Balthazar Posted March 16, 2009 Posted March 16, 2009 The Nice Guy is a goner; plain and simple. He will get only what is freely given to him, and it usually isn't good. Will he finish last? Without a doubt. Will he find someone to appreciate him for "what he is"? Maybe, but if he grew a set of balls he could do so much better than that and go after the women he wants - not the ones that choose him. I don't like the PUA philosophy as presented by certain posters. Many PUA's think of women as objects and nothing more. I have nothing but disdain for such men, I think The Big Question presented some valid points on true PUA mentality. Women are to be savored like a fine wine. Personally, I try to show women that I enjoy their company and appreciate their femininity and what they offer. And yes, they can offer a whole lot! If they are on the same wavelength, we can have a good time and who knows where it will lead? If they are not, I try to move on. Cheers,
Green Posted March 16, 2009 Posted March 16, 2009 Yes PUA is a broad subject these days but if your refering specificaly too that vh1 show then I would have to say you could learn a few things but that women love genuine men... so if your confident in yourself and you are a genuine and honest person and arn't afraid to do romantic things when the time is right like kiss a woman then u'll do good with woman and if your honest and respect women and demand that same honesty and respect back you'll have a good relationship if it has love
Author colosseum Posted March 18, 2009 Author Posted March 18, 2009 Hm...sounds like sometimes I just try too damn hard. I'm pretty confident in who I am and what motivates me and keeps me occupied but maybe sometimes I just over think things, especially about women. Just got to get myself out there and keep at it, right?
carhill Posted March 18, 2009 Posted March 18, 2009 This may sound simplistic but it did help me as someone who paralyzed himself with over-thinking and over-feeling relationship issues. Simply, think less and kiss more
Taramere Posted March 18, 2009 Posted March 18, 2009 In addendum, I will say that in the experiences of my friends and I, being "nice," overly accommodating, and following a lot of "traditional" dating rules with women has never been effective. This has applied for both meeting women as well as keeping relationships going. Take that for what it is. "...has never been effective". Is that so surprising? What you're saying there is that the "niceness" is a veneer you employ with an end goal. Of course people mistrust that. That said, it's inevitable that teenage/early twenties males are going to experiment with different approaches and images as part of trying to attract the opposite sex. Which involves playing around with different "who I am" veneeers. Just as young females do. Experimenting until you start to piece together an identity, philosophy and set of ethics that might not be for everyone, but that feels right for you. Start forging an independent identity for yourself, rather than just being a second rate imitation of someone else. A particular man is attracted to committed to the notion of being a complete sh*t towards women because "that's what they all like and respect deep down." Not surprising that anyone would be attracted to that philosophy. Our basic drives involve pursuing self interest. On a more sophisticated, evolved level though - we want to like and respect what we see in the mirror. Have some definition of what a "good person" is, and feel that we correspond to that definition to a reasonable degree. What better than a theory which tells you "just follow your basic drives, switch your humanity off and you'll be a fine, authentic human being..."? The catch is that people tend to seek meaningful relationships where they bond not just sexually with the other person, but on an emotional, intellectual and philosophical level too. So for the narcissist who truly does believe that behaving in a selfish, hostile manner is The Way to be a great person, the philosophical connection should be made when he meets an equally narcissistic woman. In reality, the ******* meets the *******tte and loathes her. But if he likes and admires his own self absorption and impulsive, aggressive approach...why wouldn't he appreciate (from a philosophical perspective) a woman who reflects these things? That's when the philosophy of selfishness he's felt so inspired by falls to the wayside in a flourish of that proud hypocrisy we're supposed to coo over admiringly. "We can do away with old fashioned notions about men being gentlemen...but for God's sake, women should be ladies. I fully appreciate that many men feel that women adopt the same view...ie "we shouldn't have to behave like 'ladies', but isn't it awful that chivalry among men is dying out?" The inconsistencies become almost grotesque to observe. On the one hand you have this guy who makes a grand noise about not caring what others - particularly women - think of him. Boasting about being an ******* and trying to turn the business of *******ry into some meaningful philosophy. There's a certain mentality that commonly emerges in this whole nice guy versus bad guy/PUA which I expressed feelings about a few days ago in relation to a thread on another board. This recent post stood out to me as a great suggestion to be something more than just another 10 a penny narcissist seeking out confirmation (from the most dysfunctional sources he can find) that he's found all the answers. ....seeing this as the end stage of your personal development is ****ing tragic. You will just morph into another selfish cvnt frittering away his life in a destructive and immature society....99% of everyone will just do what makes them feels good. The 1% will hold themselves to their values regardless of personal feelings. You don't have to die like a spartan at thermopylae, but there is a lesson here for the struggles in your own life. Becoming a better person by recognising and taking responsibility for one's own narcissistic tendencies (which might be every bit as present in the "nice guy/girl" veneer as in the "*******" one) rather than continually attributing them to the opposite sex. Maybe that's the struggle.
CommitmentPhobe Posted March 18, 2009 Posted March 18, 2009 Who wins: the pick-up artist The PUA wins, until he meets a genuine woman he is really interested in. At that point he gets shot down because she's not at all impressed by the notches on his bedpost or his ego driven attitute. The PUA then falls apart because he realises that he's only worked on his opening and not on the part of the game that matters. Can you ever really respect someone that spends their time on this planet thinking about a ladder theory on women? To use your stereotype, PUA's are egocentric and just too one dimensional. Nice guys have no backbone and are too one dimensional. It doesn't take too much brain power to figure out that both are driven by insecurity and while one feigns confidence the other wears their lack of it like an ill fitting suit.
Phateless Posted March 18, 2009 Posted March 18, 2009 Dating philosophy question here: all opinions welcome from all you LSers. And please, I'm not trying to be arrogant; I just want to share with you my context. Ladies have told me I'm "quite cute" and that I should be more confident with myself. Having been raised to be a "gentleman" I didn't do much else that be the traditional "nice guy." Yet I found myself starting to slip into the stereotype of "finishing last" as that nice guy. Not wanting to be in last-place, I adopted the "no more Mr. Nice Guy" philosophy and admit to having perused the internet looking at these "pick-up artist" tricks and gimmicks (please--no judging, just trying to learn) . I have gone on to employ them and have gone so far as to come off a couple times as a jerk, losing my prospective dates. Needless to say, I didn't want that. Some of you may say that I haven't perfected that art yet, which is probably true, but I don't know that I want to. I may sound like a 15yr old virgin but I'm not; I'm older than 18 and have been with several women, but am still trying to figure out these dating philosophies. The easy answer is that I have to find the middle ground, right? I want to be genuine, but still able to meet lots of attractive women. Is this reconcilable? Rather, a simpler question might be: Who wins: the pick-up artist or Mr. Nice Guy? All opinions/thoughts/advice welcome. I've said it before and I'll say it again: Game is not about memorizing lines and routines or following instructions blindly. The purpose of reading is to trigger epiphanies, change your perspective, and make you a better person. For me, Game was about finally understanding the basic rules and protocols that had eluded me for my whole life until that point. It's all just self-improvement. I have told a female friend about the whole PUA phenomenon, and her immediate response was, "I read Cosmo... what's the difference?"
Johnny80 Posted March 19, 2009 Posted March 19, 2009 OK, so this is an interesting question. I used to be a plain boring nice guy, I always got last. Not to mention I was too shy and insecure. I still am, but differently. As some, I did read into some PUA stuff, but never really applied it. I'm not into skanks, I get involved only with the few women I really care and, to be honest, I usually get a good response. Deep down I'm a nice guy, but as someone else put it, I'm a nice guy with an edge. I have interesting hobbies and am mostly an interesting person. I can talk really easily with women now, and most of my female friends will definitely say I'm sexy. I did learn some interesting things from PUA textbooks, but mostly would've easily been learned from somewhere else. I learned how to read body language really well and overcame my shyness in some aspects which really makes me a balanced guy, although I there's always things I need to work on since, deep down, I'm still a shy guy. Basically that's it. I'm somewhere on the middle ground, but since I look for stable relationships I'm usually already taken anyway (not at the moment though).
Phateless Posted March 19, 2009 Posted March 19, 2009 OK, so this is an interesting question. I used to be a plain boring nice guy, I always got last. Not to mention I was too shy and insecure. I still am, but differently. As some, I did read into some PUA stuff, but never really applied it. I'm not into skanks, I get involved only with the few women I really care and, to be honest, I usually get a good response. Deep down I'm a nice guy, but as someone else put it, I'm a nice guy with an edge. I have interesting hobbies and am mostly an interesting person. I can talk really easily with women now, and most of my female friends will definitely say I'm sexy. I did learn some interesting things from PUA textbooks, but mostly would've easily been learned from somewhere else. I learned how to read body language really well and overcame my shyness in some aspects which really makes me a balanced guy, although I there's always things I need to work on since, deep down, I'm still a shy guy. Basically that's it. I'm somewhere on the middle ground, but since I look for stable relationships I'm usually already taken anyway (not at the moment though). That's exactly what I'm talking about. It gave you a definite help. Their mission statement is "to teach men the things their fathers never taught them."
Trialbyfire Posted March 19, 2009 Posted March 19, 2009 That word "game" is always disturbing. It's about as real as WoW. Why don't you guys just look within yourselves and get a really good feel about who you are? Then, take a look at who you want to be. Match the two up and whatever falls out, change within yourselves to a reasonable degree? Once you've done that, you're going to be happier about yourselves and that will shine through as confidence. Sure, you're going to find women who enjoy the "game". The only problem is what's beneath "game". Most often, game is about the superficial. If there's nothing solid underneath the veneer, nothing worth sourcing, how do you propose to have a deep, meaningful relationship?
Stockalone Posted March 19, 2009 Posted March 19, 2009 Why don't you guys just look within yourselves and get a really good feel about who you are? Then, take a look at who you want to be. Match the two up and whatever falls out, change within yourselves to a reasonable degree? I think that is exactly what phateless was talking about. Many men who get nowhere with women look into the PUA stuff. What they do is not working, so they look for help to change that. The reason why the PUA stuff is being looked into, is simple. As a guy, that is what you see actually working in real life. Not the "women are worthless and only good for one thing" approach. But if you disregard that, what a naturally successful man does around women is not that different. After all, the natural is the blue print for success. And if you look close enough, there will be patterns as to why they are successful and you are not. Once you've done that, you're going to be happier about yourselves and that will shine through as confidence. I am not so sure about that. You need to be either an instant success with women based on your personality for that confidence to come naturally or you have to actually have success with women to get that confidence. At least that is how it is for me and many other man I have known. No matter how confident, successful and/or happy I was about other aspects of my life, that never translated to confidence or success with women. If there's nothing solid underneath the veneer, nothing worth sourcing, how do you propose to have a deep, meaningful relationship? Eventually, that will come into play. But when you are looking for a way to just get a foot in the door, thinking about a deep, meaningful relationship is not going to help with the task at hand.
Phateless Posted March 19, 2009 Posted March 19, 2009 That word "game" is always disturbing. It's about as real as WoW. Why don't you guys just look within yourselves and get a really good feel about who you are? Then, take a look at who you want to be. Match the two up and whatever falls out, change within yourselves to a reasonable degree? Once you've done that, you're going to be happier about yourselves and that will shine through as confidence. Sure, you're going to find women who enjoy the "game". The only problem is what's beneath "game". Most often, game is about the superficial. If there's nothing solid underneath the veneer, nothing worth sourcing, how do you propose to have a deep, meaningful relationship? TBF, I think you and I respect each other, I'm asking you to trust me on my credibility here. Yes, there is definitely the negative element of the PUA community and Game, but that doesn't define it inherently any more than the few womanizer ***hole men define the entire gender. What the transition from nice guy to PUA is about is for men learning how to talk to women and connect. Many men just have no CLUE how to interact with women because they're afraid of them, and just don't know how it works. I used to be included in that group. For me, I just needed to learn what I was doing wrong, time and again. Now that I understand the process, I can use it to meet and get to know lots of different women, and then choose who I want to spend my time getting to know deeply. How many women have been creeped out by a guy who was decent looking but poorly dressed, nice and friendly but very awkward and needy, etc etc etc. Haven't you ever thought "he needs to get a clue!" Well......... I got a clue. I asked my good looking womanizer friends how they got girls to like them and they could never explain it to me. I felt so desperate and alone and worthless, I could not figure out "WHY DON'T WOMEN LIKE ME? AM I UGLY? AM I ANNOYING? WHAT THE HELL AM I DOING WRONG?!" It's just a matter of learning how to interact with women in a way that they are comfortable with so that I can present myself as I truly am, and give them a chance to get to know and like me. Who knew that something so simple as a warm smile and saying "you dork. :)" would make a girl smile like that. I sure as hell didn't.
Author colosseum Posted March 19, 2009 Author Posted March 19, 2009 Who knew that something so simple as a warm smile and saying "you dork. :)" would make a girl smile like that. I sure as hell didn't. Ah! But it can't be that easy, right? Blast!
Phateless Posted March 20, 2009 Posted March 20, 2009 Ah! But it can't be that easy, right? Blast! heheh, sometimes it is. I think one thing that really helped me was learning to read body language and knowing little tricks to know how she's reacting to me. That way I can back off or move forward depending on how she's feeling. I also learned how to figure out who was on the same page as me, so that I wouldn't hurt anyone's feelings.
39388 Posted March 21, 2009 Posted March 21, 2009 If you want some great information and insights, go here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ladder_theory A bunch of crap to me
39388 Posted March 21, 2009 Posted March 21, 2009 I think one thing that really helped me was learning to read body language and knowing little tricks to know how she's reacting to me. That way I can back off or move forward depending on how she's feeling. I also learned how to figure out who was on the same page as me, so that I wouldn't hurt anyone's feelings. I agree. This seems to be very important. One mistake and you may be out the door.
Trialbyfire Posted March 21, 2009 Posted March 21, 2009 Question: Why live life and love so tentatively? Allow me to add to that, if it doesn't offend. JUST DO IT! We're not so fragile, are we?
yongyong Posted March 22, 2009 Posted March 22, 2009 Stop bullsxxting something like 'neh puas can only attract skanks, I am not interested in skanks' pua basically means they know how to talk to women and they won't get nervous because of hundreds or even thousands times of trying. You are nice guy, you want to take her dinner, you want to take thing slowly, you don't want to fxxk her right away since she is so special. So what?? do you think women will give you even second chance if you get nervous and messed up your speech little bit? hell no, she will think you are one of those residents from Creepville and say 'NEXT' it's about your presentation. it doesn't matter who the heck you are, what your intention is...... If you are just waiting for the one and don't want to talk to other women constantly (you are not interested in skanks huh? good excuse), good luck when you finally find one cuz you will be likely to be a creepy guy without practice.
fishtaco Posted March 22, 2009 Posted March 22, 2009 Details aside, seems like both sides of the argument are FOR improving oneself. Improving physical appearance. Improving social skills. Improving ability to read and respond to social situations. To me it sounds like it's just the usage/meaning of the terminologies that people are arguing over. So... just don't call it a "game". Problem solved. Also like yongyong said. It IS about presentation. Dating is sales and marketing. Simple as that. If you can't get people interested in your product, doesn't matter if you have the best product in the world, they won't buy. As far as the relationship goes, that's a different ball game. By then, TBF is right, the quality of the "product" does matter. However, PUA, game, poontang hunting, whatever you want to call it, does NOT apply to relationships. They are strategies for generating interest. From something as simple as making sure you don't have bad breath, to some sort of advance magic you can lay on a woman. Doesn't matter. They're meant to help you get the attraction of a woman, but has NOTHING to do with how you can keep her. That requires a whole different skill set. But it doesn't get invalidated. Because before a relationship can happen, you need attraction. Men with no dating skills but plenty of relationship skills - the most awesome guy with all his female friends rooting for him to one day find the right woman, but it never seems to happen. But of course all those friends that are rooting for him all cite different flavors of "no chemistry" as to why they themselves won't date him. Men with dating skills but no relationship skills - the typical bad boy jerk. Get hot chick, lose hot chick. He's the winner that everyone try to emulate until he wants to settle down, then he becomes the loser. So the only people that can win are good guys that learned to be bad, or bad guys that learned to be good. You can call this learning "game", "nice guy with an edge", or any other terminology. Makes no difference. It is what it is. And if it works, it works.
monkey00 Posted March 22, 2009 Posted March 22, 2009 I think all the major points have been covered by everyone else so far. The only input I'll say is that the typical nice guy has to learn at one point or another to be more selfish and more spontaneous. More selfish towards his needs and broaden his personality so it will be fun to be around him. Not everyone is interested in being in a relationship or dating a stiff/boring person. Hence as others say 'nice guy with an edge'. As for the PUA - I'm sure there are attractive qualities that can be learned from this and applied to the nice guy with the edge. Though I think it's wrong to say these guys don't know how to keep a woman interested long-term or are oblivious about romance. I think the community gives them a bad name, literally that they are Pick up Artists. Though all I'm going to say is if someone is confident enough to be himself, he doesn't have to be either extreme to attract a girl. A guy can pick up better hygienic habits, groom better, dress stylish, be more social, and be more charming, work out, etc. But back to the OP, probably the former works best..the nice guy with an edge.
Isolde Posted March 22, 2009 Posted March 22, 2009 Honestly, PUA's take themselves way too seriously. It's the equivalent of "The Rules" followers, for women. If both genders feel they are the prize--how will real relationships ever form? I really wish we would see both men and women invest more energy in finding compatibility, resulting in a greater number of threads on this forum on that topic, as opposed to generalization threads like these.
Sam Spade Posted March 22, 2009 Posted March 22, 2009 If both genders feel they are the prize--how will real relationships ever form? I think it's actually necessary at the very early stages, but only from the male side of the equation (simply because girls are so unaccustomed to this). It does not work the other way around. After that, people should forget about that, and most do - no mature person will seriously believe that they're the best thing on earth since hot water. Sure, healthy self-respect and a little cockiness are a must, but that's pretty much it. So, the verdict still is - nice guy with mad skillz. The whole confusion about the nice guys stems from indiscriminately assuming that if somebody is nice, they've got no self-respect (this is true only some of the time), while if they're bad boy, they've got a lot of self-respect (which is probably true most of the time, and it's not self respect, just being inconsiderate of other's needs). So, while there is miniscule grain of truth in these sweeping generalizations, they are just unfortunate correlations that have nothing to do with the real deal . I think that the girlies that came up with this dichotomy need to go back to college and take "Research methods" again, because the whole logic is whack .
Author colosseum Posted March 22, 2009 Author Posted March 22, 2009 I really wish we would see both men and women invest more energy in finding compatibility, resulting in a greater number of threads on this forum on that topic, as opposed to generalization threads like these. To be honest, I deliberately made this thread general so that one could see the variety of opinions & thoughts...
era Posted March 22, 2009 Posted March 22, 2009 To be honest, I deliberately made this thread general so that one could see the variety of opinions & thoughts... You are always starting threads like this one, under the guise of just some general thoughts. I have read your posts. IMO you are desperate to to glean tips on how to p/u women. Hope you're learning lots.
Recommended Posts