I told you he's always honest with me....

[herenow]

So, you have made an assumption that he got married to get a green card based on some bits of information, but that didn't come from him.

 

Answer this: What MM who wants an OW to continue to have sex with him is going to volunteer that he loves his wife?

[herenow]

Well now I don't know about sexual addiction. if that was the case, wouldn't he be screwing around with people other than me? Or, just make his life even easier and go see a prostitute or something? As they say, you pay them to leave at the end (and not to tell your wife, or ask you to hang out with them, or tell you they love you)

 

Well, you are free and he thinks you are safe because you won't tell his wife. Reasons enough to stay with the drug he knows.

[jj33]

He doesnt sound like a sex addict to me. He sounds like a guy who made what he thought was a good decision at the time, taking everything into account. Loads of people marry for practicality as well as love. How many mothers tell their daughters marry a doctor, marry a hedge fund manager (oops until last year..).... and how many of those marriages that were done for the resume in large part fail after just a few years or end up unhappily?

 

Anyway he sounds like he made a decision he thought he could live with, he couldnt, and he feels guilty but lacks the balls to do the right thing and either be faithful or leave.

 

But he doesnt sound like a sex addict. Many many MMs would fit that profile if you think KGs MM does. And I dont think most MMs are sex addicts. They have other issues but not sex addiction.

[herenow]

I hear you Herenow but thats where I disagree. Its not as if I know the man, but I cant believe that KG tho we dont know her know her would be so adamant about this without reason.

 

Before we didnt think there was ANY reason. But it makes sense to me that he is English. People in the US clearly cheat but in Europe its even more rampant and acceptable. Not acceptable but blindeyed.

 

He may be really guilty about the cheating but unable to face the idea that he would be a green card user.

 

Again I concede this may be the worst advice ever posted on LS and I dont like to lead anyone astray. But it seems far far different to me now.

 

I still think she should walk but the whole story makes much more sense to me. It may be a blindspot the same type that got me into an A in the first place.

 

Did you read how she came to the conclusion that he married for a green card?

[herenow]

But he doesnt sound like a sex addict. Many many MMs would fit that profile if you think KGs MM does. And I dont think most MMs are sex addicts. They have other issues but not sex addiction.

 

He is the one that says it's about the sex. That his marriage is great except for the sex.

[jj33]

Yes. I did. Look she knows the situation. There are a lot of really really bad and even some dangerous stories on this forum. This is not one of them. Its dangerous because its interfering with KGs ability to focus on her goals but not dangerous because Mms family is threatening to kill her etc etc etc.

 

I am going to credit KG with having the ability to discern whether she is interpreting this correctly. She knows it doesnt change whether he leaves or not. She is realistic. She knows she needs to walk away.

 

So why not give her credit for being right about this? Shes going to walk anyway. Why disagree with her when she has superior knowledge of the situation. It doesnt change the fact that she needs to leave.

[KismetGirl]

Well, you are free and he thinks you are safe because you won't tell his wife. Reasons enough to stay with the drug he knows.

 

I guess, and not to get into the psycho-babble of sexual addiction, just didn't think he fit that particular model, at all. The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Psychiatric Disorders, Volume Four describes sex addiction, under the category “Sexual Disorders Not Otherwise Specified,” as “distress about a pattern of repeated sexual relationships involving a succession of lovers who are experienced by the individual only as things to be used.” According to the manual, sex addiction also involves “compulsive searching for multiple partners, compulsive fixation on an unattainable partner, compulsive masturbation, compulsive love relationships and compulsive sexuality in a relationship.”

 

The guy may look like a taller, English version of Ryan Phillipe, but he isn't very confident in his ability to attract women, is generally quite amazed that "someone that looks like you would go for me" and is actually pretty shy. If I hadn't told him straight out that first night that I thought he was really hot in my drunken babble, I doubt he would have kissed me.

 

Anyway this was mildly off topic, just didnt think the "sex addict" model really fits here.

[jj33]

Herenow have you ever been the OW? Its a defense mechanism. Its his way of telling himself that he is not endangering his marriage (tho of course he is). Its what a lot of men say when they dont want to leave their Ms. Not always sometimes its true but often its a coping mechanism.

 

I know I will get flamed for that but I am going out now so have at it.

[jwi71]

That he's being an idiot. That if he really loves his wife and is happy with her he wouldn't be cheating on her for four years. That if he really loves her that much he should be working on his marriage instead of running to me. That he's hurt me inconceivably over the last four years and that the only people he ever says he fears hurting are his family when they don't even know what's going on. That what he's doing isn't fair.

 

I don't know. Any of teh above. All of the above?

 

Compartmentalization.

 

Does he love his W? You bet. And when this thing gets discovered - you will be thrown under the bus so fast your head will spin. You know this as over the holidays he got worried about being caught, put you on hold and then, when the coast was clear, returned. You also know this because he TOLD YOU SO.

 

However, YOU also have a compartment in his life. The hidden, forbidden great sex thing. The validate him thing.

 

And in ordinal rank, YOUR compartment falls behind his kids, his W, himself, his job, his parents, siblings...placing you about what place - 10th? 11th?

 

How can HE cheat? How can HE betray his family? CHARACTER FLAW. And a deep serious one.

 

He is NOT a good, well intentioned man who made a mistake. I'll not repeat my post from last night - but he HAS MAJOR ISSUES.

 

So do YOU KG.

 

You are beginning to sound like Glenn Close in Fatal Attraction. Really, I'm not saying this to be mean or hateful or cruel - but the similarities are eerie.

 

"How can he NOT love me?"

"How can he not understand I am better than her?"

"Do you think they still have sex?"

"Why can't he see the light?"

"He can't love them and be with me and since he is with me, he doesn't love them"

"It must be love because he was with me for years before having sex"

"He only stays for the kids"

 

OBSESSION.

 

There is a powerful and twisted dynamic going on. You validate him and he OWNS you. Its the simple truth. Over time you have invested and lost so much of YOURSELF in him - he OWNS you. You do NOT even control your own thoughts and actions. He is always on your mind. And you CANNOT stay away.

 

He WILL never treat you any better than now. After four years he has conditioned you to accept it. And you do.

 

You are not obligated to answer this and I am not entirely comfortable with asking. Have you told your shrink (I cannot spell Psychiatrist so I say shrink - its also quicker- no slight intended) the whole truth of this A? Does he or she know EVERYTHING?

 

Because I cannot help you. I think I understand many of the dynamics in play here, but I am NOT qualified to provide the help you need. And the issue is your refusal to accept the situation outside of your narrow wants and desires. You REFUSE to accept what even your PoS MM tells you! Always keep defending your choice to stay. Always defending your A.

 

Tell your shrink EVERYTHING as I think you are sugarcoating it - or omitting some aspects.

 

This isn't a judgment KG - crap, I go to IC twice a month and MC once a month. No slight on needing help working thorough issues - that would be hypocritical of me!

 

Find yourself.

[KismetGirl]

So, you have made an assumption that he got married to get a green card based on some bits of information, but that didn't come from him.

 

Answer this: What MM who wants an OW to continue to have sex with him is going to volunteer that he loves his wife?

 

Because according to what I've told him, he can be totally honest with me about everything and it doesn't matter because I've told him Im not asking him to leave his wife, ever. He can say all those other good things about her, or that he basically doesn't intend to leave her, so why not tell me he loves her? What's so hard about that if its true?

[herenow]

Yes. I did. Look she knows the situation. There are a lot of really really bad and even some dangerous stories on this forum. This is not one of them. Its dangerous because its interfering with KGs ability to focus on her goals but not dangerous because Mms family is threatening to kill her etc etc etc.

 

I am going to credit KG with having the ability to discern whether she is interpreting this correctly. She knows it doesnt change whether he leaves or not. She is realistic. She knows she needs to walk away.

 

So why not give her credit for being right about this? Shes going to walk anyway. Why disagree with her when she has superior knowledge of the situation. It doesnt change the fact that she needs to leave.

 

Oh, I agree with you 100% that she need to walk away, but I also feel that she needs to look at the reality of what he is. Like I said, I don't want her pain to be in vain. All I want for KG is for her to realize that as much as it hurts, he is telling her the truth and she should take it at face value.

 

There are no excuses for what he is doing. I don't really care why he got married, the fact is that he stays married. Why, because that is what he wants to do. As long as KG is excusing his behavior, she isn't facing reality.

 

Saying that he says with his wife out of some duty because she married him so that he can stay in this country, gives him justification for doing something that is harmful to both women.

 

He is to blame, not his situation. Does that make sense?

[herenow]

I guess, and not to get into the psycho-babble of sexual addiction, just didn't think he fit that particular model, at all. The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Psychiatric Disorders, Volume Four describes sex addiction, under the category “Sexual Disorders Not Otherwise Specified,” as “distress about a pattern of repeated sexual relationships involving a succession of lovers who are experienced by the individual only as things to be used.” According to the manual, sex addiction also involves “compulsive searching for multiple partners, compulsive fixation on an unattainable partner, compulsive masturbation, compulsive love relationships and compulsive sexuality in a relationship.”

 

The guy may look like a taller, English version of Ryan Phillipe, but he isn't very confident in his ability to attract women, is generally quite amazed that "someone that looks like you would go for me" and is actually pretty shy. If I hadn't told him straight out that first night that I thought he was really hot in my drunken babble, I doubt he would have kissed me.

 

Anyway this was mildly off topic, just didnt think the "sex addict" model really fits here.

 

OK, no problem let's drop the addiction thing.

[herenow]

Because according to what I've told him, he can be totally honest with me about everything and it doesn't matter because I've told him Im not asking him to leave his wife, ever. He can say all those other good things about her, or that he basically doesn't intend to leave her, so why not tell me he loves her? What's so hard about that if its true?

 

Because now he knows that you love him and that makes it more complicated for him

[2sunny]

That he's being an idiot. That if he really loves his wife and is happy with her he wouldn't be cheating on her for four years. That if he really loves her that much he should be working on his marriage instead of running to me. That he's hurt me inconceivably over the last four years and that the only people he ever says he fears hurting are his family when they don't even know what's going on. That what he's doing isn't fair.

 

I don't know. Any of teh above. All of the above?

 

this is good honesty Kismet! now we're getting somewhere...

 

what about what YOU want for YOUR happiness? seems your wants and needs have gotten lost along the way... keep yourself as the priority and you will know what's best for you to be safe, happy and healthy. don't expect others to do this for you - you need to do this for yourself.

[KismetGirl]

Compartmentalization.

 

Does he love his W? You bet. And when this thing gets discovered - you will be thrown under the bus so fast your head will spin. You know this as over the holidays he got worried about being caught, put you on hold and then, when the coast was clear, returned. You also know this because he TOLD YOU SO.

 

However, YOU also have a compartment in his life. The hidden, forbidden great sex thing. The validate him thing.

 

And in ordinal rank, YOUR compartment falls behind his kids, his W, himself, his job, his parents, siblings...placing you about what place - 10th? 11th?

 

How can HE cheat? How can HE betray his family? CHARACTER FLAW. And a deep serious one.

 

He is NOT a good, well intentioned man who made a mistake. I'll not repeat my post from last night - but he HAS MAJOR ISSUES.

 

So do YOU KG.

 

You are beginning to sound like Glenn Close in Fatal Attraction. Really, I'm not saying this to be mean or hateful or cruel - but the similarities are eerie.

 

"How can he NOT love me?"

"How can he not understand I am better than her?"

"Do you think they still have sex?"

"Why can't he see the light?"

"He can't love them and be with me and since he is with me, he doesn't love them"

"It must be love because he was with me for years before having sex"

"He only stays for the kids"

 

OBSESSION.

 

There is a powerful and twisted dynamic going on. You validate him and he OWNS you. Its the simple truth. Over time you have invested and lost so much of YOURSELF in him - he OWNS you. You do NOT even control your own thoughts and actions. He is always on your mind. And you CANNOT stay away.

 

He WILL never treat you any better than now. After four years he has conditioned you to accept it. And you do.

 

You are not obligated to answer this and I am not entirely comfortable with asking. Have you told your shrink (I cannot spell Psychiatrist so I say shrink - its also quicker- no slight intended) the whole truth of this A? Does he or she know EVERYTHING?

 

Because I cannot help you. I think I understand many of the dynamics in play here, but I am NOT qualified to provide the help you need. And the issue is your refusal to accept the situation outside of your narrow wants and desires. You REFUSE to accept what even your PoS MM tells you! Always keep defending your choice to stay. Always defending your A.

 

Tell your shrink EVERYTHING as I think you are sugarcoating it - or omitting some aspects.

 

This isn't a judgment KG - crap, I go to IC twice a month and MC once a month. No slight on needing help working thorough issues - that would be hypocritical of me!

 

Find yourself.

 

Well now, that's a little bit of a stretch. I dont think Im anywhere near driving to his house and putting a bunny on the stove. If I wanted to go psycho on him I could have done that ages ago. I know his address his house phone number, hell, i think i might have his wife's cell phone number somewhere cause for some idiotic reason he called me from it once when his wasnt working like 3 years ago. I may be crazy, but Im not psycho. Sorry, just a little mental humour for you....

 

Anyway, I dont know if its because I work in mental health services, but I find that Im often a very difficult patient for most therapists/psychiatrists. I know alot of the tricks and things they use, I know alot of what they are going to say to me before they say it to me. I think Im pretty forthcoming with them about the situation, though to be honest I may forget to include all details as I invlude them here, because its easier to see what youre missing when its typed out in front of you and you can read it before you "submit".

[jwi71]

Well now, that's a little bit of a stretch. I dont think Im anywhere near driving to his house and putting a bunny on the stove. If I wanted to go psycho on him I could have done that ages ago. I know his address his house phone number, hell, i think i might have his wife's cell phone number somewhere cause for some idiotic reason he called me from it once when his wasnt working like 3 years ago. I may be crazy, but Im not psycho. Sorry, just a little mental humour for you....

 

I hope you recognize how that picture can be painted of you. And, I think you are right - not psycho or you would have gone off on him earlier. I don't know why I didn't deduce that on my own.

 

Anyway, I dont know if its because I work in mental health services, but I find that Im often a very difficult patient for most therapists/psychiatrists. I know alot of the tricks and things they use, I know alot of what they are going to say to me before they say it to me. I think Im pretty forthcoming with them about the situation, though to be honest I may forget to include all details as I invlude them here, because its easier to see what youre missing when its typed out in front of you and you can read it before you "submit".

 

Then here's the thing - you aren't ready for therapy.

If you go in playing games, then you are wasting your time and money.

And by playing games I mean since you have good idea of where the T wants to go, you "head him off at the pass". OR answer in ways to guide his evaluation to a conclusion YOU want.

 

In any case, its NOT therapy. Just an illusion.

 

You go into therapy WANTING to CHANGE. Wanting to "fix" what is "wrong". And if you sugarcoat or withhold or steer the therapy to an outcome you WANT - its a waste of time.

 

Drop your defenses. Stop HIDING. Stop RUNNING AWAY from YOU.

Therapy is HARD. Its the hardest thing I have ever done. Period. But the only way to make progress is to be open - to face the "dark places". To see the "ugly" you.

[serial muse]

Because according to what I've told him, he can be totally honest with me about everything and it doesn't matter because I've told him Im not asking him to leave his wife, ever. He can say all those other good things about her, or that he basically doesn't intend to leave her, so why not tell me he loves her? What's so hard about that if its true?

 

KG, you know the answer to those questions. Of course you do. And I'm quite sure he knows you well enough to be able to gauge your emotional reactions to the things he says to you.

 

He doesn't want to end it with you and I'm sure he doesn't really want to hurt you, at least not actively (passively, of course, he already is). Therefore, he won't say the things that he knows might be a dealbreaker, because he can easily guess how you'd feel about it and what'll happen and he doesn't want to go there. What's so hard about that?

[awkward]

KG you seem like the type of person who needs to have answers before you can even think about closure. Why don't you just ask him? Just flat out ask him and quit guessing.

 

He didn't tell me that. I read his personnel file when we were working together

 

KG: Did you marry BS so you could stay in the country?

MM: ?

Because according to what I've told him, he can be totally honest with me about everything and it doesn't matter because I've told him Im not asking him to leave his wife, ever. He can say all those other good things about her, or that he basically doesn't intend to leave her, so why not tell me he loves her? What's so hard about that if its true?

 

KG: Are you IN love with your wife?

MM: ?

 

That he's being an idiot. That if he really loves his wife and is happy with her he wouldn't be cheating on her for four years. That if he really loves her that much he should be working on his marriage instead of running to me. That he's hurt me inconceivably over the last four years and that the only people he ever says he fears hurting are his family when they don't even know what's going on. That what he's doing isn't fair.

 

I don't know. Any of teh above. All of the above?

 

KG: If you truly love your wife like you say you do, why have you been cheating on her for four years with me?

MM:?

 

KG: Why did you pursue a relationship with me for years before it even turned sexual?

MM:?

 

KG: If you are having an affair there is something missing... something broken. Why aren't you working on your marriage and trying to fix the problem?

MM:?

I just want to point out to you KG that he doesn't have to work on his marriage. In fact, you are helping him stay in the marriage.

KG: Do you know that you are hurting me inconceivably? Over the last four years all you have ever cared about hurting is BS and your children and they don't even know what's going on. What about ME and MY pain?

MM:?

KG: What you are doing to me is not fair. You know that I am IN love with you. Why do you keep coming back knowing how much pain I am in because of you and our relationship?

MM:?

 

If I was your best friend, I would ask you to gather all the evidence of the affair. I would meet with BS and as gently as possible explain to her that her husband is having an affair. *oxymoron*

 

Why would I do this? Because if I was your best friend, I would care more about you than you do yourself. I would see that his wife HAS to know for your pain to end. You can't start to heal until you let go. His wife is the one holding all the cards in your relationship and she doesn't even know it.

[jj33]

Youre kidding right? His W doesnt hold the cards.

 

The relationship is causing KG pain but she is in charge of and responsible for herself. Without going into the someone should or shouldnt tell the BS, that is just very wrong in my view.

 

Lets not make KG into a victim here. Being in an A if you arent lied to about marital status is a volunteer position. KG needs to find the strength to walk away. Making the BS the focal point because she "holds the power" is not the way to do it.

 

MM decides if he pursues KG - not his wife

 

MM decides if he stays in teh marriage, not his wife.

 

KG decides if she continues to see MM, not MM not his W.

 

Am I missing something here? Everyone is responsible for their own actions, absent diminished capacity.

 

And no Herenow I am not excusing his actions because of the green card issue I am only saying KGs reaction to the whole thing makes more sense.

 

We all agree KG is a bright woman lets give her a little bit of credit shall we?

 

We are cyber people giving advice. To say she should walk away is one thing to tell her she doesnt have good reason to believe what she believes based on the facts she has reported to us on a very public forum, now that we know there is more to the story than she originally posted? Personally Im not going there.

[Owl]

EXACTLY.

 

That's why I struggle with KG's constant state of anger and upset.

 

She's NOT a victim here, and I don't understand why she continues to act as though she feels that she is.

 

This is all in HER control. Every bit of it.

[herenow]

I think we all agree that KG should walk away. Not because of what the MM said or did or is. Not because of anything that wife has done or said or is. But it is what is best for KG and I think we all can agree on that.

[2sunny]

if you need answers before a decision is made - you may be looking for information he's not capable of delivering. it seems he may not be a man that even wants to process any of those thoughts - much less the conclusion the thought process will deliver.

 

hence, his constant way of manipulating you by not being very good at communication. (remind me again - what's attractive about that quality?)

 

all he knows is that something has been missing at home and you fill the void FOR HIM. what does this do for you that's positive for your future?

 

yes, i want the best for you - you seem like a reasonable and bright gal... just lousy circumstances you are in - that can be changed by YOU!

 

you deserve more than you are allowing for yourself right now. even to be alone for a while is better and healthier than to sit there wondering why this man won't/can't give you more.

 

peace of mind is worth A LOT! let him go and move on to happier days. you will heal - when you are in a healthy, happy state of mind - you will attract the same in a man of honor and integrity.

[jj33]

Owl, without speaking for KG, as she is perfectly capable...

 

I do understand. I wasnt on LS when I was in the A. But I think most OWs that fall in love with MMs who arent leaving feel that way at one point or another, despite the fact that we are respsonbiel for our own actions. KG is just very articulate and honest about it in a way the rest of us are not.

 

And she is not ready to leave or maybe today she is. We can only hope so for her sake.

[awkward]

Youre kidding right? His W doesnt hold the cards.

 

The relationship is causing KG pain but she is in charge of and responsible for herself. Without going into the someone should or shouldnt tell the BS, that is just very wrong in my view.

 

Lets not make KG into a victim here. Being in an A if you arent lied to about marital status is a volunteer position. KG needs to find the strength to walk away. Making the BS the focal point because she "holds the power" is not the way to do it.

 

MM decides if he pursues KG - not his wife

 

MM decides if he stays in teh marriage, not his wife.

 

KG decides if she continues to see MM, not MM not his W.

 

Am I missing something here? Everyone is responsible for their own actions, absent diminished capacity.

 

And no Herenow I am not excusing his actions because of the green card issue I am only saying KGs reaction to the whole thing makes more sense.

 

We all agree KG is a bright woman lets give her a little bit of credit shall we?

 

We are cyber people giving advice. To say she should walk away is one thing to tell her she doesnt have good reason to believe what she believes based on the facts she has reported to us on a very public forum, now that we know there is more to the story than she originally posted? Personally Im not going there.

 

While I can completely understand your anger in my statement, I wasn't kidding. His wife has the power to end this relationship. Something MM nor KG can unfortunately seem to do. Do I believe that KG doesn't have the power? No I don't. Of course she has the power to do it. She refuses to wield that power. I believe that the BS wouldn't think twice about wielding her power.

 

I agree that KG needs to gather the strength to end this relationship, I'm just not sure that she will. I feel like next weeks the thread topic will be something like "well he came over for coffee and one thing led to another...".

 

If he would have told me, even ONCE, just tell me ONE TIME "I am in love with my wife" I would walk away, no questions asked. Not ONCE has he said this.

 

This seems to be the only deal breaker for KG. If MM tells her he is IN love with BS she will walk away. If MM want's to continue to be with KG, I don't think that telling her this would be in his best interest. I'm sure we can all agree that MM cares more about his interests than KG's. Plus there is the added fact that if he did tell her this she would tell herself that not only is he lying to her but is lying to himself as well.

 

I agree that KG isn't a victim here nor am I trying to make her out to be one. She cares more about MM than she does herself. MM cares more about MM than KG. I just don't see this ending until something outside of their relationship forces it to. Does KG even want this to end?

 

I don't really have much to say about the whole green card issue. Yes there is a chance that he married out of convenience and it wouldn't surprise me in the least. But without all the facts, I don't know. We know more to the story, but do we know the whole story? I don't know if he used his wife or loves his wife. I guess only MM knows that. I don't see how it really matters, yet to KG it does.

 

As for telling BS, I have mixed feelings. I don't think it is a black or white issue and think in some circumstances in warranted. Like in this one where the OW is in pain, it is effecting her life, and she chooses(refuses) not to walk away. Like I said, if I was her friend and cared about her I would do everything I could to see it end. And if that meant telling the BS I would do it.

 

All of us want KG to get out of this unhealthy relationship. I have never been an OW so my perspective is skewed. You might think that I am way off base, I probably am. Your perspective is probably better. Mine is more from a friend that doesn't understand the affair dynamics, but wants to help. I hope something I have said in this thread helps. If not, WTF am I doing here KWIM?

 

I hope KG takes the advice that everyone here has given her and leaves.

[jj33]

I hear what you are saying Awkward.

 

How can any MM tell the OW I am in love with her but I hate our sex life... its never going to happen in a month of sundays unless he knows the OW doesnt want him to fall in love with her (e.g. if both are married or shes made it clear that is against the rules).

 

An unavailable man, emotionally or otherwise, is unavailable. It doesnt matter if a man is gay, simply not interested, or married emotionally retarded, or madly in love and some of the above. It all comes down to the same thing. her needs arent being met. And she is losing her focus at a critical point in her life.