Dexter Morgan Posted January 29, 2009 Posted January 29, 2009 I know some have said "never spy", it's unethical, and the 180 says "do not spy on your spouse". I wouldn't worry about spying. She is giving you reason to wonder what the hell she is doing, and you need answers. And I can tell you, late night computer use when one spouse goes to bed is a big red flag. And if you read her emails and find something incriminating, expect her to get angry with the whole "you invaded my privacy" bulls##t. If that happens, don't let her beat you down thinking you did something wrong. Because if you find evidence of emotional/physical cheating, snooping pales in comparison to that. I believe what I'm doing is legal because we both own her computer. As long as its your computer, its legal. Tapping her email would give me more info to work with as I plot my next moves. Any thoughts? Yes, if you truly suspect her, then do it. You need answers.
Reggie Posted January 29, 2009 Posted January 29, 2009 I understand the dilema(sp?) in trying to reconcile the "for better or for worse" promise with the need for self preservation when dealing with a disordered spouse. There are a couple ways of looking at this. I guess it is possible to continue with them and find ways to mitigate the damage, "Stop Walking on Eggshells", the book by Randi Kruegger describes the techniques. But, they sound really difficult to do on an ongoing basis and I think you starve emotionally. But ,you are there to protect the kids. One can also make an argument that , at some point, you need to give up and get out to preserve your own health for the kids' sake as well as your own. Living with a PD is extremely toxic and can affect your mental and physical health greatly. It's tough, because the compassionate side of you realizes that this disorder was something the PD did not ask for and was brought on by some pretty bad stuff that happened to them, sometimes. But, what can you do? In rare cases, they do get help once they bottom out. Just recently, with her life in shambles and her affair partner gone, recently arrested, ostracized by her family etc, my XW , out of the blue said she should have gone to counseling when I asked her to get help. You could have knocked me over with a feather. Never in my wildest dreams did i think that this woman who had never ever apologized to anyone for antyhing ,and was a master at shifting blame and responsibility for everything wrong in her life, would consider getting help. So, I guess life is full of surprises.
JustBreathe Posted January 30, 2009 Posted January 30, 2009 Yes. Spy. Definitely. From what I've learned, the best thing is to trust your gut. If you feel like something is wrong, then you're probably right. Look for other signs. Working out more. New underwear. Exaggerated vanity. Put-downs and criticisms of you. Picking fights with you.
JustBreathe Posted January 30, 2009 Posted January 30, 2009 A good "doormat book" (I'm a recovering doormat myself): The Twelve Steps for Co-Dependants, author: Melody Beattie also "Co-Dependant No More" same author.
seibert253 Posted January 30, 2009 Posted January 30, 2009 Man you deserve better. Can't say about your situation, but if my wife talked and acted that way toward me, what was the name of that 70's movie, Gone in 60 seconds.
KismetGirl Posted January 30, 2009 Posted January 30, 2009 She seems pretty happy...often, happy as a clam. She just doesn't like me, describes me as like "a big greasy meal that you want to puke up but can't for some reason". I would not divorce for flirting, just a measure of where her head is at. I would divorce for an actual physical affair if I became aware of it. She has made it very clear multiiple times she has zero interest in making the "marriage better" or doing counselling. So, I don't mention it anymore. I used to think like that, but I'm not going to long for a past that she has no interest in. I am more interested in building a better future for myself (alone if necessary) and my children. We talk fairly often because she approaches me. I talk about whatever she wants to and show interest in her day. I volunteer little about myself anymore. If she uses contemptual words or phrases, I end the conversation and leave. Main point is I am not going to long for something (our marriage together) that she does not value anymore, or buy into her low view of me. Wow. That's harsh. Either she's hoping if she's mean enough you'll just make the decision FOR her to end the marriage, or she has some mental issues she's having difficulty working on. Not making fun, being serious here: does she have a history of mental illness in her family? Not just depression, but a plethora of personality disorders (albeit, harder to diagnose or treat sometimes...) but her behaviour is screaming something beyond just a basic unhappiness with marriage. She still talks to you about her day, is open with you, it seems, about many of her feelings, and has even openly asked for an open marriage. With all due respect, even if she isn't cheating on you physically, why do you want to stay married if there is no love there? You don't think your children will notice that there is zero affection between their parents? You don't think when they get older they'll understand what they hear her saying to you? Im sure that, at the least, the 8 and/or 10 year old has heard conversations between you two, perhaps not even when you notice, and has heard the hateful things mommy says to daddy. I don't think you want your kids growing up having memories of parents that hate each other. My parents divorced when I was somewhere like 10-12 years old and despite living apart they had a very amicable, friendly relationship and shared everything in my and my sibling's life together and was much preferential to when they were screaming and yelling at each other. I have a memory of being like, 8 years old and my mother getting so angry at my father that she threw a chair across the room at him while I screamed for them to stop yelling at each other. Seriously, sometimes its better to just be friendly to each other and raise the children together, but to not be married or live together. Divorce isn't as bad as it sounds....not everyone is meant to be together forever. Plenty of families are divorced, second marriages, etc, and everyone involved is perfectly normal and happy. Growing up hearing your mom tell your dad that he's equatable to a vomit-inducing meal, however, will screw a kid up. Good luck....and whatever you do, don't ever bad mouth your wife to your kids. Whatever she is to you, if she's a good mother to them, that's all they need to know. My mom could have easily said a number of bad things about my father and never said a word. She encouraged me and my siblings to spend as much time as possible with him, let him know everything going on with us, at school, with friends, our lives....never once said one bad word about him, no matter what was going on between him and her. When parents start to fight for sole custody out of pure selfishness, and not because one parent is a bad parent, it's only the kids that suffer.
signedin2008 Posted January 30, 2009 Posted January 30, 2009 Good luck....and whatever you do, don't ever bad mouth your wife to your kids. Whatever she is to you, if she's a good mother to them, that's all they need to know. My mom could have easily said a number of bad things about my father and never said a word. She encouraged me and my siblings to spend as much time as possible with him, let him know everything going on with us, at school, with friends, our lives....never once said one bad word about him, no matter what was going on between him and her. When parents start to fight for sole custody out of pure selfishness, and not because one parent is a bad parent, it's only the kids that suffer. Aren't you ever ashame of yourself? Does anyone whom you respect such as your parents, siblings, aunt, uncle know about your mistress status? Do they know that you continuous sleeping with a married man who has a wife and kids at home?
KismetGirl Posted January 30, 2009 Posted January 30, 2009 Aren't you ever ashame of yourself? Does anyone whom you respect such as your parents, siblings, aunt, uncle know about your mistress status? Do they know that you continuous sleeping with a married man who has a wife and kids at home? stop thread jacking, that's not nice. this thread isn't about me.
Author Centuris Posted February 12, 2009 Author Posted February 12, 2009 Okay, I went to install the keylogger when I got home from the office at midnight (she was already in bed) and noticed that the computer was on and logged in. There was a chat session open with some guy masturbating (in text) while she talked to him. I figured out how to download her whole message archive and got a message reader. Based on the messages she is stripping naked in front of her cam for many, many guys, at least a dozen. And it's been going back for a long time, I appear to have gotten the entire history. Things at work are getting better and better for me. I have started exercising. My confidence is on the upswing, aside from this discovery. I am torn what to do, I feel like right now I don't want to confront her with the evidence, just read more logs and try to figure out what's been done with who first from the text, and see what types of information she's given out. I need some advice, but I'm not sure this board will give me the best, but have at it, I don't care.
hunkahunkaburninlove Posted February 12, 2009 Posted February 12, 2009 You may just want to wait a while and build evidence. This should kill any love for her you have left, but who knows. Sometimes they will carry on and say they want a divorce, but when they see the papers it smacks them back into reality.
jwi71 Posted February 12, 2009 Posted February 12, 2009 Centuris, In my opinion, I don't see anything in your M worth saving. There is simply nothing to build a foundation upon to go forward. Time to leave. Hire your lawyer, file the papers and move out. I think you will find that YOUR mental health improves much faster with her out of the picture.
Owl Posted February 12, 2009 Posted February 12, 2009 OK, you've got your proof. So the next step is deciding what to do with it. And THAT depends on what you decide to do with your marriage. I can't tell you which way to go...try to save it, or cut your losses. In this case...personally...I'd cut my losses. Any woman who'd do what you've described is NOT marriage material. Decide what you want to do from here...divorce or work it out...tell us here, and then we can post advice on where to go from there.
Reggie Posted February 12, 2009 Posted February 12, 2009 Nothing better than divorcing an abuser. She is one disordered, abusvie nut.
Lucky_One Posted February 12, 2009 Posted February 12, 2009 I wouldn't say this is normal behavior at all. If it was one guy, maybe. But at least a dozen? Something is going on with her, psychologically and perhaps physically. Personally, if I found evidence of totally aberrant behavior in my spouse, I would take them for a physical workup ASAP, and also make an appt with a psychiatrist for us both to attend. Something is wrong here, and while you may feel that it is your right to just walk out on her, you have to consider that this is behavior that may be beyond her control, and if you leave, you are leaving your children there with a person who could be mentally ill.
Owl Posted February 12, 2009 Posted February 12, 2009 I disagree...this is a reason to me why you SHOULD walk out...and take the kids with you. Do you want your kids raised by someone who behaves like this? What will she end up teaching them? If you leave...fight for sole custody, citing her actions as proof that she's not fit to have custody.
Lucky_One Posted February 12, 2009 Posted February 12, 2009 Just so you know, in most states, there are guidelines regarding divorcing someone who diagnosed with a psychological disorder. Simply because some spouses take advantage of the other spouse's reduced mental reasoning, and leave the other spouse with nothing. I had a friend whose divorce from his wife took about 4 years. She was severely OCD (with multiple hospitalizations), and he just could not get the divorce any faster because she was not able to make sound decisions. I am sure there will be guys out there who will say "Great! Go for it now, while she is really screwed up! Take her for everything, and leave her skanky ass out in the cold!" But is that really what marriage is about? Sickness and health? "Go for full custody!!" Yes, and possibly deprive 4 children of having a healthy, happy mother who is a positive influence in their lives. I am not saying she IS sick - I am not a doctor, and I don't know either spouse. But I am saying she MAY be sick. And maybe the most loving, kindest, most Christian like thing to do is SEE what is going on with her.
Owl Posted February 12, 2009 Posted February 12, 2009 I'm not telling the OP that he has to divorce...or that he has to reconcile. That choice is up to him. What I was saying was that staying JUST because you're afraid of leaving the kids with her was not his best option. Whether or not she is "fixable" is something he'll have to decide on his own.
Maladjusted Posted February 12, 2009 Posted February 12, 2009 Easiest way to catch her? If you know what time she is on, just walk in on her.
Dexter Morgan Posted February 12, 2009 Posted February 12, 2009 I need some advice, but I'm not sure this board will give me the best, but have at it, I don't care. You will ultimately choose whatever advice you think fits your desires. And the advice will range from one end to the other. So here is my end of it.....open the door, stuff a boot in her ass, and slam it just in time to push that boot up even farther.
Author Centuris Posted February 12, 2009 Author Posted February 12, 2009 I know you guys consistently tell me to bail/cut my losses, but I am honestly torn. All I have done is schedule a private session with a marriage counselor one week from now (one I am seeing by myself that my wife does not know about) and I am determined to hold the secret until then. I have some time off next week (kids will be occupied) and I kind of want to retreat somewhere alone to meditate or something, maybe write in a diary. I am thinking about recording a self-hypnosis script for myself in my own voice, one about self esteem and self reliance that I liked. At the moment I feel like the last fool that is trying to save my marriage, if there's a way, even though I have no stategy.
Owl Posted February 12, 2009 Posted February 12, 2009 OK, so you want to fix your marriage...that's your gameplan. Works for me...I've no issue either way. So, her 'webcam' activities and such are the bleeding wounds that will kill your marriage the quickest...so your first step is to get that to end...TONITE. Copy and backup all of your 'evidence'. Email it to yourself...as long as you're positive that she doesn't have access to your email. Then, print out copies. When she gets home tonite (or you do)...tell her point blank that the two of you need to talk. When you sit down at the table...slide your copies across to her, and say NOTHING. Most likely, she'll start screaming at you for invading her privacy. Sit quietly...let her scream. Wait til she's done. Then tell her that you aren't going to fight on that subject...PERIOD. Then inform her, in a no-nonsense (but NOT angry/raving/shouting kind of way) that this is OVER. She's got a choice...right this instant...to make. Either she chooses to remain married to you, or she's out the door. Tonite. If she leaves...let her. The moment she's out the door, cancel her credit cards, and block her from your joint accounts. She takes nothing out the door with her except what is HERS...nothing that is joint marriage stuff. She can take clothes and personal items...that's it. If she stays...then tell her that her 'webcam star days" are OVER. Walk over, and remove the router/cable modem/cables/etc... Take the webcam as well. And then INSIST that the two of you are starting marriage counseling...RIGHT NOW. Also make it clear...she's NEVER to contact ANY of those guys from the internet again...EVER...EVER. If she does...she's out the door. There is NO reason to haggle on this point at all. Make it clear to her that this is her ONE shot at rebuilding the marriage...you will NOT accept any kind of backstepping at all on this. Women cannot love a man that they don't respect. Be someone she can respect...take strong, positive actions to save your marriage. Do it without yelling, without raging at her, but do it firmly, and stick to your guns. Anything less...is a waste of time and effort.
Owl Posted February 12, 2009 Posted February 12, 2009 Oh...and as part of this...she's now got to PROVE her trustworthiness to you going forward...so that means she gives you access to her emails/IM's/cell phone/etc...point blank, right now. If there's anything else in there that's going to hurt you...she needs to tell you this, RIGHT NOW, so that you can be aware and deal with it. NO MORE LIES. She's now got to become an "open book" if she wants to try to rebuild the marriage.
Author Centuris Posted February 12, 2009 Author Posted February 12, 2009 Owl, that sounds like good advice but I don't feel like doing it that way. I am going to lie low until I meet with the counselor late next week. I will gather more info from the chats to better determine how far things have gone. One thing I have decided, though, I am opening a new bank account in my own name alone and will begin to reorient my financial affairs around that. The joint account will remain, as a shell with enough funds in it not to be too obvious. I will begin to go through and cut up the credit cards. Most of all I want to focus on my own personal well being first, and how I feel about myself. Even if my wife suddenly out of the blue wanted to do counseling I'm not sure I'm up for that now. I don't think an "open book" life (that she knows about) would be acceptable to her, based on my past experience. I'm even thinking about maritally separating from her without letting her know about my discoveries, just reading back to her every negative thing she's drilled into my head about how we are incompatible, she no longer loves me, yadda, yadda, yadda. Just "I've thought about things and I'm moving out". I will save the messages for any divorce that comes later on. Whatever I end up doing I have to trend carefully because of the kids. She has been doing this **** for almost two years and I just found out, what's the rush? My marriage sucked last year, last month, last week and yesterday. Why do I have to rush to do anything until I feel ready? I really want to get all my ducks in a row before I open the can of whoop ass.
65tr6 Posted February 12, 2009 Posted February 12, 2009 At this point I am not really interested in confronting my wife with evidence and seeing if she wants things to change. If I find nothing obvious, I would continue steady-as-she-goes, which mainly involves the 180 and working on my personal well-being. I dont know why you dont want to confront her now that you have the evidence. Dont you want to know what is going on ? Dont you want her to tell you everything she has been hiding from you for the last two years ? You are going to lie low knowing that she is cheating on you ? I could not do it for even half a day. Why the hell do you want to go to counselling by yourself ? Who needs help here ? What exactly are you expecting from your MC next week ? If and when you confront her, and I hope you do, be very calm and look her in the eye when you talk to her. Sit real close to her, facing her. It is not going to be easy but you can do it. I am not saying you should stay/even reconcile for the sake of kids. But you have every right to demand you know what is going on. And for your kids sake, please do that.
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