Author mc1 Posted February 2, 2009 Author Posted February 2, 2009 He is an ADULT; she is a drug-addicted teenager! How was SHE using HIM??? Why are you blaming the victim here? She came to your home for help, and your husband was too selfish, too immature, and too unethical to keep his problems and his d*ck to himself! Why is it that you are glossing over this? Why do you want to blame a troubled teenager instead of placing the blame squarely where it belongs, on your husband? You are ENABLING him in his predatory behavior by not coming down hard on him for taking advantage of a girl who clearly cannot take care of herself. Why do you two need to be married to earn your income? Were you accepting money for this girl's care? Does her sister know what went on in your "safe" house? Are you sure it's even "technically" legal? If she were entrusted to your care under some legal program, like a foster-care program, then his sister could very well press charges for his behavior. We were not being paid for her care, although we are paid to care for other youth. They are under constant supervision and any staff member is never alone with one of them unless there's a camera on, and that is rarely done. I am not worried about anything happening with any of them and trust that my husband can still be professional in his job. I don't see myself as enabling him or saying anything he did was okay, I blame both of them - blaming it all on him would be enabling her. They are both at fault. It's more his fault than hers, but neither of them is an innocent victim.
OWoman Posted February 2, 2009 Posted February 2, 2009 We were not being paid for her care, although we are paid to care for other youth. Does your employer know that your H's idea of "care" is to have sex with youth? Would they want to know? Since you DO know, is it not your duty to advise them of this critical factor so that they can decide whether he's actually suited for continuing in that job or not?
Author mc1 Posted February 2, 2009 Author Posted February 2, 2009 Not so. They may be immoral - depending on your moral framework - but most As are not unethical. An A would be unethical under certain conditions only, where a code of conduct (implicit or overt) exists governing professional or practitioner behaviour - such as between a doctor and a patient, between a lawyer and a client, between a teacher and a pupil, or in a counselling or other therapeutic type situation. Such as this. This was (or wasn't, depending on your moral stance) immoral. But far more disturbing, it was unethical. Your H took advantage of a teenager with compromised judgment, who was in need of care and who looked to him for support and guidance. That is inexcusable. And, depending on her frame of mind at the time, it may also be illegal (technically or otherwise). I don't know which country you live in, but most countries have laws which include having sex with someone whose abilty to say no is clouded by drink or drugs as statutory rape. Her age being only just past legal consent would be deemed an aggravating factor. If I was this girl's legal guardian, I'd nail your H so hard he'd be lucky to escape a custodial sentence. I'm not sure if that's related to the job-you-both-love or if you were caring for her in some extra-mural capacity; either way, I feel that that kind of lackof ethical integrity needs to come to the attention of his employer so that they can make an informed decision as to his continued suitability for whatever position he's holding. I really don't understand why you're supporting him on this. Would you hold the girl down if he wanted to rape her in front of you? What he's done is little different, yet you're shrugging it off as if it was merely consensual sex with a adult woman he met in the park out walking her dog. She had been drug free for at least 6 months, not currently under the influence of anything, her family just wanted to keep her away from her old friends. I'm not sure what I said (other than that I wanted to make our marriage work) that makes everyone assume that I'm okay with what he did or am letting him just get away with it. Yes, anyone deserves someone better than he's been lately, but I feel like he can be that better person, so why start over with someone else instead of at least trying to make things work with the person I'm already married to?
Author mc1 Posted February 2, 2009 Author Posted February 2, 2009 Does your employer know that your H's idea of "care" is to have sex with youth? Would they want to know? Since you DO know, is it not your duty to advise them of this critical factor so that they can decide whether he's actually suited for continuing in that job or not? You are twisting the situation. There isn't an excuse for what he did, but it was not the same as sleeping with one of the kids at work. If I felt there was any reason for them to be at risk, we would leave. I don't feel any need to tell them the details, but our supervisor, who has become a good friend to both of us, does know part of what has been going on.
Trimmer Posted February 2, 2009 Posted February 2, 2009 We were not being paid for her care, although we are paid to care for other youth. They are under constant supervision and any staff member is never alone with one of them unless there's a camera on, and that is rarely done. Why are all those policies in place? Do you suppose it's at least partly because the forming of inappropriate relationships in the caregiver environment is SO unacceptable and SO potentially damaging as to be grounds for termination of the caregiver relationship? I am not worried about anything happening with any of them and trust that my husband can still be professional in his job. On what do you base that trust? The presence of other personnel and the watchful eye of the cameras? I guess that works. Certainly not on past experience... I don't see myself as enabling him or saying anything he did was okay, I blame both of them - blaming it all on him would be enabling her. They are both at fault. It's more his fault than hers, but neither of them is an innocent victim. I'm not going to argue as to her part in this, because my whole point is that that distracts from the real issue. Irrespective of her complicity or blame, every time you respond to comments about your husband's behavior with "Yes, but she..." you are mitigating his responsibility for his own actions. We don't need to pass verdict on whether or how much she was to blame; she may be a "Bad Person," she may have begged him for sex - none of that mitigates the depth to which he betrayed your marriage and his moral responsibility to keep her at arm's-length as he was in a helping role. I am curious, and I don't want you to compromise your anonymity, but can you describe, in general terms, the reasoning and philosophy behind the requirement that you be married to perform your job? Is it to provide the appearance of groundedness, stability, family values, etc.? Is it important to actually have those characteristics, or just to have the appearance for marketing purposes?
norajane Posted February 3, 2009 Posted February 3, 2009 Yes, anyone deserves someone better than he's been lately, but I feel like he can be that better person, so why start over with someone else instead of at least trying to make things work with the person I'm already married to? Until your husband acknowledges that his choice in whom to have an affair with was unethical and unconscionable, and that he is not fit to be any kind of therapeutic resource for kids in trouble because he cannot exercise good judgment and control over himself with girls entrusted into his care - AND SEEKS HELP for his problem - saving your marriage should be the least of your concerns. WHAT makes you think that he can be a better person? He continues to contact this girl - his soulmate!!! - and can't even tell you when he'll stop. So what is he doing to show you that he can be a better person?
desertmoon Posted February 3, 2009 Posted February 3, 2009 Although I don't care too much what happens to her, if he were to stop talking to this girl I have no doubt that she would get back into her involvement with drugs and likely end up dead. She came to live with us partially to get away from drug issues and he's helping keep her sober. He's shown me proof that he's working on getting her to rely on someone other than him. My suggestion for contact is that he never initiate it and only talk to her about her progress in finding someone else to talk to about her issues, he's working on trying to get her to see a therapist, and that all of this contact would be with me there. Clearly this woman has major issues---and your husband took advantage of this troubled woman and you allowed it to progressed by not saying anything when you knew that an emotional affair was going on....does that not bother you? Your husband must not contact the woman. You refer that woman to an organization that could help her and cut all ties.
2sunny Posted February 3, 2009 Posted February 3, 2009 are you in the US? where i live it is against the law to have sex with someone under the age of 18. either way, your husband took advantage of an extremely vulnerable gal and should be held accountable. for you to gloss over this and justify it in your mind is a disservice to anything moral. where are your moral boundaries? and why are your boundaries so loose? is it a loose boundary designed so that you don't have to share this information if it might embarrass you or one you love (your husband)? if so, you need to reassess what is right and what is wrong. his actions show that everything is wrong and you have only justified bad behavior. how's this all working out for you? as i notice - he's still justifying bad actions and behavior because he is still unwilling to allow you to understand how anything is going to change. if nothing changes - nothing changes! i bet he's still seeing her - even if he's saying he's not. now.... what are you going to do about it? YOU are the only one can change it for yourself - not him. HE will still do what he wants... you have to make changes for yourself.
Author mc1 Posted February 3, 2009 Author Posted February 3, 2009 I am curious, and I don't want you to compromise your anonymity, but can you describe, in general terms, the reasoning and philosophy behind the requirement that you be married to perform your job? Is it to provide the appearance of groundedness, stability, family values, etc.? Is it important to actually have those characteristics, or just to have the appearance for marketing purposes? I think it is just the appearance that is more important. But we live at work, so it would be hard to pretend to still be married but carry on a separate life. I also wouldn't want to teach my daughter that it's okay to live 2 separate lives like that. We actually did discuss the possibility of continuing to live together for a year or two being more business partners than spouses, but decided if we're gonna live together, we might as well give making the marriage work a fair chance. There of course are other reasons we are trying though, I'm not sticking around just to preserve my job. And while the presence of other personel and cameras is useful, I think I would still trust H is this job without all of that. He probably doesn't deserve the trust, but he is being VERY honest with me right now and I think he will continue to be. He also has very good boundaries between between work and his personal life - this other girl had nothing to do with work.
desertmoon Posted February 3, 2009 Posted February 3, 2009 Mci, this woman came to live with you "partly" because she had (has?) issues-whether she is there as an official client..is not the issue...she was there because she was troubled.... and it looks like you guys (your H and you) should know the answer to the ethical question of whether it is right or wrong to have relations with someone as unstable as that woman..knowing the facts about her.....please...if I know this woman I would tell her to contact the lawyer, Gloria Allred.
2sunny Posted February 3, 2009 Posted February 3, 2009 I think it is just the appearance that is more important. He also has very good boundaries between between work and his personal life - this other girl had nothing to do with work. good boundaries? what is good about a boundary that allowed him to prey upon an innocent, young gal - then justify it on the back end? and where is your boundary that SHOULD find all of this to be unacceptable in a good, decent, respectful, kind and loving husband?
2sure Posted February 3, 2009 Posted February 3, 2009 In a previous post on this thread OP states she doesnt really care what happens to the girl in the future. That is not an unusual sentiment coming from a BS ...except this particular OW was a teen in their care, personally if not professionally. OP states she and her H work inn a theraputic live in atmosphere for supervised young people. From her stand point on this "affair" and her comments , I gather that neither she or her H are therapists or preofessionally employed with the clients other than perhaps janitorial, clerical or maybe night supervision in dorms. I have this idea because OP seems to not have any regard or knowledge of how serious the crime (and I do think its a crime) committed is. However, in many instances like this - when the person is a teen when abused, then turns adut - the victim will tell someone. Especially since this particular teen was in the couples care at the time of the abuse, in their care at a professional facility with other young people. When the victim tells her parents, or her next therapist...the OP and her forgiven spouse will go to jail. I note that OP has uses the same kind of detatched emotional wording used by criminals. She doesnt and isnt going to see the crime in this or her very active role.
Author mc1 Posted February 3, 2009 Author Posted February 3, 2009 Until your husband acknowledges that his choice in whom to have an affair with was unethical and unconscionable, and that he is not fit to be any kind of therapeutic resource for kids in trouble because he cannot exercise good judgment and control over himself with girls entrusted into his care - AND SEEKS HELP for his problem - saving your marriage should be the least of your concerns. WHAT makes you think that he can be a better person? He continues to contact this girl - his soulmate!!! - and can't even tell you when he'll stop. So what is he doing to show you that he can be a better person? most of you will probably see this post as enabling or making excuses... but I'm sick of the attacks, so here we go... He has never denied it was "unethical and unconscionable," he has never made any excuses for himself. He does not say he is her soulmate any more, did not mean it in the way that she is the "only" one for him, but that he had a strong addiction to her, and has shown me conversations with her he's had to back that up. I'm also sad to see that you take marriage so lightly to say that it should be the least of my concerns... my marriage is always one of my top priorities, and all of the other stuff i should apparently be more concerned with affects my marriage also. things he has done to show he can be better: - tells me who is calling and who he is calling - tells me who he's texting (shows me messages) - doesn't leave the room for phone conversations - helps out more around house - expresses love toward me more frequently than he has in about the last 4 years. - saw doctor to address depression and sleeping problems - started to see therapist for addiction/affair - is not alone with other women - sets aside time to be just with me every day, shows that I can be a priority to him - is more considerate of me, notices and compliments things again, offers to help with things - does extra work when I'm having a hard time dealing with this so that I can have a break
Author mc1 Posted February 3, 2009 Author Posted February 3, 2009 are you in the US? where i live it is against the law to have sex with someone under the age of 18. The legal age of consent here is 16 as long as the person you are having sex with is no more than 10 years older than you. either way, your husband took advantage of an extremely vulnerable gal and should be held accountable. for you to gloss over this and justify it in your mind is a disservice to anything moral. where are your moral boundaries? and why are your boundaries so loose? is it a loose boundary designed so that you don't have to share this information if it might embarrass you or one you love (your husband)? if so, you need to reassess what is right and what is wrong. his actions show that everything is wrong and you have only justified bad behavior. I've never said or hinted at his actions being in any way okay or moral, I'm not sure why everyone keeps assuming I think they were. It seems like everyone here thinks I should leave him over this.. so maybe this is not the place for the support and advice i was looking for, although it did help me find the courage to talk to him about the PA part instead of just the EA. how's this all working out for you? as i notice - he's still justifying bad actions and behavior because he is still unwilling to allow you to understand how anything is going to change. if nothing changes - nothing changes! i bet he's still seeing her - even if he's saying he's not. now.... what are you going to do about it? YOU are the only one can change it for yourself - not him. HE will still do what he wants... you have to make changes for yourself. It is impossible that he is still seeing her, she's moved across the country. Is everyone so cynical to think that it is impossible for someone who has committed an affair to feel true remorse or guilt for what they did? Or to think that change and improvement are impossible? Things have actually been going VERY well for us. It hasn't been easy and there's been a lot of crying on both parts and lots of talking about what we need for us to be happy married to each other, but we're both happier now that we've been in a while and both starting to make the changes we need to.
norajane Posted February 3, 2009 Posted February 3, 2009 I don't know how to help you understand what we see as being so wrong here. Maybe this example might help. Flip the scenario. 17 year old girl comes to your home so you can provide shelter for her from an abusive father. While in your home, your husband turns her on to coke and she becomes a drug addict. You find out they're getting high together and don't say anything. Husband decides he can't afford her habit anymore, so he sends her to live with her sister. Now, this 17 year old girl has been abused by a parent AND she's a drug addict. YOU don't give a damn about the damage he did TO the girl, you are just focused on keeping your husband and your job. Yeah, your husband has "remorse", but he's still the kind of guy who would feed coke to an abused 17 year old. Does that help you understand why perhaps we can't understand how you would want to be with a man who would heap more damage on an already damaged young girl?
2sunny Posted February 3, 2009 Posted February 3, 2009 and i still se it as a man who will prey upon a vulnerable young gal. not a man i could admire or respect... even as a friend - much less a husband.
NoIDidn't Posted February 3, 2009 Posted February 3, 2009 Okay, its agreed that what mc1's H did was unacceptable morally and ethically? So why is everyone jumping all over her again? She's only 24 and doesn't yet grasp the gravity of the situation that she and her H are in. I'm willing to bet that her H won't stop talking to the girl now because she is still under 18 and threatening to tell *someone* what happened. However, her being under 18 is not necessarily a problem in some states. I believe in some states the cut off for statutory rape is 16. Mc1 needs help to see clearly what has happened. And not just the "its over now, let's sing kum ba yah" version that her H is giving her.
Author mc1 Posted February 3, 2009 Author Posted February 3, 2009 Seriously everyone, I GET that it was wrong, probably one of the worst things he could have done beside killing someone... and he's not just getting out with out any consequences for his behavior. I guess I'm just not one to give up on someone as easily as everyone seems to think i should.
NoIDidn't Posted February 3, 2009 Posted February 3, 2009 Seriously everyone, I GET that it was wrong, probably one of the worst things he could have done beside killing someone... and he's not just getting out with out any consequences for his behavior. I guess I'm just not one to give up on someone as easily as everyone seems to think i should. I think what everyone was responding to was the "but she" considering *she* isn't yet 18. It makes them feel that she was underage and therefore totally naive. Not that I am blaming the girl, but not all teens are taken advantage of. Some have already led pretty hard lives and have had to fight for survival. I hope your H will stop talking to her and point her in the direction of better *help*. The more he talks to her, the guiltier he looks. And all that talk of "soulmates" with a teen, drug addict don't make him sound emtionally mature in the least (actually common among the depressed, so he needs help with this). Have you guys considered therapy for your marriage and for yourselves individually? It would help him tremendously if he got with a good counselor.
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