart to another person was more damaging than the sex. Actually both are bad but in different ways. As a male its the idea another man is using my wife's body....touching all over her and yes the deposit of you know what in the you know where!!! Looking at my wife is never the same even though she had sex prior to the marriage. Having sex performing oral...something I used to love doing and she would have to hit me on the head to stop....now I just hesitate before because I don't want to taste the other man!!! BUT!!!!! Now I see that the emotional part actually hurt me even more. By giving her heart/emotions to another man long term. Its like she divorced me and married the other man but I didn't know it!! Recovery required basically starting over....dating in a sense while still married and living together. The purging of the emotional connection with the other man takes a lot of time and as you know!!!....Us males are never patient about that!!! The emotional affairs usually end up with the betrayed spouse doing all the work to recover because the wayward spouse still has one foot outside the marriage. Physical affairs usually the wayward does the work or at least it just seems that way. EA/PA is just a double whammy that is a marriage killer!! This is the best response I have ever read comparing EA's and PA's. Thank you.
Author Snowflower Posted March 19, 2009 Author Posted March 19, 2009 2sure, Wow, that must have been so hard to overcome twice. I truly feel for you and commend you for giving your husband a third? chance. I can safely say that I will never judge a BS in terms of how they handle their spouse's infidelity EVER. It is truly a personal decision. I have seen posters on this forum and others that I subscribe to that do seem to come across to me as 'bitter' or 'uncompromising' in light of their OWN experiences with infidelity with their OWN spouses and they tend to project this hostility on to others. If someone decides to try to work it out with their spouse after infidelity, good for them and I hope it works out for the best. On the other hand, if they decide to separate/divorce, then perhaps that is the best for them. Despite the pop culture that we all live in these days, infidelity is still a big taboo and that is why people have such strong feelings about it-whether they have experienced it first hand or not. I hope things are going well for you and your H now. I'm so sorry it had to happen twice to you. I guess ultimatums work, which I am so glad to see is the case for you. Sometimes you have to play hardball. I found that to be true in my case. I will keep your experience in mind as I continue to heal, begin to trust him again and move forward. I have laid out the ultimatum for my H that if he even comes CLOSE to behaving in this way again (there were some other issues that I haven't gone into here), that I will be done. I don't care if I have to move back in with my mom to get away from him-and I haven't lived at home in 20 years! Knowing what I know now, I am reasonably sure I could carry through on this ultimatum. It would simply be too painful for me to go through twice. I'n glad that you are persevering though!
2sure Posted March 19, 2009 Posted March 19, 2009 We are in pretty good shape to be honest. I just wanted to tell you what happened not to scare you , but because you seem to have the same attitude as I do: NO BODY DIED . I just feel I didnt treat it seriously enough the first time. The second time, it was just stupid text messages. High school crap really. Many people might have overlooked it....But I treated it as though it was a full on pa/ea . Thats what finally made my otherwise wonderful H realize that the small attention he was seeking was harmful and not worth it.
65tr6 Posted March 19, 2009 Posted March 19, 2009 Yes, our marriage WAS in serious trouble 8 months ago. I do not believe it is nearly so much now. If things continue as they have, we will eventually recover and be in a much better marriage as a result.. Yes I see your update now. I agree it WAS in serious trouble. But not anymore... He even forwarded her emails to me to read. . I like the part where husband was indeed very honest and forthcoming. I think you are doing great. I hope you keep posting here.
Meaplus3 Posted March 19, 2009 Posted March 19, 2009 Honestly, I think an EA is much worse. It' one thing to give your body to another but, to give your heart and mind that's a whole other ball game IMO. Worse case Scenerio.. EA and PA combo. Mea:)
65tr6 Posted March 19, 2009 Posted March 19, 2009 BUT!!!!! Now I see that the emotional part actually hurt me even more. By giving her heart/emotions to another man long term. Its like she divorced me and married the other man but I didn't know it!! Yes I agree with you to a large extent BUT..... The affairs are all based on a fantasy. Having relationship with someone while still being with your husband/family. I am not questioning the feelings at all. It is because your wife (or my wife in my case !) let themselves go full throttle. I dont know if they gave their heart or emotions to another man long term. I highly doubt that. They thought that way during the A but once it comes out in the open, I think few waywards realize life is more than just "feelings". I will probably get flamed for this...but anyway...the waywards are not "normal" during the A. They are "flawed" and need help. It bothered me a lot in the beginning but the more we rip the affair open, the more my wife says "I cant believe what I did...Totally stupid". Yes I agree though, in most cases such EAs are a marriage killer for two reasons... 1) WWs are checked out and they wont to stay in the marriage anyway once the affair comes out in the open 2) BSs have hard time taking/winning such waywards back. But to me it is no different from a pure PA from the standpoint of betrayal the spouse endures. The emotional affairs usually end up with the betrayed spouse doing all the work to recover because the wayward spouse still has one foot outside the marriage. Agree 100%. Not all can do it, assuming that they decide to stay in the marriage. All the more reason not to have too many expectations...Betrayed spouse (no, i am not feeling sorry for myself) is pretty much left to clean up all the mess...alteast in the beginning...What was the saying again ? Life is not fair ?
taylor Posted March 19, 2009 Posted March 19, 2009 I have been married nearly 19 years. It has been almost 4 months since D-Day (my husband confessed to me-thank God) when I found out my H had a brief ONS variety A with a colleague on a business trip. The night (it was a few months later) he told me was the absolute worst night of my life--even though I had known something was seriously wrong before this. Like so many others, I simply couldn't believe an affair was possible. My story is a little different than so many affairs you read about here in that almost the reverse happened in my husband's A in a lot of respects. Yes, we had problems in our marriage that didn't really become obvious until afterward; he admitted that he had pretty much checked out of our marriage, etc. In my case, my H was 'friends' with this colleague-yes even this friendship had crossed some boundaries in the beginning-but once he really crossed the line with the ONS, he realized he had made a terrible mistake and pulled back from the situation. There was no emotional involvement, no EA as it were, which is what is saving our marriage. Despite his mistake, my H wanted to salvage our marriage. After his ONS, my husband simply shut down emotionally--this is about the time I realized something was really wrong-although I had felt him distancing himself from me for months beforehand. He became depressed, worked long hours and just acted not like himself. I found out later that while he pulled back from any physical contact with the MW (easy because she lived several hours away), he still considered her a friend and would call her, text her, email her. I found the evidence on our cellphone bill-there were lots of calls. What I like about this forum is that OW/MW-type posters often contribute. I had only met the MW in my situation once-long before things happened and I have never confronted her. I don't want to--the less I know about her, the better. What I do know and this is a topic for another thread-is that she was definitely the 'aggressor' in this situation. I have read on other threads about the emotional involvement of women in an A and she was definitely involved emotionally. I found a stupid quote/poem that she had sent to him that must have summed-up how she felt about him. It made me want to throw up. I looked it up online again later just read it--something about not living your life with regrets--she wanted him to ditch me for her. Fortunately, my husband was not involved emotionally with her beyond friendship. I know this to be true because he "let her go" very easily/quickly after he confessed. He had said over and over that he doesn't miss her and was relieved it was over. There is much more I could post here, reading back over this it sounds like I am seriously minimizing and I'm not-this has hurt me, my husband and our marriage very badly. I just want to say that even though the PA was terrible-I think in time I can get through it and heal. If my H had had an EA, I am pretty sure I would have never recovered and an eventual divorce would have been the outcome-no matter how much I still loved my husband. What I don't understand is when people will say it was "only" an EA when they are talking about their own WS and that they are grateful that it hadn't turned into a PA. To each his own (or her own) but it would have been almost impossible for me to try to connect with my H again. It would have been absolute torture for me to have to wait for him "to fall out of love" with the MW before he could work on our marriage with me. An EA seems like the ultimate betrayal! Sex is sex, after all. I'm not saying there weren't some pretty ugly thoughts that were going through my husband's mind the night he committed PA, but again, it was on a physical level, not in his heart or his soul. I don't know, some people might disagree with me--but I could never have had any type of normal marital relationship with him again if he had been emotionally unfaithful. The thought of trying to be intimate with him and have him wishing for/thinking of her would have been absolutely devastating and a likely deal-breaker for me. OP, I know you are in pain right now but I believe you are in denial about the EA aspect of your husband's affair. You are minimizing your husband's emotional involvement with his coworker. His affair was both an EA and a PA. This was not a typical ONS. A ONS is an affair with someone you have little to no contact with before or after the sexual encounter. Bar pick ups and happenchance meetings. This is not what happened in your husband's case. He was friends with this woman before the sexual encounter and he wanted to remain friends with her after the encounter. You even admit that the friendship crossed boundaries prior to the PA. Sorry to tell you this, but that is an EA...a friendship that crosses boundaries. Friendships cross lines into EA's every day and EA's cross lines into PA's every day. It's the natural progression of most affairs,(with of course the exception of those affairs I would call opportunistic affairs, ie, bar pickups, with random people). The fact that your husband had already CHECKED OUT OF THE MARRIAGE convinces me even more that he became emotionally involved with this woman to some degree. This is the "gold standard" of EA's. The cheating partner gradually transfers emotions from his spouse to the affair partner, and in doing so, checks out of his marriage more and more. More evidence of an EA is the fact that he shut down emotionally after the affair...grew even more distant from you than he was prior to the affair. Yes, he pulled back from his involvement with this woman because he knew it was wrong, BUT he still had feelings for her..was still attached to her. He was going thru what's called WITHDRAWAL. It throws a person into depression due to the loss of the affair partner. Of course he pulled back from the physical involvement, but he wasn't quite so willing to pull back from the emotional involvement. He wanted to continue the emotional involvement in the name of "friendship" so he continued to text her and call her. If a man decides to end a sexual relationship with a woman he doesn't turn around and pursue her for a platonic friendship. Why bother? He could get that with his buddies. Your husband was still emotionally involved with her, despite his decision to end the physical relationship. And consider this for a moment: Why would your husband want to continue a friendship with a woman who was so emotionally involved with him. You would think he would have been running for the hills to get as far away from her as possible after a ONS. How many guys actually stick around to chit-chat after a ONS. Another thought: Do you really think a guy could go back to being platonic friends with a woman who is emotionally involved with him and with whom he had sex? C'mon...let's get real here. You are portraying their relationship as totally one-sided..very lop-sided. But, this woman didn't get that emotionally involved with your husband all by herself. Someone coaxed her along...perhaps led her on...guess who? How do you know she was the aggressor? Did your husband tell you that? Just because you found a love note from her? How do you know he didn't send her a few love notes? You don't know. Again, this woman wasn't having a love affair all by herself. Of course he is relieved..he had alot weighing on his conscience before he confessed...GUILT. It's possible that once your husband had sex with this woman he realized he didn't want the relationship to progress further and ended it. Only he knows that. But that does not negate the possibility that he did not become emotionally involved with her prior to the PA. The fact that the two of you were emotionally distant and the fact that he checked out of the marriage prior to the affair leads me to believe he was getting his emotional needs met by this woman..the EA turned to a PA...and then his guilt got the best of him. Some say it doesn't matter whether it was an EA or a PA. I think it does. Recovery from each, like Owl pointed out, is much different. Each aspect of the affair needs to be addressed. If you overlook or dismiss the EA aspect, you gloss over marital issues that need to be addressed.
taylor Posted March 19, 2009 Posted March 19, 2009 In Like Flynn--you just made my point. I completely agree. Even though the PA was/is the worst part for me to deal with in my H's affair, at least I know his feelings for me were still intact. Delusional. Your husband F**** another woman and you think his feelings for you were still intact???? Do you think with every thrust into her he was saying to himself, "I love my wife...I love my wife..I love my wife soooo much?" You said your husband CHECKED OUT of the marriage and was EMOTIONALLY DISTANT. How INTACT were is feelings???
pkn06002 Posted March 19, 2009 Posted March 19, 2009 I will probably get flamed for this...but anyway...the waywards are not "normal" during the A. They are "flawed" and need help. If it makes you feel better and gets you through the day thinking your WS was flawed than have at it, but we are not broken flawed people that need help. The mind is a complicated places and allows for the ability to be involved with more than one person at a time. BS just happen to not like the idea they were not the main focus of our life. To the OP your husband was in a EA don't fool yourself.
taylor Posted March 19, 2009 Posted March 19, 2009 I will probably get flamed for this...but anyway...the waywards are not "normal" during the A. They are "flawed" and need help. No flaming here, 65, But... Having experienced an EA I can say that the "feelings" a WW feels are very similar to "first love, falling in love" feelings. These feelings are very powerful so as to override logical, rational thinking. But these feelings are just as "normal" or "abnormal" as any person's are who falls "madly" or "insanely" or "blindly" in love, regardless of the circumstances. It is just as difficult to "get over" the "in love" feelings of an affair as it is to "get over" the "in love" feelings of any new relationship that ends abruptly. I will agree an affair partner's thinking and actions are "flawed" because they contradict rational, logical thought. And I do agree that affair partners need help to get back on the path of right thinking. Getting back on that path of right thinking entails going thru the withdrawal, coming out of the fog, detaching from the affair partner, and looking at other feasible solutions to marital problems or internal issues that led them down the wrong path to begin with. Unfortunately, it is the marital partner, the BS, who has the arduous, unenviable task of helping the WS do this, if he wants to remain in the marriage. He has the most invested in it, therefore, the job becomes his, sorry to say. It most definately heaps alot on the BS...acceptance, forgiveness, understanding, and patience. A very tall order many BS would rather just walk away from. And many do.
65tr6 Posted March 19, 2009 Posted March 19, 2009 If it makes you feel better and gets you through the day thinking your WS was flawed than have at it, but we are not broken flawed people that need help. The mind is a complicated places and allows for the ability to be involved with more than one person at a time. BS just happen to not like the idea they were not the main focus of our life. lol. pkn, you are funny. No, it does not make me feel any better or make my day get through any better. It is perfectly normal to have those feelings....BUT when you start acting on them...then you start destroying everyone in your path, your spouse, your familly, your marriage. Like I said I am not questioning any of those feelings. I am sure those are real and true. Yes I agree with you 100%, you can be involved with more than one person at the same time. But then in life, there are rights and then there are wrongs. Pick your choice. We all think (most of us anyway) that having those feelings for someone and acting on those while still being married to someone else is wrong. If you make a wrong choice, to me that is not "normal". I am I wrong ?
pkn06002 Posted March 19, 2009 Posted March 19, 2009 Here is what I find "interesting" about calling WS's flawed, their love in the affair not real etc... etc... These are all the SAME feelings we had for our spouses when we meet them! But what those feelings are magically NOT REAL when they are in an affair? No are just inappropriate but they are REAL all the same. If you claim they are not then you need to accept those feelings your WS had for you were also NOT REAL. We are not flawed were are not broken we are folks that let our emotions get the best of us. Emotions are FAR from a logical, relational way of thinking. Those illogical, irrational feelings led us down an inappropriate path. If the "right path" (that back to your BS) is actually the right one is up to the WS and the BS to determine. We crossed posts so let me say something. At one point I would look at this black/white I can no longer make the distinction. You consider it wrong I consider it something I did, plan and simple. I know how the affair made me feel and I cannot consider that wrong. I know how the affair effected my marriage that I consider wrong. So a very jumble of good and bad feelings. How do you sort them into something you can put a single label on? I can see how a BS can put a single label on it(you have a much clearer single view of the events), but from being on the other side and getting all the benefits and fallout I cannot. I know for a BS what I am saying may make NO SENSE. But you know I told my OW one time she is both the BEST and WORST relationship I have ever had. There is a lot of duplicity in an affair. This is from one WS's view or the world.
2sure Posted March 19, 2009 Posted March 19, 2009 A lot of times I think the WS are not in love with OW - they may say it, act it , and even feel it. But what they are in love with is not OW - it is the affair itself. They are in love with the idea that are lovable, they enjoy the attention OW gives. They miss it when the affair ends. From reading here, from the WS that have been able to walk away from an affair - after the fact, they seem to come to this conclusion. Not to mention the many marriages that are affected by multiple affairs. The OW merely changes. Its a kind of love, but its self love if anything.
Athena Posted March 19, 2009 Posted March 19, 2009 It is possible that your H was emotionally involved with the OW. But what difference does it make to you NOW?! It's not like he is telling you to your face that he is still pining for her and wants her... no, he has obviously made the decision to stay with you and to work on the marriage. Let me tell you a similar affair my husband had with a colleague of his... he took a colleague on a weekend trip to another country and stayed in a 5 star hotel. They drove there and back, and had plenty of talking time. On the Monday after that, H tried to hide away from said colleague and told his buddy to answer his phone, and if it was a woman, to tell her he had gone to England for the week... the buddy did this, but it wasn't the OW, it was ME calling the office to speak to my husband. So -- after I got off the phone, his buddy gave H the message that his wife called, and H had to call me back. Now faced with this very weird explanation of my H suddenly disappearing from his job to 'go to England' forced my husband to admit to me his weekend 'ONS' affair... However, H used his "being bust" by his W to inform the OW that his W found out about them, and he could NO longer be lovers/friends/have any contact.... (he didn't want any more contact with her after he had 'got into her panties' which is why he got his buddy to answer the phone and say he had left the country). so -- perhaps your H admitted the affair to you, to save himself from having to 'be there as a friend' to that woman after said done sexual deed. YOU made him stop 'being the gentleman' to OW so it let him off the friendship hook, since he might have only wanted to be 'friends' with her to be able to live with himself; that he didn't just 'use' this OW for her body... but 'liked' her enough to continue to be friendly.
65tr6 Posted March 19, 2009 Posted March 19, 2009 I will agree an affair partner's thinking and actions are "flawed" because they contradict rational, logical thought. And I do agree that affair partners need help to get back on the path of right thinking. I meant this part right here taylor not sure why it was misunderstood. I must have messed up. It is the ACTIONS that make them not so "normal".
65tr6 Posted March 19, 2009 Posted March 19, 2009 Some say it doesn't matter whether it was an EA or a PA. I think it does. Recovery from each, like Owl pointed out, is much different. Each aspect of the affair needs to be addressed. If you overlook or dismiss the EA aspect, you gloss over marital issues that need to be addressed. Nice post taylor. I agree with you that OPs husband may be involved emotioanally too... To your point above, I think you should treat EVERY affair as the worst case scenario. That it has both elements in it. I dont think there are too many affairs out there that are purely PA unless it was ONS with a stranger or a prostitute - and you never see that person again. (i think travelgirl had made this point earlier and I agree) OP, let me ask you this....You think your husband is not emotionally involved, what about the OW ? You think she was not emotionally involved ? I doubt that. Women, rarely sleep with men, without connecting emotionally first.
Author Snowflower Posted March 19, 2009 Author Posted March 19, 2009 OP, I know you are in pain right now but I believe you are in denial about the EA aspect of your husband's affair. You are minimizing your husband's emotional involvement with his coworker. His affair was both an EA and a PA. This was not a typical ONS. A ONS is an affair with someone you have little to no contact with before or after the sexual encounter. Bar pick ups and happenchance meetings. This is not what happened in your husband's case. He was friends with this woman before the sexual encounter and he wanted to remain friends with her after the encounter. You even admit that the friendship crossed boundaries prior to the PA. Sorry to tell you this, but that is an EA...a friendship that crosses boundaries. Friendships cross lines into EA's every day and EA's cross lines into PA's every day. It's the natural progression of most affairs,(with of course the exception of those affairs I would call opportunistic affairs, ie, bar pickups, with random people). The fact that your husband had already CHECKED OUT OF THE MARRIAGE convinces me even more that he became emotionally involved with this woman to some degree. This is the "gold standard" of EA's. The cheating partner gradually transfers emotions from his spouse to the affair partner, and in doing so, checks out of his marriage more and more. More evidence of an EA is the fact that he shut down emotionally after the affair...grew even more distant from you than he was prior to the affair. Yes, he pulled back from his involvement with this woman because he knew it was wrong, BUT he still had feelings for her..was still attached to her. He was going thru what's called WITHDRAWAL. It throws a person into depression due to the loss of the affair partner. Of course he pulled back from the physical involvement, but he wasn't quite so willing to pull back from the emotional involvement. He wanted to continue the emotional involvement in the name of "friendship" so he continued to text her and call her. If a man decides to end a sexual relationship with a woman he doesn't turn around and pursue her for a platonic friendship. Why bother? He could get that with his buddies. Your husband was still emotionally involved with her, despite his decision to end the physical relationship. And consider this for a moment: Why would your husband want to continue a friendship with a woman who was so emotionally involved with him. You would think he would have been running for the hills to get as far away from her as possible after a ONS. How many guys actually stick around to chit-chat after a ONS. Another thought: Do you really think a guy could go back to being platonic friends with a woman who is emotionally involved with him and with whom he had sex? C'mon...let's get real here. You are portraying their relationship as totally one-sided..very lop-sided. But, this woman didn't get that emotionally involved with your husband all by herself. Someone coaxed her along...perhaps led her on...guess who? How do you know she was the aggressor? Did your husband tell you that? Just because you found a love note from her? How do you know he didn't send her a few love notes? You don't know. Again, this woman wasn't having a love affair all by herself. Of course he is relieved..he had alot weighing on his conscience before he confessed...GUILT. It's possible that once your husband had sex with this woman he realized he didn't want the relationship to progress further and ended it. Only he knows that. But that does not negate the possibility that he did not become emotionally involved with her prior to the PA. The fact that the two of you were emotionally distant and the fact that he checked out of the marriage prior to the affair leads me to believe he was getting his emotional needs met by this woman..the EA turned to a PA...and then his guilt got the best of him. Some say it doesn't matter whether it was an EA or a PA. I think it does. Recovery from each, like Owl pointed out, is much different. Each aspect of the affair needs to be addressed. If you overlook or dismiss the EA aspect, you gloss over marital issues that need to be addressed. Hi taylor, thanks for taking the time to respond to my post. Gee, and I didn't think I could possibly feel any worse than I already did! I agree with you here in some ways but in others I do not. Like I said, I have not posted everything here-it is too long and some of it is too personal. I have read in another thread, taylor, where you have talked about the very long (months) process it took for you to get over your EA. In my husband's case, it was not like that. You admitted some real desire to have "gone all the way" with the OM in your situation and how much you missed him once it ended. I guess my H made the terrible mistake of going all the way with "her" early on and then that stopped things right there. There was not this wistfulness for him of "how would it be with her, etc." He made that mistake and didn't need to repeat it. I never said it wasn't inappropriate, destructive, or whatever considering what my husband did. Yes, there were problems between us. He admitted to checking out of our relationship. But, that doesn't mean he necessarily "checked in" with her. The barriers were simply lowered to make room for a huge mistake on his part. My H and I both know that if things had been better between us, none of this would have happened. Why he remained friends with her afterward is complicated. It has to do somewhat with him and issues he was facing. That is something I won't discuss here because it is too personal-even for an anonymous site like this. Ironically, the phone calls, texting, emailing afterward bothers me the least about the whole thing. My H literally thought they could continue as friends after the whole PA--until I told him absolutely not. He admits his thinking was clouded, BUT IT DIDN'T MEAN HE LOVED HER. The reason I don't think believe it was an EA (beyond friendship) was because he loved me. Thank you for your other rather graphic post where you said something along the lines of "while he was f****** her, he was probably saying, I love my wife." I'm not that stupid--I don't even want to know what thoughts were going through his mind at that time. After we reconciled, he was/has been completely devoted to me. He realized it was a total cluster-f*** he had gotten himself into. We are recovering from this, but I am not delusional, the PA was serious enough. To answer your other question, how do I know that she was the aggressor? Because she was constantly pursuing him. Every weekend she would ask him, askying "come to my house," or "can I come see you?" And you know where he was? Home with me, despite all our problems. It was the main reason I didn't suspect an affair was because he was home with me. She lives several hours away. Yes, he led her on and when I am feeling more compassionate, I can feel almost sorry for her for how quickly she was dropped as a friend.
Author Snowflower Posted March 19, 2009 Author Posted March 19, 2009 Delusional. Your husband F**** another woman and you think his feelings for you were still intact???? Do you think with every thrust into her he was saying to himself, "I love my wife...I love my wife..I love my wife soooo much?" You said your husband CHECKED OUT of the marriage and was EMOTIONALLY DISTANT. How INTACT were is feelings??? taylor, this was simply cruel on your part. What gives? Yes, I ask myself the question almost everyday, "if he loved me, how could he do this?" BECAUSE IT WAS A MISTAKE ON HIS PART.
Author Snowflower Posted March 19, 2009 Author Posted March 19, 2009 Nice post taylor. I agree with you that OPs husband may be involved emotioanally too... To your point above, I think you should treat EVERY affair as the worst case scenario. That it has both elements in it. I dont think there are too many affairs out there that are purely PA unless it was ONS with a stranger or a prostitute - and you never see that person again. (i think travelgirl had made this point earlier and I agree) OP, let me ask you this....You think your husband is not emotionally involved, what about the OW ? You think she was not emotionally involved ? I doubt that. Women, rarely sleep with men, without connecting emotionally first. Yes, she was emotionally involved. She wanted my husband to dump me and run off with her. She got what she deserved when she was dumped without warning. Although I can almost feel sorry for her, if I'm feeling compassionate. I know what it feels like to be hurt.
Owl Posted March 19, 2009 Posted March 19, 2009 I highly doubt that Taylor intended to be cruel. What she's trying to tell you is that your situation...as you have described it...does NOT sound like "just a PA" to her...or, honestly, to most of us who have been here a long time. It's POSSIBLE. But it's also ludicrously unlikely. You're not taking into account the sheer addictiveness of affairs. Nor are you considering that while some affairs may START as just PA...it's rare that people can truly keep from being intimate emotionally when they're being intimate physically. Add into that the "flags" that you've described...continued contact with OW after the affair...no sign of "withdrawls" at the end of the affair on your WS's part, etc... I too truly think that you don't have all the facts...I suspect that you're deliberately (if not consciously) 'minimizing' this whole thing to allow yourself to be in a position to forgive him. We've seen that scenario here as well. Posters here are doing so to help you...they don't gain anything from posting advice to you. Some may enjoy 'baiting' people...but Taylor isn't one of them...nor am I. Give some thought to what I've said. How can you KNOW what he's felt/feeling for her, without relying on what he's TOLD you, or tried to show you? You can't trust what he says...because he's most likely to lie about the whole thing. Actions are what tell the truth...and continued contact plus no withdrawl make this a very, VERY big red flag to me.
Author Snowflower Posted March 19, 2009 Author Posted March 19, 2009 Thanks, owl for your reply. My apologies to taylor but her reply was very harsh when it wasn't necessary. I'm not stupid. Yes, I have to somewhat take my husband's word (to a certain degree) for what happened. I also did some "investigating" myself at the beginning. I continue to check up on him in ways he usually doesn't know about. What else am I supposed to do if I don't take his word for it, call her? I was there witnessing things that at the time I didn't understand, but now I do.I don't think she would tell me the truth either if I were to call her--as I said before, she was emotionally involved and was desperate to try to get him away from me. Why would she feel compelled to tell me the truth? My H has not had contact with her in over 3 months, except on 2 work-related occasions, unavoidable, where my H told me immediately. It was one of the very first things I stipulated at the outset-that there be no further contact. Where did I say otherwise that he was still talking to her? Another poster, I think it was 65, asked me the same question. I think I understand what you mean by "withdrawal"-that process where someone has to get over the A. Since there was no real emotional involvement on his part, there was no need for a real "withdrawal." Withdrawing from a work colleague for whom you have no feelings for beyond friendship would not be that difficult. As for him having a PA with her, it has been discussed here on this thread and many others and other forums that it is entirely possible for men and women to have sex without emotional attachment. We all know this. As I said in my initial post, sex is sex. Do emotional attachments form before sex happens, of course they do-but they don't have to. Do emotional attachments happen after the PA occurs-again, of course but not necessarily. If my husband had become emotionally attached to her (as in love or a real emotional connection) don't you think he would have been trying to continue the PA while becoming further attached emotionally? After all, he had already violated his marriage to me by participating in the PA the first time, what would stop him from continuing the A, guilty feelings aside? Again, because there was nothing there feelings-wise for him besides friendship! This has turned into a great discussion!
Sparta8 Posted March 19, 2009 Posted March 19, 2009 This thread is spot on issues I was thinking about this morning. My wife had an EA almost a year ago that would have become a PA if the OM's spouse had not agreed to contact her and let her know the OM had had a dozen or more affairs. Even with that added brake and a lot of work on my part, the affair locomotive still took about 2 months to come to a stop. She told me shortly after DDay that there had been PA with someone 18 years ago. She has said she was not really very interested in the 1st affair OM (5 months, 4 meetings, 2 with sex). The more recent EA progressed very fast and was very intense. It seems that in her mind, the 2nd affair seems to have been much worse than the first one, even though the 1st one was physical and the 2nd one did not get that far (except phone and internet sex). From what I can tell, she may think the much higher degree of emotional attachment with the 2nd affair OM makes that one much worse. But it could be that her memory of the 2nd affair is just much fresher than that of the 1st affair.
OpenBook Posted March 19, 2009 Posted March 19, 2009 Delusional. I think that some delusion is actually necessary for a BS to even be able to stay in and work on the M after infidelity. My hat's off to the OP for even trying. And in this case, I believe the H did have both an EA and a PA. I also believe it doesn't matter. What matters is what the H is doing about it now. He has put it behind him, is remorseful, focused on the OP, and working on the M to the OP's satisfaction. And in the end, that's all that counts.
travelgirl Posted March 20, 2009 Posted March 20, 2009 I too truly think that you don't have all the facts...I suspect that you're deliberately (if not consciously) 'minimizing' this whole thing to allow yourself to be in a position to forgive him. We've seen that scenario here as well. Owl, I agree with this because I remember being there myself.... Snowflower, an EA doesn't have to be over the top "in love" signed sealed and delivered. There are obvious varying degrees to different EA's and PA's. I remember seeing the warning signs of EA's with colleages and what the borderline friendship to work wife/EA was. They were little things like if your husband heard a funny joke, who would he think to tell first - you or his female colleage? If he had a few minutes of downtime, would he check in on you or call/email the female colleage to see "what's up?" Were there things he talked about with her he would never talk with about you. Doesn't have to be sexual - even past relationships, feelings about family, his self doubts, etc... Did she talk about things with him, he would never tell you? There are lots of things.... Just because he wasn't "in love" with her doesn't mean it wasn't an EA. He needed emotional stability from someone because like you said, he checked out of the marriage and you weren't giving it to each other. This is where an EA makes a marriage that is bad worse or an okay marriage bad. He took energy he should have been giving you to her - whether it was just friendly in his eyes or not. She made him feel good, special, she wanted him where you really didn't. That is how he probably saw it. He probably thought it was innocent up until the ONS and THEN realized, wow - this went too far. But it isn't like they were just chums and happen to find each other naked in bed one night. They both made the decision to go forward with a PA and STILL talk afterwards which makes me leary that you don't know the entire truth. And your husband's continued thought that they were "just friends" before and after - telling you and your MC this, concerns me. What does your therapist say? Does he/she honestly not think there was an EA here? Rarely would an OW get emotionally attached to someone who just acted like a "chum." He had to reciprocate on some level but I think he hasn't acknowledged it because most men don't understand what EA's are. Plus, he is still trying to recover from the guilt of the PA so he doesn't want to add another burden on you or him. At least, that is my take on the situation. I recommend this book for you and him to read... Emotional Infidelity: How to Affair-Proof your marriage and 10 Other Secrets to a Great Relationship. It is very eye opening as to what an EA is and how it really does breakdown a marriage without either one of you realizing it. It REALLY helps couples to move forward and how to refocus on your marriage and stop relying on outside sources for your emotional fulfillment. That all said snowflower, it sounds like you are both trying to make it work and good for you! Hopefully with continued therapy and maybe some reading, he might be a little more willing to open up about his feelings/needs during that time. Let him know that it WILL help the recovery process, not hinder it. Good Luck!!
Meaplus3 Posted March 20, 2009 Posted March 20, 2009 I think that some delusion is actually necessary for a BS to even be able to stay in and work on the M after infidelity. My hat's off to the OP for even trying. And in this case, I believe the H did have both an EA and a PA. I also believe it doesn't matter. What matters is what the H is doing about it now. He has put it behind him, is remorseful, focused on the OP, and working on the M to the OP's satisfaction. And in the end, that's all that counts. Well said Open I agree. Mea:)
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