Q for men: how do you ever trust that your wife is committed to the marriage?

[movingonandon]

That could merely be a function of women having a lower incidence of avoidant personality issues in intimate relationships. Somebody has to make the evident move and women perhaps have better tools to do it.

 

Men often suffer failure alone and, besides death, divorce is one of the most traumatic situations that can happen in a man's life, and one which has marked connotations of failure, failure which is public and social. Add to that the tone of this thread where the "norm" is the man's assets and income are ravaged lends even more impetus to retain the status quo.

 

 

Yeah, you're probably right, but still: 2:1 ratio? That's pretty drastic difference .

So, first girls bitch about why guys won't marry them, then, after getting married, jump ship in larger numbers . I should stop reading about this stuff pronto. I'm anxious enough by nature, and this only makes me inclined to shut down completely from more serious relationships

 

(As for the assets part - why yes, of course, it is highly unusual - even these days - for the wife to earn as much or more as the husband... I consider it a problem simply because it provides an added incentive for divorce. I'v got nothing agains fair division of the joint marital assets...)

[Woggle]

If nobody is at fault nobody should be punished but too often the man ends up being penalized because his wife turns on him. I am all for easy divorce but divorce should be 100% except obligation to the kids. If your spouse leaves you on a whim that is their right but you should not have to pay them a dime of your money. That is why my wife and I keep our finances seperate. If she turns on me it will that much easier to get her out of my life and move on.

[movingonandon]

If nobody is at fault nobody should be punished but too often the man ends up being penalized because his wife turns on him. I am all for easy divorce but divorce should be 100% except obligation to the kids. If your spouse leaves you on a whim that is their right but you should not have to pay them a dime of your money. That is why my wife and I keep our finances seperate. If she turns on me it will that much easier to get her out of my life and move on.

 

There you go..., that's all I'm asking for . Seems so common sense yet there are so many horror stories...

Tthe only scenario where I can legitimately imagine post-divorce obligations would be a situation where: 1) it is clearly the husband's fault the marriage to fall apart (e.g. blatant infidelity, abuse, stuff like that) and 2) the woman has absolutely no education or means to support herself, and 3) has been devoted partner contributing to the family - i.e. she has actually forgone career opportunities in order to engage in domestic work.

In this case, yes, it would be fair for the jackass husband to be responsible for some financial support for her after the divorce.

But, barring the above situation (and child support), the system is just a major disincentive to marry.

[serial muse]

That could merely be a function of women having a lower incidence of avoidant personality issues in intimate relationships. Somebody has to make the evident move and women perhaps have better tools to do it.

 

Men often suffer failure alone and, besides death, divorce is one of the most traumatic situations that can happen in a man's life, and one which has marked connotations of failure, failure which is public and social. Add to that the tone of this thread where the "norm" is the man's assets and income are ravaged lends even more impetus to retain the status quo.

 

Interesting point. And there is, I think, still a stereotype in the world that women are the "caretakers" of relationships and are supposed to be the ones who deal with such things. And filing for divorce is often the logical conclusion of this - it seems to me sometimes that there's almost a "gentlemanly" aspect to this reticence, of some men not feeling it's okay to raise the issue of divorce, even when they want out. Instead, some may drag it on for years and/or have affairs rather than use the D word.

 

But this can also turn absurd, and it's what makes these statistics so completely useless. For example. My ex-husband had an affair. He did not want to stay married and, after I began to recover, neither did I. We lived apart for some time, etc., but he never filed, even though he was the driving force behind the breakup. Why? Because I think he felt just enough guilt over cheating that he viewed filing for divorce as adding insult to injury, or something. As though it made any difference at that point.

 

But although it was perfectly fine to destroy the relationship, he felt it wasn't his place to file - he wanted me to do it. So I did. Which makes me part of that 70% statistic, I guess. But does that make me a walkaway wife?

 

Because I don't think my situation is all that unusual. There's a social aspect to the issue of "who should file" that plays out in all sorts of ways, some of which make sense and some of which don't.

 

Given the kinds of fears over financial losses in divorce (and of losing contact with their kids) that are constantly expressed on these boards and in this very thread, I also wouldn't be surprised if there were a significant chunk of men who punt on doing the filing themselves out of fear as well - even when they are the ones who want out. (For example, see: the OW/OM boards). It's understandable, in a way, but it also makes that 70% statistic useless, because meanwhile these guys who are done with the marriage but afraid to file may be undermining the relationship in other ways, even if they don't do the actual straightforward "I'm divorcing you" thing. And then eventually perhaps their wives will file, for whatever reason (alienation of affection?) and there you go - 70%. There's all kinds of stuff that plays into it.

[carhill]

For clarity of my perspective, I've been the person talking about divorce as a solution and my wife earns more than me. That's a great example of exceptions to the "norm".

 

I totally neglected the dynamic of children, as we don't have any, but that's a critical factor in those relationship which do have children in them. I can't imagine how I'd feel knowing the numbers regarding custody, support and visitation during and after divorce. It would likely weigh heavily on my mind.

 

Perhaps a cynical view, I now see women as committed to marriage as their options are. I don't see that as a negative, merely reflective of our current social and evolutionary dynamics. That understanding/perception doesn't change my commitment to such a relationship, but I do approach it with open eyes and a realistic viewpoint. That's likely the most important thing I learned, to keep my eyes open

[Justanotherschmuck]

You have a lawyer write up a bulletproof prenup and if she won't sign it you don't marry her. If she won't put it in writing that she won't screw you in a divorce don't trust her. Also always respect yourself and let her know you can live a happy life without her. Also look for the red flags and how she has approached past relationships. If a man knows what to look for he can spot the signs even before he marries her.

 

If you need a prenup, move on, don't marry this one. I think the best chance of finding a woman who WILL live up to her vows is to look overseas. You might come up with a loser there also, but American society influences women in a big time lousy way nowadays. Putting yourself second, caring for your spouse, these are all negative traits in our society now. THis makes it close to impossible for a marriage to stay healthy.

 

You need to meet someone you TRUST UNCONDITIONALLY to even THINK about having a lasting marriage. You might be wrong in the long run, but at least you stand a fighting chance.

[PinkKittyKat]

I'm with Woggle on the prenup.

 

In this society, men have so much more to lose from a divorce.

Women usually get the kids, the house, and money every month til the kids are 18. With no proof of anything needed whatsoever. They don't even have to DISCUSS their unhappiness beforehand, it can slowly build up while she remains silent and BAM "I'm not happy anymore, Jim, I'm divorcing you and I'm taking the kids".

 

And poor Jim is left with no/limited contact with his kids, no loving wife, no place to go, no money... etc.

 

I am signing a prenup for my fiancé, I was the one who suggested it.

He tried to refuse, saying he trusted me, but I pushed for one. I plan on signing it with his approval. I see it as something every woman should do in these times as a sign of good faith.

 

If she isn't PLANNING to divorce you, then she shouldn't be upset over a prenup that will never be called into effect.

[Justanotherschmuck]

I don't understand, MOST people here are ragging about how shallow spouses are these days. Most are men, because most divorces are initiated by women. I've always believed women are the more selfish, more cutthroat of the sexes. As with everything there are exceptions, but with my wife about to walkaway, I am convinced. I always thought she was one of the good ones, one that puts the other first, one THAT KEEPS PROMISES. But, now I see. She is surrounded by toxic friends who tell her that "finding herself" and HER "being happy is all that counts. ANd she's buying it. But I'm paying for it.

 

If I believed I needed a PRENUP, I wouldn't get married. Period. If a PRENUP is what you need to be secure, than the spouses character, honesty and integrity ARE NOT UP TO SNUFF, are they? Otherwise you WOULD NOT need a prenup. For those with loving parents, isn't THEIR WORD enough for you to feel safe and secure? Isn't the love and trust in a marriage supposed to be GREATER than the love for your FOO?

 

It looks like people are SETTLING for potential spouses. If society has talked people, especially women, into becomeing ME FIRST, selfish, and dishonest, well maybe its time marriage goes by the wayside, the way of dinosaurs.

 

Me, I refuse to degrade a BEAUTIFUL and loving sacrament, a vow of commitment and love with a PRENUP. I UNDERSTAND why people do trust others, and a prenup can be taken as NOTHING else as a biz contract. ANd in biz, its all based on trusting NO ONE. Biz used to be conducted on a handshake. ANd marriage vows USED to mean something.

 

Who says we are better off in todays world?

 

Finding two people who are loving and giving may be a rarity in todays world. Perhaps marriages should be as rare.

[PinkKittyKat]

Me, I refuse to degrade a BEAUTIFUL and loving sacrament, a vow of commitment and love with a PRENUP. I UNDERSTAND why people do trust others, and a prenup can be taken as NOTHING else as a biz contract. ANd in biz, its all based on trusting NO ONE. Biz used to be conducted on a handshake. ANd marriage vows USED to mean something.

 

Well, I consider a marriage contract to be no less of a legal document than a marriage. Personally, a marriage licence is a legal thing, and our promises to each other are the beautiful thing.

 

A marriage licence is merely the document that solidifies and makes legal the vows you have made.

 

A prenup is merely a document that solidifies and makes legal another vow you make.

 

I don't see how one degrades the other.

[Reggie]

You have a lawyer write up a bulletproof prenup and if she won't sign it you don't marry her. If she won't put it in writing that she won't screw you in a divorce don't trust her. Also always respect yourself and let her know you can live a happy life without her. Also look for the red flags and how she has approached past relationships. If a man knows what to look for he can spot the signs even before he marries her.

 

I was dumb enough to think this advice was wrong, in the past. But, this is exactly what any sane person, man or woman, should do these days. No way would I ever venture into the marital waters again, But, I have 5 kids, so the urge to pass on my f'd up lineage has abated.

But, if a guy wants to get married, be prepared for the sceanrio you described. Get the penupt. And, make sure she has her own attorney to advise her when she signs.

[Remy]

It seems from many of the replies that it is the 'taking of my money after she leaves' that makes most men angry about committing to marriage in future. I heard a male family psychologist give a lecture on marriage a few years ago. One of his basic tenets was that if men thought because they 'made the money' that was all they had to contribute to the marriage they could be in trouble.

 

His words were that if you make it all about money and don't look at other needs in the marriage you have a chance that your wife will decide to leave because she gets some of that money without all the extra work. He said that if you keep emphasising just the money then that is how your wife will view you - just the money maker. Not as someone who adds to her life, who gives her help when she needs it and even when she doesn't.

[carhill]

Some women just suck the life out of you. The money part is just an added stick in your eye. I can always make more money. Once they take my soul, it's gone.

 

FWIW, even our MC chided me for not getting a prenup. Ouch

[tami-chan]

One of the reasons I'm attracted to my current girlfriend in this sense is that she comes from a traditional and somewhat religious family, so it's likely that she'll prioritize marriage and family over "whims". On the other hand, she had almost no exposure to men (1 prior boyfriend, and 1 prior hook up), so I wonder if this means that she'll feel like she missed out on something later one...

 

 

hehe...this is too cute....

[Heart Broken Geek]

I am 100% certain if I announced I was leaving tonight, my wife would "make lemonaid", and she would be in contact with her lawyer first thing in the AM. I honestly doubt she would say "Why?".

 

So to answer your question, it is probably a person by person basis.