penumbra Posted March 10, 2009 Posted March 10, 2009 Hello everyone... Just curious about how many of those who are currently OWs or have been in the past also have a history of abandonment/abuse/neglect. I would venture to guess a high percentage. It's truly the only explanation (note, not excuse) I can fathom for having allowed myself to get caught up in this situation (going on six months). For those of you who would suggest therapy, I am already there, and was there long before this started. I am presently trying to get my head around this and get out. Just when I thought it couldn't get any worse, it has... Under the guise of being "happy". But this supposed "bliss" is false and short-lived. It is based on a lie. Supposed "open marriage" or not. I've known several women over the years who have been OW to various MM and have always stood on the sidelines, wondering. Now, I am wondering how I have managed to place myself in the same situation. Perhaps it was because I judged them, somehow, from the outside. "It was the best of times, it was the worst of times."
willing Posted March 10, 2009 Posted March 10, 2009 could well be, never read about this though. Yea I am OW to teach my H a lesson cuz hes cheated all the time in our marriage I finally thought id do it too. yes its short-lived. i never thought i was abandoned or anything but my shrink says my parents neglected me and i was and at risk when my h came into my life. maybe thats why i stuck with him all this time. i started this A while in therapy. i had an emotional break down of sorts and had to do something to snap out of my misery. i was totally faithful for 20 years before this. sometimes i hate him cuz i love him despite all the shyte hes put us thru. I want to know if i should tell him about the A and see if HE efing can handle it better than i did his A's.
Author penumbra Posted March 10, 2009 Author Posted March 10, 2009 I am sorry to hear what you have been through with your H. I always have thought that, for a W to stand by a H who is known to be a serial cheater, she would have to have issues of her own. Being cheated on, in addition to being tossed crumbs as an OW, is just another subtle form of emotional abuse, I believe. More insidious and more damaging than perhaps any other version of abuse. I have always believed in women supporting other women, which makes me doubly angry at myself for being in this situation. He says that it's an open relationship... Or maybe that's just how I would describe it, based on the information I was given. Still, to agree to an open relationship... Isn't that just the same as openly agreeing to stand by a serial cheater? I believe he is truly loyal, but faithless.
Author penumbra Posted March 10, 2009 Author Posted March 10, 2009 I am sorry to hear what you have been through with your H. I always have thought that, for a W to stand by a H who is known to be a serial cheater, she would have to have issues of her own. Being cheated on, in addition to being tossed crumbs as an OW, is just another subtle form of emotional abuse, I believe. More insidious and more damaging than perhaps any other version of abuse. I have always believed in women supporting other women, which makes me doubly angry at myself for being in this situation. He says that it's an open relationship... Or maybe that's just how I would describe it, based on the information I was given. Still, to agree to an open relationship... Isn't that just the same as openly agreeing to stand by a serial cheater? I believe he is truly loyal, but faithless.
jwi71 Posted March 10, 2009 Posted March 10, 2009 Penumbra, Care to share more of how you got here? The more you share the better the advice and/or perspective...
Montclair0011 Posted March 10, 2009 Posted March 10, 2009 penumbra, I'm sure there is a relationship between abandonment/neglect and the willingness to be an OW or some other sub-standard relationship. When you feel that no one will love you or that you are undeserving of love, you are more willing to put up with whatever is offered, not thinking you can do better. You are also starved for affection. In my case I had a horrible, loveless childhood and spent much of my youth involved in unrequited love situations where the person either rejected me after a short relationship or did not even want to go out with me from the get go. In at least one case, I'm not sure the guy even knew I like him. I would obsess about these guys and ignore real opportunities for relationships. I think unconsciously I was afraid to get involved because I thought they would never consdier someone like me or would eventually reject/humiiate me. Meanwhile I was in pain all the time but I had some control. I eventually did get over this enough to get involved in real relationships and marriage, but after a long time I have been abandoned as I feared. I've been in therapy for about three years now and feel like some of this is finally getting worked out. Hopefully it's not too late for me as I'm no longer young. So except for a brief period where the guy I was seeing went back to his wife, I've not been an OW, but I think my experience of allowing mysef to be in marginalized relationships is related. A big part about fear of abandonment is feeling like you don't any control. Being an OW you have some control as the guy is in a marriage, says you are so much better than his wife (and you might not be used to being preferred over other women) and not as likely to leave you for someone else unless he's a total sleazebag and sleeps with lots of women (not the typical cheater I think). So you have a procedure to see him and he's committed to you sort of. The downside is that you are miserable and wasting time. You need to find the strenght to get out of this toxic relationship and leave.
LovieDove24 Posted March 10, 2009 Posted March 10, 2009 Penumbra, People who experienced abandonment or neglect are at extremely high risk of getting involved in unhealthy relationships--whether that means they are the OW or not. Think of all your previous relationships before being the OW, did you feel unfulfilled in these relationships as well? I'm willing to bet yes. Its very possible that you just happened to travel a different avenue this time. Both of my parents were raging alcoholics my entire childhood. Needless to say, none of my emotional needs were met and often times some of my most basic were not as well (food and shelter). I was an outstanding student, polite, excessively responsible and never "stepped out of line" all in hopes that my parents would put down the bottle and pay some damn attention to me. A little recognition was all I wanted. Very sad really. But looking back, a good lesson I can take from this is that it didn't matter HOW great of a kid I was, this wasn't MY problem. Unfortunatly, you can't pick your parents. Of course my adult relationships reflected this yearning for love, attention and recognition that I so desperatley craved. What I wasn't realizing as an adult is that you CAN pick your relationships partners (unlike your parents!). I finally dug my head out of the sand with my last relationship trauma. It so clearly highlighted the abandonment I felt as a child. My ex left me when I was two months pregnant. He skipped out of state. It was as if someone was holding a giant neon sign above my head saying "Duh, you picked an abandoner because it's all you've ever known! If it wasn't him, or this situation even, it would've been someone else at some other time." Thank God for prayer and the ability to self reflect. It was my official lightbulb moment and I'm not looking back. At this point in my life I am not even attempting to date again yet. I know that if I do date before I "feel the heal" I am very suceptible to falling in a bad relationship. Every day I feel a little bit stronger. Every day I put my past a little bit further behind me. Every day I realize more and more that unrequited love is not the kind for me anymore. I am beginning to realize I'm worth more than gold!
OWoman Posted March 10, 2009 Posted March 10, 2009 Just curious about how many of those who are currently OWs or have been in the past also have a history of abandonment/abuse/neglect. I would venture to guess a high percentage. I would guess that that depends on whether one enters a R as an OW from a position of strength or weakness. Most of the OWs here, it seems, are in the latter position - hoping for something more / better, but settling for being an OW as better than nothing, or some kind of holding position in the meantime. A few OWs here genuinely choose to be OWs, preferring that R because of the benefits it brings and using the strengths of that position to their own benefit. I would guess that the OWs who are "settling" rather than "choosing" would be the ones with a history of abandonment / abuse / neglect, while those who are choosing would be those who have a history of having things their own way, of calling the shots and of unwillingness to compromise. But as others have suggested, I don't think that's peculiar to an A. I think that low self-esteem as a result of abandonment, abuse or neglect can manifest in unhealthy Rs of many kinds, or an unhealthy position in any kind of R. If your R (and your position in it) is working for you, and is sustainably working for your partner/s, that's great, whatever its nature. But if it's not, and you don't feel able to negotiate something else that will work for you (or will work better for you) then that kind of compromising suggests an undervaluing of yourself in Rs.
willing Posted March 10, 2009 Posted March 10, 2009 So, owoman, did you have any of the issues OP is asking about? I entered my affair from a position of Choosing - in every sense of the word. Not for lack of self-esteem (far from it, been admired by lots, and I always felt I could pick and choose whomever I wanted because thats how its been. Ive been a decent person, intelligent etc) but perhaps in order to knock myself down to H's level, since he's always accused me of being such a goody goody and perfect and having high confidence and 'knowing who I am' etc that I couldn't possibly understand how he feels. Is this my experiment? maybe. I wont do this again, but while I am in it, I am going to learn as much as I can, first-hand. I studied psychology at college, read a ton of books on Affairs, and let me just say that my having my own affair helped me understand exactly what choice and planning goes into having an A (no 'it just happened' bull$hit!) and helped me distance myself from my own M since H doesn't deserve my fidelity. Ef him. He thinks he's 'all that' since I only chose to sleep with him in my lifetime, but once he finds out that I too, can choose to screw around on him, lets see how he's going to cry like a baby, and learn firsthand how Ef'g painful it is. Don't think he's going to smirk at me any more from his 'position of strength' when he feels the devastation first hand. So the bottom line is that I had a lot of self esteem and confidence. I only point out what the shrink once said about seeing my family neglecting me (youngest child, death in family, etc) , there wasn't any abuse, but not that much time parents and one- on- one with me. But I never felt being 'neglected'. And I have been very capable from a young age. But - owoman, your post hints that YOU are the OW that Chose her position from a position of power, not weakness, but can you answer the OP's question of Whether you might have had Any of those issues she mentioned? Whether or not you feel confidence, what is your background from a psychological point of view?
Author penumbra Posted March 11, 2009 Author Posted March 11, 2009 Penumbra, Care to share more of how you got here? The more you share the better the advice and/or perspective... Jwi71, I was extremely vulnerable when this situation began. I have a history of childhood abandonment, emotional and sexual abuse, which has led to a series of bad choices in my adult relationships, sometimes physically and always emotionally abusive in nature. When I made contact via email with my MM for professional reasons, I was on the tail end of an incredibly painful, verbally abusive and towards the end, physically abusive relationship (which has ended in a restraining order). He and I had met and worked together a few years ago on a short term project in another country and had not been in contact since then. Then, almost half a year ago, I contacted him for professional reasons, asking for a professional favor on behalf of a friend. I was surprised that he responded to my request and not only that, asked if I were interested in working with him again. Why was I surprised at his response? Because he is a very well-known man and highly successful in his field of work. Although I knew he remembered me, as we had worked closely together, I had not expected him to respond at all, let alone with a job offer. Needless to say, I was astonished and flattered. But I was also wary, because he had lost his temper with me (very high pressure situation) on a couple of occasions when we worked together before. He began asking opening me up via email, asking more personal questions. We admitted that there had been a spark and a deep sense of "knowing" between us when we had first met but that the timing had been off. I was heartbroken at the time, caught up in an unrequited love story with another person we were working with. As our email conversation grew more personal, we discovered that we had a startling amount in common, both intellectually and spiritually. He hinted at a sexual element early on, smoothly weaving it into our conversations (no, that did not escape my notice and made me wary at first) and I was attracted to his intellect and his attentiveness. We developed an incredible rapport and revealed a lot about ourselves to each other. It turned out that he has a painful history of abandonment, much like mine. He began expressing that he was falling in love with me. After having been told I was worthless, useless, screamed/shouted at, shunned and ignored for days and weeks on end without touch or acknowledgement from my now xBF of three years, this man's apparent admiration and attention was salve to the soul and difficult to resist. I was not aware he was married; however, as it became clear that his intentions were becoming romantic, I asked him if he were attached. He reacted with apparent surprise. "Of course I am - Didn't you know?" He claimed that he had thought that I knew, as everyone had known, with whom we had worked. I had not known, of course, and told him that I was uncomfortable with where our relationship seemed to be going, considering his relationship status. I inquired more about his M, which is open in nature, according to his description. He travels and is away from home a great deal and I understood how this might make sense in his situation. I kept asking questions. I told him that I know about open relationships and that open means all the way open, meaning that nothing is kept secret. He said that this was different and that it could be "destructive". And that he wasn't ready or willing to tell. In short, I resisted a a great deal, due to the lack of clarity and evasiveness of some of his answers, but succumbed in the end and it became a full-blown EA. He says that he has never felt this way before (which I took with a heavy grain of salt, of course), that I am the best thing that has ever happened to him, that when we had begun our discovering of each other, that it was if everything suddenly made sense (as if he had found what was missing). We truly astound each other and connect on every level, and it is incredible, and amazing. He has been there for me through everything and has been a catalyst to many positive changes taking place in my life. With his love and support, I have found the courage to leave a hopelessly abusive situation and have regained much of my life and happiness back. I have begun reconnecting with friends, from whom I was isolated for so long, investing time and energy into myself, going back to the activities I once enjoyed, gaining confidence. We have fallen deeply in love. Or maybe only I have and he is going through the motions? Maybe he made me fall in love with how I feel when I am "with" him? Despite everything, a realistic part of me has always kept quiet watch, waiting for the other shoe to drop. He has been wonderful in all respects, except one - He is married. I appreciate that he doesn't speak about his W negatively or at all, really, because it is disrespectful. It doesn't sound like there is anything particularly wrong in their M, from what I can tell. Only that she is not who she was when they married. Whatever that means. I also note his loyalty to his W by not making rash moves based on new feelings of being "in love". It would be difficult for me to respect a man who did so. After several months, we felt the need to see each other in person. I feel that he practically reads my mind. It seems I need only to think of something and he already is speaking about it. This incredible connection was only magnified by our visit in person. We met in another country for a few days and it was more incredible than we had ever imagined. We connect on every level and I have never felt anything like it. Which only makes the situation that much more confusing and difficult, now that I am solidly back in my own reality, away from him and feeling the weight of reality. I don't like secrets and have never intentionally set out to hurt anyone. I hate to be in a situation that lacks integrity and I am ashamed of my weakness for not finding my way out. When I returned home, I nearly broke it off with him... As I see that he is a man that is loyal, but faithless. And I told him many times that I need a man that is devoted to me. He said that there were certain things he would have to "give up" in order for us to be together. But surely, he could, if his many words were true. And actions speak louder than words. So does inaction. Inaction speaks loudly and clearly. He is twice my age and a very accomplished man. Surely, he has had enough "experience" by now? Will no amount of conquests satisfy his sad childhood emptiness, I wonder? Does he not recognize this? I see how we are attracted to those with similar childhood issues... But we c an either aggravate those issues or be compassionate and healing to each other. By continuing to be involved with each other, I feel we are doing the former, not the latter. And all parties are in for being deeply hurt. Thank you for listening. I feel completely lost. And I am not naive. He brought up the job proposal again while I was visiting and I said I did not think it wise. He looked obviously disappointed but said he wasn't, when I called him on it. I don't think he is being honest with himself. And if a man can not be honest with himself, then how can he be open and honest with anyone else?
Montclair0011 Posted March 11, 2009 Posted March 11, 2009 That's some story, penumbra. Sounds like your relationship with the MM has been good for you in some ways. It sure sounds like an improvement on what you were going through before. But it also seems that you are at a crossroads and have opportunity now to make better choices than what you have done in the past. Being with a married man twice your age is rarely the best choice, especially for someone who longs for a committed relationship. It's great that you are in therapy now and hopefully that will help you overcome your painful past and be open to finding and accepting healthy relationships. It won't be easy but you don't want to look back on your life and see that you allowed your bad beginning to ruin the rest. Good luck!
Athena Posted March 11, 2009 Posted March 11, 2009 We met in another country for a few days and it was more incredible than we had ever imagined. We connect on every level and I have never felt anything like it. Sigh -- this is exactly the type of thing my H would do with OW. I hope you are not talking about MY H? This whole thing of his being a Knight in Shining Armor is EXACTLY the role he relishes most with OW! He said that there were certain things he would have to "give up" in order for us to be together. But surely, he could, if his many words were true. And actions speak louder than words. So does inaction. Inaction speaks loudly and clearly. Its us women that allow a man to get away with treating us less than... we think its out of our Love for them that we Don't Ask Much From Them, but they just shrug and don't give anymore than we had laid down as our standards and expectations from the get-go. My mother-in-law, a very loving and generous woman gave her all to a man who wants her, yes, but doesn't do anything over and beyond what he is told to do... my mother- in- law told me 22 years ago (but I wasn't listening to the extended meaning) that ''You must demand jewelery from your man, because if you don't, you won't get anything... look at me" she said, showing me her empty fingers "no rings, and we've passed our Silver Anniversary... every time H asked me 'What should I buy you, dear?', I shyly giggled and said, 'Oh, nothing, we can't afford anything!!!' So guess what" mother-in-law got fiery here: "I GOT NOTHING!!! -- STOOPIID EH?" Extrapolating this, it appears that the less you expect from a man, the less you actually get. Men don't act like women, in love. They don't sacrifice and all... they do the minimum, unless you specifically tell them what you like and want. If you don't expect him to leave his W for you, he wont. Why should he? Hes happy with you on the side.
Author penumbra Posted March 12, 2009 Author Posted March 12, 2009 Meanwhile I was in pain all the time but I had some control. Montclair0011 ~ Care to explain what you mean by this - That you had some control? In what way did it make you feel you retained some control by being involved in unrequited love situations, do you think? I eventually did get over this enough to get involved in real relationships and marriage, but after a long time I have been abandoned as I feared. What was it that made you "get over it" enough to get involved in "real" relationships? What was the realization that you made, and what led to it? Do you think your own fears of abandonment somehow led to your eventual abandonment? Did they contribute to behaviors that led to the other person abandoning you, you feel? I've been in therapy for about three years now and feel like some of this is finally getting worked out. Hopefully it's not too late for me as I'm no longer young. Personally, therapy has never worked for me and I've been in and out of it since I was in 8th grade. When you say that you hope that it's not too late for you, what do you mean? What do you hope for in your life? I don't believe it's ever to late to find a truly loving relationship; however, it does become too late, obviously, to have things like children and families. Did you mean the former or the latter? A big part about fear of abandonment is feeling like you don't any control. Being an OW you have some control as the guy is in a marriage, says you are so much better than his wife (and you might not be used to being preferred over other women) and not as likely to leave you for someone else unless he's a total sleazebag and sleeps with lots of women (not the typical cheater I think). I can see what you mean by this... But I think it is only the semblance or illusion of having control. My MM does not tell me such obvious lies... And never puts down his wife, nor tells me that I am better, or preferred. I am also not naive enough to believe that I am somehow better than his wife, nor is this about an ego trip, for me. I believe that anyone is likely to leave us at any time. It is a fact of life. Whether by having an A, or by sudden death, etc., everyone eventually leaves us. Everything passes. The downside is that you are miserable and wasting time. You need to find the strenght to get out of this toxic relationship and leave. It is a strange feeling... Feeling incredibly loved and unloved, at once. Hoping and despairing, being full of joy and misery. I think most of the negative aspects are caused by my own thought patterns, rather than actual events, strangely enough. Thank you for sharing your story.
Author penumbra Posted March 12, 2009 Author Posted March 12, 2009 People who experienced abandonment or neglect are at extremely high risk of getting involved in unhealthy relationships--whether that means they are the OW or not. Think of all your previous relationships before being the OW, did you feel unfulfilled in these relationships as well? I'm willing to bet yes. Its very possible that you just happened to travel a different avenue this time. Yes, LovieDove - This is exactly the conclusion I have come to: I have settled for unfulfilling, controlling, abusive, toxic relationships again and again. And this one is perhaps the worst of them all, as it appears so loving and beautiful and so much the opposite of the painful abuse I endured in the relationship I just got out of - but is equally abusive, emotionally. Both of my parents were raging alcoholics my entire childhood. Needless to say, none of my emotional needs were met and often times some of my most basic were not as well (food and shelter). I was an outstanding student, polite, excessively responsible and never "stepped out of line" all in hopes that my parents would put down the bottle and pay some damn attention to me. A little recognition was all I wanted. Very sad really. LovieDove ~ Thank you for sharing your story and I am sorry to hear about how you struggled, growing up. It seems we both went into survival mode in much the same manner: By overachieving, perhaps proving our worth and/or lovability when the fact was, all along, that we were and always inherently lovable. But that is not an easy thing to understand, emotionally, is it? Intellectually, I've always known this, I think... But emotionally/subconsciously, I feel I never will. My ex left me when I was two months pregnant. He skipped out of state. It was as if someone was holding a giant neon sign above my head saying "Duh, you picked an abandoner because it's all you've ever known! If it wasn't him, or this situation even, it would've been someone else at some other time." Thank God for prayer and the ability to self reflect. It was my official lightbulb moment and I'm not looking back. What a horrible thing to endure. What is it that makes you to turn to God and prayer after so many terrible experiences? I turned to God again fairly recently but I am losing faith and hope again after so much hardship, pain, and disappointment. I realise a lot of it is due to my own actions; however, not all of it is. Also, I am struggling to understand why others in my close circle have made similar mistakes that have not resulted in the same pain, but happiness and a family. I often wonder why I walk this painful path while others seem to have had the right person placed in their lives much earlier on. It is beyond my understanding and difficult to accept, no matter how much I try to take it on faith. At this point in my life I am not even attempting to date again yet. I know that if I do date before I "feel the heal" I am very suceptible to falling in a bad relationship. Every day I feel a little bit stronger. Every day I put my past a little bit further behind me. Every day I realize more and more that unrequited love is not the kind for me anymore. I am beginning to realize I'm worth more than gold! I am happy for you, LovieDove, for learning to love yourself... It's a difficult, slow, arduous process, for some of us. I don't feel that I'll ever be in the same place. MM has fueled me with confidence and self-love in some ways... And that has made it difficult. If he doesn't choose me over his own desires, I have to remember that it doesn't make any of the wonderful things he's said about me any less true. Unfortunately, I don't believe anymore, as you do. I am thinking about ending my life. Everyone has always told me it will get better. But it never does. It gets increasingly worse and more painful. I am not strong enough to go through the heartbreak again. I admit that I don't really believe anymore, although I used to have glimmers of hope. The trouble is, I believe that the pain is spiritual in nature, and therefore, will not end with physical death.
Author penumbra Posted March 12, 2009 Author Posted March 12, 2009 I would guess that that depends on whether one enters a R as an OW from a position of strength or weakness. Most of the OWs here, it seems, are in the latter position - hoping for something more / better, but settling for being an OW as better than nothing, or some kind of holding position in the meantime. A few OWs here genuinely choose to be OWs, preferring that R because of the benefits it brings and using the strengths of that position to their own benefit. I would guess that the OWs who are "settling" rather than "choosing" would be the ones with a history of abandonment / abuse / neglect, while those who are choosing would be those who have a history of having things their own way, of calling the shots and of unwillingness to compromise. OWoman, although I respect your opinion, I would argue that both positions, "strength and weakness", actually stem from the same place. I believe the origins are the same, but manifest themselves differently and only appear to be on the opposite ends of the spectrum: "strength" and "weakness". I would say that those who are "Using the strengths of the OW position to their own benefit" are actually just as deeply insecure as the OW who are "settling" for crumbs. I would guess that both likely experienced trauma/rejection/neglect/abandonment/abuse at some point early on and both use their chosen positions to inhibit intimacy, of which they are deeply afraid, somewhere in the farthest reaches of their minds and hearts. Both seem to have issues of control, stemming from a similar place. If your R (and your position in it) is working for you, and is sustainably working for your partner/s, that's great, whatever its nature. But if it's not, and you don't feel able to negotiate something else that will work for you (or will work better for you) then that kind of compromising suggests an undervaluing of yourself in Rs. This is what I am struggling to understand. Is it really "unhealthy" to be in an open relationship, or is this merely society's labels at work? Is the world really so black and white? Am I struggling with the circumstances mostly because they are so much the opposite to the model of an ideal R I was spoon fed since earliest childhood? Isn't it possible to truly love more than one individual romantically at a time, as those who are involved in open/polyamorous relationships would claim? I think it is possible to truly love more than one individual at a time; however, it is not possible to give equal and just focus to both individuals, at least, not the amount of focus that is necessary to sustain both... This situation has certainly caused me to question my own values and has shaken the foundations of my own views which I have taken for granted; there is something healthy in that, I feel, although it is painful, right now.
OWoman Posted March 12, 2009 Posted March 12, 2009 OWoman, although I respect your opinion, I would argue that both positions, "strength and weakness", actually stem from the same place. I believe the origins are the same, but manifest themselves differently and only appear to be on the opposite ends of the spectrum: "strength" and "weakness". I would say that those who are "Using the strengths of the OW position to their own benefit" are actually just as deeply insecure as the OW who are "settling" for crumbs. I would guess that both likely experienced trauma/rejection/neglect/abandonment/abuse at some point early on and both use their chosen positions to inhibit intimacy, of which they are deeply afraid, somewhere in the farthest reaches of their minds and hearts. Both seem to have issues of control, stemming from a similar place. Perhaps for some; certainly not for all. People may choose to avoid something not out of fear, but for other reasons - like having other priorities. It's perfectly possible to have strong intimate relationships in other areas of one's life, and really enjoy those, but to choose the independence, freedom and control that being an OW offers. This is what I am struggling to understand. Is it really "unhealthy" to be in an open relationship, or is this merely society's labels at work? Is the world really so black and white? Am I struggling with the circumstances mostly because they are so much the opposite to the model of an ideal R I was spoon fed since earliest childhood? Isn't it possible to truly love more than one individual romantically at a time, as those who are involved in open/polyamorous relationships would claim? I think it is possible to truly love more than one individual at a time; however, it is not possible to give equal and just focus to both individuals, at least, not the amount of focus that is necessary to sustain both... This situation has certainly caused me to question my own values and has shaken the foundations of my own views which I have taken for granted; there is something healthy in that, I feel, although it is painful, right now. I don't see anything unhealthy in open Rs per se - some are unhealthy for other reasons - provided that all parties involved are on the same page when it comes to expectations. The risks with an open R of at least one party "going along" with it because it's better than nothing can be significant; also the understandings about primacy of the "original couple" are open to dispute and there is a strong risk that levels of detachment / attachment are not as neatly symmetrical as one might hope, leaving some participants in a stronger position than others. That said, if everyone can be honest and open enough to negotiate a situation that works for EVERYONE, it can be very fulfilling.
Author penumbra Posted March 12, 2009 Author Posted March 12, 2009 People may choose to avoid something not out of fear, but for other reasons - like having other priorities. It's perfectly possible to have strong intimate relationships in other areas of one's life, and really enjoy those, but to choose the independence, freedom and control that being an OW offers. I see what you're saying; but I also wonder if those explanations might also be ways of justifying a fear of being controlled, too? I may be wrong... But the word control keeps popping out at me and I actually have been tempted to continue my present MM relationship because I never want a man, or anyone else, to control me again... So, it makes me wonder, OWoman... I don't see anything unhealthy in open Rs per se - some are unhealthy for other reasons - provided that all parties involved are on the same page when it comes to expectations. Exactly - provided that all parties are on the same page, and no one is simply "tolerating". In that case, how different is an Open M to a marriage in which the wife is aware of serial affairs but chooses to look away? No difference, IMO. the understandings about primacy of the "original couple" are open to dispute and there is a strong risk that levels of detachment / attachment are not as neatly symmetrical as one might hope, leaving some participants in a stronger position than others. That said, if everyone can be honest and open enough to negotiate a situation that works for EVERYONE, it can be very fulfilling. Yes, I think the key words are openness and honesty. Only then could it be truly loving. I don't, however, believe the majority of the population are capable of being as honest with themselves and others as such an unusual arrangement requires... And there may be guidelines, but I think they are just begging to be broken in an open arrangement.
doushenka Posted March 12, 2009 Posted March 12, 2009 I've been in the Bad Place before. Almost hooked up with a married man because I was vulnerable and too easily impressed. After I ditched him and, once and for all, processed that experience, I got involved in a polyamorous relationship -- the healthiest one I've ever been in, and these are some of the things I have learned: Isn't it possible to truly love more than one individual romantically at a time, as those who are involved in open/polyamorous relationships would claim? It is, but only if honesty lies at the base of it. I have seldom heard of affairs yielding truly healthy polyamorous arrangements. In fact, most proponents of any form of ethical non-monogamy place a greater stress on the "ethical" than they do the "non-monogamy". And "ethical" requires choice, not coercion. "Ethical" means everyone's aware of what's going on, and in the best case, talking together about how to make the relationship worthwhile for everyone. All participants' needs are met. I think it is possible to truly love more than one individual at a time; however, it is not possible to give equal and just focus to both individuals, at least, not the amount of focus that is necessary to sustain both... I'm polyamorous myself, so maybe my ideas of "just focus" and "enough time" are different. For someone who's used to monogamy, sharing one's beloved will feel unnatural, which is why monogamous people tend to gravitate towards each other -- they come closer to sharing an idea of how much time is enough. Me, I'm satisfied with my relationship, even though I only get face time once a week and odd weekends. We keep in touch in other ways, and all three of us are working towards my being able to move closer. There's also the freedom to seek another lover if I like, which is an urge most monogamous people won't have. That's fine. You're no better a human being if you can love more than one person at a go, romantically. You're just different. This situation has certainly caused me to question my own values and has shaken the foundations of my own views which I have taken for granted; there is something healthy in that, I feel, although it is painful, right now. Pain has its own lessons. Some pain tells us we have needs going unmet, and that we should think of how to meet them. Some pain tells us we're in bad situations, and that we should get out of there. I can't tell you which pain this is, but I can encourage you to look at it and learn from it -- which is something you seem open to doing. Never will I advise anyone that one relationship style or another is a quick fix for what ails 'em. If you are monogamous, that's what you are; why force an unnecessary change? Better to find a lover who will love the same way you do, if you can. Be you above all else. That's the best protection against the kind of person who will take advantage; s/he will try to shake you out of being yourself, and when those cracks show up in your armor, s/he'll sneak right in. *spits* I knew a man who tried. He will not have the chance to try again.
Author penumbra Posted March 14, 2009 Author Posted March 14, 2009 Doushenka - Ti sluchaino ne russkaya?? Thank you for your kind reply. I'd be interested in hearing more about how polyamory works for you? One of my friends gave me a book about the ethics of polyamory and I have not yet read. Although I believe myself to be a staunch monogamist I also try to be open-minded. I am curious to know how this actuall works for people, in practice... It is, but only if honesty lies at the base of it. I have seldom heard of affairs yielding truly healthy polyamorous arrangements. In fact, most proponents of any form of ethical non-monogamy place a greater stress on the "ethical" than they do the "non-monogamy". And "ethical" requires choice, not coercion. "Ethical" means everyone's aware of what's going on, and in the best case, talking together about how to make the relationship worthwhile for everyone. All participants' needs are met. THis is what I am struggling with. My question is if the relationship is really open then why is it still secret. Honesty is part of the ethics of polyamory, I thought. On the other hand, I can understand this completely because some open marriages have a clause, spoken or unspoken, that falling in love is forbidden. So when it happens for the first time, I suppose it is only natural that it would take some time to sort out what should be done. So, in a sense, I understand where MM is coming from and therefore, want to give him a fair chance. Pain has its own lessons. Some pain tells us we have needs going unmet, and that we should think of how to meet them. Some pain tells us we're in bad situations, and that we should get out of there. I can't tell you which pain this is, but I can encourage you to look at it and learn from it -- which is something you seem open to doing. Exactly - And pain can also indicate growth, don't you think? If you are monogamous, that's what you are; why force an unnecessary change? Better to find a lover who will love the same way you do, if you can. I don't actually know if that's what I am... I was conditioned to be that way, but it does seem like I also have inclinations more towards what you have, at times... Be you above all else. That's the best protection against the kind of person who will take advantage; s/he will try to shake you out of being yourself, and when those cracks show up in your armor, s/he'll sneak right in. *spits* I knew a man who tried. He will not have the chance to try again. It appears you have been strengthed greatly by your painful experiences and suffering. Now I wonder about your experiences with someone who tried to take advantage... I wonder how you found the strength to resist him.
RecordProducer Posted March 14, 2009 Posted March 14, 2009 I want to know if i should tell him about the A and see if HE efing can handle it better than i did his A's. Don't tell him! Let him find out himself. Or even better, go to a printing shop and ask them to print one sample of a magazine with a famous title (e.g. People) and put a picture of you and Brad Pitt (photo-montage) on the cover. Put a title "Brad dumps Angelina for _____ (your name)"
doushenka Posted March 18, 2009 Posted March 18, 2009 Dear Penumbra, I'm so sorry for the delay -- I had a birthday weekend away with my love, and too many errands to run after that. Now I have time to sit and help. Doushenka - Ti sluchaino ne russkaya?? Alas, I only have a few words of Russian, something I'd change if I only had the time! Beautiful language. I'd be interested in hearing more about how polyamory works for you? One of my friends gave me a book about the ethics of polyamory and I have not yet read. Lord, that'd be a book in itself! I am part of a V arrangement: Beloved is the middle point, and we ladies are the other two. I'm not romantically involved with his love, but she is a valued friend. I don't think I could be in a relationship where my love's love really objected to me, or didn't know about me (!). My first date with my love was actually dinner with the three of us and a lot of talking. We took it slow, making sure everyone was on the same page and comfortable. We check in with each other regularly; if one of us is unsettled, all three address it. Honesty and trust are key for us. I have a hard time lying to begin with, but to them? Never. Never ever. I have never felt so secure in a relationship before. Because we're in an unusual situation, we have paid more attention to the bones of the relationship -- done more work, I suppose -- and I find that's something I would like to have in a future relationship, should I separate from my darlings. Lots of talk. Lots of understanding. THis is what I am struggling with. My question is if the relationship is really open then why is it still secret. Honesty is part of the ethics of polyamory, I thought. Some people do a "don't ask, don't tell" thing with their spouses. I don't think it's a good idea because it leads to secret-keeping, and secrets in a polyamorous relationship turn the whole thing into a minefield. One false step and boom! On the other hand, I can understand this completely because some open marriages have a clause, spoken or unspoken, that falling in love is forbidden. That's more typical of swinging. Polyamory, by definition, involves many loves. In swinging culture, however, falling in love is Not Done. So when it happens for the first time, I suppose it is only natural that it would take some time to sort out what should be done. Very much so. From here, I would say all three of you need to sit down, though, and discuss (if only once!) what each person needs from your relationship. I don't actually know if that's what I am... I was conditioned to be that way, but it does seem like I also have inclinations more towards what you have, at times... I would suggest looking for a discussion group in your area. You'll find newbies, old hands, and everything in between. It appears you have been strengthed greatly by your painful experiences and suffering. If I did not learn from them, the experience would have been wasted. I used to get so bogged down by pain that I could barely function. This time, I had to decide that I wanted to enjoy my life, and in doing so, be able to move on. Now I wonder about your experiences with someone who tried to take advantage... I wonder how you found the strength to resist him. I came to this forum. No, seriously. I asked for advice here and saw how awful the other OWs' experiences had been. I learned to look at that charismatic so-and-so in a new light. I asked the women around me how they saw him. Eventually, I went to my father and talked it through with him, since he'd known me all my life. When our talk revealed I'd been having anxiety flare-ups the whole time, it was like a great big starburst in the darkness. I wouldn't be panicking if I knew inside that I was on the right path. I decided that if I wanted real polyamory, then I'd go be around people who were doing it honestly. I wasn't into being a bit on the side. I needed to know that his wife approved, and since I could never know that, it was not a risk I wanted to take. Best wishes D
willing Posted March 24, 2009 Posted March 24, 2009 Don't tell him! Let him find out himself. Or even better, go to a printing shop and ask them to print one sample of a magazine with a famous title (e.g. People) and put a picture of you and Brad Pitt (photo-montage) on the cover. Put a title "Brad dumps Angelina for _____ (your name)" Thank you RecordProducer you put a smile on my face! And, yes, let him find out himself...
Recommended Posts