bentnotbroken Posted March 13, 2009 Posted March 13, 2009 David has a problem. It's called adultery. Adultery is a moral problem, and the solution to this is to exercise discipline both personally and professionally in maintaining his boundaries, and focusing his affection on his wife where it belongs. We are all capable of mastering that sort of discipline--otherwise society would be in a state of anarchy. Sometimes counseling can be effective in driving that point home, as well as understanding factors which led to the problem in the first place. Since KismetGirl is Jewish, she should be familiar with the commandment, "Thou shalt not commit adultery" from the Old Testament. In fact, it is entirely appropriate to push this kind of morality on others. That's a major part of this Forum. My suggestion to seek Christian counseling relates to the fact that only God through Christ can renew your heart, and a renewed heart is the only permanent solution to sin. David can take or leave this last piece of advice. Yes only the God in can renew an unclean heart, therefore no need for a Christian counselor isn't necessary. We all(Christian and non Christian alike)no the commandment against adultery. Even if you don't believe and only prescribe to doing unto others...adultery is a no-no. A non Christian counselor can tell him that just as well as Christian counselor can.
jwi71 Posted March 13, 2009 Posted March 13, 2009 Yes it elevates the risk if you are caught. And even if you are NOT caught. Because it then becomes a possibility that the WS leaves the M for the OW, pledges of undying love and all. Which means divorce. Which means you are a part time parent and someone else is raising your kids. So cheating did nothing to minimize those consequences and in my view, made them MORE probable, caught or not. The best solution is resolution through talking but as we see from the OP's post that has gone no where.100% agree. Did you catch that OP? See what a BS will NEVER understand is the think that a WS has that leads down the path. You can become so frustrated that you really no longer think about the effects on your kids or eventual outcomes, you just know your current pain and want a release.Then I'm not sure you can claim that cheating is a solution. It sounds, per the above, that its an escape. One whose consequences do not matter. And those consequences might include becoming a part time father and watching another raise your kids. I'm not following you...
Author David231 Posted March 13, 2009 Author Posted March 13, 2009 Thank you all for your responses. I can understand why I have done what I've done, the issue I am dealing with is am I now one of "those guys" who just looks for his next opportunity to have a fling because his wife has no sex drive. Or will these feelings subside....because they seem to be getting stronger. Yes, I have a son who I love more than anything. He also sees the issues between his parents and I hate for him to see that. Thank you for letting me vent here in the forum. I appreciate the well thought out responses instead of just attacks from victims. I know what I have done is wrong and can't change that but it's what I do from here on out that I can control, that's why I am so confused.
jwi71 Posted March 13, 2009 Posted March 13, 2009 OP, Maybe I missed it...but have you two started counseling? It might be beneficial to you...
KismetGirl Posted March 13, 2009 Posted March 13, 2009 I don't agree with priest molesting because it isn't natural to not have sex. Some molesters are married and getting all they can handle. At least the one living down the street from me did. That is a perversion that really does need a psychiatric eval as well as imprisonment for a little street justice. I have no patience for those who hurt kids. Kis, we all want intimacy and love from our spouses. We all don't' cheat. He has an excuse, not a reason. I think they need counseling,but it seems by his post he has decided that he has missed something by being faithful and he wants to explore. I would suggest telling his wife and then leaving the marriage. As so many OW have stated, sex isn't the reason men(or women) cheat. I believe it really is a lack of coping skills and character. Especially repeat cheaters. Her not having sex with him is an issue, for some a big issue, but that isn't a reason to destroy some one's world. And intimacy doesn't necessarily mean sex. I know you are hurting, and I can see you are entering the anger phase. Get it out, then decide which way you are going. See, I dont agree with telling her and just getting out of the marriage. Unlike many other cases where I don't think the husband really WANTS to be with his wife, and is staying for whatever other reasons (kids, finances, etc), I think in this case the OP WANTS to be with his wife, but her lack of interest in him as a romantic partner is what is hurting him. I am in no way condoning cheating as a remedy for this, mind you, just that I understand where he is coming from, and that people have a bad tendency to underestimate the importance of sex in a relationship. They look at someone who complains about lack of sex in their marriage as a nitpicker, or some unappreciative of their marriage, when in reality, for most people, especially for most men, sex is an integral part of being truly happy in a relationship because it IS a means of expression , and emotion, and of feeling close to someone and feeling WANTED. If MY spouse only wanted sex from me even no more than once a month I would feel horribly rejected, so I can only imagine how horrid it must be for someone to only be affectionate to you four times a year! He should get into marriage counseling with her, and he should definitely address this problem head on with her. Don't skirt the issue, just be up front and express how much he loves her but that it pains him to feel like he is nothing more than a sperm donor for the production of children, and that otherwise he is just her "friend". he doesn't want a friend, he wants a wife! He wants a lover! And what is wrong with that? I sense that this is also stemming from a lack of communication, so that would be two areas , integrated, that they need to work on. And if after making a real effort to fix this....well, as I said....he can go on being a roomate, and continue being unhappy, and probably be tempted to cheat again when he remembers the wonderful feeling of being wanted by someone, or he can get a divorce, remain amicable with his wife, and let's be honest....if she refuses to be intimate with him, I don't see how a divorce would make their relationship much different than it is now, except they won't be living together anymore. And that isn't the worst thing in the world. People have a right to be happy, and if his kids don't notice the lack of affection between their parents now, they sure as hell will soon, and they will grow up thinking that a marriage is supposed to be robotic, and empty, and devoid of any passion. And that is not how it should be, in my personal opinion. But i guess everyone is different.
pkn06002 Posted March 13, 2009 Posted March 13, 2009 Then I'm not sure you can claim that cheating is a solution. It sounds, per the above, that its an escape. One whose consequences do not matter. And those consequences might include becoming a part time father and watching another raise your kids. I'm not following you... Have another thought to add. I will content that a lot (if not most) WS's are passive aggressive types. We do not always want to make the decisions so cheating even though it may lead to a divorce, would not be OUR decision. The situation is manipulated to the point where we get what we want without having to really make the decision. Remember this thinking is all out of frustration and emotional pain where we are not thinking all that clearly. So we look for an escape damn the outcome, we are hurt and want a release. Like BS are told to wait 6 months before making a decision WS really should "think" about getting into an affair. A lot of WS (I would imagine) really want away from their spouses (divorce or separation) but for reasons OTHER than Love they stay. It is all just a big freaking mess that really has no easy solution. Divorce is not easy, cheating is not easy, talking is not easy. But talking is the best of the lot and can actually result in resolution or at least an agreement where everyone is OK.
KismetGirl Posted March 13, 2009 Posted March 13, 2009 KismetGirl, you are amazing. Tears filled my eyes with your response. I have talked with my W about the lack of intamacy for the past 6-7 years and she sees my concerns as selfish. I do want someone who craves being with me as much as I do them. Someone who appreciates me rather than just counts on me being there. Living without passion oi like eating lettuce all your life and then when you taste a 5 course meals worth of it from a passionate person it's almos impossible to go back to the nonpassion. I Love my family, but am afraid I will spend the rest of my life looking for what I know I can have, a passionate loving intamate relationship. And yes I am a Christian and that aspect of this is burning my soul. Aw, thanks. Curious, why do you think your wife doesn't want to have sex? Dreamlover brings up a good point....is it that there is something else bothering her (eg- she is bothered by something you are doing) , or is she just uninterested in intimacy? Because I think that's something you'd need to clear up with her. You could try to approach it from another angle, instead of the "me" angle: ask her if there is anything YOU can do to make her feel closer to you, or if she feels she is missing anything in the marriage. When you ask her "are you happy in this relationship" , what does she say? If she tries to talk about being happy with her family situation, say that isnt what you meant. Love with yoru family situation is far different than happiness in your personal relationship between husband and wife. Has she always been this way, since you got together, or has intimacy fizzled over time? I am in an affair with a married man, and from nearly day one he seems to have expressed that there is no 'spark" between him and his wife. She'll have sex with him on occasion if he asks, but she is grossly uninterested in it and if he never asked, she'd never initiate. Obviously, his decision to pursue an affair with me for four years is indication of his unhappiness, but I can't make him see that or change his life. You, however, CAN do something about this, but you need to address it. Don't be like my MM. He, sadly, is not really in love with his wife. You seem like you are, so you need to try to make it work, but you can only do so much if the other person is unwilling to compromise. If she continues to express that she is perfectly happy with everything else, and that you are simply selfish for wanting more intimacy with her, Im afraid that the selfish one in this situation is not just you. As I said...people seem to look at the partner who says "im not getting laid enough" as the bad guy, when in reality, any relationship counselor worth their degree will tell you that when a couple comes to them for help, one of the first questions they ask is "how often do you have sex". Why? Because it is generally a very good indicator of other problems in the marriage- be it a lack of communication, anger over old problems that were left unsettled, whatever it is. Which is probably why having a counselor to sort of "mediate" these types of conversations might be helpful, but be sure you find someone who specializes in marriage counseling and not just regular psychotherapy. If you don't like the first person you find, find another one. Just because someone has a degree doesnt mean they'll be the write therapist for you. I really do sympathize with you, and again, while I dont think an affair is the proper answer, I do understand why you did it, and I genuinely believe it was not the answer you wanted to find for yourself. It is irrelevant whether you are Christian or not...you are only human, just as I am and anyone else on this board. You can't change what you've done, only what you do about the future, and you need to address it immediately, before any more time is wasted.
Author David231 Posted March 13, 2009 Author Posted March 13, 2009 She went to counseling twice and discussed her lack of intamacy with the counselor. She tried a few things that felt way too forced and when she didn't get the response she was looking for said "then I don't even know why I try" and gave up. I went once and the counselor said there is plenty of other women who would be a much better match for me but since I have a child and a long relationship I should try to make it work. Sinch the affair I have found a sense of confidence I never had before. I am starting to think I am worth it. I am such a planner though and fear taking the steps down the path of divorce will not lead to a happy life later. I know I won't be alone, but it is a thought that scares the hell out of me.
JetCityWoman Posted March 13, 2009 Posted March 13, 2009 My question too is was she always this closed off to sex? She could also be suffering from some form of depression. She may have low self esteem or not happy with her body after having a baby. Was she ever rapped or molested as a kid? If you love her talk to her and get some professional help. (MD, Therapist etc...)
KismetGirl Posted March 13, 2009 Posted March 13, 2009 This is not all that uncommon, apparently, the sexless marriage. I went through it, as well and it is horrible. There can be many reasons for it, physical, or resentment, or being continually rejected or ridiculed so as to kill desire. But, the reality is that there are options, honorable options, other than cheating. I am constantly amazed, with the availability of divorce, why folks choose such a damaging course as cheating. As David says, it not only hurts the BS incredibly, but it eats folks with a conscience up. Why is it that folks fear divorce so much in these situations? It seems short sighted to leave a legacy of cheating rather than to go through the pain of divorce. Because when it comes to divorce, many people become the proverbial child about to receive a shot at the doctor's office.....it looks and sounds like it is going to be horribly painful, and they run around the office crying and screaming and trying to avoid it, even though it will keep them from getting sick, because of the FEAR of how painful it will be....even though in the end, it really isn't nearly as bad as they thought , and not nearly as horrible as compared to how sick they'd get if they didn't take that shot.... get the analogy? I love analogies. Anyway, this one pretty much sums up why people dont run to the divorce option. Cause they are scared. Fear of change can be immense....
KismetGirl Posted March 13, 2009 Posted March 13, 2009 Doesn't cheating potentially lead to the same results? In fact, isn't cheating elevating the risk? Now your partner files for D, you become a part-time parent and some-else raises your kids because you cheated. Not following your logic here. yeah...."potentially" being the key word here. most people who cheat do not intend to get caught. And many never do.
KismetGirl Posted March 13, 2009 Posted March 13, 2009 Have you ever thought about you are not the best husband to your wife. Maybe thats why she doesn't want to be intimate with you. People all ways blame the other person. But do you communicate with her. When is the last time you did something special for her with out expecting sex after. All I hear are lame excuses. Grow up and stop trying to blame it on her and a mid life crisis. Love your wife maybe shes hurting about something and need all of you. Think about that, and act on that. Think and love with your heart not other parts. And how in the world were you in love after 3 months you need to get some help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! recuperate. Not recooperate. Anyway....he came asking for advice on how to fix things. Perhaps sex is not important to you, and that is well and dandy for you, but it is important to most other people, the OP included, and he was already given advice indicating he should communicate with his wife about the causes for her. Telling him to be happy with something he is not happy with, is most certainly not an answer to his problems. Seriously, who decided that insulting people is relevant or proper advice?
65tr6 Posted March 13, 2009 Posted March 13, 2009 A recent trip out of town led me to look for the comfort of another woman. We did not have sex but pretty much everything just short of it. I know this is BAD, I want to be a loving caring committed man but there is a part of me that want's to see what the world has to offer and can't keep my head burried in the sand any longer. Is this a mid life crisis or something worse. Please tell me I'm not the only one. David, I dont think you true problem is having sex only 3 or 4 times a year with your wife. It is much deeper than that. You have a marriage that is in serious trouble. You need to wake up and tackle it head on..along with your wife. You are complaining about lack of sex....did you ever wonder what your wife's complaints could be about ? Did you ask her what is missing in the relationship from her standpoint ? Seriously. Trust me there is no such thing as midlife crisis. It is what you make or dont make out of life that can lead to serious crisis. First starters, you need to come out clean with your wife about your affairs (such a nice word for such a destructive behavior, huh ?). To me it seems like there is not much communication going on between you two about the problems in your marriage. Did you ever sat her down and told her exactly how you feel about where you marriage is going with your wife ? Did you ask her what her needs are and how good a job you are doing in meeting those ? Do you seriously think you gave your marriage best shot before you called it quits (meaning had the affair) ? My guess is you didnt but I let you be the judge on that. Your wife is probably TOTALLY disconnected from you emotionally which is so important for most women. They need that connection before they can connect with you physically. That is why it is so important to meet her ENs. Let me ask you this. What do you want in life ? A wife who is sexually responsive and a happy family make you happy ? You say you want to make your relationship work, then do the right thing. Be truthful to your wife, be honest, tell her about the affair, tell her that you want to work on the relationship. Many here will advice you to see a MC. I disagree. In the beginning you MUST come out clean with your wife. No third party involved. Look her in the eye when you talk to her. Tell her what you want from your marraige and ask her the same thing. Communicate, start meeting each others needs - assuming that she wants to stay with you after what you have you done. If things recover then I would bring in the MC. But you have lot of work to do before you can get there.
RecordProducer Posted March 13, 2009 Posted March 13, 2009 Why settle for affairs when you can divorce and meet the right woman for you? You didn't mention any other factros such as children or the financial aspect. It seems like you're in your 20's or early 30's. You're still very young. Do you love your wife? I don't think two peole with mismatched libidos could have a harmonious marriage. One will always feel straved (and ths angry, bitter, resentful and frustrated) and the other one will feel inadequate, insecure, threatened, and fearful. Only if one person decides to completely give in and pretend that everything is OK can the marriage seem in concord from outside. This is what you're doing: curing your emotional/sexual starvation on the side while your wife is happy that you're not bothering her with sex. But when she finds out about ytour affairs, you will be the bad guy. In my marriage (and many others) it was the opposite situation: I wasn't getting any physical pleasure. I could never go back to that place.
jwi71 Posted March 13, 2009 Posted March 13, 2009 She went to counseling twice and discussed her lack of intamacy with the counselor. She tried a few things that felt way too forced and when she didn't get the response she was looking for said "then I don't even know why I try" and gave up. I went once and the counselor said there is plenty of other women who would be a much better match for me but since I have a child and a long relationship I should try to make it work. Sinch the affair I have found a sense of confidence I never had before. I am starting to think I am worth it. I am such a planner though and fear taking the steps down the path of divorce will not lead to a happy life later. I know I won't be alone, but it is a thought that scares the hell out of me. Your M will NOT improve without MC. It won't. One person working on a M cannot save it...it takes 100% open honest commitment by both. And a trained professional unbiased view with decades of experience WILL help. And your W isn't there. I suspect, per an earlier post, that your W has FAR deeper issues. And YOU can't fix them. Only she can do that and to be honest, it doesn't sound like she is ready to even acknowledge them. And YOU have issues too. Are you seeing an IC for yourself? So you have a choice. Stay in this or leave. Its that simple. I think we can all agree that if there are NO changes then the M doesn't get any better. Which simply means you will cheat again. And NOTHING good comes of that. So choose. Fight (and its a helluva fight) for HER or walk for YOU. For now, ignore the child. What do YOU want? Do YOU want to fight for her, the M and your memories? Or walk. Set you and her free (of the M) and find a new life with a woman who does meet your needs? Your child will be fine provided you and your W always place his (her?) needs over your own.
Untouchable_Fire Posted March 13, 2009 Posted March 13, 2009 She went to counseling twice and discussed her lack of intamacy with the counselor. She tried a few things that felt way too forced and when she didn't get the response she was looking for said "then I don't even know why I try" and gave up. I went once and the counselor said there is plenty of other women who would be a much better match for me but since I have a child and a long relationship I should try to make it work. Sinch the affair I have found a sense of confidence I never had before. I am starting to think I am worth it. I am such a planner though and fear taking the steps down the path of divorce will not lead to a happy life later. I know I won't be alone, but it is a thought that scares the hell out of me. What kind of response was she looking for? What kind of excuses does she give you? Describe your relationship as well as you can from your wife's perspective. Answering questions like that will help you get an understanding of where her problem lies. It will help you get an idea of how to start fixing it. In my situation. My wife was simply unhappy with the amount of money I made. That got her mind going in the direction where she didn't feel like I was man enough. Then little things I did started to annoy her. Not being perfect at this or that. She was a control freak type at times. We only got intimate when I put a HUGE amount of effort into being romantic. I did that maybe twice a month. Towards the end I would do romantic stuff and not try for sex, because I wanted to make sure she knew I wasn't just trying to get some. Lots of affection, lots of cuddling... nothing in return. Bottom line. Some women are just broken in that department. There is nothing you can do to fix it or the marriage. However... You wont know for sure unless you try with everything your worth.
z1850 Posted March 13, 2009 Posted March 13, 2009 David, Maybe you should go on a marriage retreat. I found lots of links to these with a Google search; you might also ask your pastor.
Reggie Posted March 13, 2009 Posted March 13, 2009 PKN, ther were kids involved in my situation, yet I made the decision to divorce my WS(maybe that is not accurate, as she insisted I serve her. But, I am pretty sure it would have come to that, anyway). Studies show that children of divorce have some issues. But, those issues are greatly increased when the divorce is the result of infidelity rather than simply incompatibility. In the typical infidelity situation, with all the resentment generated by the betrayl, co-parentin in the future is more difficult. And, the cheating parent loses standing in the children's eyes to discipline. The kids can see the inate contradiction in having to abide by the rules imposed by someone who, him/herself, has not done the same. That is why I think children of divorce do better than children of divorce brought about by infidelity. Thye are angier and confused by the cheating parent's hypocrisy. The downside is the part time parent thing. The upside is that co-parenting is easier and the kids respect the parents more.
beachlover1969 Posted March 13, 2009 Posted March 13, 2009 You should have did all that BEFORE you married her, but if you love her and want to stay married, then talk to her and tell her how you feel and what you need in your marriage. If she loves you, she will come around on the sex part, but you both have to make each other feel loved, wanted and desired.
Reggie Posted March 14, 2009 Posted March 14, 2009 Have another thought to add. I will content that a lot (if not most) WS's are passive aggressive types. We do not always want to make the decisions so cheating even though it may lead to a divorce, would not be OUR decision. The situation is manipulated to the point where we get what we want without having to really make the decision. Remember this thinking is all out of frustration and emotional pain where we are not thinking all that clearly. So we look for an escape damn the outcome, we are hurt and want a release. Like BS are told to wait 6 months before making a decision WS really should "think" about getting into an affair. A lot of WS (I would imagine) really want away from their spouses (divorce or separation) but for reasons OTHER than Love they stay. It is all just a big freaking mess that really has no easy solution. Divorce is not easy, cheating is not easy, talking is not easy. But talking is the best of the lot and can actually result in resolution or at least an agreement where everyone is OK. Gotta agree. Most WS's I know are a passive agressive bunch with poor problem solving skills and a lack of integrity. PKN got this right. Good insight.
Reggie Posted March 14, 2009 Posted March 14, 2009 She went to counseling twice and discussed her lack of intamacy with the counselor. She tried a few things that felt way too forced and when she didn't get the response she was looking for said "then I don't even know why I try" and gave up. I went once and the counselor said there is plenty of other women who would be a much better match for me but since I have a child and a long relationship I should try to make it work. Sinch the affair I have found a sense of confidence I never had before. I am starting to think I am worth it. I am such a planner though and fear taking the steps down the path of divorce will not lead to a happy life later. I know I won't be alone, but it is a thought that scares the hell out of me. Sounds like she tried but encountered a lack of response and encouragement. Nice going on that.
Mr. Lucky Posted March 14, 2009 Posted March 14, 2009 Yes, I have a son who I love more than anything. He also sees the issues between his parents and I hate for him to see that. Seems like a toxic situation for everyone involved. I'd make one last attempt at MC, making sure that your wife knows what's at stake - and then I'd be gone. Life is too short, and the potential effect on your son too profound, to waste under these circumstances... Mr. Lucky
dreamlover Posted March 14, 2009 Posted March 14, 2009 Are you still blaming him? He did XYZ so I was forced to do ABC? C'mon... the sexless marriage 100% was your fault. The cheating was 100% your fault! Stop trying to bury your guilt with bullcrap. At some point you need to face the truth. Maybe your marriage is just not salvageable, and hasn't been for some time. peace out UF
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