SoleMate Posted February 9, 2009 Posted February 9, 2009 The WS/MM often DOESN'T just want to use the OW physically (aka "just for sex"). He wants to use her emotionally as well. Of those two ways of using people, I consider the second far crueler and more destructive, in most cases.
KismetGirl Posted February 9, 2009 Posted February 9, 2009 That reminds me of a book wildsoul referred me to, Surviving Your Boyfriend's Divorce. It had a quote in it about divorce not simply being the end of a relationship, but the end of a mini-civilization. You're basically saying the same thing, and are smart to realize it. Clone myself in a parallel universe, that's EXACTLY what I would've wanted, but didn't realize it until you wrote that. I wish those physicists would figure out how to do that Dismantling of a civilization.....I like it. And it's pretty true, most of the time. I always said true love meant diddly squat when placed next to the concept of having to give up your entire way of being (unless your entire way of being involves real emotional and/or physical abuse, which is 99% not the case with most MM's it would seem.) For the life of me I'll never understand why anyone on here thinks packing up and getting a divorce is ever as easy as 1, 2, 3. Like jj said, hard to convince someone they should come be with you, when at the same time, despite how good things could be if you work at it over time ( maybe) you can't really tell them, "don't worry, everything else will stay the same once youre with me!" Cause it probably won't. Not for a while, anyway, if ever. They won't go home to the same house anymore, in all likelihood. If they aren't rich as balls, that's probably a bit of an ego-killer to have to go back to living in some crappy bachelor apartment (or shacked up with you in your crappy single's apartment) while their wives keep the big house they worked hard for. Or, getting to see their kids when a custody agreement says its cool to (depending on the type of xW they have, but still, they don't live with the kids anymore full time.) Or, the looks from former in-laws who can't believe you're divorcing their daughter/sister/friend, what a sh*t you must be! Or the looks from co workers who thought "gee, I thought they were so happy." that's alot for someone to consider, and it seems to me when placed against the very important , yet small-seeming and obscure concept of "true love or happiness" it seems daunting to give everything up for what is essentially an unknown. But that unknown still haunts them anyway. Sex is easy to get if you're halfway attractive and even the least bit charming. But that unknown feeling of possible personal happiness keeps at the back of their minds, and they think, maybe I'll leave, maybe maybe maybe maybe. So maybe I should try to keep her around. Not to be narcissistic or mean about it, but because I think they genuinly care for the OW sometimes and , just like many OW's can't bear the thought of never speaking to the MM again no matter how bad the A dynamic is (myself included), many MM's don't want to accept that they can't keep being cakeeaters until THEY are ready to come to a decision to leave, if ever. It's selfishness and genuine emotion all rolled into a big ball of headaches. And it sucks. And no matter how far you think you've come in getting over someone, if you're posting on this board, chances are you're not as over them as you like to think....or at least that's how I feel in regards to me anyway. I suppose everyone is different....
WalkOnWater Posted February 10, 2009 Posted February 10, 2009 Thanks Walk on Water. Did you like that book? Yes, it was excellent. It's written for women dating separated men and exposes all the pitfalls associated with that. I learned a lot about myself as a separated-but-not-yet-divorced man, and I know to be extremely cautious with R's right now. Women are funny sometimes though. I got a haircut a couple weeks ago, and when my haircutter found out, she immediately started telling me about all these women she knows that she could fix me up with!! Geez, if they only knew what a minefield dating separated men is. For the life of me I'll never understand why anyone on here thinks packing up and getting a divorce is ever as easy as 1, 2, 3. I agree 100%. Too many times I've seen the advice "either go to MC and work on your M, or else D your W or H." It comes across as simple, but I think it's only simple to people who are very black and white about things. I think it's far from simple.
Author jj33 Posted February 10, 2009 Author Posted February 10, 2009 These forums really straightened me out on that. I knew by the time I came here I would never b the OW again but had still had rose colored glasses on to some extent in terms of what it might be like if he left. I wasnt convinced it would work but wanted to believe. Not an easy road. Worth it in the right circumstance but not an easy remedyfor anything.
Dexter Morgan Posted February 12, 2009 Posted February 12, 2009 To you MMs out there. Why after a PA is over do some MMs keep coming back to try to reopen the door? for an easy lay?
Author jj33 Posted February 12, 2009 Author Posted February 12, 2009 Perhaps in some cases Dexter but not in my case. Been none of that in over a year so not so easy....
norajane Posted February 12, 2009 Posted February 12, 2009 For the life of me I'll never understand why anyone on here thinks packing up and getting a divorce is ever as easy as 1, 2, 3. Because we have all seen family and friends divorce. And when the desire to move on is real, you'd be amazed at how easy and quick it is.
u91746 Posted February 13, 2009 Posted February 13, 2009 I might be way off base, but for me it was being able to be my true self in a lie. Does that make sense? In my case, I felt freer to be myself, and truer to myself, in this secret relationship that was a lie. I think she felt that way too. We talked about things openly and honestly, something we were not able to or unwilling to do with our spouses. Ironic, then, that the relationship is a lie. She called it a fantasy. Reality is hard. You cannot be yourself in the real world. As parents of children, with responsibilities, you are more often invested in making others happy than yourself. A relationship like this, is all about you, and you can be true to yourself, selfishly so... Does that make sense?
Author jj33 Posted February 13, 2009 Author Posted February 13, 2009 Thanks u91746. That makes a lot of sense in this situation. He lives in a world where facade is everything, its just what you do with everyone day in and day out, correct, charming witty banter is the order of the day. I move through his world in business but am outside of it socially. He got to be a "normal person" with me, doing normal little things in my normal little world.
KismetGirl Posted February 13, 2009 Posted February 13, 2009 Because we have all seen family and friends divorce. And when the desire to move on is real, you'd be amazed at how easy and quick it is. Really? Lucky for you and your friends and family. Because I haven't seen anyone divorce and be happy about it or think it was easy either before or during. Perhaps they retrospectively looked back on it and look at their lives now and realize it was the best thing and that it wasn't as bad as they thought it would be, but unless they were prior in a horrible, terrible, abusive situation, I have never met ANYONE who looked forward to divorce, or thought it would be easy and a breeze actually going into it, for a plethora of reasons. Unless both parties want the divorce to begin with, I don't see how anyone thinks it's easy. Even if they didn't have any kids.
jasminetea Posted February 13, 2009 Posted February 13, 2009 Its different saying it's easy and saying it's easier than you'd think And can be very quick too, for example, even though my ex H contested the divorce, it was done and dusted in two years. A more extreme example - one of my sisters who'd been married for 12 years had her marriage annulled and that was done and sorted financially, children, everything, in under a year.
KismetGirl Posted February 13, 2009 Posted February 13, 2009 Its different saying it's easy and saying it's easier than you'd think And can be very quick too, for example, even though my ex H contested the divorce, it was done and dusted in two years. A more extreme example - one of my sisters who'd been married for 12 years had her marriage annulled and that was done and sorted financially, children, everything, in under a year. Right....which is exactly what I said. That's its easier than you think, ONCE you have been through it and look back on it. When you are simply contemplating it and havent gone through with it yet, it seems like this big, looming darkness. Like a kid that hates getting shots, because they think the needle will hurt alot, so they will try to avoid it and scream and cry. Finally they do it and it really wasnt as bad as they thought it would be, but that doesnt mean they went into it any easier. It's the FEAR of the divorce that isnt easy. The actual process itself is irrelevant if a person is so scared of a divorce that they wont do it to begin with.
jasminetea Posted February 13, 2009 Posted February 13, 2009 Er no. Since then, because of my own experiences and that of the people I know, I know that divorce is easy and quick if that's what you want to do. Just like everyone else I know over the age of 25.
KismetGirl Posted February 13, 2009 Posted February 13, 2009 Er no. Since then, because of my own experiences and that of the people I know, I know that divorce is easy and quick if that's what you want to do. Just like everyone else I know over the age of 25. If you're telling me that everyone over the age of 25 thinks that divorce is always quick and painless prior to actually going through it themselves, then we will have to agree to disagree.
jasminetea Posted February 13, 2009 Posted February 13, 2009 Oh come on, if someone's in a marriage that's making them unhappy enough that they want out, they know that a divorce is going to be a doddle compared to staying in the relationship.
WalkOnWater Posted February 13, 2009 Posted February 13, 2009 I have to agree with KG on this one, it is definitely not easy. I'm separated and contemplating D right now. I had a meeting w/ my counselor yesterday and we talked about this very thing, about how I want the D, but how hard it is to actually go through with it. I know it will cause emotional trauma, especially to my kids, and I want to minimize that. I think KG's analogy w/ needles is perfect, and I'm hoping she's right and that when all is said and done, it won't have been as hard as it seems it will be right now.
confusedinkansas Posted February 13, 2009 Posted February 13, 2009 I had an A with a MM - 3 yrs ago. He has since divorced. I am now separted from my H (the A is not the reason either of us are not with our spouses) He has a GF now. We have seen each other a few times since my separation - But, he ..even though he complains about the GF to me.. still wants to stay with her & "see where it goes" (they have been together for a year now). After a few brief encounters with him during my separation & the games he wanted to play....I cut him off. Completely - No talking, no nothing. (still love the guy - but during this timeframe, I decided to never cheat ON or WITH anyone again & am standing firm with that decision!!) Anyway, I say all of that because Perhaps men like this are just serial cheaters......(i think my A is one of those kinds of guys) .....they don't care who they are with at the time - be it a GF or a W. The A keeps their heart racing. Keeps them feeling "they still GOT IT"...& they will KEEP doing it..Just a theory
Owl Posted February 13, 2009 Posted February 13, 2009 I'm not sure I'm tracking... Divorce isn't 'easy'...but it's also not that complicated, or typically that long of procedure. I was seriously considering divorce shortly after d-day in my situation. When it appeared my wife intended a long-term seperation (at least one year) to "see where we were at"...I told her point blank that I wasn't going to wait a year for her to decide if she wanted to be married or not. If we were going to be seperated for a year at least, with no true intentions of coming back together...then I was going to file. I scheduled a consultation with a lawyer...and got the lowdown on how divorce worked in my state, what my options were, and what the timeframes typically looked like. In my case, it appeared that we could be divorced as quickly as 60-90 days. The ONLY reason we didn't go down that path was that she found out she didn't need a year to decide whether or not she wanted me in her life...it turned out that it was the realization that what she was doing was garaunteed to lose me was all it needed for her to make a real, long lasting choice. So I don't get it either...if things are soooo horrible, to the point that you're willing to cheat, or to where you feel there's no way to recover...why do you stay married?
Author jj33 Posted February 13, 2009 Author Posted February 13, 2009 Owl I couldnt agree with you more (after my experience with all this) if its so bad then leave. If its not so bad then stay and dont cheat. There is no real excuse. But as long as there are people willing to be second fiddle (or who are just out ofr sex and fun) there will be cheating. The situations where someone inadvertently falls into something that they think is serious is either a reason to leave the marriage ASAP or stay and stop the A. Long term As where the OW is in love and unhappy are something I just dont understand. If the OW stays she is simply making excuses for the MM and waiting for the marriage to end. What an ugly vulture like position to be in. So what if its difficult for him to leave? Its supposed to be... in 99.9% of the cases (spouse in a coma from which they will never recover etc) the reasons for cheating and staying are just a selfish excuse. People with financial considerations, small children who they just cant leave etc are just making excuses to be cake eaters if they are deceiving their spouses so that they can get their needs met. And I put the guy I was with in that category not for his W as she didnt care but for me, I was so silly to accept that for the period of time that I did. So what if he wants it all. That being said, I am sure there are others who will be happy to oblige him.
WalkOnWater Posted February 13, 2009 Posted February 13, 2009 So I don't get it either...if things are soooo horrible, to the point that you're willing to cheat, or to where you feel there's no way to recover...why do you stay married? In my case, I feel there is no way to recover. I don't love my W anymore, and I want to leave. Why do I stay M'd? Or, put another way, what am I waiting for? When we got M'd, it was a joint decision. I want the D to be a joint decision too. I'm hoping my W will soon realize that there's no hope anymore. I actually wish she'd meet someone else and find happiness, and I've even told her this. I also want to give my kids time to adjust to the thought of us living apart before actually deciding to D. I want to let them down softly, not suddenly. I'm sure there are opinions contrary to this, but my counselor agrees and actually was the one who suggested giving them more time to get used to the idea that mom and dad won't be together anymore. Your "do or do not" motto speaks to your view, and I can see why you'd think it should be easy. Instead of wondering why it's not easy, how about simply accepting that it may be easy for some but not for others.
Owl Posted February 13, 2009 Posted February 13, 2009 One thing to remember, my friend. I tell people on here daily that it's simple...not easy...but simple. There's a huge distinction. I don't consider divorce to in ANY possible fashion to be easy. Not at all..I've no doubt in my mind that it's hard as heck to deal with. But the process is SIMPLE. It's not complex...it doesn't require a rocket scientist to walk you through it, nor does it typically require extended lengths of time to accomplish. But the emotional trauma of going through it probably makes it darned HARD to deal with. See where I'm coming from? As far as the D being as joint of a decision as the marriage...I'm sorry, but that's probably not a very realistic expectation when you get down to it. Relationships RARELY end because both parties decide to walk away...marriage or not. They end when the pain of staying becomes to great for one partner to endure any longer. It's very uncommon for both partners to reach that point at the same time. I don't know the ages of your children, so I'm not sure on how "easing" them into it would help or not...ya know?
Author jj33 Posted February 14, 2009 Author Posted February 14, 2009 Walk On Water what you are saying is you want someone else to make the decision for you. You dont want to be the bad guy. I am not minimizing that feeling, but... if out is what you want then dont you owe it to you and your W to tell her? She may be thinking that the marriage can be saved. She may be hoping and praying that this is something you get over. Its never easy to hurt someone we care about or to be the bad guy. But waiting for her to do it could be a long long wait.
KismetGirl Posted February 14, 2009 Posted February 14, 2009 One thing to remember, my friend. I tell people on here daily that it's simple...not easy...but simple. There's a huge distinction. I don't consider divorce to in ANY possible fashion to be easy. Not at all..I've no doubt in my mind that it's hard as heck to deal with. But the process is SIMPLE. It's not complex...it doesn't require a rocket scientist to walk you through it, nor does it typically require extended lengths of time to accomplish. But the emotional trauma of going through it probably makes it darned HARD to deal with. See where I'm coming from? As far as the D being as joint of a decision as the marriage...I'm sorry, but that's probably not a very realistic expectation when you get down to it. Relationships RARELY end because both parties decide to walk away...marriage or not. They end when the pain of staying becomes to great for one partner to endure any longer. It's very uncommon for both partners to reach that point at the same time. I don't know the ages of your children, so I'm not sure on how "easing" them into it would help or not...ya know? Agree with everything here 100%. Only problem, I guess, is that some people have trouble figuring out if the level of "unhappiness" that they are experiencing is REALLY bad enough to leave. They may know they aren't happy, but perhaps worry that if they leave (for example) don't get to live with their kids full time anymore or whatever, that they might be even more miserable than when they started. Granted, LOGICALLY you can be a divorced parent and be happy, but logic doesnt dictate most people's way of thinking when they are feeling very emotional. I think the biggest problem is usually having to decide "is this bad enough, or can I deal with it?" Unless it's a cut-dry situation (abuse, etc) it's not always that easy to determine, is it? But otherwise, yeah, totally agree with what you say. It's just not always a black and white decision, no matter how simple the actual process following the decision. I guess it's a little "cakeeater" where some people figure they can assuage those feelings by having both the family and the outside happiness. That doesnt make it "right", but it's a reason. Anyway, I feel lik we've threadjacked this a little. Apologies JJ.
Author jj33 Posted February 14, 2009 Author Posted February 14, 2009 I might be way off base, but for me it was being able to be my true self in a lie. Does that make sense? In my case, I felt freer to be myself, and truer to myself, in this secret relationship that was a lie. I think she felt that way too. We talked about things openly and honestly, something we were not able to or unwilling to do with our spouses. Ironic, then, that the relationship is a lie. She called it a fantasy. Reality is hard. You cannot be yourself in the real world. As parents of children, with responsibilities, you are more often invested in making others happy than yourself. A relationship like this, is all about you, and you can be true to yourself, selfishly so... Does that make sense? U91746 - one of the things I used to wonder was, if this is the R that allows you to be your true self, then why wouldnt you want to be with the person who allows you to be that way on a full time basis? Wouldnt that in itself be a huge motivation to leave? I dont want to pry, but if your OWs situation had been different and the relationship had continued, it sounds like you might have left to be with her. Is that a fair assessment of your situation?
NoIDidn't Posted February 15, 2009 Posted February 15, 2009 U91746 - one of the things I used to wonder was, if this is the R that allows you to be your true self, then why wouldnt you want to be with the person who allows you to be that way on a full time basis? Wouldnt that in itself be a huge motivation to leave? I dont want to pry, but if your OWs situation had been different and the relationship had continued, it sounds like you might have left to be with her. Is that a fair assessment of your situation? Because, like he said, the relationship is a lie. If he can't have the relationship out in the open like his marriage is, he's not truly being himself. He's just talking about things that he's afraid of speaking about with his W. The marriage is where one can more freely be themselves if the communication is there.
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