jj33 Posted February 19, 2009 Posted February 19, 2009 Apologies meant to post this in the OW forum. I know there are several posters on here for whom things have worked out after a few years of being the OW. However that is typically not the case. In the majority of cases if someone is in an A that drags on, they are very unlikely to leave. I was struck by this the other day when a friend told me how she hooked up with her new partner. They met, they got to know each other. They realized it was something real. For various reasons neither one felt they could leave for a year. So they didnt have a PA but had an EA and during that year, the man's long term gf found out. As soon as that happened they both left and have been living happily ever after for the past 2 years. What I found striking about the situation as opposed to many posted here (you know who you are) is that: there was no oh I love you but I cant leave because xyz oh be with me anyway lets sneak around maybe one day I will see clear to leave there were no lies no poor treatment no disrespect no booty calls and maybe being in touch a few days or weeks later no failure to contact on weekends They said what they meant and they meant what they said and they carried through with it. No drama (well there was drama after they left but thats to be expected) but no drama between them, none of the anguish and angst that accompanies so many affairs. So I will say it again if you are in a PA and you are unhappy. LEAVE. Waiting around for him to realize he would be happier with you is no way to live. Its humiliating and demeaning. No matter how good he makes you feel when you are together.
Owl Posted February 19, 2009 Posted February 19, 2009 How happy did this turn out for the ones that they left?
carhill Posted February 19, 2009 Posted February 19, 2009 Some questions for your friend... Were they mutual relationship supporters? IOW, even with the underlying dynamic, did they actively support each other's primary relationships? They could say "I feel this, but you're committed to xxx and I support you in that commitment. You're with him/her because you care about him/her and I respect that". Did the feelings of the other partners matter? Was there disclosure/honest discourse? Were they consistent in their mutual actions no matter who was present? All interesting parts of the dynamic. I'm not passing judgement, merely relaying questions and inferences I gained from MC. I'm happy that their dynamic worked for them
Spark1111 Posted February 20, 2009 Posted February 20, 2009 Apologies meant to post this in the OW forum. I know there are several posters on here for whom things have worked out after a few years of being the OW. However that is typically not the case. In the majority of cases if someone is in an A that drags on, they are very unlikely to leave. I was struck by this the other day when a friend told me how she hooked up with her new partner. They met, they got to know each other. They realized it was something real. For various reasons neither one felt they could leave for a year. So they didnt have a PA but had an EA and during that year, the man's long term gf found out. As soon as that happened they both left and have been living happily ever after for the past 2 years. What I found striking about the situation as opposed to many posted here (you know who you are) is that: there was no oh I love you but I cant leave because xyz oh be with me anyway lets sneak around maybe one day I will see clear to leave there were no lies no poor treatment no disrespect no booty calls and maybe being in touch a few days or weeks later no failure to contact on weekends They said what they meant and they meant what they said and they carried through with it. No drama (well there was drama after they left but thats to be expected) but no drama between them, none of the anguish and angst that accompanies so many affairs. So I will say it again if you are in a PA and you are unhappy. LEAVE. Waiting around for him to realize he would be happier with you is no way to live. Its humiliating and demeaning. No matter how good he makes you feel when you are together. Yes, jj, I think it is called MATURITY and CONFIDENCE. What killed me about my WS' s affair, is not that he developed feelings for another woman. Afterall, I am a grown up and that can happen at any time in any relationship. He could have said, "Look, I have developed serious feelings for this woman at work. I know this may hurt you, but I think I need to explore them. Let's go to MC and try to figure it all out, because I still love my life with you, but I need to separate while I explore these feelings I have for her." As much as that conversation would have hurt me, I would have so much more respect him today for being honest; for still giving us a shot at repair, and for the freedom to decide if I WANTED to explore other relationships. It is called acting like a MATURE ADULT. It's the lies and deception that smack me of adolescent selfishness and entitlement; it is CONTROLLING because in not telling me, I did NOT have the opportunity to see if there is somone out there I MAY BE BETTER SUITED FOR! It was also UNFAIR AND DISREPECTFUL TO HER to string her along with empty promises of a future together! She and I both LOST almost two years of our lives loving this man. How child-like and selfish a cheater can be to fulfill their own personal emotional needs. How many people are exploited in the process! Shame, shame. Hats off to the couple that handles it in a mature and confident manner. Many may be hurt in their path, but ultimately, I believe, others will come to respect their honesty and integrity in handling their feelings for each other in an adult manner. S**t happens, unfortunately. It is how we handle it that determines the men and woman from the boys and girls.
Author jj33 Posted February 20, 2009 Author Posted February 20, 2009 Its turned out very happily for the ones that left. I didnt ask a lot of questions about it, I didnt even know until recently that they had known each other before. It sounds like when they first met, they were mutual relationship supporters. Once they decided to leave, they were biding their time waiting until they felt they could leave but the timeline was cut short not by a D day as there was no time spent together other than by email, but by one person's partner (neither was married they were living together on a long term basis) questioning the relationship. When she questioned he came clean and left immediately. And the woman left the same day. What struck me was there was no PA. No elaborate EA. They decided what they wanted, and they acted on it. And they didnt lie to their partners when asked if there was some problem in the relationship. Yes they lied to the extent that they didnt leave on day 1 when they decided they wanted to be together but they didnt hang on for their own benefit and self interest. They delayed leaving initially because they were both supporting partners who were changing careers and wanted to wait until the partners were in a position where they could support themselves and continued to support them after they left although they werent legally obligated to do so. I thought they handled it well. Its just so different than 99% of what you read on here. You never read I fell in love we did everything we could to be sure the other person was in a position where they could suport themselves and then we left or I supported them after I left even tho I didnt have to I just thought it was wrong to stay and deny that the problems had become insurmountable. Its unusual because they werent cake eaters. You read about lies and deception and all sorts of other problems. There were very serious problems that I cant get into in both relationships and both of the people who left would have left even if they hadnt met each other. They were both waiting until they could leave without leaving the other person in a position where they would be without a means of support.
KismetGirl Posted February 20, 2009 Posted February 20, 2009 Its turned out very happily for the ones that left. I didnt ask a lot of questions about it, I didnt even know until recently that they had known each other before. It sounds like when they first met, they were mutual relationship supporters. Once they decided to leave, they were biding their time waiting until they felt they could leave but the timeline was cut short not by a D day as there was no time spent together other than by email, but by one person's partner (neither was married they were living together on a long term basis) questioning the relationship. When she questioned he came clean and left immediately. And the woman left the same day. What struck me was there was no PA. No elaborate EA. They decided what they wanted, and they acted on it. And they didnt lie to their partners when asked if there was some problem in the relationship. Yes they lied to the extent that they didnt leave on day 1 when they decided they wanted to be together but they didnt hang on for their own benefit and self interest. They delayed leaving initially because they were both supporting partners who were changing careers and wanted to wait until the partners were in a position where they could support themselves and continued to support them after they left although they werent legally obligated to do so. I thought they handled it well. Its just so different than 99% of what you read on here. You never read I fell in love we did everything we could to be sure the other person was in a position where they could suport themselves and then we left or I supported them after I left even tho I didnt have to I just thought it was wrong to stay and deny that the problems had become insurmountable. Its unusual because they werent cake eaters. You read about lies and deception and all sorts of other problems. There were very serious problems that I cant get into in both relationships and both of the people who left would have left even if they hadnt met each other. They were both waiting until they could leave without leaving the other person in a position where they would be without a means of support. Im not speaking about my own situation, or trying to defend cheaters, or anything like that. And I know that I'll probably be in disagreement with most people on here....but don't you think being just in a long-term relationship with someone, and then being married to someone (with kids, no less), are two very different things? Seems that way to me. Happy for your friends, and all, but I feel like it might have been different had one or both of them been married and had kids with their respective partners. It's alot easier (though don't mis-read, not EASY, but easier) to leave a relationship when you have no family or legal obligations to get past. I've been in long term relationships before and left when it didn't make me happy anymore. That was hard enough. can't imagine how much harder it would be if we'd been married and had a family. Just my humble opinion. I'm sure most will disagree.
Author jj33 Posted February 20, 2009 Author Posted February 20, 2009 Sweetie I hate to say it but you respond to most EVERY thread by defending your own situation. If you are living with someone for 15 years, have children own RE together does it matter if you arent married. I dont think so.
Spark1111 Posted February 20, 2009 Posted February 20, 2009 KG, Harder, yes. More painful, definitely. But more respectful and ultimately, more healing? Absolutly! If we do not treat the SOs in our life, whether it be our spouse, our children, our parents, or our OW/OM with RESPECT, what truly are we doing? Disrespecting the integrity of all those around us. I applaud honesty, getting off the fence, making a decision for future happiness, taking a chance, moving forward with confidence in my choices, whether they fail or succeed. We have only one life to live. As I said to my WS, "I OWN MY CHOICES, and never looked back." There were some very hard times in this relationship. I never thought another man would "fix" it all for me. But I did say to WS, "You apparently developed some serious misgivings. Why did you never tell me? That alone is disrespectful." If I had been as unhappy as he in this marriage, I would not have had an affair, (though I certainly could have used one! LOL!) I would have respected him enough to have said, "This is not working for us. Let's move on." I say this because, as a child of divorce, I know how serious the pain is of having two parents "try" to stay together for the sake of the children. The greatest gift a father can give his children is to LOVE their mother. If he can't do that, then he should walk away with self-respect and kindness, as my father did, and he will still have the love of his children.
KismetGirl Posted February 20, 2009 Posted February 20, 2009 Ok, right, I'm not arguing with anything you said. If someone is unhappy they SHOULD be honest, they SHOULD leave the unhappy relationship, they SHOULDN'T cheat. But you're missing my point. It's easy to look BACK on something, and think, yeah that was a good decision to divorce, or more honest, or most respectful, or the better choice, or blah blah blah. My parents are also divorced, and I can guarantee you that BEFORE the divorce, no matter how much my parents fought (and there was an argument I recall when my mother threw a chair across the room at my father in a fit of anger), BEFORE the divorce I still thought the most horrible thing in the world would be for my parents to divorce. I saw it as the end-all of my family, I was horrified at the idea. Of course, afterwards it worked out for the best, but prior to it happening, it seemed like the most horrible thing that could happen to my family. I dreaded it. So, looking at it from the outside, it's easy to say "sure, he or she should just divorce rather than xyz" BUT, when you are the person who is considering telling your spouse and kids you want to change it all, it's much different to see things rationally. Whether or not that makes it right is not what I'm trying to argue. I'm trying to point out basic human behaviour, and that is not usually rational, moral, just, or any of the above.It's alot easier to look from the outside looking in at someone else, or look BACK on your own situation, and thinking "it should have happened this way", rather than when you are the person who has to make the decision at that moment. Get what I'm saying? It's just that JJ was saying that this couple were so upstanding and moral in how they approached their situation, and I did NOT disagree with that, HOWEVER, I said that , had either of those people been married and with children , I am almost 100% positive that the situation would have played out different. It is VERY rare that a MW/MM who is simply "unsatisfied" with their relationship will just up and leave for someone else, even after considering it for a few months or a year. It usually takes extreme unhappiness or abuse or whatever, which is normally not the case. Generally it seems like just some sort of dissatisfaction with their life that they can't put their finger on, and they take it out in the form of an affair. I'm NOT condoning this, please understand that. I am simply stating my opinion that it is much easier to leave a relationship in which people have no connection to each other in a family and/or financial or legal way, than it is when two people are simply boyfriend-girlfriend, even if they are living together. You know? KG, Harder, yes. More painful, definitely. But more respectful and ultimately, more healing? Absolutly! If we do not treat the SOs in our life, whether it be our spouse, our children, our parents, or our OW/OM with RESPECT, what truly are we doing? Disrespecting the integrity of all those around us. I applaud honesty, getting off the fence, making a decision for future happiness, taking a chance, moving forward with confidence in my choices, whether they fail or succeed. We have only one life to live. As I said to my WS, "I OWN MY CHOICES, and never looked back." There were some very hard times in this relationship. I never thought another man would "fix" it all for me. But I did say to WS, "You apparently developed some serious misgivings. Why did you never tell me? That alone is disrespectful." If I had been as unhappy as he in this marriage, I would not have had an affair, (though I certainly could have used one! LOL!) I would have respected him enough to have said, "This is not working for us. Let's move on." I say this because, as a child of divorce, I know how serious the pain is of having two parents "try" to stay together for the sake of the children. The greatest gift a father can give his children is to LOVE their mother. If he can't do that, then he should walk away with self-respect and kindness, as my father did, and he will still have the love of his children.
Author jj33 Posted February 20, 2009 Author Posted February 20, 2009 Actually my point was that all the excuses that WSs give the OWs (like you KG) who are unhappy with the A dynamic are rubbish. Its very selfish to meander in between 2 relationships and they can only do that because the OW lets them. SOME people find it difficult to leave others dont. the fact that these people were living together rather than married isnt the point. I nmy example the couples had children and lives that were identical to a marriage and they left without all the lies, the drama the stringing along of the OW/OM. The fact that they didnt have a piece of paper binding them to their partner didnt make the relationships any less signficant. Just like a relationship is not less significant if someone doesnt have children. KG, if you werent in the situation you are in, you wouldnt feel the need to defend that patch all the time. At any rate this is the wrong forum for this. It should be in the OW forum.
Owl Posted February 20, 2009 Posted February 20, 2009 JJ, I'm not sure if you quite got the ghist of my question...it worked out well for the ones who left their spouses to be with their affair partner...I'm asking how did it turn out for the spouses that they left behind? Are THEY happy with this whole situation as well? That's the thing...there are always at least three, if not more, people involved...or it wouldn't be an affair. So to determine that "it all worked out for the best", you'd need to have input reflecting that from ALL of the involved parties.
carhill Posted February 20, 2009 Posted February 20, 2009 If the spouses divorced, it's irrelevant. One can't be responsible for the feelings of another for their eternity of existence. Everyone gets hurt. Part of living and being a mature adult is the awareness that life isn't fair, just or any sort of a predictable experience. Anytime someone is left, whether it be within the relationship or with the end of it, it doesn't "work out well" for that person. It hurts like heck. If two people meet, recognize their dynamic, disclose, respect and support the current commitments, later divorce/break up prior relationships and become a couple, they've fulfilled their obligations, IMO. The OP appears to be about that dynamic.
Author jj33 Posted February 20, 2009 Author Posted February 20, 2009 Owl all I know is that the ones who were "left" are with other people. Their lives were not destroyed. Carhill I agree with you. And moreover they never messed each other around which was actually my point. Most of the threads on the OW/OM forum are written by people being seriously messed around saying he doesnt mean it does he? One day he will be mine once he sees the light I just know it. My point was when someone is serious about being with you and cares for you and respects you they dont continue with a relationship dynamic that suits them and hurts you. They stand at a distance until they are in a position to have an open honest relationship with you. Thats what these people did and I thought that was commendable.
Owl Posted February 20, 2009 Posted February 20, 2009 I get what you're saying, although I don't agree overall. I wouldn't call this a "win" situation for everyone involved. If you're married, you meet someone else and begin cheating emotionally and/or physically with someone else, you ARE responsible for the pain that you cause your spouse. If this leads to a divorce that they didn't want/weren't prepared for...then you were the CAUSE of that pain. So while I can see that the two cheaters that got together might feel this was a "win"...I highly doubt that the others that had their lives devestated by this "win" would agree. If my wife had run off and lived with the OM in her case...and they managed to work out a long term relationship together, they might consider it a "win"...although I doubt that I, or our kids, would have agreed.
carhill Posted February 20, 2009 Posted February 20, 2009 If your wife and EA partner had disclosed, respected your marriage and distanced themselves, ending contact, and your marriage, later, upon its own merit or deficiency, had failed, and she later re-established contact with the EA and began a relationship with him, then you still wouldn't have felt like a winner. You lost your marriage and your wife. Knowledge of history merely provides someone to point a finger at. MC taught me to look in the mirror when I do that I'm here to tell you relationship supporting is a healthy thing, for everyone. Move beyond the selfish to embrace the larger dynamic. What if your wife's EA had supported your relationship and encouraged her to re-commit to her marriage and to you? Who would've "won" then? See that smile? Interesting how that works....
Owl Posted February 20, 2009 Posted February 20, 2009 We'll have to agree to disagree, Carhill. In point of fact, her EA did lead to changes in our marriage that were definite improvements over the year prior to the affair. Do I think that it "worked out well" for OM? Nope...but I also feel that he...unlike me...unlike most BS's...KNOWINGLY went into that situation and took that risk. I've considered his feelings in all of this, believe it or not. Sorry if you feel that my viewpoint is "selfish"...I feel that it's actually the opposite...I think that viewing ONLY the one side of the situation and considering that as a measure of "success" is selfish. Again, we may have to agree to disagree here.
Author jj33 Posted February 20, 2009 Author Posted February 20, 2009 Owl we may have to agree to disagree. Life isnt perfect and sometimes relationships dont work out. If a relatoinship isnt working and someone leaves, I am not sure that one person is responsible for the pain the other feels if they acted without malice and in the kindest manner possible given the sitaution. You were fortunate that your marriage survived. Other relationshps dont survive and as in the case of my friend were not meant to survive. But she should not have had to stay to spare her partner the pain of losing her. She should not have had to be a martyr for any longer than she was.
carhill Posted February 20, 2009 Posted February 20, 2009 Sorry if you feel that my viewpoint is "selfish" To clarify, selfish was meant to describe my opinion of the OM, in not being a supporter of your M. I'm assuming, based on your past postings, that he wasn't. This is the distinction I'm drawing with relation to the OP. They supported each other's relationships and made a conscious choice to overrule their emotions and attraction with respect and caring for their committed partners. They beat "selfish". The relationships succeeded or failed upon their own merits or failings. Just so I'm clear, in no way do I think your actions were in any way selfish. Hope that helps!
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