colosseum Posted March 16, 2009 Posted March 16, 2009 Dating philosophy question here: all opinions welcome from all you LSers. And please, I'm not trying to be arrogant; I just want to share with you my context. Ladies have told me I'm "quite cute" and that I should be more confident with myself. Having been raised to be a "gentleman" I didn't do much else that be the traditional "nice guy." Yet I found myself starting to slip into the stereotype of "finishing last" as that nice guy. Not wanting to be in last-place, I adopted the "no more Mr. Nice Guy" philosophy and admit to having perused the internet looking at these "pick-up artist" tricks and gimmicks (please--no judging, just trying to learn) . I have gone on to employ them and have gone so far as to come off a couple times as a jerk, losing my prospective dates. Needless to say, I didn't want that. Some of you may say that I haven't perfected that art yet, which is probably true, but I don't know that I want to. I may sound like a 15yr old virgin but I'm not; I'm older than 18 and have been with several women, but am still trying to figure out these dating philosophies. The easy answer is that I have to find the middle ground, right? I want to be genuine, but still able to meet lots of attractive women. Is this reconcilable? Rather, a simpler question might be: Who wins: the pick-up artist or Mr. Nice Guy? All opinions/thoughts/advice welcome.
Tony T Posted March 16, 2009 Posted March 16, 2009 Depends on what your idea of a winner is. Besides, there's no way of knowing the answer. Every person has to strike an incredible middle ground where they're not to nice...and not too macho. Women absolutely know when you're faking either and they don't like it. I always found an attitude of not caring about the outcome one way or the other, AND MEANING IT, got me the most distance. Other than that, don't be too pushy. Make your approach and pull back. It's a fine science and you've simply got to get good at it. Sometimes you'll score and sometimes you won't, regardless of how you do it. If you want some great information and insights, go here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ladder_theory Priceless information FOR FREE!! Here it is explained very simply, with pictures: http://www.laddertheory.com/ Here's another, more scientific, verson: http://ladder.politicals.com/
I'm Joe Posted March 16, 2009 Posted March 16, 2009 It depends on what you consider winning. If you consider nailing random club hotties on the weekends then I guess The Jerk wins. But if you consider having a successful long term relationship, settling down and and getting married to the right person winning then Mr. nice guy wins.. As the jerk though I dont really see what your problem is, your 18 and you have already been with several women. Am I missing something? you seem to be doing okay on that front. what are you looking for? An orgy every friday with supermodels?
yongyong Posted March 16, 2009 Posted March 16, 2009 well I wanted to meet a woman who can truly appreciate who I am. but i figured it could take a decade. especially in this culture. You usually get only one audition chance. You can **** it up just by saying something inappropriate or getting nervous. women love smooth guy even though she knows it's 100% genuine. (Btw ,w t f is being genuine? admitting that 'I am in love with you?' lol) It's like a good sales person who make you feel like you have to buy something from him. As far as pua stuff goes, I am sure you just memorized some lines and threw at those girls without working on your personality First. I say PUA wins for sure. Girls might say nice guy wins here but when they meet both , they will go for pua (in my definition, a guy who knows how to talk smoothly to women)
SoulSearch_CO Posted March 16, 2009 Posted March 16, 2009 Being the nice guy will attract the woman that you'd be more compatible with, anyway - as long as that's what you really are: the nice guy. I never understood pretending to be something that one is not just to attract others. Wouldn't that attract people that aren't compatible with who you are at the core? Sure, you could get higher quantity, but at the sacrifice of quality? Why? Ego-stroke? Just be the nice guy. They don't always finish last. My BF is a nice guy - not the "smooth-talker" by any means. He's the best SO I've had yet. Edited to add: Any woman of true quality will smell "Pick-up Artist" from a mile away and not be impressed.
Taramere Posted March 16, 2009 Posted March 16, 2009 I have gone on to employ them and have gone so far as to come off a couple times as a jerk, losing my prospective dates. Needless to say, I didn't want that. Some of you may say that I haven't perfected that art yet, which is probably true, but I don't know that I want to. A boss one time told me (when I was in a new job) "You have to be more confident". I answered "I'll be more confident when I've achieved something meaningful to be confident about". He challenged me on that, and fairly I guess. Perhaps I go too far in the opposite direction, at times, in thinking that people should develop the substance first and then the confidence. It's just, I suppose, that I see an aura of supreme confidence as the number one tool of the conman whose aim is to exploit the gullible and weak. If targets challenge the conman or threaten him in any way that's likely to expose the confidence as a thin veneer masking a ton of dysfunctions and insecurities, he'll deride or try to shame them into silence. Pick up artistry seems to be based along the same principles. "Women want confident men. Portray supreme confidence and security at all times, and the world will be yours." I react against it instinctively, because I have a tendency to associate noise and bravado with lack of real substance. People who spend a lot of time window dressing themselves for others, but little or no time improving what's within. That might be unfair - but the perfect balance is impossible to strike every time. The easy answer is that I have to find the middle ground, right? I want to be genuine, but still able to meet lots of attractive women. Is this reconcilable? Rather, a simpler question might be: Who wins: the pick-up artist or Mr. Nice Guy? If you want to meet lots of attractive women, being physically attractive yourself is pretty important. Or, at least, having a look and a style that attracts attention and looks cool. You want to be genuine too. Well, there will be times you can't be both - regardless of what anyone else wants to tell you about having your cake and eating it. You only need to think of the advertising industry or PR spin to recognise that in order to rapidly get the attention of a big percentage of the population you have to bullsh*t, overstate your talents or just be so obnoxious that people find it possible to ignore you. You sound a rational, sensible guy. I'm sure that without anyone's help, you're probably pretty well equipped to find your middle ground. Maybe what you're wondering about is which extreme it's best to gravitate towards on the occasions that you just can't find that middle ground. In other words, who are you deep down? At crunch time?
Art_Critic Posted March 16, 2009 Posted March 16, 2009 Here it is explained very simply, with pictures: http://www.laddertheory.com/ I love it!!..... It takes a while to read the entire ladder theory but well worth the read, and funny too There are exactly 3 cases whereby a guy and a girl can be friends: 1. The guy is gay 2. The guy does not find the you attractive 3. The guy already has a woman much higher than you on the ladder That sums up some of what the nice guy has to deal with.. no, you cannot be friends with a woman...unless.......
Woggle Posted March 16, 2009 Posted March 16, 2009 The pick up artist gets more women but in the end the nice guy with a backbone ends up getting the quality. Who really wants the skanks the pick up artist gets anyway?
St. Nick Posted March 16, 2009 Posted March 16, 2009 The pick up artist gets more women but in the end the nice guy with a backbone ends up getting the quality. Who really wants the skanks the pick up artist gets anyway? I want the skanks. So therefore I'd say the pickup artist wins. I say women are women and don't worry about trivialties.
Woggle Posted March 16, 2009 Posted March 16, 2009 I want the skanks. So therefore I'd say the pickup artist wins. I say women are women and don't worry about trivialties. As long as you don't expect anything but some cheap thrills from them have a ball with the skanks. Just make sure to use protection becuase if you get one pregnant she can make your life a living hell.
runner Posted March 16, 2009 Posted March 16, 2009 Dating philosophy question here: all opinions welcome from all you LSers. Who wins: the pick-up artist or Mr. Nice Guy? All opinions/thoughts/advice welcome. in extreme cases, neither. women (or people in general really), can easily pick up on the fake confidence crap and know that you've been reading on PUA stuff; likewise, the nice guy is too boring have a women attracted to him. don't be a nice guy, be a great guy. and that means genuinely interesting and not clingy.
kashmir Posted March 16, 2009 Posted March 16, 2009 I've read into pick-up stuff too. It works, but on GIRLS. Stupid girls. There's a guy I see every week who blatantly see in a lab that uses this stuff on the girls there. It works, but it makes him look like a total tool. Do you know how stupid some of that crap sounds to other guys or girls with a brain? The stupid random opinion questions sound really dumb and unnatural. So he might seduce some dumb girls...at the expense of any self-respect and intelligence he might have left!
reservoirdog1 Posted March 16, 2009 Posted March 16, 2009 Nice guys do finish last. And the problem with being a successful "player" was set out in a pretty revealing way in "The Game" by Neill Strauss: most of those guys become very good at the pickup and at getting laid, but they haven't the first damn clue about how to keep a woman interested beyond a month or two, or how to keep a relationship going. Which really sucks for them when they find somebody they really like (for more than a night or two, anyway). So, for long-term happiness, your best bet is to shoot for somewhere in the middle. AKA "Nice Guy with an Edge". I interpret that to mean being a basically decent guy, treating women well, but having a few cool things in your life that women find attractive, and that you're passionate and a little bit cocky about. (And no, playing online video games doesn't count.) Could be a sport, music, travel, whatever. Something in your life beyond work, sleep, and drinking with friends.
Chicago_Guy Posted March 16, 2009 Posted March 16, 2009 The pick up artist gets more women but in the end the nice guy with a backbone ends up getting the quality. Who really wants the skanks the pick up artist gets anyway? I agree 100%. I'll take a hot quality woman over 10 dirty skanks stupid enough to fall for the "pick up artist" any day of the week!
Stockalone Posted March 16, 2009 Posted March 16, 2009 Who really wants the skanks the pick up artist gets anyway? At least not a guy who has at least some self-respect. Who wins: the pick-up artist or Mr. Nice Guy? The good men win. The pick-up artists get laid and don't lose if that is all they are after. Who loses are the men that can't attract and keep a good woman. It doesn't matter if you are too shy, too boring or if you are a doormat who won't stand up for himself. If you can't attract and keep a good woman, you will lose.
Sam Spade Posted March 16, 2009 Posted March 16, 2009 Nice guys do finish last. And the problem with being a successful "player" was set out in a pretty revealing way in "The Game" by Neill Strauss: most of those guys become very good at the pickup and at getting laid, but they haven't the first damn clue about how to keep a woman interested beyond a month or two, or how to keep a relationship going. Which really sucks for them when they find somebody they really like (for more than a night or two, anyway). So, for long-term happiness, your best bet is to shoot for somewhere in the middle. AKA "Nice Guy with an Edge". I interpret that to mean being a basically decent guy, treating women well, but having a few cool things in your life that women find attractive, and that you're passionate and a little bit cocky about. (And no, playing online video games doesn't count.) Could be a sport, music, travel, whatever. Something in your life beyond work, sleep, and drinking with friends. I have to agree with this... I'm pretty nice to my girlfriend, and i definitely have a "nice guy" job and attitude, as far as stereotypes are concerned, but I think I'm out of the woods for getting shafted for being a nice guy (well, she's sleeping with me anytime I want, so I guess that's good. I do get worried when she calls me a terry bear though ). But I balance the nice treatment with not calling all that often, having a kicking ass hobbies (literally), and mad style. But I also agree with the extreme views in a sense that they wouldn't be there if they were not receiving positive and negative reinforcement accordingly. No sane guy wants to be a misogynistic jerk - but, if it works it works and guys are not the ones to blame for going for what works! Of course, there is also the tendency to confuse the "I'm not taking the slightest dose of crap from you" stance with actual poor treatment, and the two are clearly not the same thing.
Alan430 Posted March 16, 2009 Posted March 16, 2009 From what i understand, PUA tools are to make a woman attracted to you initially. For a nice guy walking up to a strange woman and do his nice man stuff(complimenting her) is pretty lame and it probably wont spark any intrest in the woman. From what i have read its all about displaying confidence and to give the woman an impression you are orginal, confident and someone worth looking into. I personally dont have time to play these stupid games and well if im single for the rest of my life i will be ok with that. What i find annoying is that woman are actually susceptible to this. This whole meeting random woman thing seems to be about numbers and not really giving a damn if she receprocates any thing back. But im sure most men are like me, and only approach a woman if you actually want to get to know her for whatever reason, and not some guy who hits on every good looking woman he sees.
yongyong Posted March 16, 2009 Posted March 16, 2009 do you think those pua stuff is for skanks? well I am sure almost all guys here are nice guys like me( why do you browse internet for relationship then ) but they just don't want to admit. well it's good for their ego to say 'hey I am not interested in picking up skanks' what about for women? it's good for them to say 'a classy& smart woman like me won't fall those pua guys' I approached hundreds of women. skanks, classy, religious (mormon), desperate, fat. they are all the same. you need to know how to talk to them with right body language and tonality. I think learing what to say isn't that hard but changing body language is about feeling good about yourself &being comfortable with women, it takes great amount of effort and time.
Art_Critic Posted March 16, 2009 Posted March 16, 2009 Could someone please define "Skank" for me as it is being applied on this thread ? If a PUA picks up and sleeps with as many women as he can bed in a month using lines and games then doesn't that make him a "Skank" too ?
Stockalone Posted March 16, 2009 Posted March 16, 2009 Could someone please define "Skank" for me as it is being applied on this thread ? If a PUA picks up and sleeps with as many women as he can bed in a month using lines and games then doesn't that make him a "Skank" too ? I didn't know the term "skank", but the dictionary said it means slut. So those women mentioned in this thread would be sluts and the PUA would be male sluts. At least that is my definition.
Trialbyfire Posted March 16, 2009 Posted March 16, 2009 I have to admit that PUA tactics can work...to a degree. I've seen it happen on LS, where some of the guys are using the tactic that they are the prize and women have to prove themselves, to get their interest and/or approval. I really think women should read some of this stuff so they can see right through it. Watch for the hook! Having said all that, a PUA doesn't have a clue about long-term viability. They get trapped in their personal godhood, some addicted to the chase, and never, ever succeed in a relationship, thus self-prophesizing their own failure.
justme2781 Posted March 16, 2009 Posted March 16, 2009 hate teh pick up artist i think he is not attractive and kind of annoying. i think it sall about chenmistry.
TheBigQuestion Posted March 16, 2009 Posted March 16, 2009 People in this thread have been talking about PUA as if all PUA philosophies are the same and are also omitting a lot of important information. For starters, any PUA guidebook emphasizes the creation of "inner game" first and foremost. That means developing worthwhile hobbies and interests and just generally improving your self-image. The thing that makes a "true" PUA so appealing to women isn't the stereotypical lines and questions that you might see on the VH-1 show about PUAs. It's simply the fact that they are generally quite secure in themselves and also lead varied, exciting, and productive lives. Feeling at least decently secure in your own abilities in life in general makes it a lot easier for that same ease-of-mind to exist in one's relations with women. Most of the "lines" that you might hear guys throwing around are usually just meant as an exercise in order to get more comfortable around women, but they're never at the core of PUA. If you read about it enough you'll realize that body language, tone of voice, and how one reacts to what a woman says in general is far more important than anything else. Women are usually very good at picking up subtle "vibes" and whatnot, whereas most men are clueless. PUA theory often centers around becoming more sensitive to subtle messages and how to act accordingly. The PUA doesn't always necessarily lose, and the Nice Guy doesn't always necessarily win when it comes to long-term relationships. Most PUAs, whether they know it or not, actually DO have what it takes to make a relationship last. The key to making a relationship work is to avoid 3 things: 1. Insecurity, 2. A sudden emergence of major incompatibility, and especially 3. Boredom. PUAs usually understand that the key to create lasting attraction is to never become too complacent or typical. PUAs also have numbers on their side: you're more likely to meet a worthwhile woman if you actually TALK to a lot of them. Nice Guys are nearly always doormats and thus aren't all that attractive to most women, unless the woman in question is extremely manipulative. In general, being a Nice Guy usually just means that when it comes down to it, you don't have the balls to go after what you want. Trying to be a pick-up artist gives you a leg-up on a lot of things, but depending on what your intentions are, you can be just as pathetic as the Nice Guy.
TheBigQuestion Posted March 16, 2009 Posted March 16, 2009 In addendum, I will say that in the experiences of my friends and I, being "nice," overly accommodating, and following a lot of "traditional" dating rules with women has never been effective. This has applied for both meeting women as well as keeping relationships going. Take that for what it is.
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