Are there non-sexist men who aren't attracted to stereotypically strong women?

[shadowplay]

This is kind of a spin off of BEG's thread.

 

Like BEG I've gone through periods of being insecure that I don't fit the mold of what progressive, educated men find attractive.

 

There are a lot of sexist men out there who are into traditionally submissive women. At the other end of the spectrum lie educated beta males who pine after very independent, outgoing, driven women that will never put any demands on them (or so they fantasize).

 

The problem is I fit somewhere in the middle. I'm driven in some ways, but I'm also shy/demure and I like my guy to take the lead sometimes. While I can be independent, I enjoy a guy who will offer to help, somebody I can lean on when I need him, somebody who doesn't complain about being helpful but takes pleasure in helping those he cares about. I'm talking about a guy who offers to carry my things when they're heavy, who foots the bill on occasion at a restaurant, who offers his shoulder for me to cry on when I'm sad. Yet at the same time he has to treat me with respect, like an equal, and he has to have a strong sense of himself.

 

I know balanced guys like this exist, but are they just few and far between?

[boxing123]

I have found many submissive women to be TRULY strong.

 

As in, you better treat them 100% the right way, or they are gone.

 

I have seen so many women who label themselves as strong because they have a certain job, and they soak up so much crap from men it is not even funny.

 

But in your description it seems you want a doormat.. A guy always there for you when you need him, but you are also "independent". A guy to carry your things, pay for dinner, someone to lean on, someone to help you, etc..

 

Why must you add the "I am independent part".. It just sounds good to say? It seems you need a lot from a man. Do you mean independent in that you do not want to give back or be there for him?

[Sam Spade]

This is kind of a spin off of BEG's thread.

 

Like BEG I've gone through periods of being insecure that I don't fit the mold of what progressive, educated men find attractive.

 

There are a lot of sexist men out there who are into traditionally submissive women. At the other end of the spectrum lie educated beta males who pine after very independent, outgoing, driven women that will never put any demands on them (or so they fantasize).

 

The problem is I fit somewhere in the middle. I'm driven in some ways, but I'm also shy/demure and I like my guy to take the lead sometimes. While I can be independent, I enjoy a guy who will offer to help, somebody I can lean on when I need him, somebody who doesn't complain about being helpful but takes pleasure in helping those he cares about. I'm talking about a guy who offers to carry my things when they're heavy, who foots the bill on occasion at a restaurant, who offers his shoulder for me to cry on when I'm sad. Yet at the same time he has to treat me with respect, like an equal, and he has to have a strong sense of himself.

 

I know balanced guys like this exist, but are they just few and far between?

 

, as long as you're 70% demure/traditional, and 30% self-sufficient, we're good to go, baby .

 

Many in the US will consider me sexist, but that's a title I'd happily wear if it is the result of my belief that there are relatively stable gender roles, and bending them only calls for relationship trouble. I have no interest in the "outgoing, type A" high powered women. Why? One of the roles of a woman in a relationship is taking care of creating a comfortable and welcoming environment. Good luck getting that with them.

 

Anybody who refers to them as "alpha" deserves to be bitch-slapped, so I'll only say that I don't fit your description of an "educated Beta man pining over the driven woman, blah, blah". I'm highly educated (in terms of degrees anyway...), but I'm also very much in touch with the sword-swinging ancestors of mint and so I believe I am happier with my current demure, traditional asian girlfriend than with my PhD rocket scientist ex-gf.

 

So, there you go. Not only that answers your question, but also along the lines you hoped to hear. That's a rarity !

[shadowplay]

I have found many submissive women to be TRULY strong.

 

As in, you better treat them 100% the right way, or they are gone.

 

I have seen so many women who label themselves as strong because they have a certain job, and they soak up so much crap from men it is not even funny.

 

But in your description it seems you want a doormat.. A guy always there for you when you need him, but you are also "independent". A guy to carry your things, pay for dinner, someone to lean on, someone to help you, etc..

 

Why must you add the "I am independent part".. It just sounds good to say? It seems you need a lot from a man. Do you mean independent in that you do not want to give back or be there for him?

 

"Do you mean independent in that you do not want to give back or be there for him?"

 

Of course not. I want a relationship where BOTH partners give simply because they love each other, but neither complains about doing so. Also, neither keeps a running tally of what the other owes. I've dated men where I feel like I'm always giving only to get nothing in return, or to be thrown scraps begrudgingly. For example, there is nothing worse than being emotionally supportive to somebody, listening to them complain about their problems and offering advice, only to have them turn their back on you when you're down. There is nothing less appealing than a man who doesn't offer to help when a woman he's walking beside is obviously overloaded with bags. It's little things like that, but they add up.

[Taramere]

The problem is I fit somewhere in the middle. I'm driven in some ways, but I'm also shy/demure and I like my guy to take the lead sometimes. While I can be independent, I enjoy a guy who will offer to help, somebody I can lean on when I need him, somebody who doesn't complain about being helpful but takes pleasure in helping those he cares about. I'm talking about a guy who offers to carry my things when they're heavy, who foots the bill on occasion at a restaurant, who offers his shoulder for me to cry on when I'm sad. Yet at the same time he has to treat me with respect, like an equal, and he has to have a strong sense of himself.

 

I know balanced guys like this exist, but are they just few and far between?

 

Shadow - everyone is strong in some ways and vulnerable in others. Pretty much every woman I know wants to be treated with respect and wants her talents recognised by a partner, but wants to feel feminine too.

 

We're told to take accountability for ourselves and our lives, but then when we do it's classed as unfeminine. If we don't take accountability for our own actions and lives, we're immature with an unrealistic sense of entitlement. "Typical Western women". There's no end to the ways in which we can deviate from male notions of "the ideal woman"....particularly if we're talking about an intolerant man who doesn't like women much. The people who expect the most of others are often the ones who are prepared to deliver the least.

 

Some men may be laid back and tolerate quite a lot of deviations - others might throw a fit and shout "dealbreaker" at the mildest deviation. Same thing with women. Some are far more flexible than others. Hell, some women out there put up with men who are prone to explosive, verging on violent outbursts of rage because they (the women) feel that they've learned to manage the situations....and are prepared to manage them because other aspects of the relationship are good.

 

On a site like this, where people like to list their dealbreakers and the qualities their ideal partner must have, there's no room for partners who get the balance wrong sometimes. No room for people who have a problem controlling their temper. No room for weakness, dishonesty or disloyalty....because on the Internet we're all fine, upstanding models of not being perfect, but generally being well balanced.

 

In real life, we have to accept that we aren't always as great as we'd like to be, and focus on just doing our best for the people who matter to us and who are prepared to return the "doing their best" favour, even if sometimes we fail to meet up to eachothers ideals and expectations.

[Trialbyfire]

shadow, you're looking for alpha qualities in a man but one who's sensitive to your mood. I think that's a tall order. Finding an alpha who's sensitive to real need, is easier to find.

[Alan430]

This is kind of a spin off of BEG's thread.

 

Like BEG I've gone through periods of being insecure that I don't fit the mold of what progressive, educated men find attractive.

 

There are a lot of sexist men out there who are into traditionally submissive women. At the other end of the spectrum lie educated beta males who pine after very independent, outgoing, driven women that will never put any demands on them (or so they fantasize).

 

The problem is I fit somewhere in the middle. I'm driven in some ways, but I'm also shy/demure and I like my guy to take the lead sometimes. While I can be independent, I enjoy a guy who will offer to help, somebody I can lean on when I need him, somebody who doesn't complain about being helpful but takes pleasure in helping those he cares about. I'm talking about a guy who offers to carry my things when they're heavy, who foots the bill on occasion at a restaurant, who offers his shoulder for me to cry on when I'm sad. Yet at the same time he has to treat me with respect, like an equal, and he has to have a strong sense of himself.

 

I know balanced guys like this exist, but are they just few and far between?

Personally this is what i prefer. in my experiences if a woman too independent the relationship can make a man feel he is not needed so much in a relationship. Were as if they are too dependant they become baggage and weigh you down.

[Taramere]

How did that annoying glum emoticon find its way into the title of my message? Gremlins are out to get me today.

[burning 4 revenge]

How did that annoying glum emoticon find its way into the title of my message? Gremlins are out to get me today.

I put it there

[shadowplay]

Shadow - everyone is strong in some ways and vulnerable in others. Pretty much every woman I know wants to be treated with respect and wants her talents recognised by a partner, but wants to feel feminine too.

 

We're told to take accountability for ourselves and our lives, but then when we do it's classed as unfeminine. If we don't take accountability for our own actions and lives, we're immature with an unrealistic sense of entitlement. "Typical Western women". There's no end to the ways in which we can deviate from male notions of "the ideal woman"....particularly if we're talking about an intolerant man who doesn't like women much. The people who expect the most of others are often the ones who are prepared to deliver the least.

 

Some men may be laid back and tolerate quite a lot of deviations - others might throw a fit and shout "dealbreaker" at the mildest deviation. Same thing with women. Some are far more flexible than others. Hell, some women out there put up with men who are prone to explosive, verging on violent outbursts of rage because they (the women) feel that they've learned to manage the situations....and are prepared to manage them because other aspects of the relationship are good.

 

On a site like this, where people like to list their dealbreakers and the qualities their ideal partner must have, there's no room for partners who get the balance wrong sometimes. No room for people who have a problem controlling their temper. No room for weakness, dishonesty or disloyalty....because on the Internet we're all fine, upstanding models of not being perfect, but generally being well balanced.

 

In real life, we have to accept that we aren't always as great as we'd like to be, and focus on just doing our best for the people who matter to us and who are prepared to return the "doing their best" favour, even if sometimes we fail to meet up to eachothers ideals and expectations.

 

The thing is my real life requirements aren't incredibly high. I HAVE put up with a lot, often too much, in relationships. I'm willing to accept flaws, as long as they're not fatal ones. But finding a man who is both strong, confident AND compassionate, giving isn't easy in my experience.

[burning 4 revenge]

shadow, you're looking for alpha qualities in a man but one who's sensitive to your mood. I think that's a tall order. Finding an alpha who's sensitive to real need, is easier to find.

you love that word

 

i think you have a secret crush on alphamale

[Trialbyfire]

you love that word

I think that word aptly describes certain qualities that I find attractive in men, which is why I use it often. I also like the word beta, since it aptly describes the insecure qualities in certain men I don't find attractive.

[Trimmer]

I think that word aptly describes certain qualities that I find attractive in men, which is why I use it often. I also like the word beta, since it aptly describes the insecure qualities in certain men I don't find attractive.

There used to be a chain of supermarkets on the West Coast called "Alpha Beta" (maybe there still are...) The beverage aisle had nothing but caffienated drinks and beer, but they had a great section of cleaning supplies.

[Trialbyfire]

There used to be a chain of supermarkets on the West Coast called "Alpha Beta" (maybe there still are...) The beverage aisle had nothing but caffienated drinks and beer, but they had a great section of cleaning supplies.

Alpha doesn't equate to an inability to live a healthy lifestyle.

[Isolde]

I'm like you, shadowplay. I need the guy to take the lead dating wise, but I'm independent/like a little alone time, too.

 

Meh, I don't subscribe by the alpha/beta duality. I don't think any descriptor that relies upon polar opposites can be very accurate or useful. Since I'm neither a textbook "submissive girl" nor a textbook "career girl," why should I define men in black and white terms too?

[boxing123]

I am tired of all the "independent" talk, as it relates to dating.

 

I am independent. It is easy. If I have a girlfriend,I will never say "she is too clingy", or "not independent enough. No man who TRULY likes you will say these things.

 

I am not sure what type of a mix you are looking for in a man. But if he is interested, and your boyfriend, then I do not see why he would not listen to you,help you etc. Unless you are busy chasing men that have little interest in you.

[Isolde]

In real life, we have to accept that we aren't always as great as we'd like to be, and focus on just doing our best for the people who matter to us and who are prepared to return the "doing their best" favour, even if sometimes we fail to meet up to each others ideals and expectations.

 

This. People are imperfect by nature and need to be given some leeway to learn and grow within a relationship. Your problem in previous relationships wasn't so much that you were willing to give those guys a chance, as much as the fact that the guys weren't willing to compromise in a relationship.

 

SP, on loveshack it's easy to think of everything in abstract terms. In real life you'll find most people are in between, undescribable, unpeggable. At least that's my experience. Deal with the reality of what you find, taking each situation as it comes. Yes, people have basic personalities and preferences, but the real test of compatibility is how people interact together, and that's not something you can evaluate before the fact.