Jaytb Posted March 20, 2009 Posted March 20, 2009 Maybe we could stop blaming the opposite sex for our own difficulties in building meaningful relationships. B b but if I don't blame other people for my problems, then I have to take responsibility for my situation! I have to always blame others for everything!
GoodOnPaper Posted March 20, 2009 Posted March 20, 2009 On every single one of these threads, no matter which gender is made to defend itself, I always wonder: where does all this frustration come from? Probably different reasons for different people, but in my case, it's the disconnect between who I really am and who it seemed that I needed to be in order to attract women. Right now it comes off as hot women and average women are all vying for the "hot and exciting guys" and the rest of us are left with the ugly women and/or flakes and/or headcases. I'd say this was true back in the '80s and '90s as well. In my graduate program class, the women considered the men too nerdy to date -- seemed somewhat hypocritical considering we were all in the same program.
IrishCarBomb Posted March 20, 2009 Posted March 20, 2009 I know I make much less effort than my father did. I mean... he had to walk ten miles in seven feet of snow just to ask my mom out on a date (UPHILL both ways!). I, however, can just use my telephone and get in my car. Kids these days are so spoiled.
zhsoj Posted March 20, 2009 Posted March 20, 2009 Well what about how you feel about her? you don't really make it sound like you two have much of a connection going on - so why would you keep asking her out? Ah... Good point. Lets see... I do like her, we have fun when we go out (at least I do), etc... However I don't have any experience, so really I have no idea what I'm doing. Who knows, I could be totally wrong, but the longer it goes on the more I succumb to my more usual thought patterns that there really isn't any interest. So yeah... In the end I'm just confused due largely to my inexperience. zhsoj, all I mean by assertiveness is a certain amount of leadership in the relation, per the view that men have a (slightly!) dominant role in creating romantic relationships (not necessarily in sustaining them). That being said, I can tell you this: if I went on two-three dates with a guy and wasn't feeling it, I would let him know explicitly that I wasn't interested. However, if I was interested, yet he wasn't kissing me, wasn't asking me for the next date with clear specifics about what we might do, etc., I would seriously question his interest towards me. I hope this answers your question. Thanks, that seems reasonable.
Ocean-Blue Posted March 20, 2009 Posted March 20, 2009 I haven't read any of the responses... I would say, yes, men are more involved than our fathers were. My dad was too busy with work and taking care of his family, even though my mom worked, to really be there, the way I need him to be. I see changes in this generation (late 20 somethings) that I don't see in my father's generation. Sure, he tried to be there... Men today are more aware. They seem more sensitive to the issues than our forefathers. I see men holding their babies more often, talking to them, and making the time to be with their children. This is a change, for sure.
Jersey Shortie Posted March 21, 2009 Posted March 21, 2009 Let's face it, my life has been watching women reject me left and right, because I was never "good enough" for them. The women I met in so many walks of life either felt they could do "better" or they were such a mess from past boyfriends that they couldn't trust anyone with a penis. That, or they were the infamous "bad boy chasers". Women get rejected to D-Jam. And not because we all choose bad men, have too high expectations or are selfish. There are alot of men out there that thought they could do "better" then me or talked about exes. Or yes, wanted the bad girl. I get what you are saying and understand why you would be frustrated but you can't blame women for all the relatoinship ills and not see the other side of it. So that's just it. For many men, porn and hookups are safer and more enjoyable. Same thing with video games and other things that some women claim make us "child men". Well, that's just it. What does a child do when he/she doesn't get her/his way? They take their toys and go pla with themselves. It is obviously harder to deal with people then it is porn and video games. If you want women to see you like a man, act like one.
a_f_w Posted March 21, 2009 Posted March 21, 2009 I imagine my type of approach counts for a minority of the non-pursuing men out there, but it might be interesting to explain anyway. I'm 22 and there have been... six women who, there is no doubt, liked me a lot. I mix with very few people and most of those I met quite by chance. It was eminently obvious to me right from the start that they were attracted to me, and after more time around them (usually we were stuck together in some kind of living or work environment) it was clarified. And that's not just the six times when my assumption of interest was confirmed - I can't think of a time when I've imagined someone liked me and then after a while having to change my mind about it. Now, if I had acted in a certain way, and a way that I believe I know at least enough about to make a successful run at it, I believe I could have been with each of those women, in whatever way I/we wanted. Just sex, though that's not for me, or girlfriends and such - basically it was clearly there for the taking. But, I couldn't be bothered. Or, perhaps not quite that - it just seemed kind of a ridiculous game to play. The hints and the blatant oportunities they open for you, where you're meant to step in and actually make the offer they wanted to make, and then their "oh... you want to? hmm well maybe" the whole thing needs the biggest *rolleyes* emoticon ever The arrangement is meant to give the woman plausable deniability that she ever requested, implied, wanted or hoped for any of the things the man agreed to suggest based on her overt and obvious hints. Quite how long the farcical proceedings are meant to go on, I don't know, since I never really took it that far. I don't think I could ever bring myself to go along with it, at least while keeping a straight face. I like women (for some reason), and I like to spend time with them but I'm just really not up for the kind of **** I described above. Unfortunately the majority of women are like that, and actively encourage each other to be ever more passive about it. There were some posts earlier with a couple of female members saying they're going to try to just let the man take the lead even more, and kind of just get washed along by it? After all, if he's interested then he will beg for your company and initiate everything, right? There's clearly a lot of variation in it. One would drop huge hints all the time and then when I "*sigh*, ok shall we do [whatever] tomorrow?" she'd literally respond in the negative, directly express disinterest, and then wait for me to beg and plead. When I just said that was alright, she'd re-offer in a slightly stronger way, and so on. Others aren't so bad, but it's a pretty damn common aspect of female behaviour during "courting". Maybe some men like it. Or maybe some men are oblivious to it. Perhaps my refusal to play along is related to my being rather uninterested in sex - if I was desperately horny I wonder if I'd do what needed to be done. Anyway that's why *I* usually seem disinterested and do not "pursue" women. As far as I'm concerned, if something needs pursuing then it [is acting like it] doesn't want to be caught, so I'll leave it alone. People who like me, I will spend time with. People who don't like me, I won't. People who *pretend* not to like me go with the latter category.
confused_2008 Posted March 21, 2009 Posted March 21, 2009 a_f_w, the problems you describe in your post aren't really that big of a problem. If they're giving you obvious signs to ask them out, why don't you just go for it? Or were you not interested in any of those women at all? If you were interested, that's about the best you're going to get. Some will straight up ask you out, but women with a lot of options just won't do it because they don't have to. They'll drop the same hints to another guy and he'll take the bait. It's just the way it is. I think you would find that if you had actually asked those women out, the "farcical proceedings" would have ended pretty quick, at least with the ones who are worth your time. Women are conditioned to be a little coy at first. Again, not really that hard to deal with, as long as it's just initially. You don't want to beg and plead for their time but it almost sounds like that's what you want them to do for you.
Cherry Blossom 35 Posted March 21, 2009 Posted March 21, 2009 Well, that's just it. What does a child do when he/she doesn't get her/his way? They take their toys and go pla with themselves. It is obviously harder to deal with people then it is porn and video games. If you want women to see you like a man, act like one. Oooohhh....zing :bunny:
Kamille Posted March 21, 2009 Posted March 21, 2009 Ah... Good point. Lets see... I do like her, we have fun when we go out (at least I do), etc... However I don't have any experience, so really I have no idea what I'm doing. Who knows, I could be totally wrong, but the longer it goes on the more I succumb to my more usual thought patterns that there really isn't any interest. So yeah... In the end I'm just confused due largely to my inexperience. Well it's not a waste of time if you're having fun on the dates! See, I think most humans are decent beings and since most of us are, in the end, interested in finding love, most people I know won't 'string' a guy along just for kicks. So if she agrees to go out and then shows up on the date, is attentive, smiles, etc, you have to assume she's interested. I wonder, have you two kissed yet? That's usually a pivotal moment. I personally cannot kiss someone I don't find attractive. Also, if your doubts about her interest persist and you're past the third date, hang back a little and see if she gets in touch with you. A girl who is interested will most likely find a way to contact you. To a_f_w, who commented on my comments about hanging back. i think you misunderstood. We were talking about asking men out vs waiting for men to ask us out. Once a man asks me out, I naturally show I'm interested if I am. If I'm not, I don't leave them hanging. Letting the man lead doesn't mean letting the man do all the work.
Trialbyfire Posted March 21, 2009 Posted March 21, 2009 kamille, part of it is reliant on interest v. high interest in the girl/woman, personality type, past experience and how far a man pulls back. I'll give myself as an example, since I know myself well. Due to past experiences with a commitmentphobic person, if there's the least bit of pulling back, that's it, I would slam the door shut. There's no use wasting more time with someone who isn't going to meet my needs, who has the confidence and drive necessary to keep things going. Previous to that experience, if there's been a little pull back, coupled with high interest on my side, I would have tentatively reached out. If the man showed high interest at that point, then it would progress. If he either showed little interest, no interest or continued pulling back, then once again, the door slams shut. Also, to give another example, more passive women will probably do nothing, letting it fall by the wayside, regardless of interest level. If anything, she might sit and pine by the phone, if there's high interest. zhsoj has to play it by ear. There's no easy formula for dating and attraction. This is applicable to either gender. I still haven't figured out what sparks real chemistry which has the potential to turn to deeper emotions.
Isolde Posted March 21, 2009 Posted March 21, 2009 kamille, part of it is reliant on interest v. high interest in the girl/woman, personality type, past experience and how far a man pulls back. I'll give myself as an example, since I know myself well. Due to past experiences with a commitmentphobic person, if there's the least bit of pulling back, that's it, I would slam the door shut. There's no use wasting more time with someone who isn't going to meet my needs, who has the confidence and drive necessary to keep things going. Previous to that experience, if there's been a little pull back, coupled with high interest on my side, I would have tentatively reached out. If the man showed high interest at that point, then it would progress. If he either showed little interest, no interest or continued pulling back, then once again, the door slams shut. Also, to give another example, more passive women will probably do nothing, letting it fall by the wayside, regardless of interest level. If anything, she might sit and pine by the phone, if there's high interest. zhsoj has to play it by ear. There's no easy formula for dating and attraction. This is applicable to either gender. I still haven't figured out what sparks real chemistry which has the potential to turn to deeper emotions. This ^ is essential reading for any guy confused about women. LOL!
clv0116 Posted March 21, 2009 Posted March 21, 2009 A lot of guys are raised by women and are afraid to get rejected or be labeled creepy. They don't understand that rejection is normal and whether their advances are welcome or not has more to do with the woman they are showing interest in than it has to do with anything intrinsic to THEM. The fact is, if you are the one making advances you WILL get rejected. It's normal, move on. One guy I know says men are the predators and women are the prey. A little over the top but not completely wrong. No predator is 100% successful on every hunt.
zhsoj Posted March 21, 2009 Posted March 21, 2009 Well it's not a waste of time if you're having fun on the dates! See, I think most humans are decent beings and since most of us are, in the end, interested in finding love, most people I know won't 'string' a guy along just for kicks. So if she agrees to go out and then shows up on the date, is attentive, smiles, etc, you have to assume she's interested. I wonder, have you two kissed yet? That's usually a pivotal moment. I personally cannot kiss someone I don't find attractive. Also, if your doubts about her interest persist and you're past the third date, hang back a little and see if she gets in touch with you. A girl who is interested will most likely find a way to contact you. To a_f_w, who commented on my comments about hanging back. i think you misunderstood. We were talking about asking men out vs waiting for men to ask us out. Once a man asks me out, I naturally show I'm interested if I am. If I'm not, I don't leave them hanging. Letting the man lead doesn't mean letting the man do all the work. Thanks Kamille. I see your point. I don't want to go into too much detail, nor thread-jack, but the situation isn't really the normal "relationship" model. We've been "going-out" for a little over 2 months. From the beginning she made it clear that this was a short-term thing as she was moving in a few months. We have kissed, though I don't think anyone would describe it as "heavy". I dunno... I'm 25 and I have no idea what I'm doing She's really busy and I get the sense I'm just wasting her time. I think I'll back off completely and see if she ever contacts me. I was going to do this last week, but then we randomly ran into each other...
a_f_w Posted March 21, 2009 Posted March 21, 2009 After reading the replies since my last post, I realise that yes if I had just rolled my eyes and gritted my teeth, and said what they wanted me to say, then if we had "got together" somewhere down the line presumably they'd then feel able to openly suggest things and play an active role in the "relationship". So I guess we can say that I'm just not all that interested? I did in fact decide, with one of those girls, to play along. Luckily she wasn't too bad about it all and didn't act too badly. I was 20 and thought I might as well see what it's all about. It seemed popular, you see. It took a lot of effort for the first 6 months or so, to conciously do coupley things instead of independant things I was happy without her, then I was happy with her, and now I'm happy without her. So maybe it's not ever worth me bothering. You don't want to beg and plead for their time but it almost sounds like that's what you want them to do for you. no no, that would be going to the opposite extreme and isn't what I want. In fact I've met very forward and quick women and I didn't like it one bit, I was totally put off by it. I don't mean just that they were open to physical stuff quickly, but that they pushed things forward really really quickly and there was no time for anything in getting to know each other. I enjoy there being some kind of uncertainty and "mystery" when getting to know a woman, and it's not that I don't like being proactive and present in the friendship, but I reckon putting the things SHE wanted to say/do/ask over to me and expecting me to say/do/ask them for her, is kind of lame.
Kamille Posted March 22, 2009 Posted March 22, 2009 I was going to do this last week, but then we randomly ran into each other... If randomly running into each other happens once, it's a coincidence. If it happens twice, and on your turf, she might be trying to run into you. I know you guys don't have it easy. It's annoying on the other side too, when you don't know if you're going to freak a guy out just by showing too much interest early. (I do anyway. I figure anyone who gets freaked out by genuine emotion is not worth my time.) But I have been there, having to call it quits in spite of high interest on my part because the guy was unreliable. I have seen my friends debate whether or not they should get in touch with a guy after not hearing from him for awhile -at the risk of appearing desperate. It's just as confusing and it certainly as easy and cushy as some of you seem to think. In the dating world, no one gender holds all the power.
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