scarred Posted March 13, 2009 Posted March 13, 2009 I've posted a couple of threads here describing an affair my wife had a number of years ago when she was involved in a state-wide organization. The relationship developed over about a year, with her being physically with this other person 4 times at 4 different conferences. Again, this happened a long time ago - over 10 years ago. I can't get my arms around the following and am wonderig from the perspective of another WS what this means. When my wife first revealed all this to me she indicated the following: 1. She never told him she loved him (I spoke to him and he confirmed), but she did say she was infatuated with him 2. After the last physical meeting, she still had to call him once when she was in the town where he lived (and I do know they didn't get together) because she says there were still feelings there 3. At a 5th conference after the last physical part of the affair she said they went for a ride where they confirmed that this needed to end - she says they both agreed - not him (he was married also) saying it and her just going along 4. They had no contact after that 5th conference (again, please take my word for it at this point) and its now 14 years later 5. She now says she felt used by him 6. She now says he was a flake and the thought of him repulses her 7. She says she never thought of divorcing me back then for this guy, but she was "confused" about her feelings - and obviously had some level of feelings for this guy. My wife has not been with a lot of men - intercourse only with 3 including me, a former husband, and a one-time thing with a guy in college - so I'm pretty sure she had strong feelings for this guy to get to the point of passionate kissing. In these kind of situations, I guess I'm wondering what type of feelings do get expressed which help to progress the affair along - what feeds it. I'm also now trying to figure out why if the feelings were so strong back then (and I realize the setting was kind of a fantasy world in hotels at conferences away from home), why does she express repulsion of him now? I plan to talk to her about it more because I do want to understand but am wondering what other WS might think if you've been through this situation - again this happened a long time ago and my wife has had a lot of time to process and think about what happened unlike some where the A just ended. Any thoughts would be appreciated.
Planofool Posted March 13, 2009 Posted March 13, 2009 6. She now says he was a flake and the thought of him repulses her I'm also now trying to figure out why if the feelings were so strong back then (and I realize the setting was kind of a fantasy world in hotels at conferences away from home), why does she express repulsion of him now? My wife has done the same thing. Up until last year she would talk to this x boyfriend and they were friends. She had told me they only dated in the past. Once I found out they had more of a relationship then she had led me to believe, (they had been lovers and had actually been the demise of her 1st marriage), he is now pond scum and she doesn't want to talk about him or to him or be around him. I too would like to understand this fasinating change of heart
Athena Posted March 13, 2009 Posted March 13, 2009 My wife has done the same thing. (...) he is now pond scum and she doesn't want to talk about him or to him or be around him. I too would like to understand this fasinating change of heart I would think it is her way of helping her change her attitude and feelings towards him... she doesn't want to feel in love with him so she selectively begins to view all the negative traits he has, so she can fall out of love with him... I guess that's how many WS (wandering Spouses --> for tryn2recoop) may become infatuated, or 'in love' with OM in the first place -- they selectively look at all the positive traits OM has, and begin to swoon and fantasize. When they look at cold reality, they don't feel so amorous and wonderful.
ezg3 Posted March 13, 2009 Posted March 13, 2009 what matters is, she didnt leave, she stayed and now you have had the opportunity to reconcile honestly with her. address why she cheated what in her made her do it, what in the relationship made her do it. and dont worry about why she is repulsed by him now. its a lot better than her "longing or pining" for what could have been. those are the two paths we WS can go when ending something on the side. turn the longing into repulsion or you will have those sad moments everyday...those what could have been thoughts every day. which is painful and unfair to you.
Author scarred Posted March 13, 2009 Author Posted March 13, 2009 ezg3 - thanks for your feedback. Its been a long time ago for me. But what I'm hearing you say is that her feelings were strong enough for him that to combat the feelings of longing, she turns it around and makes it a repulsion so she won't have to deal with the longing feelings. Athena - you seem to say the same thing although slightly differently. Is this a unique characteristic with women in that they idealize the affair partner? (my wife only saw this guy at conferences and this was 14 or 15 years ago so there really wasn't email and my wife didn't have a cell phone. They both have said there wasn't a great deal of contact outside of the conferences - a few letters and an occasional phone call at work which primarily dealt with conference activities). And then to deal with getting rid of the idealization they tear it apart by focusing on the reality of the situation. Or could it be that they are repulsed with themselves and by what they did and that extends over to the affair partner by association?
Bryanp Posted March 14, 2009 Posted March 14, 2009 I am curious but if the roles had been reversed do you honestly think she would be so accepting as you have been? My guess as to why she claims she is repulsed by him now is that he threw her under the bus. When she told him it needed to end - she expected him to fight to the end to keep her which he did not so she realizes she was just a piece of ass to him. I find it disturbing that while she was having sex with him behind your back and putting your health at risk for STD's, she said she never thought of divorce. What does that tell you? She had no problem of using you as a safety net, humiliating and disrespecting you has a husband, partner and man while screwing another man. She was making a mockery of your marriage and your relationship. I am sorry but some of her statements are just so self-serving. Clearly she also thought that she could screw another man behind your back and you would stay in the marriage anyway. I am sorry but it showed she had no respect for you whatsoever and was playing you for a fool. I am sorry if this is harsh but it is my take on it. I wish you luck.
Spark1111 Posted March 14, 2009 Posted March 14, 2009 ezg3 - thanks for your feedback. Its been a long time ago for me. But what I'm hearing you say is that her feelings were strong enough for him that to combat the feelings of longing, she turns it around and makes it a repulsion so she won't have to deal with the longing feelings. Athena - you seem to say the same thing although slightly differently. Is this a unique characteristic with women in that they idealize the affair partner? (my wife only saw this guy at conferences and this was 14 or 15 years ago so there really wasn't email and my wife didn't have a cell phone. They both have said there wasn't a great deal of contact outside of the conferences - a few letters and an occasional phone call at work which primarily dealt with conference activities). And then to deal with getting rid of the idealization they tear it apart by focusing on the reality of the situation. Or could it be that they are repulsed with themselves and by what they did and that extends over to the affair partner by association? Hi scarred. My WS's A began as mutual attraction, but was fueled by her telling him how wonderful he was at a time he did not feel wonderful at all. She admired him, hook, line and sinker, and he fell big time. In a long term relationship, we often assume we do not have to keep bolstering our spouse's ego, but maybe we do. She did. In retrospect, he now feels a little duped by it all, in addition to pain, guilt, remorse. He stopped seeing what he had, and went to her ego-stroking like a narcotic. Affairs are a fantasy because everyone is on their best behavior, putting their best self forth, like the early dating years. When the fog lifts from the fanatasy world, the WS can long for the return of that heady "high" feeling the affair gave them and hence, miss the Affair partner, of feel contemptuous of themselves or the AP because they ALLOWED themselves to choose this slippery slope. Bottom line: She should maybe try IC to discover where her internal feelings needing the ego-boost an affair provides, came from. MC also helps the both of you during this trying time.
Author scarred Posted March 14, 2009 Author Posted March 14, 2009 Bryanp - sorry, you don't have the details. The affair didn't culminate in sex. It ended with the two married affair partners at the last conference getting to the point where they had to decide whether they were going to have sex - ie go beyond kissing. They both decided they had let this go too far and that they couldn't take it to the next step. My wife admits there was a side of her which wanted to have sex and the other man has said as much as well - but there was a realization that if they crossed that line.... There was one final conference a few months later where they went for a drive and confirmed they had made the right decision. A month after that last meeting my wife left employment of the organization and never saw this guy again - he lives several hundred miles away. Spark1111 - I know from talking to the other man that he pursued her pretty aggressively - she at first rebuffed him but then probably greatly enjoyed being pursued and gave in. There was obviously physical attraction and a "connection" my wife admits which you don't find with just every attractive person. My wife was also pregnant during most of this with our second child. The last conference where they decided they couldn't go further physically was about a month after giving birth to our child (and yes I know its mine). None of this excuses her behavior, but my wife has always had fairly low self-esteem and that combined with hormonal changes from being pregnant and my guess is the attraction made her feel good about herself and it was a fantasy world life as you point out. Maybe she felt duped as well as after the "fog" lifted and now sees it for what it was. Again, it doesn't really matter now as it happened a long time ago and we've decided to move forward. I was just curious if other WS's could opine from their experience. Thanks for your comments.
Bryanp Posted March 14, 2009 Posted March 14, 2009 Thanks for clearing that up. It sounded like a close call but it turned out all right. I wish you luck.
Author scarred Posted March 19, 2009 Author Posted March 19, 2009 Folks - I'm having a real problem with letting go of some things. For those of you who have read some of my previous threads, you know that my wife's affair was a long time ago - 1994 - lasted about 15 months over the course of several state wide conferences she attended. The physical side got intimate but never lead to sex (again, for anyone who wants to bash, I'm 100% sure there was no sex). It got to the point of kissing at the 2nd conference and from there it was kissing on a bed and make out sessions. It ended when the passion lead naturally to the next step - sex - and they decided they couldn't take that step - both were married. There was some withdrawal obviously as at the next conference they had to see each other again and went for a ride and affirmed they wanted to stay with their spouses and not go further - along with a phone call a couple of months later from the next conference (he called our house as she had left employment of that firm) and they both affirmed they missed each other. No contact after that. I just found out about this 2 months ago through revisiting with her some things which for some reason I couldn't get to go away. We have been through about 7 counseling sessions together. While its been a long time ago and for the most part I can deal with it, I am obsessing about a few things. First, the first time they would have been together kissing was right after my wife got pregnant with our 2nd child. The subsequent sessions were all while she was pregnant, including one where she was 7 months pregnant and they were making out on a bed. Yes, I know the baby is mine and they didn't have sex (no I can't possibly know for 100% certainty but trust me, I know). The images of this guy and my wife making out while she was pregnant with my child haunt me. Every time I look at a picture of her pregnant or see a picture of my new born son, it takes me back to that time period. Second, I've tried to talk to my wife about what was going through her head at that time - ie we were obviously having sex because we were trying to get pregnant although I'll have to admit it trailed off a bit after she started showing but I can clearly remember we continued to have sex with some frequency up until she was probably 6 months pregnant. Unfortunately, my wife is pretty emotional and when I try to talk about some of this stuff, she says she was "screwed up" and a bad person - ie she degrades herself. Instead of being able to have a rationale conversation because I'm simply trying to understand what happened, she gets very emotional. Our counselor indicates its because she processed this a long time ago and has probably felt terrible about it for a long time - now when I want to discuss "details" or her thought process (or lack thereof) from back then its forcing her to go back to a very painful period in her life. Finally, it is really bugging me that my wife would have that strong of an emotional connection with someone else that despite her pregnancy she would "need" to be with this guy at each conference. From reading the threads here I am starting to understand the "fog" the WS is experiencing in these types of affairs - some have described it as lack of any rational thought. But, it still haunts me that my wife would be emotionally and physically intimate (to a point) with another man while she was pregnant. There is a side of me that wants to know what they talked about, what fueled the affair, what feelings were shared (my wife has said she didn't tell him she loved him and I spoke to him and he confirmed - she also indicated she never thought of divorcing me, although if the feelings for someone are so strong that a pregnancy doesn't bring you back to reality, I'm not sure I believe her). I know its been a long time ago but it really bugs me. My wife's inability to hardly discuss it leaves me in my own fog.
Heather1 Posted March 20, 2009 Posted March 20, 2009 What's making you bring this up now? You both did all the right things at the time. Here's the deal for me. OMM pursued me & it put me in an altered state. All the logic was gone, and all the endorphins were flowing & he could do no wrong. There's just no self control or logic w/ this, it's a chain of events (marriage problems, some one giving you attention, not being able to spend "real" time with this person, only "fantasy" time) and you can't see a fault. Then once the line's crossed, reality sets in & it's then which painful decision do you make? Your wife chose the best of the least painful options by telling you. So now, over the years, she's seen the guy & the situation for what it really was & is remorseful. Find out what the "real" problem is with you two right now. It seems as if your re-hashing "her" problem and I'm sure she just hates that she did it & wants to forget about it. It's a long time ago & she has no contact with the guy. She probably doesn't even remember much of what lead her to it and is just re-living it through you thinking "yuck!"
Author scarred Posted March 20, 2009 Author Posted March 20, 2009 Thanks Heather1. While this happened a long time ago, I just found out a couple of months ago and its just taking me a while to get adjust to the fact that a couple of years after we got married and while my wife was pregnant, she was "intimate" with another man - kissing, some type of infatuation, no rational thought. I know he pursued her before she started showing but kept it up until after she had the baby at which point I get the sense he decided he had gotten what he wanted - ie the ego stroke that he could get some other woman "needing him". And my wife went right along with it. I also know she now feels used, stupid, and terrible about her actions back then - the "yuck" you mention below. Everything I've read about emotional affairs (while this one included kissing, the stronger component was clearly an emotional connection) is that at some point there becomes a sharing of feelings which fuels it. Having never been in situation personally, I'm wondering what that means - is it a verbal acknowledgement that you are physically attracted to the other person, that you want to be with them, etc. I guess I'm wondering what fuels these things and continues to make them thrive - the excitement of the secrecy, the feelings that someone else is really into you even though they don't get to see the real you and you don't get to see the real them, the expression of feelings, the dopamine rush? Any ideas?
pkn06002 Posted March 20, 2009 Posted March 20, 2009 Look it is not that hard it is very much like first love when you were a teenager. That is what the feelings in an affair feel like. You are looking for answers where there are none. Simple fact your wife stayed, she did not sleep with the guy, this happened 10+ years ago. Work on what your problems are now or guess what she knows how to have an affair. If you push and push on something this old you will alienate her and she can/will stray again.
2sure Posted March 20, 2009 Posted March 20, 2009 Scarred - you I like you right? Because you sound like an intelligent and articulate man, I want to be very honest with you in the hopes of giving you further perspective. You sound obsessive. Previously, you posted that you also had emotional relationships outside of the marriage that were not appropriate. What is it about your wife's that was different? Is is because they kissed and you did not? You seem to be looking for answers to questions that just arent black and white and also - look to your own past experience with EA. Scarred - I have to keep telling myself that your day of discovery is very recent even though the event happened so many years ago. You keep focusing on the not so much physical part of the affair, and adding what ifs to it. Recently on another thread, in talking about getting details of WS affairs - it was agreed by several (myself included) that getting details is an endless process. The more you get, the more questions you have. Endless. Now, I understand that the need for details stems from a need to feel some control or get an understanding. The tricky part is that the more details we get - the easier it is for us to create a visual image in our mind. Some BS have been confronted with ACTUAL visuals of their spouses Affair - and it seems that detail is one impossible to recover from . Why ask for it? You dont want or need that image in your head if recovery is what you ultimately wish for. Scarred - at some point after my H's infidelity...I had to take responsiblility not just for my own ACTIONS in the process of recovery..but for my own feelings and thoughts. The process of forgiveness requires some dicipline. Obsessing has to be curbed to reflection and thought. For yourself and then your marriage. This is not denial. I know it has not been long for you - I just felt the need to post this.
Author scarred Posted March 20, 2009 Author Posted March 20, 2009 I am not pushing her and our relationship is going very well. These boards are an outlet for me so I don't push her. Although I'll say this - life is screwed up. The BS doesn't have the affair, but if they really want to understand what happened, they alienate the WS who got involved with someone else. But, I get it - we need to work on our relationship going forward so neither of us are as prone to step outside the relationship. Oh, and yes, I am obsessive - obviously.
2sure Posted March 20, 2009 Posted March 20, 2009 lol - I did the obsessive thing too. I just want to warn you to not get so many details, or create so many details - that you add visual imagery to your pain.
Author scarred Posted March 20, 2009 Author Posted March 20, 2009 You know, I'm not too worried about pain of the physical side from additional information. My wife has already told me the details including how much saliva was exchanged.... I'm much more interested in how the mind works in these situations and what continues to fuel it. As a man, I'm also wondering what kind of sicko gets satisfaction from laying on a bed kissing a 7 month pregnant woman when the baby isn't his and he has a beautiful wife at home (I've seen his wife and she's definitely revenge affair material... just kidding, but she is hot). I guess I'm one of those types of people that likes to dig into something and break it down to its basic elements - the whys, hows, etc. But as one poster indicated, I'm probably trying to understand something and in a rational manner for which there are no rational answers. Maybe I should have been a psychologist. Oh, and by the way, yes I had an EA but it was certainly mild - ie no sharing of feelings and quickly faded. Most of my affairs have been with work - I have been a workaholic most of my career - that is now changing as part of our reconnection.
imagine Posted March 20, 2009 Posted March 20, 2009 Your reactions are quite normal. I wondered when they would show. Your wife had a PA if saliva was exchanged. Your marriage had been tainted by this event. It is towards your wife's credit that she revealed it. As a spouse it is necessary to work out the pitfalls of this event. You and your wife needs to move on with complete transparency. This means the events before and during your marriage. Share you EA's with her. All of us are potentially vulnerable to an attack on our marriage. Share everything. This reduces the chance of this defect to develop. This Policy Of Joint Agreement is mentioned in marriagebuilders.com articles. By the way, these thoughts you are having may last on average - 2 years from now.
Author scarred Posted March 20, 2009 Author Posted March 20, 2009 Yes it was a physical, non-sex affair - they were kissing several times - but it started as some type of emotional connection/fantasy etc. and gosh since they were attractive I guess they just had to kiss each other. No, I'm not an engineer but could have been - but very analytical. Thanks for reminding me these thoughts will linger with me for a couple of years. Oh the joy!! Ironically, and I've told my wife this, during the period when this was going on, I had two different women from work, both very attractive, who I could have had a physical affair with - one came right out and asked me at a party to go to bed with her. At the time, as a thinker, I thought about it and decided in a rational way that I just can't do that because I'm married and I would feel terrible about it afterwards. If I'd only had no morals or could have just gotten in that "affair fog" thing....
Dexter Morgan Posted March 20, 2009 Posted March 20, 2009 Work on what your problems are now or guess what she knows how to have an affair. If you push and push on something this old you will alienate her and she can/will stray again. Ya, guess what...she knows how to have an affair. WTF? better listen to this scarred, because if you don't submit to the emotional extortion of a cheater and act how she wants you to act, just like pkn said, she knows how to have an affair. Better listen. pkn is a WS that knows how to justify an affair.
Dexter Morgan Posted March 20, 2009 Posted March 20, 2009 But, I get it - we need to work on our relationship going forward so neither of us are as prone to step outside the relationship. Oh, and yes, I am obsessive - obviously. Yes, work on the relationship, absolutely. But not because of the f'ed up reason that pkn would have you thinking. Of course you are obsessive. She betrayed you. there is nothing wrong with the way you are feeling. It hurts, no matter how long ago it happened. And I hate to break this to you.....you WILL think about what she did one in a blue moon from now until the day you die. And it will bring a little pain. Honestly, I might think about what my X did here and there, but no pain...because she is no longer significant to me. but if you stay with her, then yes, work on the relationship. But your wife has ALOT of amends to make to you and has alot of proving to you that it will NEVER happen again. Don't think you have to be perfect and bend over backwards until your back breaks to please her JUST to keep her from cheating like some might suggest. If that is the kind of entitlement your wife expects, then she isn't worth it. But do work on your marriage.
pkn06002 Posted March 20, 2009 Posted March 20, 2009 Ya, guess what...she knows how to have an affair. WTF? better listen to this scarred, because if you don't submit to the emotional extortion of a cheater and act how she wants you to act, just like pkn said, she knows how to have an affair. Better listen. pkn is a WS that knows how to justify an affair. Dexter you are just trying to pick a fight. Now where have I ever justified an affair?? Where have I said he should give into the extortion of the affair? I matter of fact have agreed with you on this point. But like it or not she knows how to have one and it is not all that much of a leap to do it again if you are not happy. It is a valid concern if he wants to continue harping on something that is 10+ years old. Maybe you would be happier if he just followed you advice and dumped her the first time. That is a nice clean black/white way of looking at the world.
Dexter Morgan Posted March 20, 2009 Posted March 20, 2009 Ironically, and I've told my wife this, during the period when this was going on, I had two different women from work, both very attractive, who I could have had a physical affair with - one came right out and asked me at a party to go to bed with her. At the time, as a thinker, I thought about it and decided in a rational way that I just can't do that because I'm married and I would feel terrible about it afterwards. If I'd only had no morals or could have just gotten in that "affair fog" thing.... You are definitely the "better half".
Dexter Morgan Posted March 20, 2009 Posted March 20, 2009 Maybe you would be happier if he just followed you advice and dumped her the first time. I always say there is no good reason to stay with a cheater. But since he wouldn't want that, I'd be happy with him being able to work on the marriage without the fear of her cheating again and that he has to break his back to avert it.
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