Author Centuris Posted February 13, 2009 Author Posted February 13, 2009 Don't I already have a pretty good idea what is going on? What is the point of hearing her side of the story? She will just blame me for driving her to cheat due to my various flaws. I want to talk to the counselor about this first before I confront or make my next move because she may have handled infidelity and have insight about how to confront. Maybe I need to grow a bigger pair of balls to enable myself to want to confront after only 1 day or a half day. I feel kind of stunned and am trying to get equilibrium. I'm totally on board with the assertiveness/looking in the eye stuff. This is one of the most important issues in my life.
65tr6 Posted February 13, 2009 Posted February 13, 2009 Don't I already have a pretty good idea what is going on? What is the point of hearing her side of the story? She will just blame me for driving her to cheat due to my various flaws. nope. You just have some evidence. There is that 2 years of cheating you have no clue what else is missing. Dont you want to know the modus operendi ? the works ? Yes she will blame you, the marriage and everything else she can think of. Stay calm. Time to get the truth out. If you need couple of days to get the inner strength you need so be it. From experience quiet of few folks can tell you (me included), it changes the dynamics of the marriage completely when both the spouses talk and the truth starts to come out. You dont need a MC to figure out a plan here. You take charge from this point on. Feeling stunned, I can relate. Trust me. Most of the BS here can. By the way, how are you coming along on your 180s ?
Ramrod Posted February 13, 2009 Posted February 13, 2009 Lie low? No wonder you losing her my man, you don't have any passion for her. If it were my wife, you'd have to tie me down to keep me from getting right up in her face, but then, to each his own. Sad, you need to reconnect to your own heart first before she can try to reconnect to you dude. Best regards, honestly, not sarcasm.
Mr. Lucky Posted February 13, 2009 Posted February 13, 2009 Maybe I need to grow a bigger pair of balls to enable myself to want to confront after only 1 day or a half day. I feel kind of stunned and am trying to get equilibrium. Centuris, you're obviously afraid of something. Loneliness? Confrontation? Truth? After everything you've discovered, what's left to fear? Mr. Lucky
Author Centuris Posted February 13, 2009 Author Posted February 13, 2009 OK, it's a mind game but I am trying to detach myself from her. Three to five years ago I would be yelling, pleading about whatever it was and begging for her help to make this or that better. I don't want to beg anymore. I am trying to psych myself up. I am intellingent, empathetic, kind, I work hard for my money and I have integrity. I've never been great in the looks department, but I think if I continue to hit the gym over a year and do a few other things I can move myself up 2-3 points on the 1-10 scale. I have been a good father to my children. Of course, you all point out, if you're such a catch, why do I put up with this (let alone that it's a bleeding wound, etc). I will get there. With each new development it looks like I'm closer to the path of kicking her out of my life. I want to be at the top of my game when that happens. Maybe I've always had a different personality type from some of you, not always to my advantage. I work my way up to things. It's kind of a fetish sometimes. For example, let's say you and I were each given a set of legos and told to build 4 cars. You might build car 1, then car 2, 3, and 4...boom, boom, boom, boom. My style is first, I would gather up all of the wheels and assemble all the wheels to all the axles for all four cars...then I would put on the chassis for all four cars...you get the picture. Since the nature of my problem with my wife became clearer and clearer over the years, I have been in massive information gathering mode about how to relate to wives, and to women in general. This is not something I was particularly interested in in the past. I just figured marriage was like a contract, that you did it once and you were done. I didn't see it as a living, breathing thing that required lots of maintenance. Or maybe my wife has made things harder in any case all along the way. I can tell you one thing, if I'm turned loose from this marriage, I'll have a much better skill set to meet the next partner, and have a better sense of red flags to watch out for. Too bad it may be too late for the current relationship.
Author Centuris Posted February 13, 2009 Author Posted February 13, 2009 Centuris, you're obviously afraid of something. Loneliness? Confrontation? Truth? After everything you've discovered, what's left to fear? Mr. Lucky I have this strange belief that there is a formula for everything. How to parent your children. How to behave on a first date. How to prepare for your own death. I want to maximize my chances for success I guess, maybe it's an illusion, with "success" being some ridiculous fantasy that she has some kind of a personailty transplant or something. "Honey! I was so wrong! Forgive me! Can I give you a blowjob now?"
stampdaddy Posted February 13, 2009 Posted February 13, 2009 I have this strange belief that there is a formula for everything. How to parent your children. How to behave on a first date. How to prepare for your own death. I want to maximize my chances for success I guess, maybe it's an illusion, with "success" being some ridiculous fantasy that she has some kind of a personailty transplant or something. "Honey! I was so wrong! Forgive me! Can I give you a blowjob now?" What the hell???
Author Centuris Posted February 13, 2009 Author Posted February 13, 2009 What the hell??? Joke. I find this all a little ironic. Granted, I have not been great in the romance department, but here I am busting my ass at the office so I can provide my wife this home, spending money and entertainment, so she can sit home and expose herself, and who knows what else (stay tuned I guess ). The guys, who are chatting with her appear not to be great catches either. Granted, it appears that the ones she is focusing on are (judging by their pictures and profiles , and I guess cams) younger and more muscular than me. Who knows, maybe they all have 11 inch cocks too. But let's read between the lines here. I mean, if a guy was that hot, would he be IMing someone else's wife late at night and pleading with her to take her bra off so he can jerk off on the cam and spray his jism all over his keyboard? No, a really hot guy would be out with a hot girl at that hour, whether he is 20 years old or 40 years old, not at his computer. I mean, seriously.
jj33 Posted February 13, 2009 Posted February 13, 2009 That is actually quite sweet. Deep down you beleive that if YOU do the right thing, the marriage can be fixed. It is positive that you believe that you have control over your life and your destiny. And that you can find a way to fix your marriage. However there is one thing here. It is not YOUR job alone to find the formula. It takes two. And one thing that rings loud and clear is the doormat issue. What do you do when someone baits you and does not respect basic boundaries of common decency? (e.g. the way she speaks to you) She is daring you to stand up to her. Daring you to take control and say you wont put up with this bs anymore. But you dont. You say gee maybe if I do things differently maybe if I wait and see. I am not criticizing you. Everyone has a different temperament. But its not working with her. It is also a classic response of an emotionally abused person. She is treating me worse than dog poo, it must mean that if I do something different she will be nice to me. It seems to me that you are taking her bad behavior on board as something you have to fix. Only she can fix her bad behavior. Is it possibly a cry for help to say our marriage is in deep trouble, we need to fix this? Possibly but its not a healthy cry for help is it... She wants you to man up and show her you arent going to let her treat you that way. But reading your threads, confronting her is not comfortable for you. Maybe maybe maybe this can be fixed in therapy. But it could be that your tempraments are just very different. Its also very possible that you have avoided conflict and anger within your marriage on other issues through the years. That is not your fault it simoply means that as a couple you havent found a way to communicate with each other. You are going to wait a week or so after finding your W on the internet with these men without saying a word? living in the same house with her? That says quite a bit about your abililty to stuff your emotoins.. doesnt it? again this is not a criticism just an observation. I understand that you want to wait but to be able to wait... Personally I dont think she is sick I think she is acting out. Either because she wants out or because she is just very unhappy in herself and doesnt know how to communicate in a positive way. Webcam sex on the internet is just... I dont even have the words. My heart goes out to you. You sound like a nice person who is being treated as an object of contempt. And it sounds like she has been treating you this way for some time. Not all marriages are meant to be saved. If you dont kick her out, then at least make her earn back your trust. If you dont stand up for yourself (with the help of a therapist or books or otherwise) your marriage doesnt stand a chance. She will just keep pushing.
Onwards Posted February 13, 2009 Posted February 13, 2009 Centuris, I know that a message board can be deceptive, but you come across as a defeated man. You should be angry, ropeable and ready to kick her out right this second...but instead, it's almost like you're taking this as 'par for the course'. You may very well be furious, but it doesn't come across that way in your messages. You say you want to save your marriage but you don't appear to be taking any active steps to do so. Making a stand and kicking her out is actually the first step to doing just that. She doesn't respect you and she never will unless you give her something to respect. She has crossed boundaries, but you're going to keep the evidence 'up your sleeve' until any divorce proceedings? C'mon man - she is walking over you because you are letting her...and even when you overwhelming proof you're not going to confront her with it. Not trying to be harsh here mate, just want you to see why this won't get better until you start making it better.
Mr. Lucky Posted February 13, 2009 Posted February 13, 2009 if I'm turned loose from this marriage I'm sure it seems that we're all ganging up on you, but damn! "IF" you're turned loose? What else does you wife have to do to you for you to consider that you've been granted permission to leave her? Mr. Lucky
Owl Posted February 13, 2009 Posted February 13, 2009 Of course, the option to take or leave the advice you find on a forum like this is all yours. Just bear in mind that the people posting here are posting (most of us) from long, bitter experience. I don't see a "plan" in your plan. And frankly...I don't see recovery as an outcome, either. MAYBE an extension of the dysfunction that the two of you are living in right now...perhaps...but nothing more than that. I don't see any onus for change, any method to get the two of you out of the abyss you're sitting in now. Good luck to you...if I'm wrong, and your path leads to recovery....please, come back here and post and feel free to tell me that I was totally wrong. I'd be pleasently surprised to hear it.
hunkahunkaburninlove Posted February 13, 2009 Posted February 13, 2009 Centuris, I think your are exactly right in separating your bank account. If she can't be trusted with her vagina, she can't be trusted with your money. Get all you ducks in a row like you planned and then. Surprise the shi.t out of her.
Maladjusted Posted February 13, 2009 Posted February 13, 2009 I wouldn't even open another bank account. I'd just set money aside someplace safe until you figure out what is going to happen. If it comes to divorce and another account is seen in your name..........poof there goes the money.
jwi71 Posted February 13, 2009 Posted February 13, 2009 Onwards has it I think. You're beat down, broken and defeated. And why wouldn't you - that would break MOST people. I hope your MC can help you formulate a plan that YOU can live with. I hope you get what YOU in terms of your M. And don't bother hiding money or separating accounts. If you file for D you will be required to sign a list of ALL assets and you do NOT want to lie. Not worth the effort. Good luck...I hope your plan helps you arrive at your destination.
Author Centuris Posted March 17, 2009 Author Posted March 17, 2009 Just wanted to give an update. I have not visited this thread in a while. My mind has shifted on a few things. Don't know if this will be helpful to anyone here, but I am a living person so anyone's experience can have some benefit to someone else to a certain extent. Internet Shennanigans. - I took off the keylogger and have not monitored the W's computer use since my last discovery. I did not delete the evidence but am putting it out of my mind because I don't believe that thinking about it is good for my mental health. I have not confronted the W. Counseling. - After meeting with the counselor I mentioned in the above thread, I still felt "empty" and unsure about what to do so I wanted more opinions. The first counseling session above cost about $150. I spent an additional approx. $600 on counseling at liveperson.com. I contacted listed experts in infidelity and spammed like ten of them with my story to see who would respond. I got responses from 6 but one was kind of psycho so I ignored her. I developed a "stable" of counselors, learning what their expertises were based on the interactions, sending different questions to each. Most was through email but some was in chat and one was by phone. I signed up with one counselor for emails once a day for 30 days for $70. That counselor responded every day with advice (I had to make sure my emails were limited length, like 2/3 of a page). That counselor helped the most because I could write her each day "you wouldn't BELIEVE what happened today" etc, helping to keep me in a positive frame of mind and remind me what kind of choices or alternatives I seemed to be facing at the moment. All of the counselors were concerned about the family environment/my kids and all have asked me to consider separation or divorce as an option. Reading List - I have pigged out on audiobooks, as follows (actually, I have done more than these, but these are the ones I have paid the most attention to): How One of You Can Bring Two of You Together, by Susan Page Language of Sex, by Gary Smalley and Ted Cunningham Mating in Captivity, by Esther Perel Rescue Your Love Life, by Henry Cloud How to Get Her Back for Good, by George Karanastasis The Five Love Languages, by Gary Chapman Exercise - I have gotten into a real routine at the gym (Mon, Wed, Fri 5AM-6:30) and am seeing some real results. I plan to start Tae Kwon Do classes in May. Finances - I have started to be a lot more disciplined with money (but not scrimping on my wife and kids' needs) and the leaky boat of our family finances is beginning to be patched and right itself. Work - I have become much more focused on my goals at work and am seeing progress there, despite the fact that my company is not doing well now. Surprise Offer - We had been having some obvious issues with our eldest daughter and a leader at our church offered to take us through a parenting program. We were getting close to our first meeting when I described to that person a recent fight I had had with my wife (which involved our daughter). It was actually a pretty typical scene for us, despite the craziness. The lady pretty much said "whoah, there's a lot more going on here besides parenting". She asked if we would be willing to meet with our pastor and his wife, who is a trained counselor. Our Eldest Daughter - For whatever reason, she has calmed down and decided to be less rebellious lately. She is doing well in school and is going to a girls' sleep away camp with her best friend for the first time this summer, and is pretty focused on that. An Experiment - My wife and I met with the pastor and his wife and some of our sh*t came out. Not the internet stuff, but it was enough. The pastor and his wife did call my wife out on her disrespect of me. In passing, the pastor recommended the Five Love Languages book I mentioned above, which I have now read. After reflecting, I am committed to doing an experiment, which is mentioned in the book. I am unconditionally going to act in love to my wife using three of the five love languages (the ones that she will accept) for the next six months and see what happens. This experiment is mentioned by Gary Chapman late in his book. The three she will accept are: Acts of Service (for example, helping to clean and take care of the kids) Words of Affirmation (complimenting her on good that she does on a daily basis, even if minor) Quality Time, specifically, conversation; she knows I am a good conversationalist and she enjoys talking to me. I will probably get flamed, but the reasoning behind my unconditional offer of the above "love languages" as a test is specifically linked in the love languages book to the teachings of Jesus, as follows, the commandment to "love your enemies" Luke 6:27-36, this can be read at: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%206:27-36 One of the 5 love languages is "physical touch" which obviously includes sex, the whole nine yards. I am not going to go there. My W has to open the door to that, she has to want it and cross the distance for that. I am going to focus on the good things in my life besides physical affection for now. As an aside, I saw an article about the last eunuch in Imperial China recently (he died in 1996, but a juicy bio about his life just appeared in English)http://www.ottawacitizen.com/China+last+eunuch+spills+castration+secrets/1394806/story.html , which shows you can have quite an interesting life without sex if that's what happens to you. Anyway, I know what I am doing is going against the grain of advice I have received here. That's not quite fair to say, you guys have alls said that I have a choice, and that I am going to need to decide. What I am planning to do is obviously hard, may seem to prolong my "doormat" status, and could be misconstrued as non-self-assertive. For whatever reason I feel like I have a reservior of strength right now to offer this gift to my wife right now. I will report back later and let you know how things went. For all you know I could write back in December and tell everyone that my wife ran off with the U.S. Navy during fleet week. We'll see, take care and stay strong.
jwi71 Posted March 17, 2009 Posted March 17, 2009 Thanks for the update. I'm glad you are working on you that's always beneficial. However for a M to work it requires TWO people to work together, working not only their union but themselves as well. In fact, I would say the union CANNOT move forward unless both are working on it. And that simply isn't your case. What I see is YOU bending over backwards to meet her needs. I see nothing from her. Your actions are not healing since your W isn't reciprocating. Witness these 3 loves you offer...all on HER terms. Her needs. Of course she'll accept...its less mundane house work for HER. Its more ego stroke for her. Is she going out of her way to meet YOUR needs? Care to expand?
Author Centuris Posted March 17, 2009 Author Posted March 17, 2009 No, she is not meeting my needs. Of the five love languages my top two are "Physical Touch" and "Words of Affirmation", and she is failing royally with both of those. However, the LL book presents a situation where a person intentionally decides to provide for another's needs without their own needs being met, and the experiment is to see if the other person changes their behavior.
blueintheface Posted March 18, 2009 Posted March 18, 2009 No harm in trying. I think at the end of the day even if the experiment fails, at least you will have had practice becoming a better person and partner. Do you have a deadline for if it doesn't work by a year - then pack it in? Also good idea with preparing the bank accounts and such. For me, i would not go in raging like so many others here have advised and i am definitely no doormat. In terms of being a doormat, if your wife were a better person she wouldn't take advantage of that. I find myself with certain friends having to step back because they are too nice and i basically flatten them into doing what i want. Furthermore, you seem to be doing your own thing with advice from this forum. Maybe you're not aggressive alpha male but you're a step above doormat, maybe doorknob. xD
imagine Posted March 18, 2009 Posted March 18, 2009 This ties in with my previous question about meeting HER emotional needs. BUT REMEMBER THIS: if there is an affair in her life at this time, it does not work. First clear the air regarding infidelity. In your example earlier about assembly of a car, this is like getting all the wheels ready but never having a chassis. You have enough good reading matter already. I would love to connect you to the Marriagebuilders weekend project if you live in USA. These guys are very successful. Go check the articles at marriagebuilders.com when you get a gap.
Pamcat826 Posted March 18, 2009 Posted March 18, 2009 Hey Centuris, you sound like a wonderful man, and I think ONLY you can make the right decision on which is the right approach for you to reconcile your marriage. I think it's wonderful that you have chosen this experiment. I hope YOU can teach your wife about the meaning of service to one's spouse. If there ever was LOVE there, hopefully it will bloom again. Best wishes!
65tr6 Posted March 18, 2009 Posted March 18, 2009 I am unconditionally going to act in love to my wife using three of the five love languages (the ones that she will accept) for the next six months and see what happens. This experiment is mentioned by Gary Chapman late in his book. The three she will accept are: Acts of Service (for example, helping to clean and take care of the kids) Words of Affirmation (complimenting her on good that she does on a daily basis, even if minor) Quality Time, specifically, conversation; she knows I am a good conversationalist and she enjoys talking to me. I will probably get flamed, OP, you wont get flamed from me.......I am in a very similar boat and also doing pretty much the same as what you listed above...Unconditional love....for the next several months. I am into sixth month and I can say I am doing pretty good. It does get better. Here is my advice...Dont expect anything...Not for now anyway. But make sure she adheres to the boundaries....I am assuming she is in total NC... Good to hear your update. Also if I may add, what are doing to work on your relationship with your kids ? Makes a huge difference in how your wife sees it too. Ooverall, great plan. You are doing fantanstic !
jwi71 Posted March 18, 2009 Posted March 18, 2009 65, You may have missed it but the OP caught his W sending racy emails and having internet webcam "sex" with several other men. He hasn't addressed this and has yet to confront his W - in fact he stopped monitoring her web activity. I am rather pessimistic here...
65tr6 Posted March 18, 2009 Posted March 18, 2009 He hasn't addressed this and has yet to confront his W - in fact he stopped monitoring her web activity. I thought he took the keylogger off because the activity stopped.... Bad assumption on my part. Centuris, tell me you confronted your wife...yes ? Just so you know, the keylogger is still on all our computers at our home.
Dexter Morgan Posted March 18, 2009 Posted March 18, 2009 My marriage with my wife is at a crossroads. I've written about this elsewhere. She has shown active contempt towards me and has expressed a desire to have an open marriage (for her) Well you don't need to read her emails. She wants to f##k other men. Thats all you need to know to start the proceedings of a divorce. Here's my goal. I think with an affair, where there is smoke there may be fire. If I look in her email and immediately see a lot of crap, I have my answer as to what's going on. You got your answer when she expressed that she wants to f##k other men. If I don't, I haven't proven she's not cheating of course. If I end up finding a lot of crap in her email, my initial response would be to quietly mentally and physically prepare for divorce or separation, without confronting her with my findings. That is very wise. You need to be prepared and have your ducks in a row. If you do decide to get a divorce, then don't let her in on it whatsoever. The day she gets served papers is the day she should find out. At minimum I could open a new bank account and start to stockpile funds. Well, you'd be legally obligated to divulge those funds as they are still marital assets until the divorce is filed. Some say that it is when the divorce is final. That is true with regards to property and bank accounts. But in my case, once it was filed, any money I accumulated, minus child support, was mine. Seeing evidence of an affair would help me decide not to put too much effort in reconciling or hoping to reconcile. Once again, her desire for an open marriage should be sufficient.
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