Trialbyfire Posted March 18, 2009 Posted March 18, 2009 Well, how I am suppose to do that? They don't have an assertive man club in the local Tri -State area that I don't know about do they? You'll find more assertive men in certain white collar industries. Maybe there's a way to hook into a network of friends, where men like this congregate. I would avoid bars and pubs. That doesn't mean you can't find someone worthwhile at one but odds are, it's more likely you're going to find a hit and run guy.
Isolde Posted March 18, 2009 Posted March 18, 2009 Yeah it could be. Or it could be a function of one's attitude. As much as I like to criticize "He's just not that into you", I did read it and I did find applying the philosophy liberating. If a guy seems wishy-washy, then I just assume he's got other things on his plate and if ever he really wants to be with me, he will let me know. Basically, I stopped wondering if guys were interested in me, analyzing their every moves to evaluate whether or not they liked me. Perhaps paradoxically, this leaves me free to just be myself around them and to really get to know them for who they are, without hopes and expectations. I've begun to aim for this, too. It's hard though: sometimes when I try just to be friendly, it gets misconstrued as serious interest where in reality it may just be testing the waters. How does one deal with that kind of thing?
Jaytb Posted March 18, 2009 Posted March 18, 2009 Personally, I think one of the most serious negative effects on male-female relationships caused by modern societal trends is the illusion that there's always something better around the corner. Of course, some women are susceptible to this idea, but I think men, in general, are much more likely to be influenced by the notion. The airbrushing/photoshopping, rampant plastic surgery, fake hair/boobs/eye color/etc. in the media and porn create an illusion of near-perfection/fantasy woman that I believe makes men less satisfied with real women. Women sense this, and overall it degrades the happiness of both parties. I think both genders are equally susceptible to "high expectation syndrome". Men seem to want a pornstar wife who cooks and cleans without complaints, while women want a prince charming, or Mr Right, or whatever. Porn is to men what Disney fairy tale romances is to women. So both men and women seemingly have this same problem. And now, women don't "need" men. This means that women can want everything from a man, but still survive if she doesn't find one. Same with men. Therefore, no one needs to put an effort into a relationship if their survival doesn't depend on it.
Kamille Posted March 18, 2009 Posted March 18, 2009 I highly doubt you go around angry Jersey Shortie. You're way too articulate for that. And I definitely think TBF has a point when she says you might simply not be noticing some of the men who are trying to catch your attention. I do wonder if maybe you're a bit reticent when you approach men. My mood varies, as I imagine everyone's does, and I know that on days when I feel energetic and playful, men respond much better to me then on days when I feel insecure. All that to say... I wonder if all you need is some flirting boot camp? I know TBF has been really helpful on this subject a few years ago when I was struggling. I've begun to aim for this, too. It's hard though: sometimes when I try just to be friendly, it gets misconstrued as serious interest where in reality it may just be testing the waters. How does one deal with that kind of thing? So let me make sure I get this straight: the problem here is that guys read your friendliness as a come on and therefore hit on you? And this is a problem because you're not that interested? Well, there is no easy way out of that one. There are ways to avoid being put in situations where they might try to kiss you: just make sure you're never alone with them (which is usually how I handle it.)
tanbark813 Posted March 18, 2009 Posted March 18, 2009 TankBark, if you keep this up, I will actually end up liking you. You also make a good point. All in a day's work.
Isolde Posted March 18, 2009 Posted March 18, 2009 Well, there is no easy way out of that one. There are ways to avoid being put in situations where they might try to kiss you: just make sure you're never alone with them (which is usually how I handle it.) I wish it were that simple. I get guys thinking that because I want to get coffee or even just talk that I want a relationship and then they reject me. Usually, the scenario is I am mildly interested, flirt, and they take it really seriously and back off. Okay, it's only happened several times, but it still scares me off from being more assertive.
Kamille Posted March 18, 2009 Posted March 18, 2009 I wish it were that simple. I get guys thinking that because I want to get coffee or even just talk that I want a relationship and then they reject me. Usually, the scenario is I am mildly interested, flirt, and they take it really seriously and back off. Okay, it's only happened several times, but it still scares me off from being more assertive. Ah yeah! That! I just had a flashback to my early twenties. That kind of stuff happened to me somewhat regularly. Very annoying. I could never gage what part of the back off was in my imagination however. That stuff fades out - or at least it did for me - so it could be an age thing as you pointed out. But still today, most men I know tend to assume that getting coffee is a sign of interest. (I read in Psychology Today that most men overestimate women's interest.) I did become less assertive as a result. Well, more easy-going flirtatious but less let's-do-something-assertive, if that makes sense.
Isolde Posted March 18, 2009 Posted March 18, 2009 Ah yeah! That! I just had a flashback to my early twenties. That kind of stuff happened to me somewhat regularly. Very annoying. I could never gage what part of the back off was in my imagination however. That stuff fades out - or at least it did for me - so it could be an age thing as you pointed out. But still today, most men I know tend to assume that getting coffee is a sign of interest. (I read in Psychology Today that most men overestimate women's interest.) I did become less assertive as a result. Well, more easy-going flirtatious but less let's-do-something-assertive, if that makes sense. Ah, I see! Be more easygoing in general, but let them ask you out... yeah, I think that's the best policy for me...
Lizzie60 Posted March 18, 2009 Posted March 18, 2009 Do Men Make Less Effort Today Than Our Father's Did? No.. I don't think that men make less effort.. I kind of think the opposite actually. I think men, are way more out there, internet or any other ways.. they are way better dads .. are better with helping in the house and with the kids.. etc.. etc.. I think they take more responsibility in the couple... BUT I have to mention that I see this more in young men.. not men older than me.. like 60 and up. Internet makes it easier for men AND women.. come on.. I think it's saving time and money.. Porn is also good for women.. I loooove porn.. you'd be surprised how often I watch it. To answer some of the questions: Do you think men approach women in public today more or less then 20 years ago? Yes.. definitely. And do you think men put in as much effort, or even want to anymore, to have a relationship? Yes.. definitely.. but not on a long term basis.. Girls? What say you? Do you think there is a decline in how men engage with real women? Not at all... I find it strange that you can't seem to get a real connection... really... I am older than you are.. (I think).. and I have had more 'offers' and connections since I've been single 6 years ago.. than I ever had when I was much younger. A lot has to do with sex.. but hey.. I also enjoy sex.. so it's all good... but I had to turn down soooo many guys because I DON'T want a relationship. Methink you come across has being very negative towards the men.. therefore a huge turn-off.. you won't attract them if you are bitter and angry at the male population.
samspade Posted March 18, 2009 Posted March 18, 2009 Methink you come across has being very negative towards the men.. therefore a huge turn-off.. you won't attract them if you are bitter and angry at the male population. True. Any time you lay your frustrations at the feet of the opposite sex (something a lot of men do, too), you're not really pinpointing the real source of the problem. The thing is, the first few weeks/months of dating a woman SHOULDN'T require that much effort. It should be easy. If, after a considerable period, she's shown that she is long term material, then I'll start thinking about putting in the proper efforts to keep her (if she's on the same page). Even then, always putting someone's needs before your own smacks of dependency low self-esteem. A guy should have the balls to do the asking out, the first kiss, and planning dates. That doesn't take much effort and it's always worked for me.
Cherry Blossom 35 Posted March 18, 2009 Posted March 18, 2009 It's great to hear some real opinions from the guys here, without all that woman bashing we've see so much lately. Thanks guys, you've made some good points. I think that when a man really wants something, he goes for it. At least that's been my experience. He may not go for it full force right away, but when he knows you are interested, if he is very interested in you, you will have no doubt he is pursuing you. I wonder how many men used to cook in our dad's day? My guy loves to cook for me. I'm lucky he's so talented in the kitchen Many things are different these days, and I could gt really down about that. Sometimes I do. But the one thing I always come back to is that I know great guys, and if I keep meeting jerks, then that doesn't mean that there aren't wonderful men out there. Some are right here on LS Jersey, I went years without a serious relationship. Don't let that get you down. It doesn't mean all guys are jerks. It just isn't your time yet. It will be, though, someday.
Chicago_Guy Posted March 18, 2009 Posted March 18, 2009 I can't help but think that men do make less time and effort to persue women today. For a million different reasons. The internet for one, now everyone just makes a "profile" and "tries" to connect with people but there doesn't seem to be any real effort or connection going on. So many options it presents that no one seems to want to focus on one person. Also for the internet, porn. I think more men probably just take the easy outlet instead of putting in the effort it takes to engage a real women and risk the rejection. Porn is great because it's all about what men want and need and lets face it, real women don't live up to it. Do you think men approach women in public today more or less then 20 years ago? And do you think men put in as much effort, or even want to anymore, to have a relationship? Guys? Do you not put the effort in anymore ? Or do you only put in the effort when it's for easy sex? Are women this worthless to men now-a-days? I am sadly beginning to think that is the case. I just don't see guys pursuing women in public or asking women out. Girls? What say you? Do you think there is a decline in how men engage with real women? I am not an unattractive girl but I can't seem to get a real connection with a guy going for over a year now when my last relationship ended. Guys just seem so tuned out to wanting to put the effort in and not having the expectations that I am only there to provide him with sex. If you want men to approach you, you should do something to let them know you are interested. Sometimes I see several attractive women standing in a circle talking to each other at singles-type events and then seem surprised when nobody approaches them. They don't understand that men are reluctant to approach women who seem unfriendly or otherwise are already occupied in conversations. I am professionally successful and I think I am good looking. However, I still can be kind of shy when I am around women whom I like but don't know in a public place (e.g., at a gym or possibly at a grocery store). A woman can make things a whole lot easier for the guy by simply giving the guy sustained eye contact and possibly also smiling (although I think that a lot of women get too nervous to smile while making extended eye contact).
Chicago_Guy Posted March 18, 2009 Posted March 18, 2009 Women are sometimes wishy washy about whom they like in the first place or game playing - because of this' date=' a guy who is a great catch is just going to sit back and let the women chase him. And in many cases, it works.[/quote'] I agree with this 100%. I actually prefer it when the woman does at least a little bit of the chasing because I at least know that she really does like me and isn't wasting my time or scamming me for free meals.
Lovelybird Posted March 18, 2009 Posted March 18, 2009 I think it is women who lower the bar that men don't have to pursue or make an effort. It is not one side problem. In old times, restrain from sex before marriage is a virtue, but now it is defined as odd by the world. Lust took place of pure love; irresponsibility took place of responsibility; cohabit took place of marriage; dirty talks took place of decency
sb129 Posted March 18, 2009 Posted March 18, 2009 And now, women don't "need" men. This means that women can want everything from a man, but still survive if she doesn't find one. Same with men. Therefore, no one needs to put an effort into a relationship if their survival doesn't depend on it. Some people put an effort into their relationship just because they want to, and even though they don't "need" it, having a R enriches their lives. thats how I feel about mine. I don't "need" my H to support me financially, I don' t "need" him to feel like a worthwhile individual. I stay with him because I "want" to , and because living with him is cool. Stats suggest that the divorce rate is alot higher than it used to be, but that doesn't necessarily mean people are less happy in their relationships- they just know they don't have to put up with the BS that women in the 50s, 60s and 70s just "put up with" because the alternative (divorce) was akin to social suicide. The good wives guide from 1955 * Have dinner ready. Plan ahead, even the night before, to have a delicious meal ready on time for his return. This is a way of letting him know that you have be thinking about him and are concerned about his needs. Most men are hungry when they get home and the prospect of a good meal is part of the warm welcome needed. * Prepare yourself. Take 15 minutes to rest so you'll be refreshed when he arrives. Touch up your make-up, put a ribbon in your hair and be fresh-looking. He has just been with a lot of work-weary people. * Be a little gay and a little more interesting for him. His boring day may need a lift and one of your duties is to provide it. * Clear away the clutter. Make one last trip through the main part of the house just before your husband arrives. Run a dustcloth over the tables. * During the cooler months of the year you should prepare and light a fire for him to unwind by. Your husband will feel he has reached a haven of rest and order, and it will give you a lift too. After all, catering to his comfort will provide you with immense personal satisfaction. * Minimize all noise. At the time of his arrival, eliminate all noise of the washer, dryer or vacuum. Encourage the children to be quiet. * Be happy to see him. * Greet him with a warm smile and show sincerity in your desire to please him. * Listen to him. You may have a dozen important things to tell him, but the moment of his arrival is not the time. Let him talk first - remember, his topics of conversation are more important than yours. * Don't greet him with complaints and problems. * Don't complain if he's late for dinner or even if he stays out all night. Count this as minor compared to what he might have gone through at work. * Make him comfortable. Have him lean back in a comfortable chair or lie him down in the bedroom. Have a cool or warm drink ready for him. * Arrange his pillow and offer to take off his shoes. Speak in a low, soothing and pleasant voice. * Don't ask him questions about his actions or question his judgment or integrity. Remember, he is the master of the house and as such will always exercise his will with fairness and truthfulness. You have no right to question him. * A good wife always knows her place. I mean really. If I was in a marriage like this, I would WANT to stick my head in the oven or gas myself the way Julianne Moores character did in "the Hours".
tanbark813 Posted March 18, 2009 Posted March 18, 2009 I mean really. If I was in a marriage like this, I would WANT to stick my head in the oven or gas myself the way Julianne Moores character did in "the Hours". That "guide" is a bit of a joke, but at the same time it comes from a time where men were the sole bread-winners. If you were the woman in a relationship where you were the sole bread-winner and your husband were the stay-at-home-spouse would those guidelines seem so unrealistic?
clv0116 Posted March 18, 2009 Posted March 18, 2009 Boxing, you forget that men don't want to support women like they once did. Some men. I'm good to go. I don't ask men out because I have never once had a promising experience with it. Well a lot of men haven't had stellar success either. Maybe it's time to put that equality to good use? Men have to just get used to the fact that rejection is normal and forge onward anyway. Go for it! You're lowly opinion of women doesn't need to be put in this thread. I'm almost starting to think you're doing that on purpose. No one can be so fantastically and consistently wrong. Grammatically and factually, one more and it's a genuine hat trick. I love women in general and several in particular. I ask women out, take them on fun dates, bring flowers when they don't expect it and in I am in general just, as one girl recently described it, enchanting. In person. Here not so much, I let some tact slip here in the interests if being honest. The fact is that in person what you say is not nearly so important as how you say it, and that doesn't translate here. If we met in person, you'd like me and I'd be charming to you. This place isn't about that, it's about honest opinion.
sb129 Posted March 18, 2009 Posted March 18, 2009 That "guide" is a bit of a joke, but at the same time it comes from a time where men were the sole bread-winners. If you were the woman in a relationship where you were the sole bread-winner and your husband were the stay-at-home-spouse would those guidelines seem so unrealistic? Weeellll. I wouldn't want him to be such a doormat- his opinions matter too! And I am not a major fan of being fussed over. I guess if I had grown up in 1955 I would be conditioned to accept this. I didn't though, so I don't. I know what you mean though Tan. Welcome back BTW, hows your ladyfriend?.
Woggle Posted March 18, 2009 Posted March 18, 2009 When we meet a woman that warrants that kind of effort we do make it but most women today are barely worth getting out of bed for. Plus if a man tries to talk to a woman today she will most likely accuse him of harrassment, insult him or at the least give him a dirty look. Why try and talk to somebody who is just going to be hostile anyway?
clv0116 Posted March 18, 2009 Posted March 18, 2009 The airbrushing/photoshopping, rampant plastic surgery, fake hair/boobs/eye color/etc. in the media and porn create an illusion of near-perfection/fantasy woman that I believe makes men less satisfied with real women. Women sense this, and overall it degrades the happiness of both parties. Sometimes probably. I've been around a lot of younger guys, virgins mostly, who think fake boobs 'look good' but that just tells me they've never had their hands on enough of them.
mr.dream merchant Posted March 18, 2009 Posted March 18, 2009 Alot of women give off that "don't approach me" vibe to be honest. Even if you do look good, they just aren't that approachable. I used to approach females all the time until I met my GF. Someone mentioned it before but in most cases you'll find that alot of females today really aren't worth that pursuit. I pursued my GF out of all of them because she had alot of classic qualities that females these days don't have. One she had class, she wasn't putting out for anybody until she got to know them, and in my case, it took two months. Two, she's a family girl, spends lots of time with her cousins, mother, and grandma. Three, she cooks. When she told me she cooks, I wifed her up that very moment. Not because I want a housewife, but because cooking seems like a long lost talent for alot of women. Women these days spends so much time getting ****faced at parties and clubs and knocking boots with guys they don't even know that it just makes you uninterested. They seem like they have commitment issues. Now just to be fair, my GF is quite the catch. If you've read my other thread you'll also know she's ****ing crazy. So who knows what position I'd be in with any of those other females I was talking to when I first met my GF. Its nuts because my GF is a twin, and her twin sister is just the opposite. Her sister hangs out with a 40 year old independent mother of two, who just happens to be liberated. All they do every weekend is go to the club, get drunk, and go home with guys they just met. No guy wants to pursue that any further than just getting some ass because that's the vibe they're giving off. The whole point is, show guys that you're worth it, and if they're not dumb as rocks, they'll take the bait.
Cherry Blossom 35 Posted March 18, 2009 Posted March 18, 2009 I think it is women who lower the bar that men don't have to pursue or make an effort. It is not one side problem. In old times, restrain from sex before marriage is a virtue, but now it is defined as odd by the world. Lust took place of pure love; irresponsibility took place of responsibility; cohabit took place of marriage; dirty talks took place of decency I agree with this, but I have to say that this cannot be all put at women's feet. The fact is that if you want to hold off sex, if you want to actually get to know the guy a little first, then you WILL be seen as odd and most men won't pursue it any further. We've had several men on this forum state that they wouldn't. I've had sex many times before I thought it was wise to do so, just because I felt like that was expected at that point of the RL. It is what men expect these days.
mr.dream merchant Posted March 18, 2009 Posted March 18, 2009 I agree with this, but I have to say that this cannot be all put at women's feet. The fact is that if you want to hold off sex, if you want to actually get to know the guy a little first, then you WILL be seen as odd and most men won't pursue it any further. We've had several men on this forum state that they wouldn't. I've had sex many times before I thought it was wise to do so, just because I felt like that was expected at that point of the RL. It is what men expect these days. Only problem with that is if the guy is really placing that weight on your shoulders about sex, why would you want to be with him? He should respect that if you're not ready you're not ready. And if he leaves you because you didn't **** him. Then what did you lose? I'd say its equivalent to flushing a turd down the toilet. You didn't lose anything worth having.
SpanksTheMonkey Posted March 18, 2009 Posted March 18, 2009 Well you ladies now are "sexually liberated". So it is easy for guys to have sex. Also you do not cook. A primary motivator for men to get married young, used to be sex.. Now young women do NOT want to get married. They want school, work, career, etc. So, they can't offer much BUT sex. Who dose not cook? I do maybe I'm a dying breed tho prob...any ways I don't think its that they don't want real relationships. I mean look at how many guys here on LS are looking for love asking about this and that how to approach women and so on. Its just that life seams so much more complicated now adays and the Internet has helped to alienate us all even more! If it was around it would have been the same 20 30 years ago except men had no other choice what so ever but to approach women back then.. porn is a fantasy thats all when used in the correct terms its a means to an end nothing more... Men take easy sex because women will put out simple as that! doesn't make it right but thats just the truth allot of women and men for that matter have become "easy" now adays..
boxing123 Posted March 18, 2009 Posted March 18, 2009 HMMM This is how I see it.. Younger women do not want a "serious" relationship. They want to go to college, start a career, party. Then once a bit older, 27-33, many become set in their ways. They have debt, loans, bills, used to their freedom, independence, and find it hard to connect with men. After 33, many decide a kid and family is just not for them. So they want to date, want a boyfriend, but are even further from the traditional females roles men need and desire. Of course their are exceptions. And if you do not mind settling for this type of woman, there are plenty.
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