clv0116 Posted January 30, 2009 Posted January 30, 2009 I'm against gay marriage, but before you fly all apart let me tell you why. I'm against the government being involved in the marriage business at all. If a couple wants some religious ceremony then they should be able to have it, and if they wish to execute any number of civil contracts they should be able to do that, but to require a standard non-negotiable and ex-post-facto modifiable by public policy civil contract seems pretty silly. Discuss.
Author clv0116 Posted January 30, 2009 Author Posted January 30, 2009 So what you're REALLY saying is you're against the government being involved in ANY marital situation, be it gay or straight. Correct. I think adding more complexity and mess into that broken idea is a step in the wrong direction.
Geishawhelk Posted January 30, 2009 Posted January 30, 2009 Why? Why are you against the government being involved? Why should the church be involved? Love is neither religious nor political. A marriage is a legally binding contract that has to go through the Law courts to be dissolved. it would be more logical to take the church out of the equasion, rather than the Governemnt.
Author clv0116 Posted January 31, 2009 Author Posted January 31, 2009 Love is neither religious nor political. OK we agree so far. A marriage is a legally binding contract that has to go through the Law courts to be dissolved. Why? Why should it be that way?
allina Posted January 31, 2009 Posted January 31, 2009 I'm absolutely for gay marriage. Anyone who is against it should be ashamed of themselves! When you pass laws that take a freedom that you have, away from someone because they're different from you it is one of the worst kinds of discrimination. If you are straight, a gay couple marring has ZERO impact on you and YOUR beliefs, to prevent a loving gay couple from marrying is hateful and bigoted. Everyone has the right to believe that gay marriage is wrong or against their religion, what they do NOT have the right to do is to impose those beliefs of the lives of others. The worst thing is many people who are anti-gay marriage site their religion as their reason. We have religious freedom in this country, and we shouldn't be held to some "religious belief" that we don't even believe in. This is one of very very many reasons I despise the religious right wingers
burning 4 revenge Posted January 31, 2009 Posted January 31, 2009 I'm absolutely for gay marriage. Anyone who is against it should be ashamed of themselves! When you pass laws that take a freedom that you have, away from someone because they're different from you it is one of the worst kinds of discrimination. If you are straight, a gay couple marring has ZERO impact on you and YOUR beliefs, to prevent a loving gay couple from marrying is hateful and bigoted. Everyone has the right to believe that gay marriage is wrong or against their religion, what they do NOT have the right to do is to impose those beliefs of the lives of others. The worst thing is many people who are anti-gay marriage site their religion as their reason. We have religious freedom in this country, and we shouldn't be held to some "religious belief" that we don't even believe in. This is one of very very many reasons I despise the religious right wingers its obvious you hate me though ive done nothing wrong ive never even met you so what could have i done i dont understand what makes a man hate another man help me understand
allina Posted January 31, 2009 Posted January 31, 2009 its obvious you hate me though ive done nothing wrong ive never even met you so what could have i done i dont understand what makes a man hate another man help me understand It all started when you called me too uppity for the super bowl :laugh:
Ariadne Posted January 31, 2009 Posted January 31, 2009 I'm absolutely for gay marriage. Anyone who is against it should be ashamed of themselves! When you pass laws that take a freedom that you have, away from someone because they're different from you it is one of the worst kinds of discrimination. If you are straight, a gay couple marring has ZERO impact on you and YOUR beliefs, to prevent a loving gay couple from marrying is hateful and bigoted. Everyone has the right to believe that gay marriage is wrong or against their religion, what they do NOT have the right to do is to impose those beliefs of the lives of others. The worst thing is many people who are anti-gay marriage site their religion as their reason. We have religious freedom in this country, and we shouldn't be held to some "religious belief" that we don't even believe in. This is one of very very many reasons I despise the religious right wingers What Allina said! Also, gay couples should be allowed to adopt all the children they can care for.
burning 4 revenge Posted January 31, 2009 Posted January 31, 2009 but what if youre against gay marriage just because you find it too silly is that really so bad? it has nothing to do with hate its just that gay marriage is ridiculous
Ariadne Posted January 31, 2009 Posted January 31, 2009 but what if youre against gay marriage just because you find it too silly is that really so bad? it has nothing to do with hate its just that gay marriage is ridiculous so what...
burning 4 revenge Posted January 31, 2009 Posted January 31, 2009 so what... but marraige is supposed to be something serious.....
quankanne Posted January 31, 2009 Posted January 31, 2009 Anyone who is against it should be ashamed of themselves! but dear, you've just implied that it's one thing to be against it but another to pass laws forbidding it ... the whole need for security of rights for same sex couples I totally get, and believe there should be a push for recognition of said rights. But I draw the line at approval of gay marriage. Not because I'm hateful or want to deny gays, but because I just don't see the logic of it. I cannot equate what trials and tribulations a homosexual couple faces with what a hetero couple faces, and I think it's a slap in the face to both sides to try to make them equal when the fact of the matter they're not. Why should either camp be forced to identify themselves by each others' qualities when the dynamics of each relationship is so very different? I'm supposed to be ashamed just because I'm a skeptic? Sorry, I left junior high 30 years ago ...
allina Posted January 31, 2009 Posted January 31, 2009 Anyone who is against it should be ashamed of themselves! but dear, you've just implied that it's one thing to be against it but another to pass laws forbidding it ... the whole need for security of rights for same sex couples I totally get, and believe there should be a push for recognition of said rights. But I draw the line at approval of gay marriage. Not because I'm hateful or want to deny gays, but because I just don't see the logic of it. I cannot equate what trials and tribulations a homosexual couple faces with what a hetero couple faces, and I think it's a slap in the face to both sides to try to make them equal when the fact of the matter they're not. Why should either camp be forced to identify themselves by each others' qualities when the dynamics of each relationship is so very different? I'm supposed to be ashamed just because I'm a skeptic? Sorry, I left junior high 30 years ago ... I didn't imply it, I said it! I would expect people in this day and age to be able to say "I may not agree with it but I know I shouldn't impose on the rights of others." See the difference? A good human being puts their personal opinions aside to grant people rights they desperately want. What logic are you missing here? It isn't complicated! A gay man LOVES his partner the same way I love mine, the same way my father loves my mother. The love and commitment a gay person has for his or her partner is no different than the love a straight person has for theirs. The love, commitment, struggle and work that exist in straight couples is NO different than in gay couples. Why are you refusing to grasp this? Who are you to say that two people that love each other cannot have the same right to marry as you? Why do you have to impose to deny them a right they want?
quankanne Posted January 31, 2009 Posted January 31, 2009 so because I don't buy into it, I'm wrong for trying to impose my will on others, but those who are pro-homosexual marriage cannot be considered wrong even though they do the same to the opposite camp? The love, commitment, struggle and work that exist in straight couples is NO different than in gay couples the love and the emotions are the same, the issues faced are not. Wrong as it is, there's still hate, bias, bigotry, etc. Waving a wand and saying that it's magically all right for gays to marry isn't going to change that, and those are the issues that a heterosexual couple will never, ever have to face, will they? So how can you compare what they go through in those terms similar to what a non-gay couple goes through? And wouldn't insisting they call their unions "marriages" be sanitizing their relationships to be accepted by the non-gay community? Why would you force that on someone if they're already comfortable in their identity? Are we as a society then supposed to ostracize the gays that choose NOT to marry because they're not part of the mainstream? Or do we lump 'em in with the couples that cohabitate, procreate but would rather not be "married"? it's not a matter of hate, but looking beyond the obvious ...
boldjack Posted January 31, 2009 Posted January 31, 2009 My suggestion is to stop this thread now. Nobody is going to change anybody's mind, and isn't this a rather silly thing to argue over in the first place? besides. the govt. and church have very little authority over this issue anyway. It's the insurance companies, who will decide who's married or not. Money talks, Bu**sh*t walks.
quankanne Posted January 31, 2009 Posted January 31, 2009 It's the insurance companies, who will decide who's married or not. Money talks, Bu**sh*t walks. scarily enough, I think you've injected a kind of inarguable logic into the dialogue, though it wasn't the kind I was thinking of. going that tangent, I wonder what would be considered a "good risk"? There are disease issues associated with homosexuality (be they real or just blatant scare factors) that would make a huge issue out of "pre-existing conditions" the way diabetes is ... then there's the whole deal with longevity/durability of relationship you know will be forced as an issue when it shouldn't be ... damn. That's enough to join the band wagon, just to see it BE successful against big insurance
burning 4 revenge Posted January 31, 2009 Posted January 31, 2009 Ultimately Ill say I dont give a f*ck about marriage but not because Im hip but because Im a selfish f*ck
Dumbledore Posted January 31, 2009 Posted January 31, 2009 it has nothing to do with hate its just that gay marriage is ridiculous I totally agree. It's ridiculous. It's like spitting in Mother Nature's face.
Weird Posted January 31, 2009 Posted January 31, 2009 I find marriage to be silly but if homosexuals want to get married then I see no reason why they shouldn't be allowed. If it helps them get betters rights with their partner then simple logic says they should be allowed. I do not understand those who are against it but are fine with two heterosexual rednecks getting married who will abuse the perks, abuse each other, cheat on each other and then have a kid and not parent him/her and only have one to get the tax breaks from that. There is probably a faaaaaaaaar higher % of straight marriages that abuse the system than gay marriages would. I also do not understand why anyone cares either...how does it factor into your life if two homosexuals get married? I guess I don't live in the area where a homosexual couple come into your home and try and have sex with you against your will. IMO those who oppose it are just flat out dumb homophobes or bible thumpers but again, that's just my opinion. If your argument against this is because you find homosexuality to be wrong or unnatural then why not be against dumb people from getting married? I am against stupidity, find it wrong, find it unnatural (one of the curses of having a high IQ when the avg person is a semi-moron) but apparently it is ok for idiots to get married and reproduce. People really need to grasp they do not rule the species and need to mind their own business in the lives of others when it does not affect them. I am sure most would not like it if I told them what I think they should or should not be allowed to do so why do it to others?
Geishawhelk Posted January 31, 2009 Posted January 31, 2009 Why? Why should it be that way? There has to be a legal precedent to deal with the dividion of assets, goods & chattels property and the correct and apporpriate care and supervision of children. THis is something that can only be assessed and governed by the legal system, otherwise it would be mayhem, homicide figures would rise sharply, and there's be no rhyme or reason for anything. I personally would be happy to never be married again, but my partner would love to see us married, and I'm happy to do that. He is also studying law and I know that he would ensure that any legal requirements leaving both of us in a position of mutual benefit, should we separate (or leaving the surviving spouse in an advantageous position should the other die) is something I can completely trust him to do. The church, quite frankly, decided to take over the marriage of people as an action of sanctity when they realised they could be in a position of control. Our current view of marriage is complete bunkum. Google this: The Myth of Marriage By Monica Mehta, on AlterNet It's an eye-opener......
Ariadne Posted January 31, 2009 Posted January 31, 2009 but marraige is supposed to be something serious..... It's serious to the two people involved.
quankanne Posted January 31, 2009 Posted January 31, 2009 If it helps them get betters rights with their partner then simple logic says they should be allowed. simple logic says fight for rights that allow same-sex partners to claim certain rights if they have indeed lived in a partnership a long while ... something akin to common-law "marriage," if you will. It's a hybrid creature that covers basic rights and needs, but doesn't step on the toes of anyone.
Trialbyfire Posted January 31, 2009 Posted January 31, 2009 I'd like marriage to be solely a word and a separate religious ceremony, from a civil union. You can be married but have no legal rights until you've also had a civil ceremony. A civil ceremony would be legal for gays, lesbians and heterosexual couples.
Geishawhelk Posted January 31, 2009 Posted January 31, 2009 That's how it works in France, A civil union is legal, no matter what, and doesn't need a religious ceremony to underpin it. A religious (Church) ceremony has no legal standing on its own, and is not recognised as binding. Pactes de solidarite (Solidarity pacts) between gay couples have been legally recognised in France since 1999.
Woggle Posted January 31, 2009 Posted January 31, 2009 Of course there should be gay marriage because there is no logical argument against it. It doesn't hurt mariage or anything else is any way whatsoever. In an ideal world the government would have nothing to do with marriage but that piece of paper does make all the legal stuff easier to take care of so it should be available to anybody gay or straight.
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