Reggie Posted March 13, 2009 Posted March 13, 2009 Hi, This is my last post but I wanted to say to those who took the time to give me helpful, caring advice and support, THANK YOU. You are appreciated and wonderful and I hope you get all the support you give returned multiplied! Blessings and Light to you. I wish you the healing and love you so richly deserve. To those who use this forum to judge others and say unsupportive and unproductive things when they can't pretend to know enough about them to do so, I hope you also get the support you need to actually BE of support to others. I, frankly, don't want to be the recipient of your misplaced anger. I won't be reading or posting here anymore. I wish all of you the very best. Peace to you. You are welcome. I am glad you found my advice helpful. I hope you can get help and fix what is broken within you. Peace, blessings and petuly oil to you.
taylor Posted March 13, 2009 Posted March 13, 2009 I am really confused now-the posts seem to be widely varied depending, understandably, on whether one is a BS or whatever initials signify the one who strays (WS?). Do you (either) really think a EA is harder than a PA? Wouldn't it be much harder if it were both? Please, can any other WS/BS (especially of EA only) tell me of other websites/books they've found especially helpful? Thanks. I hate it when posters come on this forum and get so tired of defending themselves that they leave...probably in more pain than they had when they signed on. I understand the tough love..the cold hard truth...the dose of reality..the wake-up call. But this isn't what these posters are looking for when they first come here. They are looking to make some sense out of the confusion and they are looking for direction. This woman came here asking for websites and books to read to help her understand the affair and the fallout from it. The Infidelity forum invites posters "in an affair...to share..experiences and concerns." I doubt the intent is so that other posters can beat them over the head for their wrongdoing. Anyways, ChoosingLove, if you are still listening, IMO, the EA with PA is the worst. An EA is a strong attachment, the PA just makes that attachment stronger. And once that line is crossed, it's often a dealbreaker. A hard attachment to break free from (for the WS) and a hard one to forgive (for the BS). But both are bad and difficult to recover from. One point to add: Most EA's have a sexual element to them. Mine did...no physical contact...but a very strong sexual attraction and desire that was undeniable. "Just not friends" by Shirley Glass is a good book to read about emotional affairs.
Dexter Morgan Posted March 13, 2009 Posted March 13, 2009 Dexter, so now you're looking for a 'nice jagged stone' to throw at me? No...making a joke with that comment. However I do reserve the right based on that logic;) You have made only angry, mean posts to me and I have said NOTHING unkind or even directly to you. I'm sorry if the cold hard truth of it is seen as being mean and angry. I am telling you like it is because I represent what may, or more likely, is going through your husband's mind...aside from the physical abuse. Care to point out the angry and mean parts? Sure, the truth isn't pretty, but angry and mean? Some people see the truth like that I guess:confused: Is that really the point of this forum? Please stop now.
Dexter Morgan Posted March 13, 2009 Posted March 13, 2009 That's exactly the sense of entitlement that came across in your original post. I find it ironic that you say that you don't understand why your H feels the way he does yet you reject the input from those that have walked in his shoes. Exactly!!!!!! So if she wants to ignore how her H feels, then she just needs to file for divorce and set him free.
Reggie Posted March 13, 2009 Posted March 13, 2009 I thought the posts were polite and accurate. Tough to hear the truth, though.
65tr6 Posted March 13, 2009 Posted March 13, 2009 . And once that line is crossed, it's often a dealbreaker. that's not exactly encouraging for me taylor. lol. Dont worry, I dont go by statistics. Never did. Never will.
65tr6 Posted March 13, 2009 Posted March 13, 2009 I thought the posts were polite and accurate. Tough to hear the truth, though. ditto that.
Mr. Lucky Posted March 14, 2009 Posted March 14, 2009 I understand the tough love..the cold hard truth...the dose of reality..the wake-up call. But this isn't what these posters are looking for when they first come here. They are looking to make some sense out of the confusion and they are looking for direction. This woman came here asking for websites and books to read to help her understand the affair and the fallout from it. The Infidelity forum invites posters "in an affair...to share..experiences and concerns." I doubt the intent is so that other posters can beat them over the head for their wrongdoing. On every public forum I've ever posted on, you get posters that, based on their experiences and background, provide advice that runs the entire gamut of points of view. I always thought that in that diversity lies the value of the forum. Curbing any form of input because it's not what the OP wanted to hear seems counter-productive... Mr. Lucky
boldjack Posted March 14, 2009 Posted March 14, 2009 Not true TAylor, Most of the cheaters who come here want validation, they are looking for "enablers" and kindred spirits to commiserate with. If you look at some of the posts, they almost never change their minds and almost always resolve to do just what they intended to do in the first place.
tami-chan Posted March 15, 2009 Posted March 15, 2009 And, Tami, I missed the part about her husband stifling her creativity. Apparently, he has been physically abusive in the past and currently and that is absolutely wrong.That alone is reason enough to leave her husband(lone before she cheated, btw), that she stayed in marriage despite that, speaks volume of how willing she had been to make the marriage work. But, I did not see her allege that he had forced her to abandon her interests or stifle her in any way.I don't think her husband did, although he was not supportive of her. Here's the thing though, when they got together before getting married he must have known the wife is an "artist type"---so that is part of her whole person. Not supporting that is tantamount to stifling it, in my view-you need the validation and support of the person you love to feel whole-that's the disturbing( at least to me) truth about us social beings. That he is a counselor even makes it even worst, he should have known this...c'mon there is no excuse for this-except that the husband is selfish and took her for granted. When my kids were born, I had to give up many of my pursuits and put some of my interests and aspirations on hold. It was not my wife's fault .I had no resentment, although I missed them sometimes. It was my choice. Most parents do this.I agree. I myself knew that when my daughter was born, my life was no longer mine, really and I do not resent it. It is what it is. I chose to have her, afterall. However, the OP has no other pursuits in life, Reg, she is an artist, it is part of who she is...this is not a career move or a hobby or an interest. It needed to be nurtured and acknowledged. We are not talking about crocheting or playing golf here....this is who she is, that has remained buried. And, going into this, she could see he was not a supermodel or artistic. Yet, she willingly vowed to remain faithful. No one forced her and she went in with her eyes open. As you can see, her love for him was based obviously, on something profound-that despite the fact that he does not have "supermodel looks" she chose to be with him and has remained faithful to him, until dissatisfaction took over. But how arrogant and uncaring that when she asked that they try and work on their marriage he refused? Using your logic, her husband is entitled to cheat, as well, should he feel she is not cerebral enough, busty enough, whatever.Actually, I said that while I understand why she cheated, I did not think it was the best solution and that there must be some compromise somewhere, but that I did not know what it is...I am not sure if you missed that part. Using my logic, it would be that if you love your spouse and want your marriage to work, weather the storm, etc. you have to recognize and acknowledge what makes your spouse who she/he is and support or nurture that part. If it takes some effort from you, then so be it. I am not talking about some frivolous hobby or interest here, I am talking about an identity. Look, I am of Japanese heritage, it is important to me that my spouse recognizes that fact. It is an important part of who I am. He must support my yearly visits to a Shinto Shrine, he must understand why it is important for my daughter to go to a Japanese after-school school, things like that. AND it is important for him to stop making anti-jap jokes every Pearl Harbor day.
pelicanpreacher Posted March 15, 2009 Posted March 15, 2009 What I sense is an underlying resentment that's been brewing beneath the surface of OP's marriage for a very long time. Her husband, though a decent man, does probably harbor control issues and is maybe a bit rigid in his outlook on how his marriage should function. His unwillingness to address OP's desire to seek marital counselling might be a result of his contentment with the status quo and irritation or fear at changing his core beliefs. He probably sees himself as the one that must carry the entire logical load as breadwinner, disciplinarian, and emotional rock for this relationship making him feel exasperated at the thought of bending any farther to support OP's needs. Beyond the betrayal itself, her husband probably feels like he's done so much, given so much, and sacrificed so much to sustain this relationship already that to have his efforts taken for granted and maligned by infidelity comes as an unfathomable insult that infuriates him to no end. OP on the other hand, although appreciative of the security and intelligence her husband provides in their daily interactions while providing for the needs of the famjily, still feels bereft of her own passions by the dominance her husband's demeanor weighs upon the marriage and household while still having to contend with the demands coming from raising a children which and maybe leaves her feeling frustrated and marginalised in her own existence. Though buoyed by the creature comforts her marriage provides she seems somewhat adrift and rudderless in finding herself and forging her own identity and sees his lack of support for her artistic inclinations to be a rejection of her passion's core being. Floating through life in a numbed limbo with these resentments building for so long seems to have caused a big enough rift in her attachment to the marriage that a pretty face's kindred spirit was a temptation too great to resist. I say that unless the OP asserts herself and identity to become an equal partner in this marriage and begins sowing the joys of her own nervana in this relationship again any efforts to reconcile and win her husband's trust back again won't solve her problems which will keep this marriage in a state of perpetual vulnerability. The question that begs then is does the OP have the fortitude and strength of will to grow from within to become an acualized adult able and capable of blazing her own paths without validation from her husband or anyone else. Definately difficult to do considering the art world is all about the appreciation of the public eye!
tami-chan Posted March 15, 2009 Posted March 15, 2009 What I sense is an underlying resentment that's been brewing beneath the surface of OP's marriage for a very long time. Her husband, though a decent man, does probably harbor control issues and is maybe a bit rigid in his outlook on how his marriage should function. His unwillingness to address OP's desire to seek marital counselling might be a result of his contentment with the status quo and irritation or fear at changing his core beliefs. He probably sees himself as the one that must carry the entire logical load as breadwinner, disciplinarian, and emotional rock for this relationship making him feel exasperated at the thought of bending any farther to support OP's needs. Beyond the betrayal itself, her husband probably feels like he's done so much, given so much, and sacrificed so much to sustain this relationship already that to have his efforts taken for granted and maligned by infidelity comes as an unfathomable insult that infuriates him to no end. Her husband is not a decent man. He is a counselor-bound by ethics-not to abuse...and he physically abused her. He has a basic character flaw. He is self-important, self-absorb and selfish. OP on the other hand, although appreciative of the security and intelligence her husband provides in their daily interactions while providing for the needs of the famjily, still feels bereft of her own passions by the dominance her husband's demeanor weighs upon the marriage and household while still having to contend with the demands coming from raising a children which and maybe leaves her feeling frustrated and marginalised in her own existence. Though buoyed by the creature comforts her marriage provides she seems somewhat adrift and rudderless in finding herself and forging her own identity and sees his lack of support for her artistic inclinations to be a rejection of her passion's core being. Floating through life in a numbed limbo with these resentments building for so long seems to have caused a big enough rift in her attachment to the marriage that a pretty face's kindred spirit was a temptation too great to resist. Weak, yes, obviously. That is why she is in limbo. That is why she takes scraps. That is why she is kissing the ground that her husband walks on....You are right, she must forge on her own identity--separate from her marriage and her husband. But inasmuch as we try not to need the validation of others, as social beings that is an impossible feat. We need the validation of people we love, or people we respect -our peers, co-workers, etc. She needs to learn though, that she does not need validation from people who are indifferent to that part of her (i.e. her husband). I think right now, OP thinks she does not have any leverage to go for the things she is passionate about. She just wants to be forgiven. OP, I say, do not be at your husband's mercy. Carve your own niche. Stop kissing up to him. Be true to your words. That is all you can do. If he doesn't believe it, let him deal with it. But do not do anything that would feed his suspicions. You must remain at a "no-contact" status with the OM. In the meantime, channel that negative energy to something artsy...express yourself.
Reggie Posted March 16, 2009 Posted March 16, 2009 Again, I saw no reference to his not having supported who she is. Perhaps her decision to go the route she did was entirely self imposed. We do not know. And, it is just as possible that one's identity can be tied to athletic accomplishments or crocheting as it is to "art". It's arbitrary to elevate on type of interest or onclination over another. Someone could be totally tied into collecting baseball cards just as much as painting a masterpiece and it is unfair to say one interest is better or more worthy than another. I don't understand the refusal of counseling or the physical abuse, at all.Obviously , neither she or he is perfect and he has a problem with violence which is enough to destroy a marriage.
tami-chan Posted March 16, 2009 Posted March 16, 2009 ...he's just not that interested in that part of me. And i feel I am dying without expressing that part of me. I was a lifelong artist when we met and I quit all of it to take care of him, the kids and the business. that's what OP said...I think she referred to it, at least twice.
Reggie Posted March 16, 2009 Posted March 16, 2009 Yes, but that is distinct from stifling. I don't expect my wife to give a rat's ass about whether I can hit a low fade( and that is what I am all about, sadly). One has to chase this stuff on one's own. To what do you attribute her mentioning his good looks, if support of her art was the really important thing?
tami-chan Posted March 16, 2009 Posted March 16, 2009 Yes, but that is distinct from stifling. I don't expect my wife to give a rat's ass about whether I can hit a low fade( and that is what I am all about, sadly). One has to chase this stuff on one's own. To what do you attribute her mentioning his good looks, if support of her art was the really important thing? Do you not see? she did all that inspite of herself-it stifled her and her husband did not care-not interested! you and her are obviously very different, you are able to do what you are passionate about regardless of whether your wife or ex-wife or SO cares about it or not...she didnt-thus, the advise for her to forge her own... the "international model good looks"-icing on the cake. Not only was he understanding and inspiring..he was also reallllly, good looking...a good looking man who is attentive, supportive, etc.etc.....thus one heck of an inspiration right there, apparently!
Reggie Posted March 16, 2009 Posted March 16, 2009 I think that is what we all should do. Just be responsible for fulfilling ourselves because, really, no one can do it for you. I'd bet, and this is specualtion, that the looks were the main draw. If Letrec(sp?) took an interest in her, I doubt she would have had relations with him. It is amazing the things we can sell to ourselves to justify the stuff we pull.
tami-chan Posted March 16, 2009 Posted March 16, 2009 I think that is what we all should do. Just be responsible for fulfilling ourselves because, really, no one can do it for you. I'd bet, and this is specualtion, that the looks were the main draw. If Letrec(sp?) took an interest in her, I doubt she would have had relations with him. It is amazing the things we can sell to ourselves to justify the stuff we pull. I agree--hard to do when you are raised to believe the one you love who loves you back is supposed to support, inspire and validate you. Still, not a good reason to cheat(not that there is ever a good reason to cheat), certainly common enough reason used and therefore must be addressed.
Reggie Posted March 16, 2009 Posted March 16, 2009 Well, I think that support, etc is nice and desirable. But, anyone will fall short if the other relies on him/her completely for this. One has to augment it by oneself. If the standard is total support, and especially validation, the everone would be justified in cheating. I have no doubt that she fell short in some areas, too,as we all do, especially once the newness rush wears off. What I often see form WS's is a complete unawareness of his/her own shortcomings in these same areas. I heard a littany of complaints about my deficiencies form my XW(and I am better looking then her, IMHO((and that of my sisiters((nepotism is a nice thing)). I told her I had no doubt she was dissatisfied with me, but I only had a couple days and would not have had time to list my own grievances.
taylor Posted March 16, 2009 Posted March 16, 2009 Not true TAylor, Most of the cheaters who come here want validation, they are looking for "enablers" and kindred spirits to commiserate with. If you look at some of the posts, they almost never change their minds and almost always resolve to do just what they intended to do in the first place. The poster came on here basically asking two questions: How to deal with her husband in the aftermath of the affair..the need to be transparent...answering his questions..how long will the suffering last? AND How to deal with her lingering feelings for the OM and how to deal with withdrawal symptoms. I think both of these questions could have been answered without putting the OP on the defensive. ANd I don't see how either one of these questions/concerns was an attempt to validate the affair. It is true when people are hurting, they do want to hear from others who are "in the same boat." This goes for any of life's trials and tribulations, not just affairs. I came on this forum a year ago because I was in such a state of confusion and pain..and had no one to talk to. I was looking for help. Not validation. I wanted to "talk" to others who were going thru what I was going thru...someone who had been there, done that. To gain some insight..figure out what direction I should go in next. There were many posters who helped tremendously...took me by the hand and led me out of danger. I was on the verge of crossing into a PA. I needed someone to give me strength to not go there. Many did. But there were others whose posts did nothing but hurt me more...made me feel weaker..and more confused. These posters were just bent on lashing out at me...one called me a whore. Many told me I should divorce my husband because I didn't deserve him. I didn't come on the forum to be called a whore and it served absolutely no purpose but to make me feel more pain and to make me feel weaker. I had no intention of divorcing my husband. If I had I would have just moved into the PA with the OM and let the chips fall where they fell. I was trying to AVOID doing something that would lead to divorce...so telling me to go get a divorce served no purpose at all. The poster that helped me the most was a BS who was non-judgmental and answered the questions I asked. A former OM gave me the perspective I needed to let go of my OM. And a particular OW provided the comfort I needed to deal with the pain and the grief. Today, I am in recovery with my husband because this board gave me the strength and the guidance to let go of the OM, deal with the grief, and recommit to my husband. But the posters who helped the most did so with positive, not negative comments.
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