Q for men: how do you ever trust that your wife is committed to the marriage?

February 22, 2009

Hi there, I really hope this doesn't turn into a bitter thread - in fact, more than anything, I want to see positive thoughts.

I recently went through a break up of a relaitonship that I was assuming will end up in marriage. It was all sudden and unexpected, and made me think what a horror it would have been if we were actually married, and heaven forbid -had kids.

So, this got me thinking: given 1) the HORRIBLE (financial and emotional) consequences of divorce and 2) how EASY is it for a woman to get a divorce for vague or NO reason at all (all states but NY practice "no fault divorce" laws, so even if there is adultery and abuse that doesn't matter much), how do you ever trust a woman enough to commit to her in marriage?

The way things stand right now, she could pretty much wake up one morning with the vague feeling that she's not happy, and by the afternoon, she could be walking out of the door with your kids, half of your assets, and alimony payments that sentence you to poverty.

Before the 1970s, to obtain divorce, one of the parties had to be proven to have done some wrongdoing that violates the marriage contract. No more. You can be served the divorce papers, no need for any justification, and there's nothing you can do about it.

So, my question is how do you ever trust your wife in this situation, given that basically one episode of PMS could turn your life upside down...

I want to get married, perhaps even to my current girlfriend, but the liability and the risk seems unjustified... Am I just ridiculously paranoid?!?

February 22, 2009

I dont think you can I just think it's a leap of faith in this day and age about marriage. I mean we can trust one another but is a person trustworthy given the temptation that lays out there in the real world. If a person is easily led astray and does things no matter what happens to others I'd say that person will not be a good companion because they will have no empathy for your pain at all.

Women these days are fickle, backstabbing and conniving. but not all of them are. Some of them just has issues that run so deep that no matter what we do as men, it will end up manifestating in one way or another.

But didnt you just break up with your current girlfriend at the start of this thread ? if so then how can you still want to be married to her, or is this someone else?

February 22, 2009

You have a lawyer write up a bulletproof prenup and if she won't sign it you don't marry her. If she won't put it in writing that she won't screw you in a divorce don't trust her. Also always respect yourself and let her know you can live a happy life without her. Also look for the red flags and how she has approached past relationships. If a man knows what to look for he can spot the signs even before he marries her.

February 22, 2009

Trust that you're committed to the marriage and be clear in your expectations for your partner. Back that up legally. Wives you cannot control nor predict. Control yourself

February 22, 2009

LOL Wog you is crazy!!!

February 22, 2009

It's not crazy it makes perfect sense. Also men should always avoid trying to be a knight in shining armor. If you rescue a woman from a bad situation sooner or later she will come to the conclusion that she is not really in love with you but was drawn to the safety you represent. Find a woman who has her head screwed on straight already and isn't addicted to drama.

February 22, 2009

You can't really trust that to be honest with you. Just the same as a woman can expect the same from the man in the relationship. Marriage may seem a guarantee, an inescapable, impenetrable safe domain where you and your relationship is eternally protected but that simply isn't the case. And I think that's a GOOD thing. For many people in the past, for women and men - marriage became a trap. For some people it still is. We have the freedom to change, to fall out of love, to be able to leave if a marriage turns abusive and that can only be a good thing. A marriage is still a relationship and a relationship is based on FEELINGS and EMOTIONS which are fleeting and mecurial. Just as a womans bout of PMS could turn things on their head one night, so could a mans testosterone.

You have to know you can whether the realities of this world.

The temptation of having sex with or intimate connections with others.

The fact that you will have to compromise and sacrifice certain dreams, ambitions or aspects that otherwise effect your marriage.

The domesticity of daily life - chores etc.

The reality of children.

The potential loss of sex.

Arguments, loss of connection etc.

These are all the realities of being human.

Of course you have to be the kind of person who can be dedicated, committed and not act rashly on a 'bad time'. True committment is when you can have the worst argument and still walk away knowing you will come back together. Either way I think it's a good thing that people CAN walk away. It means you must work harder to keep things working and should never take for granted or not appreciate what you have. Human beings are much more self-reliant nowadays. They don't NEED relationships. However if they choose to form them, they can still walk away from them at any time. It is all about whether 2 people can make the conscious choice to say 'yes I know I might be tempted by someone else, I know sometimes I might hate you, I know sometimes we might not speak for days but I don't care - I want to be with you'.

February 22, 2009

It's not crazy it makes perfect sense. Also men should always avoid trying to be a knight in shining armor. If you rescue a woman from a bad situation sooner or later she will come to the conclusion that she is not really in love with you but was drawn to the safety you represent. Find a woman who has her head screwed on straight already and isn't addicted to drama.

I would also apply this to women who try to change or rescue bad boys or troubled men. It is not for you to help them. THEY help themselves.

February 22, 2009

Yes, it's always possible that you can get screwed over by someone you trust. But that's a given for all relationships whether it be a romantic one or not. You might get screwed over by your boss or your best friend, it's possible. However, it's equally possible (if not more so, depending on the person) that they won't. Basically, you just have to be careful who you trust to start with, but then just trust them. If you love someone enough to want to marry them, you darn sure better feel like you can trust them before you actually do get married. In my opinion, any woman who's likely to divorce you on a whim obviously didn't love you to begin with--maybe she was 'in love' with you, but didn't truly love you--and there should have been plenty of warning signs ahead of time. But hey, that's just my opinion.

February 22, 2009

Yes, it's always possible that you can get screwed over by someone you trust. But that's a given for all relationships whether it be a romantic one or not. You might get screwed over by your boss or your best friend, it's possible. However, it's equally possible (if not more so, depending on the person) that they won't. Basically, you just have to be careful who you trust to start with, but then just trust them. If you love someone enough to want to marry them, you darn sure better feel like you can trust them before you actually do get married. In my opinion, any woman who's likely to divorce you on a whim obviously didn't love you to begin with--maybe she was 'in love' with you, but didn't truly love you--and there should have been plenty of warning signs ahead of time. But hey, that's just my opinion.

Thanks for all the thoughts

Aso for the likelihood that you can always get screwed up, that is fine, normal fact of life, it's just that the consequences of a divorce are much worse than just being "dimped" or "screwed" by your boss etc.. That's how I started thinking about this question after my ex dumped me - in many ways, a divorce is basically a break up that screws you fiancially too (as if being emotionally screwed isn't enough!)

February 22, 2009

Women these days are fickle, backstabbing and conniving. but not all of them are. Some of them just has issues that run so deep that no matter what we do as men, it will end up manifestating in one way or another.

I don't think women are any more fickle, backstabbing, or conniving than in the past. They just have more freedom to behave that way than they did in the past and act out without the negative consequences.

movingonandon,

I see no benefit to marriage myself and would only do it if pressured by the woman and she gave me an ultimatum. And even then, I would only get married if the woman would sign a pre-nup that basically protected me 100% financially.

Why are you so gung-ho on the marriage thing? The risks to me outweigh the benefits by a landslide.

February 22, 2009

It's not crazy it makes perfect sense. Also men should always avoid trying to be a knight in shining armor. If you rescue a woman from a bad situation sooner or later she will come to the conclusion that she is not really in love with you but was drawn to the safety you represent. Find a woman who has her head screwed on straight already and isn't addicted to drama.

No kidding... I wonder why is the prenup considered such a dirty word (only by women though, big surprise !).

I don't trust myself to be able to tell the "warning signs"... I've only had 2 girlfriends plus a couple of hookups, so I can only tell the warning signs I learned from them ...

Plus my philosophy on marriage is that it is above all a clear-headed commitment that two adults who care about each other make, and then *stick with it*, and make it work - like our grandparents did (otherwise what's the point??).

One of the reasons I'm attracted to my current girlfriend in this sense is that she comes from a traditional and somewhat religious family, so it's likely that she'll prioritize marriage and family over "whims". On the other hand, she had almost no exposure to men (1 prior boyfriend, and 1 prior hook up), so I wonder if this means that she'll feel like she missed out on something later one...

February 22, 2009

I don't think women are any more fickle, backstabbing, or conniving than in the past. They just have more freedom to behave that way than they did in the past and act out without the negative consequences.

movingonandon,

I see no benefit to marriage myself and would only do it if pressured by the woman and she gave me an ultimatum. And even then, I would only get married if the woman would sign a pre-nup that basically protected me 100% financially.

Why are you so gung-ho on the marriage thing? The risks to me outweigh the benefits by a landslide.

Exactly...

Well, I'm not gun-ho about marriage, but I like the idea - in theory - I like the image and the stability it projects - fits my worldview (i'd rather be a daddy with a stable home to come to, than date around, and be able to concentrate on other things rather than chase skirt), but, as you say, there are no safeguards left protecting this institution. It's all liability, with NO benefit over cohabitation, which actually depresses me...

February 22, 2009

Am I just ridiculously paranoid?!?

No, I don't think you are being paranoid at all. Getting married is a HUGE leap of faith, for everyone - no exceptions!!

IMO, the only valid reason to get married is if you're convinced that the rest of your life would be better off with them in it, than it would be living without them.

And that's a tall order!

If you have any doubts, you shouldn't get married. End of story.

February 22, 2009

Exactly...

Well, I'm not gun-ho about marriage, but I like the idea - in theory - I like the image and the stability it projects - fits my worldview (i'd rather be a daddy with a stable home to come to, than date around, and be able to concentrate on other things rather than chase skirt), but, as you say, there are no safeguards left protecting this institution. It's all liability, with NO benefit over cohabitation, which actually depresses me...

Yea, the reality is the image tends to be just that - an image. I would not worry as much about the image as the reality.

Remember that marriage nowadays is based upon satisfaction of men and women's feelings (i.e., love, emotional and sexual gratification) more that ever before. It used to be more like a business arrangement (which though far less romantic and idealistic was likely more stable). Any institution so heavily based on a human beings' feelings is bound to be fickle.

February 22, 2009

You can't really trust that to be honest with you. Just the same as a woman can expect the same from the man in the relationship. Marriage may seem a guarantee, an inescapable, impenetrable safe domain where you and your relationship is eternally protected but that simply isn't the case. And I think that's a GOOD thing. For many people in the past, for women and men - marriage became a trap. For some people it still is. We have the freedom to change, to fall out of love, to be able to leave if a marriage turns abusive and that can only be a good thing. A marriage is still a relationship and a relationship is based on FEELINGS and EMOTIONS which are fleeting and mecurial. Just as a womans bout of PMS could turn things on their head one night, so could a mans testosterone.

You have to know you can whether the realities of this world.

The temptation of having sex with or intimate connections with others.

The fact that you will have to compromise and sacrifice certain dreams, ambitions or aspects that otherwise effect your marriage.

The domesticity of daily life - chores etc.

The reality of children.

The potential loss of sex.

Arguments, loss of connection etc.

These are all the realities of being human.

Of course you have to be the kind of person who can be dedicated, committed and not act rashly on a 'bad time'. True committment is when you can have the worst argument and still walk away knowing you will come back together. Either way I think it's a good thing that people CAN walk away. It means you must work harder to keep things working and should never take for granted or not appreciate what you have. Human beings are much more self-reliant nowadays. They don't NEED relationships. However if they choose to form them, they can still walk away from them at any time. It is all about whether 2 people can make the conscious choice to say 'yes I know I might be tempted by someone else, I know sometimes I might hate you, I know sometimes we might not speak for days but I don't care - I want to be with you'.

Yeah, good thoughts. I certainly don't advocate barriers to walking away when people genuinely feel this way. But, I'm just pissed that there are no consequences even if you single-handedly destroyed the marriage.

You can be the greatest father on earth, caring, and loving husband, but your wife can cheat on you and she will STILL walk away with half your estate and probably your kids. That's the part that infuriates me. Sure, everybody makes their choices in life - you feel like screwing around - fine, walk away but with your own pension plan. You feel like "something is missing"? Fine, walk away, I'm not going to pay for your soul-searhing pursuits. etc. You get the idea, and I'm really surprised how the "no fault" divorce ever got traction. Sure, there are many circumstances where nobody is really at fault. But, there are as many when one or both of the partners did something to violate the 'marriage contract', so they should bear the consequences of this, which includes being 100% responsible for themselves. I understand that many of these offenses are difficult to show in court, and that's a whole another story. Still, sometimes, certainly not always, there is fault... If anything, there should be unpleasant court hoops to jump through, such as mandated mediation, contemplation periods, etc., etc., etc...

What is the point of the marriage if it can be terminated on a whim, with no consequences whatsoever... By and large, divorce *is* beneficial to women. So, even if you love and trust a woman, the preverse incentive to walk away when things don't go her way will always be there. It takes a big person not to take advantage of it. Most people (women or men) aren't..

February 22, 2009

marriage nowadays is based upon satisfaction of men and women's feelings (i.e., love, emotional and sexual gratification) more that ever before. It used to be more like a business arrangement (which though far less romantic and idealistic was likely more stable). Any institution so heavily based on a human beings' feelings is bound to be fickle.

I quite agree. This is the way I see it as well.

February 22, 2009

It's a tough call. I don't know now if I would get married again. Find a committed partner, yes. Make a contract yes. But the government imposed rules on the contract of marriage just seem bizarre.

And it's just a relationship, money, emotions. It can get worse. I knew my first marriage was over when I recovered consciousness and she was calmly sitting there. I had to beg for her to get some ice. Ended up having to scream loud enough to attract the neighbors. She was quietly waiting for me to finish bleeding out. That's a wake-up call.

As to commitment. There's generally a mutuality. But not always.

February 22, 2009

Hi there, I really hope this doesn't turn into a bitter thread - in fact, more than anything, I want to see positive thoughts.

Life isn't always a bed of roses. If all you want to hear is the positive thoughts, then think them. Sure, there are alot of positive thoughts out there. If you read Taylor's story, I believe she is one of them.

Stories like that I believe there are some positives. But there are ones that are obvious to me that there are none. So lets take the rest of your post at face value and I'll see if I can stay positive.

So, my question is how do you ever trust your wife in this situation, given that basically one episode of PMS could turn your life upside down...

Well you are talking about a gf/bf relationship. One would have to assume that all of those petty little character flaws would work themselves out and the minute they are ready to get married, that they are mature enough to handle the long standing committment.

This isn't always the case, but I think sometimes people should go through a psychological test before they get married and the "shrink" has say in whether they do or not.

I want to get married, perhaps even to my current girlfriend, but the liability and the risk seems unjustified... Am I just ridiculously paranoid?!?

You are not ridiculously paranoid. Having been married, you are definitely justified in feeling that way.

Thats why you date and try to find that person you feel can handle marriage. Sometimes, your judgement turns out to be bad later on. nothing you can do about that.

February 22, 2009

Remember that marriage nowadays is based upon satisfaction of men and women's feelings (i.e., love, emotional and sexual gratification) more that ever before. It used to be more like a business arrangement (which though far less romantic and idealistic was likely more stable). Any institution so heavily based on a human beings' feelings is bound to be fickle.

Yep, and that's exactly the contradiction - if it is an institution, and if it is to be taken seriously, then it cannot be based *solely* on feelings or moods... Imagine if the content of the US constitution was contingent on the opinion polls!

Sure, feelings lay the foundations for a stable, loving marital relationship. But, once we get married, I would imagine there is an understanding that there is more - a lot more - to this than fleeting feelings (not that they are unimportant, it's just not everything in marriange in my understanding).

February 22, 2009

It's a tough call. I don't know now if I would get married again. Find a committed partner, yes. Make a contract yes. But the government imposed rules on the contract of marriage just seem bizarre.

And it's just a relationship, money, emotions. It can get worse. I knew my first marriage was over when I recovered consciousness and she was calmly sitting there. I had to beg for her to get some ice. Ended up having to scream loud enough to attract the neighbors. She was quietly waiting for me to finish bleeding out. That's a wake-up call.

As to commitment. There's generally a mutuality. But not always.

Wow, this sounds like straight from a Stephen King novel . I hope you're doing fine now.

February 22, 2009

I knew my first marriage was over when I recovered consciousness and she was calmly sitting there. I had to beg for her to get some ice. Ended up having to scream loud enough to attract the neighbors. She was quietly waiting for me to finish bleeding out. That's a wake-up call.

Might also be criminal.

To the OP: Prenup. The marriage contract is as anti-romance as it gets, a good prenup can restore marriage to being a lot more than a business relationship.

February 22, 2009

Thst's IT, I'm never effing getting married:

I just read that ~70% of all divorces are initiated by women (re: credible support for my paranoia). among college educated couples, the percentage is HIGHER.

Another study:

http://www.aarpmagazine.org/family/Articles/a2004-05-26-mag-divorce.html

I found particularly interesting the bit that women are a lot more likely than men to consider the divorce their partner's fault

February 22, 2009

That could merely be a function of women having a lower incidence of avoidant personality issues in intimate relationships. Somebody has to make the evident move and women perhaps have better tools to do it.

Men often suffer failure alone and, besides death, divorce is one of the most traumatic situations that can happen in a man's life, and one which has marked connotations of failure, failure which is public and social. Add to that the tone of this thread where the "norm" is the man's assets and income are ravaged lends even more impetus to retain the status quo.

February 22, 2009

Yep, and that's exactly the contradiction - if it is an institution, and if it is to be taken seriously, then it cannot be based *solely* on feelings or moods... Imagine if the content of the US constitution was contingent on the opinion polls!

Sure, feelings lay the foundations for a stable, loving marital relationship. But, once we get married, I would imagine there is an understanding that there is more - a lot more - to this than fleeting feelings (not that they are unimportant, it's just not everything in marriange in my understanding).

There is nothing wrong with marriage, per se, but there is something definitely wrong with the modern interpretation. IMO the more it becomes about each individuals' feelings (which is the path it is heading), the less stable it will become.

Thst's IT, I'm never effing getting married:

I just read that ~70% of all divorces are initiated by women (re: credible support for my paranoia). among college educated couples, the percentage is HIGHER.

Another study:
http://www.aarpmagazine.org/family/A...g-divorce.html

I found particularly interesting the bit that women are a lot more likely than men to consider the divorce their partner's fault

Here's an interesting article (sort of a point/counterpoint argument) from a few years ago about marriage:

http://www.forbes.com/2006/08/23/Marriage-Careers-Divorce_cx_mn_land.html

It is similar to the argument that was going on in another thread about career women and marriage.

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Q for men: how do you ever trust that your wife is committed to the marriage?

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