KismetGirl Posted February 12, 2009 Posted February 12, 2009 ....you found out about the affair? I'm curious to know the disparity in reasons a MM or MW may give their BS's as to the reason for their cheating on them (as opposed to what they might have told the OW or OM). Whether it's lack of sex, intimacy, emotional disconnect, whatever it is, I'm curious what reasons you were given, and, did you really believe that was the reason? And a second question: did you "know" they were having an affair before you knew for sure, and if you did suspect, what made you suspect? Was it certain things they did, behaviours changed, caught them in a lie (eg- they said they were going out with the guys when in fact they were elsewhere, etc), or something else? And third....if you had NO idea they were having an affair, and thought the marriage had been going fine, and then finally found out, did you look back and retrospectively realize that you missed really obvious things that should have warned you what was going on, and you just kind of ignored or missed them? Sorry if Im not expressing myself quite as eloquently as normal, but am tirrrrred and had a long day. Am curious to see responses.....
Crestfallen_KH Posted February 12, 2009 Posted February 12, 2009 I'll tell you, but if you're looking for insight into your own situation, it's not going to parallel yours so take it with a grain of salt. 1. He greatly minimized her value and importance in his decision to leave the marriage. He kept telling me he "just wanted to be single" and that he wasn't happy and yes, that was largely my fault. He didn't really give specifics, just spoke in more general terms. He adamantly refused to own up to her being that significant (he later said he was trying to spare me, but he was really trying to spare himself), even when he was moving in with her immediately after we separated. This was his explanation for why he was leaving the marriage. He never gave me a reason for why he was cheating on me and I never asked for one. I think he realized that cheating was his choice, and he didn't blame me for that decision (at least externally). Even in the beginning, I knew she was just another imperfect, flawed human female as I was (i.e., no more special than I was). 2. Yep, I knew within a week. By week two, I was certain and that was when I confronted him. We were very close, and communicated throughout the day, every day. His behavior totally change and became obvious - drinks with her after work, suddenly became secretive about what he was doing, started whining about privacy, talked about her ALL the time, etc. She also tried hard to act like a friend to me. They tried too hard to pretend they were just friends that it was so ridiculously transparent. I caught him in several lies. If he's not a good liar to begin with, he's going to be really, really bad at it and easily caught and the affair will be obvious to her, provided she's willing to accept and/or admit it to herself. 3. Obviously I knew quickly about the affair, but I'll answer this question anyway. Yes, I was absolutely blind to our issues. I knew things weren't great, but they certainly weren't bad. And I had repeatedly asked him if he was ok, what was wrong, but he always said he was "fine." He is a very conflict avoidant individual, so I realize that he was never going to speak up, and I believed that, like me, he would have. Now the OW gets to sit and wonder if things are "ok." Absolutely, I look back and realize that I contributed to the breakdown of the marriage. Obviously the affair couldn't have happened had our marriage been stronger. I'm not sure that was what you really wanted to know, though as you seem more focused on the actual affair and realizations of that, so I'll stop here.
Author KismetGirl Posted February 12, 2009 Author Posted February 12, 2009 I'll tell you, but if you're looking for insight into your own situation, it's not going to parallel yours so take it with a grain of salt. 1. He greatly minimized her value and importance in his decision to leave the marriage. He kept telling me he "just wanted to be single" and that he wasn't happy and yes, that was largely my fault. He didn't really give specifics, just spoke in more general terms. He adamantly refused to own up to her being that significant (he later said he was trying to spare me, but he was really trying to spare himself), even when he was moving in with her immediately after we separated. This was his explanation for why he was leaving the marriage. He never gave me a reason for why he was cheating on me and I never asked for one. I think he realized that cheating was his choice, and he didn't blame me for that decision (at least externally). Even in the beginning, I knew she was just another imperfect, flawed human female as I was (i.e., no more special than I was). 2. Yep, I knew within a week. By week two, I was certain and that was when I confronted him. We were very close, and communicated throughout the day, every day. His behavior totally change and became obvious - drinks with her after work, suddenly became secretive about what he was doing, started whining about privacy, talked about her ALL the time, etc. She also tried hard to act like a friend to me. They tried too hard to pretend they were just friends that it was so ridiculously transparent. I caught him in several lies. If he's not a good liar to begin with, he's going to be really, really bad at it and easily caught and the affair will be obvious to her, provided she's willing to accept and/or admit it to herself. 3. Obviously I knew quickly about the affair, but I'll answer this question anyway. Yes, I was absolutely blind to our issues. I knew things weren't great, but they certainly weren't bad. And I had repeatedly asked him if he was ok, what was wrong, but he always said he was "fine." He is a very conflict avoidant individual, so I realize that he was never going to speak up, and I believed that, like me, he would have. Now the OW gets to sit and wonder if things are "ok." Absolutely, I look back and realize that I contributed to the breakdown of the marriage. Obviously the affair couldn't have happened had our marriage been stronger. I'm not sure that was what you really wanted to know, though as you seem more focused on the actual affair and realizations of that, so I'll stop here. No, no , you answered the question perfectly, thank you, that is what I was curious. I'm not actually trying to find introspection into my own situation, for once (WELL, not completely, anyway) ;-) I'm really just curious to see the trends of what WS's have said to their BS's and about the BS's own observations both during and after D-Day. Everyone is always saying things like "oh i should have noticed this or that..etc etc" but I think it's probably hard to pay attention to every little detail, especially when the WS (like my MM, I guess) is very conflict avoidant and not good at expressing themselves or their concerns about the relationship. I am surprised you seem to think you played such a large part in the disintigration of the marriage though. Sometimes on here it seems like many BS's that respond to my own posts tend to paint the BS as a total victim who really had no control over the problems in the marriage. Which in some cases is true, but surely living with someone you wold realize that SOMETHING isn't right? I guess it's tough. Someone should build a machine that reads people's mindssssss muahahhahah So thanks for answering. I'm sorry to hear what happened, but as you say, he's someone else's problem now eh? Anyone else have input?
Ramrod Posted February 12, 2009 Posted February 12, 2009 Sorry to butt in, this is a priceless gem of wisdom, btw, crest you strike me as a grounded, well-adjusted, intelligent woman who will do just fine without your ex. "Now the OW gets to sit and wonder if things are "ok." " Great stuff, I got a stitch from laughing so hard!
five&dime Posted February 12, 2009 Posted February 12, 2009 I'll tell you exactly what WS said after I discovered her EA because I confronted her in a letter after I discovered, and she responded via letter: 1. Dear BS, Your letter made me cry, but I am hopeful this will end in opening up more dialogue for us. I knew you had seen my writing OM on Sunday and did not know how to address it with you. I had no idea you were so affected by it. I should have said something then and there. I will write this very clearly: I am not having a physical affair with OM or anyone. As I do with my girfriends--"girlfriend 1, "girlfriend 2" and "girlfriend 3", I am getting emotional/friendship needs met with OM. That is the level of relationship I have with him with one minor addition. I talk to him about spirirtual issues since his beliefs are more in line with mine than of those gals, two of whom are complete atheists and the other very Christian. (editorial input - OM's a Buddhist. WS gradually became one though I was clueless to OM's involvement in her fairly sudden conversion. I thought that two-foot Buddha she got two years ago looked kinda cool on the shelf in the library, so I didn't mind. I put beads in his lap. He was a nice addition to the room. He's not there anymore.) 2. No, I didn't know she was involved with OM. 3. No, I didn't miss any obvious signs of her A. OM is from her work. She hid it well. I was blindsided.
Crestfallen_KH Posted February 12, 2009 Posted February 12, 2009 I am surprised you seem to think you played such a large part in the disintigration of the marriage though. Sometimes on here it seems like many BS's that respond to my own posts tend to paint the BS as a total victim who really had no control over the problems in the marriage. Which in some cases is true, but surely living with someone you wold realize that SOMETHING isn't right? Well, being betrayed in this way absolutely changes you as a human being. You are quite literally never the same again. Many BS's seriously consider suicide - it's a violation of you as a woman, a human, a mate, a friend, a provider, a mother - you are violated simply on every single level. It can takes years to heal from an affair. I realized I needed help, and got into therapy immediately. I never wanted to be someone who carried that anger around, like an albatross. I was determined to walk through the pain and come out strong on the other side. Maybe that's why I can look back and be objective about it now. That being said, I absolutely played a role in the demise of the marriage. I did not CAUSE him to cheat - and there is a difference. I didn't get a say as to whether the affair happened, he made that choice on his own, and I think this might be where the distinction doesn't always get made very clearly. And yes, her problem now. And maybe one day, when they're done being caught up in the feeling that they're "so special and unique," she (or he) will discover that they're just as leavable as we all are.
Author KismetGirl Posted February 12, 2009 Author Posted February 12, 2009 Well, being betrayed in this way absolutely changes you as a human being. You are quite literally never the same again. Many BS's seriously consider suicide - it's a violation of you as a woman, a human, a mate, a friend, a provider, a mother - you are violated simply on every single level. It can takes years to heal from an affair. I realized I needed help, and got into therapy immediately. I never wanted to be someone who carried that anger around, like an albatross. I was determined to walk through the pain and come out strong on the other side. Maybe that's why I can look back and be objective about it now. That being said, I absolutely played a role in the demise of the marriage. I did not CAUSE him to cheat - and there is a difference. I didn't get a say as to whether the affair happened, he made that choice on his own, and I think this might be where the distinction doesn't always get made very clearly. And yes, her problem now. And maybe one day, when they're done being caught up in the feeling that they're "so special and unique," she (or he) will discover that they're just as leavable as we all are. Absolutely agreed. Ive never said anyone deserved to be cheated on or CAUSED someone to cheat. That is their choice alone to cheat by using that as a "band aid" for what ails them, but I always thought that a marriage is a partnership, and that if it's not working, in one way or another, it's both people's fault/involvement. And that in no way means either party is a bad person, but I guess it's hard to determine if someone is really the right one for you. Emotions can be so blinding to someone's faults. I'm glad you were able to get through it. I don't think it's ever a reflection of someone as a human being if they are cheated on. There are so many reasons why relationships don't work out and I cant imagine how horrid it must be to trust someone so much only to find out they've lied to your face. No one is perfect. We're all loveable and leaveable.... well, maybe not everyone is loveable ;-) but they do say that there is someone out there for everyone.
Crestfallen_KH Posted February 12, 2009 Posted February 12, 2009 Oh I didn't say that you did, but, believe it or not, some OW not only ascribe to that theory, but voice it regularly. Just as some BS's take no blame for the marriage breaking down, some OW assign ONLY blame to the BS. It's nice of see you come over here to see "the other side." You sound very intelligent and aware - with your eyes open. Good luck to you!
NoIDidn't Posted February 12, 2009 Posted February 12, 2009 1. He didn't say anything much because he was shocked that I caught him. he didn't tell me she was just a friend when I had all the info I needed to prove otherwise. He didn't say she meant nothing to him or was a lapse in judgment. He just looked really calm. I didn't say anything either. I just showed him the evidence. And when he did start talking, he never mentioned any reasons or anything I did. He just said it was over because he was ending it. 2. I didn't know and I didn't suspect. Even after the "I love you but I'm not in love with you" comment one night when we were discussing our marriage. My dad (a serial cheater) gave me insight into what that conversation meant. We were in a bad way, but I never thought he would cheat in a million years. 3. Not really applicable to me because I knew my marriage wasn't fine. We were considering separating to figure things out. But I did ignore the signs, because I didn't know what I was looking for. Maybe I should've guessed it was the girl from his job that we ran into at church that he never mentioned again. But it was a chance meeting and they didn't even know each other at the time. So, I guess I would have gone on not knowing. Every time I spoke to him about my dissatisfaction in our marriage, he said things were "just fine" and we were going through a "phase" - but he was having an EA and was "just" lying and obfuscating. I hope I helped your cause, KG.
Spark1111 Posted February 12, 2009 Posted February 12, 2009 HI KG. After DDay, it became very clear to me that all those business trips and business dinners and business phone calls were about her and I felt like a complete fool. Ah....true love is truly blind. Yes, we had been through rough patch financially and were in a low point in the marriage from all the stress of the past few years. He seemed depressed to me and I begged him to accompany me to counseling. He refused. The new job WAS very demanding but profitable and I supported him whole heartedly because his self=esteem had been so low. Stupid me! It also gave him the perfect opportunity to see her any time he wanted under the guise of business. I was truly unaware. He changed towards me. Distant, critical, argumentative, mean at times. Critical of the kids, his family, everyone. He became very negative and isolating and chose to re-invent himself with his new work colleagues (she was one of them). My efforts to talk to him about what was wrong were shut down. I chalked it up to job stress. Did I grow distant or did he push me away? Hard to tell. Probably both. Was the marraige in need of work? Absolutely! But it takes two to work on a relationship and he had already met her. I couldn't fix it by myself. On DDay, I told him to go be with her. It seemed she was the love of his life and I no longer wanted to a) be with someone so conflicted and b)someone who obviously did not want me. That's when he threw HER under the bus and begged to come home. Now, I feel for her. In therapy I asked him: "Why did you not disclose your feelings for her and ask for a separation? As much as that would have hurt me, I would have respected you far more than today," because it is the lies and deception that are the true heart of betrayal. He replied, "because I wanted both." Not fair to her. Not fair to me. And yes, he tried to minimize it all in the beginning, "just friends and it got out of hand." He also was truly shocked by the pain it caused me. I think in the creation of his negative world, he had convinced himself since I didn't care that much for him, I wouldn't be that upset, and neither had any basis in reality as far as anyone who knows us would attest to.
Spark1111 Posted February 12, 2009 Posted February 12, 2009 ...and that is why I have empathy in my heart for the OW, apparently a rare sentiment on the LS boards, because not only did he minimize her to me, but he minimized me to her. "My wife doesn't love me, she doesn't care what I do as long as I hand over my paycheck. She's all about the money. We'll be together when I reach my financial goals, when my youngest is settled in college, you are the one tht I want, blah, blah, blah (FILL IN THE BLANKS.)
jwi71 Posted February 12, 2009 Posted February 12, 2009 No prob KG...here's my answers. 1) Why did my W cheat. Lonely, neglected which led her to feel worthless. A bit of anger thrown in too. 2) I had NO clue. None. I didn't EVEN suspect it until she skipped our daughters 5th birthday - which was on a Sunday - to go to the office. That's when I KNEW she was cheating - really, who skips their daughter birthday on a Sunday to go to the office...no one. That's how bad the A fog can be. 3) In hindsight..yes. She was spending WAY too much time chatting online in the bedroom and hiding the screen if I came in. She rarely chatted before and then went to every night for HOURS. How I missed it? Too wrapped up in anything else - which is tacit admission that I was disconnect from her. I hope that helps.
reservoirdog1 Posted February 12, 2009 Posted February 12, 2009 And third....if you had NO idea they were having an affair, and thought the marriage had been going fine, and then finally found out, did you look back and retrospectively realize that you missed really obvious things that should have warned you what was going on, and you just kind of ignored or missed them? This was more or less my situation, except that it was more than that. XW had been unhappy on-and-off for most of the marriage and had cheated a number of times. I knew about none of it until we'd been married for seven years with two kids. And that was because she sat me down one night, told me she was miserable and wanted out. I asked if there had been others, and she said yes. With the benefit of hindsight, there were signs I COULD have picked up on, I suppose... but maybe not. She was and is very personable and outgoing, somewhat flirtatious with men, etc. There were a number of guys in our social circle and she was like that a bit with them too, so in the 4 years we'd dated before marrying, I guess I'd become "immune" to it and it just seemed normal. Early into the marriage there was a guy who, outwardly, she became very close friends with. Secretly, she was banging him. I didn't twig to it because (a) he was part of our circle and thus not "hidden"; (b) she didn't really behave much differently with him than she usually did with men (more on this below); © she tried to set him up with my sister, who very quickly decided he was a jerkoff and didn't want anything to do with him. There was one episode that maybe should have twigged. She'd occasionally mention to me that this guy was being a jerk about something. One evening we'd all been at some gathering or other, and he gave us a ride home. In the car, they were bickering about something. I remember saying to her when we got home that the two of them seemed like siblings, the way they scrapped with each other. Little did I know it was a lovers' tiff. She was also a pretty convincing liar... and I was blinded by love. Never again, hopefully.
jj33 Posted February 12, 2009 Posted February 12, 2009 KG Im wondering if you posted this to get more clarity on your situation and if so how it will help? Shes raising 3 small children, her husband works a lot and so far as we know even if he might want to on some level he has said he isnt leaving. Has something changed? How does whether she suspects or not matter to your position with him, unless something has changed? Something would need to change between them to make him want to end the marriage.
Author KismetGirl Posted February 12, 2009 Author Posted February 12, 2009 KG Im wondering if you posted this to get more clarity on your situation and if so how it will help? Shes raising 3 small children, her husband works a lot and so far as we know even if he might want to on some level he has said he isnt leaving. Has something changed? How does whether she suspects or not matter to your position with him, unless something has changed? Something would need to change between them to make him want to end the marriage. It doesn't have anything to do with my situation. It's just curiousity I guess.
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