Which is worse, an EA or PA?

[Snowflower]

Hi all, I have been visiting this forum for a little while now and thought I would join and introduce myself. Such great threads here and it seems like a lot of posters really take the time to post and respond. I wanted to briefly share my story and get some feedback and then I will begin responding to other threads when I feel I have something to contribute.

 

I am unfortunately another victim of infidelity. I will keep my story short because after reading so many stories here and on other forums, I don't feel like my situation is nearly as bad as it could have been-not that it really makes it less painful.

 

I have been married nearly 19 years. It has been almost 4 months since D-Day (my husband confessed to me-thank God) when I found out my H had a brief ONS variety A with a colleague on a business trip. The night (it was a few months later) he told me was the absolute worst night of my life--even though I had known something was seriously wrong before this. Like so many others, I simply couldn't believe an affair was possible.

 

My story is a little different than so many affairs you read about here in that almost the reverse happened in my husband's A in a lot of respects. Yes, we had problems in our marriage that didn't really become obvious until afterward; he admitted that he had pretty much checked out of our marriage, etc. In my case, my H was 'friends' with this colleague-yes even this friendship had crossed some boundaries in the beginning-but once he really crossed the line with the ONS, he realized he had made a terrible mistake and pulled back from the situation. There was no emotional involvement, no EA as it were, which is what is saving our marriage. Despite his mistake, my H wanted to salvage our marriage.

 

After his ONS, my husband simply shut down emotionally--this is about the time I realized something was really wrong-although I had felt him distancing himself from me for months beforehand. He became depressed, worked long hours and just acted not like himself. I found out later that while he pulled back from any physical contact with the MW (easy because she lived several hours away), he still considered her a friend and would call her, text her, email her. I found the evidence on our cellphone bill-there were lots of calls.

 

What I like about this forum is that OW/MW-type posters often contribute. I had only met the MW in my situation once-long before things happened and I have never confronted her. I don't want to--the less I know about her, the better. What I do know and this is a topic for another thread-is that she was definitely the 'aggressor' in this situation. I have read on other threads about the emotional involvement of women in an A and she was definitely involved emotionally. I found a stupid quote/poem that she had sent to him that must have summed-up how she felt about him. It made me want to throw up. I looked it up online again later just read it--something about not living your life with regrets--she wanted him to ditch me for her.

 

Fortunately, my husband was not involved emotionally with her beyond friendship. I know this to be true because he "let her go" very easily/quickly after he confessed. He had said over and over that he doesn't miss her and was relieved it was over.

 

There is much more I could post here, reading back over this it sounds like I am seriously minimizing and I'm not-this has hurt me, my husband and our marriage very badly. I just want to say that even though the PA was terrible-I think in time I can get through it and heal. If my H had had an EA, I am pretty sure I would have never recovered and an eventual divorce would have been the outcome-no matter how much I still loved my husband.

 

What I don't understand is when people will say it was "only" an EA when they are talking about their own WS and that they are grateful that it hadn't turned into a PA. To each his own (or her own) but it would have been almost impossible for me to try to connect with my H again. It would have been absolute torture for me to have to wait for him "to fall out of love" with the MW before he could work on our marriage with me. An EA seems like the ultimate betrayal! Sex is sex, after all. I'm not saying there weren't some pretty ugly thoughts that were going through my husband's mind the night he committed PA, but again, it was on a physical level, not in his heart or his soul.

 

I don't know, some people might disagree with me--but I could never have had any type of normal marital relationship with him again if he had been emotionally unfaithful. The thought of trying to be intimate with him and have him wishing for/thinking of her would have been absolutely devastating and a likely deal-breaker for me.

[Confused4Now]

EA by far.....that's my opinion

[Chrome Barracuda]

I think it depends on the person. I know I could forgive a EA if she dropped him and turned all her attention back to me in a certain amount of time. I understand she might have grown attached to the guy or girl (nowadays) but if she tells me she outright loves the person I would be inclined to walk away. I'd do what needed to be done. and if I found out she was screwing said person for no apparent reason I'd definitely wouldnt forgive her,

 

although I could forgive her but Id dont think I stay with her, in my eyes she'd be damaged goods and I wouldnt want to live with the ghost of the OP in my life. and also I dont want another person's sloppy seconds.

 

But like i said it all depends on the individual. I dont think I would be able to handle it either way if I was married.

[CaliforniaGirl]

I would have to think that either way, if emotions are involved that's "worse".

 

Not a worse betrayal, per se--betrayal is betrayal; it doesn't require a specific physical act to cross over some invisible line into betrayal, it's already there. But worse as far as it being less likely that a reconciliation between the spouse and the cheating person (sorry, don't know the abbreviations yet and I see different acronyms that seem to mean the same thing) will happen, at least from the POV of the cheater if the spouse wants him or her back.

 

Hope that made sense. In other words...actual sex or no actual sex, if there are emotions and feelings and romance going on, then the spouse has already at least partly left you in his or her mind, if not completely left you. He or she may in fact already have felt separated from you before starting an EA. And that's bad news...in my opinion.

[pyroguy]

I think you prove a very good point. It's been said that EA's are worse for women, and PA's are worse for men. I totally believe that. If you see what I posted in the "what sex means to men", you can see why I think that's true.

 

As you can see, the one male poster here, besides me, opted for the PA being worse. There's just something about your wife having sex with another man and loving it, desiring him, that is just unacceptable to men. They will never get over it.

 

Of course, this isn't always the case and sometimes the EA is just as bad or worse for me. But, generally, the PA is worse for men.

[2sure]

My H's infidelity consisted of a ONS PA type, which was the easiest part for me to wrap my head around and recover from.

 

It also consisted of many text messages and communications, which to me was an EA. They werent extensive or very personal conversations , did not include any talk of feelings.....but the contact made me feel it WAS an emotional affair. And thats what we have been recovering from - I believe successfully.

 

So, I understand why you feel you CAN get over the PA. To me, that was not the hard part. But I have to say that from what you have said in your post - I do think you are in denial about the EA. They have been work friends, he admitted they crossed boundaries long before they became physical. The poem she sent him was not for nothing, she didnt send it without any previous indication it would be well received, his continued text messages and calls to her...I'm sorry, but this is what an EA IS.

 

The WS denies to the spouse and maybe even to himself, what has happened. It makes it easier. The fact that your H confessed all to you is HUGE. You can recover, just recognize what you are recovering from.

[Owl]

I don't know that there is a "worse" option here...both have parts that are unique and complicate recovery.

 

PA's have the "mental imagry" that the BS has to overcome if they want to consider recovering.

 

EA's have the extended withdrawl and higher addiction issues that the WS has to overcome before recovery is possible.

 

The ones that are BOTH are the lowest recovery rates, since they suffer both problems.

[pkn06002]

Your rarely get the PA without the EA, the PA just adds to the attachment. The only way you are going to get just sex is with hookers and people you pick up at bars.

[angie2443]

I don't usually compare the damage of EA's and PA's anymore. There are differances, but in the end they both hurt and both do there damage.

 

What I can say is that EA's are often harder to spot and many people don't take them seriously. Before it happened to me, I didn't understand the concept of an emotional affair. I figured if there was no sex involved, then what was the problem? Now I can see the damage my H's relationship with his female friend caused in our marriage. My husband still doesn't understand and never will. This, for me anyways, makes it harder to heal and trust after the EA. I guess if I caught my h in a PA, there would be no denial on his part.

[Owl]

I would agree with you, PKN, except for all the stories I've seen here and on the OW/OM forum...and on other sites as well.

 

Especially in the "younger crowd" where the "friends with benefits" thing is a lot more common...it's not at all unusual to see a relationship START out as "physical only"..."just a bit of harmless fun"...and then emotions got entangled.

 

It works both ways...EA's cross into PA's...PA's cross over into EA's.

[65tr6]

I don't feel like my situation is nearly as bad as it could have been-not that it really makes it less painful. .

 

OP, sorry what you are going through. Let me throw in my 2 cents here. My wife had both EA + PA. Worst case scenario, as I call it. lol.

 

I used to think how i wish it was more like ONS or purely emotional (because for most men PA is just horrific just like EA is for most women).

 

We are now about six months into recovery. Now, I am thinking I really dont know if it matters. Infidelity is infidelity. For me it was ultimate form of disrespect. Question is are you willing to forgive and move on ? Do you want to stay in the marraige ? Do you see this as a huge wake-up call for you both husband and wife ?

 

I have heard most husbands who strayed indulge in playing down the affair by saying "sex with OM meant nothing" or "i have always loved you..the affair meant nothing". While for most women, while in an affair, give it all. Check themseleves out of the marriage. Dont truely differentiate between the emotional aspect from the physical.

 

Back to your story...I dont know if your husband was involved "emotionally". Seems to me like he was to an extent. The fact that she is a business colleague is a big red flag to me right there. But recognize that he betrayed you.

 

I dont think you should be in ANY kind of denial about the affair. Whether is was just physical or both physical and emotional. Your husband betrayed you. Period. Emotional element involved or not, does not matter. I think you are splitting hairs when you do that. What you have a serious problem. Your marriage is in serious trouble. Both you and your husband need to shake things up. Use the ugly affair as the wake-up call.

 

You have lot of things going right to begin with. Like 2sure said, your husband did the right thing by confessing. That is the first step.

 

Next,

 

• What is he doing to maintain a complete NC ?
  
• Has he answered all your questions about the A ? (see below about open and honest communication)
  
• What are you both doing to work on your marraige ?
  
• Are you both completely open and honest in your communication ?
  
• Are you both meeting each others' needs ?
  

[pkn06002]

I would agree with you, PKN, except for all the stories I've seen here and on the OW/OM forum...and on other sites as well.

 

Especially in the "younger crowd" where the "friends with benefits" thing is a lot more common...it's not at all unusual to see a relationship START out as "physical only"..."just a bit of harmless fun"...and then emotions got entangled.

 

It works both ways...EA's cross into PA's...PA's cross over into EA's.

 

You make an interesting point.

 

Had not thought about the "friends with benefits" turning. I would assume there would have to be and emotional part to begin with.

 

Others have made a great point though in the big picture it really does not matter. Damage is done either way.

[Owl]

You make an interesting point.

 

Had not thought about the "friends with benefits" turning. I would assume there would have to be and emotional part to begin with.

 

Others have made a great point though in the big picture it really does not matter. Damage is done either way.

 

Totally agreed. We should mark the date down, no? :)

[Snowflower]

My H's infidelity consisted of a ONS PA type, which was the easiest part for me to wrap my head around and recover from.

 

It also consisted of many text messages and communications, which to me was an EA. They werent extensive or very personal conversations , did not include any talk of feelings.....but the contact made me feel it WAS an emotional affair. And thats what we have been recovering from - I believe successfully.

 

So, I understand why you feel you CAN get over the PA. To me, that was not the hard part. But I have to say that from what you have said in your post - I do think you are in denial about the EA. They have been work friends, he admitted they crossed boundaries long before they became physical. The poem she sent him was not for nothing, she didnt send it without any previous indication it would be well received, his continued text messages and calls to her...I'm sorry, but this is what an EA IS.

 

The WS denies to the spouse and maybe even to himself, what has happened. It makes it easier. The fact that your H confessed all to you is HUGE. You can recover, just recognize what you are recovering from.

 

Wow, your situation does sound similar to mine. The ONS and then the calls, the texting and the emails in addition. Okay, so I'm thinking about what you said here...I don't think I am in denial about it being an EA for several reasons. One, I do not know for sure what actual boundaries were crossed beforehand-but from what my husband has told me, not many things happened that were all that inappropriate. I never cared before that he had female friends; I always trusted him. Things will be different from now on with regards to female friends and he agrees. Secondly, in EA's, it seems like the BS always knows exactly who the OW is because the WS always talks about this person (this could happen with the OM, too if it was the W involved in the EA). But, what I am saying is that my H hardly ever mentioned her--in my thinking, if he was getting that emotionally involved with her, he would have been mentioning her to me, albeit in "innocent" ways. That never happened.

 

It is interesting that in your situation, the calls, texts, emails were also not of a personal nature-feelings, hopes, etc. My H has said the same thing about the communication he was having with 'her'-it was usually work-related and less about personal topics. Like I said, the communication happened AFTER the PA and yes, at that point, it had crossed the line. But, my husband was not emotionally involved with her, beyond friendship.

 

The 'poem' part was actually funny because if she actually knew my H, she would have known that sending a message like that would have been met with a derisive laugh and an eye-roll from him. Never would he have taken something like that with any seriousness--even if I had sent the poem as a romantic gesture. Basically, the poem and some of her other actions told me that she was becoming very emotionally involved with him. Stupid girl...you never "chase" a guy that is not all that interested in you...it just drives him further away. I figured that out way back in high school! I'm so glad she didn't have a clue.

 

Thanks for your insight 2sure, it makes me think about things. How are you doing with your recovery?

[Snowflower]

You make an interesting point.

 

Had not thought about the "friends with benefits" turning. I would assume there would have to be and emotional part to begin with.

 

Others have made a great point though in the big picture it really does not matter. Damage is done either way.

 

 

Oh, I absolutely agree that damage is done either way but my point is that it does matter as to how much damage is done. I think there is an important distinction between a purely PA and an EA-whether or not the PA also occurs at some point.

 

There is just so much more invested in an EA--like a poster here said, your spouse has already partially left you in his/her mind due to the growing emotional attachment to the other person. This is why and EA is so much more damaging, IMO. Of course, put the two together, as often happens, and it is horrific.

 

My point is that nobody (men or women) should think it is no big deal that their spouse's EA is just no big deal because it hasn't turned physical. They are deluding themselves.

[2sure]

Snowflower - my H was not as forth coming as yours right away. If he had been, the recovery would have been more solid right away.

 

The best thing I can tell you is this. Your H has a problem, your marriage has a problem, and you have a problem. Your H has to show regret and remorse. You have to show that you are willing to take steps to forgive. Together, you have to find out the why or at least explore it. Together you have to protect the marriage.

 

Now to a key piece:

 

COMPLETE TRANSPARENCY. You have access to all of his communication, from now on with no end date. This is NOT to punish him. You dont have to check up on him if you dont feel the need - but you keep the access.

This is important. It gives some sense of control, and makes him think twice - which is OK.

[In Like Flynn]

As a man............I always believed that the sex part would be the worst, but i now believe that my wife giving her heart to another person was more damaging than the sex. Actually both are bad but in different ways. As a male its the idea another man is using my wife's body....touching all over her and yes the deposit of you know what in the you know where!!!

 

Looking at my wife is never the same even though she had sex prior to the marriage. Having sex performing oral...something I used to love doing and she would have to hit me on the head to stop....now I just hesitate before because I don't want to taste the other man!!!

 

BUT!!!!! Now I see that the emotional part actually hurt me even more. By giving her heart/emotions to another man long term. Its like she divorced me and married the other man but I didn't know it!! Recovery required basically starting over....dating in a sense while still married and living together. The purging of the emotional connection with the other man takes a lot of time and as you know!!!....Us males are never patient about that!!!

 

The emotional affairs usually end up with the betrayed spouse doing all the work to recover because the wayward spouse still has one foot outside the marriage. Physical affairs usually the wayward does the work or at least it just seems that way.

 

EA/PA is just a double whammy that is a marriage killer!!

[travelgirl]

I believe the only way there is a PA without an EA is if it was a ONS with someone you just met and never talk to again or with a hooker/call girl/escort. Possibly just a PA if they only meet for a quickie and never talk otherwise but even that rarely happens.

 

I honestly think there was some form of EA. Maybe not a 100% full fledged craziness but it is inappropriate for a married female college to be texting and calling a married man (yours!) on a social level before and ESPECIALLY after the ONS and he reciprocated all the same. You said yourself you saw the emails/calls etc... He can't possibly say it was only friendly. He can't have a ONS with her and then just be buddies with her afterwards. Every call, email, text sent was because he was thinking about her - which to me is an EA.

 

It sounds like you are on the road to recovery but he needs to have absolute 100% no contact with this lady. NONE.

[Snowflower]

Back to your story...I dont know if your husband was involved "emotionally". Seems to me like he was to an extent. The fact that she is a business colleague is a big red flag to me right there. But recognize that he betrayed you.

 

I dont think you should be in ANY kind of denial about the affair. Whether is was just physical or both physical and emotional. Your husband betrayed you. Period. Emotional element involved or not, does not matter. I think you are splitting hairs when you do that. What you have a serious problem. Your marriage is in serious trouble. Both you and your husband need to shake things up. Use the ugly affair as the wake-up call.

 

You have lot of things going right to begin with. Like 2sure said, your husband did the right thing by confessing. That is the first step.

 

Next,

 

• What is he doing to maintain a complete NC ?
  
• Has he answered all your questions about the A ? (see below about open and honest communication)
  
• What are you both doing to work on your marraige ?
  
• Are you both completely open and honest in your communication ?
  
• Are you both meeting each others' needs ?
  

 

Hi 65, Thanks for taking the time to reply. From your response, I realize I left a lot out in my original post for sake of brevity so I will answer your questions here.

 

Yes, our marriage WAS in serious trouble 8 months ago. I do not believe it is nearly so much now. If things continue as they have, we will eventually recover and be in a much better marriage as a result.

 

1. Yes, he has maintained NC since the day I "laid it out for him;" he needed to have NC with her or we were done-which was about 2 weeks after his confession. It has now been over 3 1/2 months. He honestly thought he could maintain the friendship with her at first because in his mind that is all the relationship really was. Yes, there were obvious errors in this thinking. After started NC, she kept calling him-on his cellphone, at work, etc. for about a week. He turned off his cellphone and gave it to me for the first two weeks until she finally gave up. Since that initial difficult phase, there have been 2 instances where they had to talk about work-related matters-unavoidable and he told me about them right away. He even forwarded her emails to me to read.

 

2. Yes, he has answered my repeated questions to my satisfaction-sometimes I have asked them over and over in different ways. I'm confident I have a good idea of what happened. There are some questions I won't ask because I don't want to know/need to know at this point. He has been very forthcoming.

 

3. We have been meeting with a very good MC for about 3 months but we have also made very good progress on our own. My H and I have spent countless hours talking, talking, talking about what happened in the A, what was wrong in our relationship, etc. We have learned a lot about our marriage and each other. It sounds so cliche and cheesy, even to me, but we are actually building a stronger, closer marriage than we ever had before.

 

4. MC has been so helpful in helping us both learn why the A happened by digging below the surface of our relationship. We had tried MC before my H confessed-I knew something was seriously wrong and it wasn't working because all the real issues were not out on the table. Now, we are both finding MC to be very helpful in figuring out how to move forward.

[2sure]

I totally get not wanting every gory detail. Many people feel they MUST have them. To me, when all of the details have been got :

- you not only end up with just more questions which leads to more details...its endless

 

But you also then have enough to create a visual image you now have to walk around with.

 

Sure, everyone wants to know every little thing in the beginning - its a way of feeling in control....but getting them has the opposite effect.

 

I think recovery is more difficult for those among us who have either created the visual with details or gotten slammed with them first hand.

[Snowflower]

I believe the only way there is a PA without an EA is if it was a ONS with someone you just met and never talk to again or with a hooker/call girl/escort. Possibly just a PA if they only meet for a quickie and never talk otherwise but even that rarely happens.

 

I honestly think there was some form of EA. Maybe not a 100% full fledged craziness but it is inappropriate for a married female college to be texting and calling a married man (yours!) on a social level before and ESPECIALLY after the ONS and he reciprocated all the same. You said yourself you saw the emails/calls etc... He can't possibly say it was only friendly. He can't have a ONS with her and then just be buddies with her afterwards. Every call, email, text sent was because he was thinking about her - which to me is an EA.

 

It sounds like you are on the road to recovery but he needs to have absolute 100% no contact with this lady. NONE.

 

travelgirl, you hit it right on. It was all inappropriate. But at what point does it cease to be a friendship and turn into an EA? I guess that is different for all of us. Since he never 'loved' her and never had plans to leave me--it was a huge, horrific mistake on his part. Was it inappropriate, damaging and absolutely wrong, of course. I am trying to put it into its proper perspective.

 

quote: He can't have a ONS with her and then just be buddies with her afterwards. endquote/

 

Actually, that is what did happen. And again, it was wrong. But there was no emotional attachment other than friendship on his part. As for her, it was obviously different. He honestly thought that they could just be friends. He thought it was "safe" just to talk to her on the phone because he never wanted to be physically around her again-in any way-in terms of location, seeing each other on the side, etc. I definitely had to straighten him out on that there was no way he could even talk to her. When I gave my husband the "it's her or me" talk and that he would have to choose their short-term friendship or our long-term marriage, he immediately ceased all contact with her. My H has since told me that once I laid out that ultimatum like that, that he could suddenly see where he was so wrong.

[Snowflower]

I totally get not wanting every gory detail. Many people feel they MUST have them. To me, when all of the details have been got :

- you not only end up with just more questions which leads to more details...its endless

 

But you also then have enough to create a visual image you now have to walk around with.

 

Sure, everyone wants to know every little thing in the beginning - its a way of feeling in control....but getting them has the opposite effect.

 

I think recovery is more difficult for those among us who have either created the visual with details or gotten slammed with them first hand.

 

Oh, I agree. More details just create more questions and then you start to build up this mental image. I know enough now that I can understand what happened (and what didn't happen-which there was some good news there) and try to move on.

 

It took me nearly a month after his confession and we had committed to recovering our marriage to ask some of the more difficult questions about the PA-ONS. I got as close to some of the details as I wanted to. My H treaded very lightly here and only answered as much as I wanted him to. He cried (we both did) when we had this discussion-it was very difficult for both of us--for him to talk about and for me to hear.

 

I am so glad that I do not have the visual image of them 'together' in any way like I might have if I had caught them in some way. Thank God he confessed and that is how I found out.

[Snowflower]

As a man............I always believed that the sex part would be the worst, but i now believe that my wife giving her heart to another person was more damaging than the sex....

 

...The emotional affairs usually end up with the betrayed spouse doing all the work to recover because the wayward spouse still has one foot outside the marriage. Physical affairs usually the wayward does the work or at least it just seems that way.

 

EA/PA is just a double whammy that is a marriage killer!!

 

In Like Flynn--you just made my point. I completely agree. Even though the PA was/is the worst part for me to deal with in my H's affair, at least I know his feelings for me were still intact.

[2sure]

Snowflower - your views are very much like my own. Some people here have at times made me feel like I am being a doormat for forgiving infidelity.

 

I am sure their view is partly based on the fact that my husband did it twice.

 

Yep.

 

The first time is just what I previously described and as you said - very similar to your own experience. I / we did just what you are doing and I felt pretty good about it.

 

The second time, a year later - I did the rest. I put the brakes on everything, through respect & privacy out the door, called OW, took steps to take the house and his career from under him. He was humiliated and angry. All of THAT is honestly what saved our marriage and ultimately changed his way of thinking. Until HE had consequences, there was something in his head that told him his actions were basically harmless.

[Dexter Morgan]

....to me, it doesn't matter.

 

Both are grounds for kicking them to the curb.