Do Men Make Less Effort Today Than Our Father's Did?

[9Lives]

I can't help but think that men do make less time and effort to persue women today. For a million different reasons. The internet for one, now everyone just makes a "profile" and "tries" to connect with people but there doesn't seem to be any real effort or connection going on. So many options it presents that no one seems to want to focus on one person.

 

Also for the internet, porn. I think more men probably just take the easy outlet instead of putting in the effort it takes to engage a real women and risk the rejection. Porn is great because it's all about what men want and need and lets face it, real women don't live up to it.

 

Do you think men approach women in public today more or less then 20 years ago? And do you think men put in as much effort, or even want to anymore, to have a relationship? Guys? Do you not put the effort in anymore ? Or do you only put in the effort when it's for easy sex? Are women this worthless to men now-a-days? I am sadly beginning to think that is the case. I just don't see guys pursuing women in public or asking women out. Girls? What say you? Do you think there is a decline in how men engage with real women?

 

I am not an unattractive girl but I can't seem to get a real connection with a guy going for over a year now when my last relationship ended. Guys just seem so tuned out to wanting to put the effort in and not having the expectations that I am only there to provide him with sex.

 

 

Yes they are not as aggresive to persue us for alot of reasons. I think that they are acting like bitches more and more as times goes on. They want the women to run after them.

 

As far as being attractive. I am a attractive women myself. I notice that they DO expect you to look like a magazine doll in a lot of instances because it is beautiful to them. But even if you look amazing, that does not mean they are going to get with you...then they are intimated by your beauty cause it draws too much attention to you.

 

People in general are very shallow. We dont connect like we use to. We text, email, and things like that to communicate and I cant stand it. I wish they would have never invented text cause men use it alot to skate thru things.

 

I notice the less attractive men are more gentlemen. They are complimentary. They want to please a women. And they appreciate a good looking woman cause they dont get one everyday. I starting to consider the man with a beautiful heart more than a great look.

 

i just think men are weak. they have too many options. They think we should open doors for them. We should chase them. They want to be treated like women. Not all but quite a bit of them.

[pollywag]

I had one of the 2% as well.. On every single dish she would squirt about 2 inches of Dawn dishwashing detergent. She went through an entire bottle washing about 20 dishes and cups..

 

 

She may have been ensuring that your dishes kept a nice film of detergent on them so that when you ate off of them you got an extra "kick of flavour".

 

I agree men are starting to act like bitches, and don't know what they want. The good ones are out there you just have to go through a lot more bad ones to find a good one, and no the good ones don't look like our grandfathers...in case you are wondering.

[confused_2008]

People in general are very shallow. We dont connect like we use to. We text, email, and things like that to communicate and I cant stand it. I wish they would have never invented text cause men use it alot to skate thru things.

 

I notice the less attractive men are more gentlemen. They are complimentary. They want to please a women. And they appreciate a good looking woman cause they dont get one everyday. I starting to consider the man with a beautiful heart more than a great look.

 

i just think men are weak. they have too many options. They think we should open doors for them. We should chase them. They want to be treated like women. Not all but quite a bit of them.

 

A few things about this. You're right that people are getting to be more shallow, but then you say men use text to skate thru things. I think women do that just as much as men.

 

And yeah, physical attractiveness is inversely proportional to manners in most cases. That's true with women as well, in general. Attractive people have more options so they're not going to try as hard to impress. It's only logical, isn't it? I'm not saying it's right, just logical.

 

And, I hope your talking figuratively about guys wanting women to open doors for them, because that just sounds ridiculous. Has that seriously been an issue with men you've dated?

 

Edit: And for all the discussion about women who don't know how to wash a dish... that's just pure laziness and sloppy living. There's no excuse for men or women who live like that. It's just disgusting, IMO.

[Woggle]

I don't want women to open doors for me but I sure won't open a door for them.

[pollywag]

. Attractive people have more options so they're not going to try as hard to impress. It's only logical, isn't it? I'm not saying it's right, just logical.

 

 

 

It's only logical in a beauty and youth obsessed society where values are measured in terms of external qualities and where nothing is done to nurture the character or soul.

 

Our current social state actually outweighs any sort of logic. However, logic tells me that if we were basing our focus on the right aspects of humanity we should be happy and in unison, yet people have never been more dissatisfied and confused. Go figure!

[Chicago_Guy]

Yes they are not as aggresive to persue us for alot of reasons. I think that they are acting like bitches more and more as times goes on. They want the women to run after them.

 

As far as being attractive. I am a attractive women myself. I notice that they DO expect you to look like a magazine doll in a lot of instances because it is beautiful to them. But even if you look amazing, that does not mean they are going to get with you...then they are intimated by your beauty cause it draws too much attention to you.

 

People in general are very shallow. We dont connect like we use to. We text, email, and things like that to communicate and I cant stand it. I wish they would have never invented text cause men use it alot to skate thru things.

 

I notice the less attractive men are more gentlemen. They are complimentary. They want to please a women. And they appreciate a good looking woman cause they dont get one everyday. I starting to consider the man with a beautiful heart more than a great look.

 

i just think men are weak. they have too many options. They think we should open doors for them. We should chase them. They want to be treated like women. Not all but quite a bit of them.

 

You say that today's men are weak, but many men would counter that today's women are bossy and manipulative bitches. You don't realize all of the crap that men have to deal with from women.

 

If a woman likes a man, she SHOULD chase after him, at least a little bit so that he knows she really does like him and isn't just using him for free entertainment. A lot of women are very wishy-washy and it is refreshing to meet a woman who knows what she wants in a man.

[pollywag]

If a woman likes a man, she SHOULD chase after him, at least a little bit so that he knows she really does like him and isn't just using him for free entertainment. A lot of women are very wishy-washy and it is refreshing to meet a woman who knows what she wants in a man.

 

 

I disagree that women should chase men. The last thing women should do especially in this day in age is chase after men. That would complete the emasculation process and would leave any hope for women to meet real men, out for good. Most women know exactly what they want, they want a solid faithful mate, an exciting sexual partner and commitment to exclusivity, almost all women want the exact same thing when they date men. It's usually the men that are confused and wishy washy because men are the ones that for some odd reason need to be "coaxed" into relationships.

 

Seeing as men see themselves as so superior that they need to be "convinced" to be exclusive with a woman the least he could do is act as a gentleman in order for a woman to also want to have him by her side. When a man fails to do this, she loses interest and she doesn't really want what is being offered to her. This can often be perceived as confusion.

 

As to the being used for the free entertainment comment, that's a risk men have to take unfortunately. Just like women have to take the risk of being used just for sex when dating a man. Life is full of risks. Tough!

If you risk nothing you win nothing.

[Kamille]

On every single one of these threads, no matter which gender is made to defend itself, I always wonder: where does all this frustration come from?

 

Endless pages of a debate about who is the shallowest of genders and all I'm thinking is I'm way ahead of the game since I'm not shallow and I haven't dated shallow people in ages. Or ever.

 

Maybe we should all stop trying to convince every member of the opposite sex to be who we think they should be and learn to accept others for who they are, faults and all.

 

Maybe we could stop blaming the opposite sex for our own difficulties in building meaningful relationships.

 

Maybe it isn't about gender at all, but about the fact that if you treat everyone you encounter like an individual in their own rights, you'll be better equiped to accept that yes, 99% of the members of the opposite sex aren't the right match for you.

 

And you know what, it doesn't mean there is something dramatically wrong with the world... That's just the way dating is: you're not going to fall for everyone you meet and not everyone you meet is going to fall for you. Accept it, spare yourself the frustration and that way you'll at least be in a good place when you do meet someone who's right for you.

[Chicago_Guy]

I disagree that women should chase men. The last thing women should do especially in this day in age is chase after men. That would complete the emasculation process and would leave any hope for women to meet real men, out for good. Most women know exactly what they want, they want a solid faithful mate, an exciting sexual partner and commitment to exclusivity, almost all women want the exact same thing when they date men. It's usually the men that are confused and wishy washy because men are the ones that for some odd reason need to be "coaxed" into relationships.

 

Seeing as men see themselves as so superior that they need to be "convinced" to be exclusive with a woman the least he could do is act as a gentleman in order for a woman to also want to have him by her side. When a man fails to do this, she loses interest and she doesn't really want what is being offered to her. This can often be perceived as confusion.

 

As to the being used for the free entertainment comment, that's a risk men have to take unfortunately. Just like women have to take the risk of being used just for sex when dating a man. Life is full of risks. Tough!

If you risk nothing you win nothing.

 

If a woman doesn't want to chase a man, then I think that she could at least give the man a clear indication that she's interested so the man knows he isn't wasting his time.

[pollywag]

If a woman doesn't want to chase a man, then I think that she could at least give the man a clear indication that she's interested so the man knows he isn't wasting his time.

 

 

I couldn't agree more!

 

I thought that was a given, perhaps I am naive on how women operate these days? If a woman is truly in tune with her feminine side this should be a non issue. So if a woman is going to long for a manly man she should be a very feminine woman.

[Kamille]

If a woman doesn't want to chase a man, then I think that she could at least give the man a clear indication that she's interested so the man knows he isn't wasting his time.

 

All depending on what you feel is a clear indication that she's interested, if you don't get the impression that a girl is interested, then I would assume she isn't.

 

Signs I give when I'm interested:

- leaning foward, ask questions about him, touch him, glance at his lips, laugh at his jokes, will say yes to following ask out and follow up on plans.

[pollywag]

Signs I give when I'm interested:

- leaning foward, ask questions about him, touch him, glance at his lips, laugh at his jokes, will say yes to following ask out and follow up on plans.

 

 

I think he is talking more about the actual pursuit in the dating stages not just body language of a good date. All those things you described could be there on a first date and the date still doesn't go beyond one outing. It happens all the time, god knows I have even acted like that on dates with men but didn't really feel the desire to see them again.

 

Men have a lot to deal with these days too, sometimes a good date means nothing. Especially since most people now a days meet online. It's a free for all of little to no attention span that leads to a lot of confusion on both parts, but in particular I see it's very confusing for men. I do empathize with that.

 

All we have to do is read most of the situations on this board they almost always start off with "we met online" and confusion starts after the first meeting.

[Isolde]

Polly, what are ways that a woman can give a clear indication she's interested, without actually chasing? I typically make strong eye contact, lower my lashes, smile and laugh a lot at what he says, and so on. I don't like overtly touching too much or anything like that.

[Kamille]

very true sister pollywag, and it's nice to have your spiritual insight back on the site.

 

I did mention though that the surest measure of my interest is that I will say yes to a second date and follow up on the plan.

 

And of course, nothing says I'm interested like a good night kiss.

[pollywag]

Polly, what are ways that a woman can give a clear indication she's interested, without actually chasing? I typically make strong eye contact, lower my lashes, smile and laugh a lot at what he says, and so on. I don't like overtly touching too much or anything like that.

 

Those are all fundamentals in terms of flirting and letting a guy know you are into him, as Kamile also stated. All excellent ways to let a man know you are interested. But I think the follow-through is just as important though. Today we have a lot of options for communication, when a man treats a woman to a date or has asked her out to something it leaves a perfect door open for her to follow contact a day or two later to remind him how much fun she had with him via phone, text or email whatever medium you choose. She doesn't have to tell him she wants to do it again she simply tells him I am thinking about you and the great time we had. Short simple and to the point, ball's back in his court. He can continue to pursue and you continue to give him positive feedback and encouragement.

 

 

It makes you feel special as a woman that he is making efforts to see you and plans, and special as a man to know you have a woman's full attention. Now why would anyone want to ruin the courting process with gender role exchange?

[pollywag]

very true sister pollywag, and it's nice to have your spiritual insight back on the site.

 

 

Thank you my child, and god bless.

 

 

I did mention though that the surest measure of my interest is that I will say yes to a second date and follow up on the plan.

 

And of course, nothing says I'm interested like a good night kiss.

 

Indeed nothing says "come in we're open" like a good night kiss to seal the date and a follow up plan. Not to be confused with "open 24 hrs" though.

[Isolde]

Polly, I agree that women chasing men reinforces the role confusion that has made dating frustrating for so many. Unfortunately, the other side of the story is that some men expect us to initiate contact because we now have "equal rights." I feel like if a woman wants to adopt a no-pursuing policy, she may be single for a very long time.

 

I think I need to start dating older guys, who may be more likely to make the first move.

[Kamille]

Polly, I agree that women chasing men reinforces the role confusion that has made dating frustrating for so many. Unfortunately, the other side of the story is that some men expect us to initiate contact because we now have "equal rights." I feel like if a woman wants to adopt a no-pursuing policy, she may be single for a very long time.

 

I think I need to start dating older guys, who may be more likely to make the first move.

 

Well, here's the way I see it: if you have been doing the first moves and it hasn't worked for you, try something else.

 

But yeah, I remember when I decided I was going to be less "agressive" with men, I did have a draught period - basically because I stopped trying to follow up on my own crushes. But then a bunch of new prospects showed up... In other words, I started paying attention to men who were interested in me, rather then paying attention to the men I was interested in. And you know what - it's been my experience that dating men I know are interested in me is much easier then dating men I was initially interested in.

[D-Jam]

I think men have backed off women more nowadays because it's become a bigger challenge to get with them.

 

Let's face it, my life has been watching women reject me left and right, because I was never "good enough" for them. The women I met in so many walks of life either felt they could do "better" or they were such a mess from past boyfriends that they couldn't trust anyone with a penis. That, or they were the infamous "bad boy chasers".

 

By the time I got into my 30s, I became jaded. I had a few RLs under my belt that had drama in them and ended badly, and a longer list of women who rejected me for one reason or another...most of the time by blowing me off. I saw female friends of mine go from one douchebag to the next, while rejecting men I felt would be wonderful to them.

 

I stopped trusting women at that point...and lost a lot of respect for them. I didn't give sympathy anymore when a woman got burned by the loser she keeps giving chances to, or the ones who cry out "where are all the decent men???" In my mind I just felt that love was more a misery for me than a blessing, and I imagine a lot of guys feel the same way. They don't see the pursuit as enjoyable, because they feel in their mind that this will just be another time they get friendzoned, or blown off, or handed some lie that they see was clearly a lie shortly after. That or women trying to tell the decent guys how we're not that "decent" and thus still hold us to a standard that those women themselves can't seem to find in a man.

 

So that's just it. For many men, porn and hookups are safer and more enjoyable. Same thing with video games and other things that some women claim make us "child men".

 

I think more men would pursue if they could see that it's not so unbelievably hard now for the relationship-minded average joe to find a good woman. Right now it comes off as hot women and average women are all vying for the "hot and exciting guys" and the rest of us are left with the ugly women and/or flakes and/or headcases.

 

I love my GF to death and consider myself very lucky, but if it were to end I imagine I would yet again crawl back into my happy place and make my life about me. I would ignore all the compliments of how I would make some woman very lucky and just live my life as me. That's how a lot of men are.

 

Many men are shown clearly enough how to "try" and how to "pursue", but many more tried it all and failed...thus they just think it's more misery than good...so they do other things.

[sb129]

I think all people make less effort today than our parents. This regards everything, not just the pursue of relationships.

 

I think this has elements of truth to it- for example many people are much happier to receive benefits and handouts rather than work in a job, and in my parents day, you just didn't do that, and it wasn't as easy as it is now.

 

I think peoples manners were better then, and you could construe that as "effort"- by simply being nice and polite to people.

 

The opposite is true in some areas though- women do make more effort with their careers, lots of people work harder than they ever have before, and there is much more choice out there so I think some people DO have to make more effort now to get and keep a partner.

 

And I still stand by my previous posts that my H makes more of an effort with me than my dad does with my mum. My H does 50% of the housework and cleaning, and will be a great hands on dad.

 

Now a days most women cant or refuse to do these things

 

Well thats rubbish- I do lots of housework and cooking. As stated previously.

 

This is just generalization btw... however, I do feel women have more options than men do nowadays. Poor us guys we have to constantly walk the fine line of being a great guy and a creepy guy.

 

I agree with this- there is MUCH more pressure on guys to be goodlooking, sensitive, caring, intelligent, hardworking, honest, etc etc. People don't just put up with faults as much as they used to.

 

On every single one of these threads, no matter which gender is made to defend itself, I always wonder: where does all this frustration come from?

 

Endless pages of a debate about who is the shallowest of genders and all I'm thinking is I'm way ahead of the game since I'm not shallow and I haven't dated shallow people in ages. Or ever.

 

Maybe we should all stop trying to convince every member of the opposite sex to be who we think they should be and learn to accept others for who they are, faults and all.

 

Maybe we could stop blaming the opposite sex for our own difficulties in building meaningful relationships.

 

Maybe it isn't about gender at all, but about the fact that if you treat everyone you encounter like an individual in their own rights, you'll be better equiped to accept that yes, 99% of the members of the opposite sex aren't the right match for you.

 

And you know what, it doesn't mean there is something dramatically wrong with the world... That's just the way dating is: you're not going to fall for everyone you meet and not everyone you meet is going to fall for you. Accept it, spare yourself the frustration and that way you'll at least be in a good place when you do meet someone who's right for you.

 

GREAT post Kamille.

 

I feel the same. Its sad. And exhausting, and i don't think I will be able to convince any of the angry ones that life doesnt have to be like that forever and that there are good examples of people and relationships out there.

[pollywag]

Polly, I agree that women chasing men reinforces the role confusion that has made dating frustrating for so many. Unfortunately, the other side of the story is that some men expect us to initiate contact because we now have "equal rights." I feel like if a woman wants to adopt a no-pursuing policy, she may be single for a very long time.

 

I think I need to start dating older guys, who may be more likely to make the first move.

 

 

 

That's why I joined the convent my child, I get more action now than I ever did as a single bitch.

 

 

It all depends on what age group we are talking about. I think there may be some truth to what you are saying, if speaking of the really young generation of dating. Out of curiosity are you of younger or older age? But then again, if courting was something totally antiquated that only old women respond to why are all the current dating shows still so big on the man wowing the women?

 

I remember meeting a guy from Italy who was vacationing in my home town. We exchanged numbers and he was staying about an hour drive outside of the city with family. When I saw his number I realized that he was long distance and right away he said (I'll tell you exactly what he said since I found it to be cute and funny) "no no principessa you can have my number but you must not waste any money to call me, please allow me to call you it's not right for you to spend money on me" The guy was 28, so not exactly Humphrey Bogart's generation and yet his reaction was very much that it was his duty to make the call to pursue me. We met up for a few dates and even though I was the one doing the planning since I new the city well, he was the one who took charge every time.

 

Not all men are caught up in the tit for tat of who does what, a lot of men are not confused and know exactly how to court a woman. It may just be a matter of where they are from?

 

When in Rome....

[Isolde]

That's why I joined the convent my child, I get more action now than I ever did as a single bitch.

 

 

I didn't know you were an actual nun--that's an interesting perspective to bring to LS!

 

I'm 22, and have been on a handful of dates with guys around in their early twenties up to around 25 years old. I was thinking dating people a little older may help me find the assertiveness I want in a relationship.

[zhsoj]

I didn't know you were an actual nun--that's an interesting perspective to bring to LS!

 

I'm 22, and have been on a handful of dates with guys around in their early twenties up to around 25 years old. I was thinking dating people a little older may help me find the assertiveness I want in a relationship.

 

I'm really curious as to what you mean by assertiveness as maybe it would help me understand my own situation better. I'm not a terribly assertive person, but then I don't have a problem leading to a certain degree; I'd rather be with equals rather than have followers. So I wonder, if you want the guy to "take charge", what does that really mean (I'm assuming you don't want to locked in a dungeon 24/7)? And how do you show interest so that he knows to continue?

 

Currently I'm pretty much convinced that the girl I'm seeing has no interest. I just don't see it. But then she hasn't told me to get lost. It seems to me that if you aren't willing to reciprocate interest really clearly, you are likely to fall into this trap with guys that simply don't know you are interested. Or you will go the other way and have guys that continue to chase when you aren't interested simply because they have been told that some women don't want to show interest... Which is what I'm currently worried about.

 

What's with all the ambiguity? Isn't human interaction difficult enough?

[Kamille]

Currently I'm pretty much convinced that the girl I'm seeing has no interest. I just don't see it. But then she hasn't told me to get lost. It seems to me that if you aren't willing to reciprocate interest really clearly, you are likely to fall into this trap with guys that simply don't know you are interested. Or you will go the other way and have guys that continue to chase when you aren't interested simply because they have been told that some women don't want to show interest... Which is what I'm currently worried about.

 

What's with all the ambiguity? Isn't human interaction difficult enough?

 

Well what about how you feel about her? you don't really make it sound like you two have much of a connection going on - so why would you keep asking her out?

[Isolde]

zhsoj, all I mean by assertiveness is a certain amount of leadership in the relation, per the view that men have a (slightly!) dominant role in creating romantic relationships (not necessarily in sustaining them).

 

That being said, I can tell you this: if I went on two-three dates with a guy and wasn't feeling it, I would let him know explicitly that I wasn't interested. However, if I was interested, yet he wasn't kissing me, wasn't asking me for the next date with clear specifics about what we might do, etc., I would seriously question his interest towards me. I hope this answers your question.