Centuris Posted January 29, 2009 Posted January 29, 2009 My marriage with my wife is at a crossroads. I've written about this elsewhere. She has shown active contempt towards me and has expressed a desire to have an open marriage (for her), and I'm simply not around to keep tabs on her a lot. She does not own a cell phone. She has a computer of her own that she uses exclusively late at night, and I have never been able to see what she is doing. I have ordered a cheap keylogger with the purpose of grabbing her email password (I believe I know her account name) and I would like to do a quick survey of what's in her email account over the past year and a half (since things have gotten bad). She has not expressed any particular desire to work on the marriage, but we have four kids and a lot of stuff going on, so we make things work on a daily basis more or less. I am mainly trying to follow Michele Weiner-Davis's "Do a 180" strategy, but I modify different little pieces of it based on day-to-day. I have also been reading up on divorce and separation, and no contact (or how that might work in a modified way given that we have young children). Here's my goal. I think with an affair, where there is smoke there may be fire. If I look in her email and immediately see a lot of crap, I have my answer as to what's going on. If I don't, I haven't proven she's not cheating of course. If I end up finding a lot of crap in her email, my initial response would be to quietly mentally and physically prepare for divorce or separation, without confronting her with my findings. At minimum I could open a new bank account and start to stockpile funds. Seeing evidence of an affair would help me decide not to put too much effort in reconciling or hoping to reconcile. At this point I am not really interested in confronting my wife with evidence and seeing if she wants things to change. If I find nothing obvious, I would continue steady-as-she-goes, which mainly involves the 180 and working on my personal well-being. I know some have said "never spy", it's unethical, and the 180 says "do not spy on your spouse". I believe what I'm doing is legal because we both own her computer. Tapping her email would give me more info to work with as I plot my next moves. Any thoughts?
2sure Posted January 29, 2009 Posted January 29, 2009 If you feel your marriage is at risk, and you want to protect yourself, your kids, and possibly your wife from herself, and you feel something is being hidden from you that affects all of your LIVES... Its a hard and unpleasant thing to do...but you've got to look.
Owl Posted January 29, 2009 Posted January 29, 2009 Given your "gut feeling" that something is going on...it's well worth investigating. I'd also suggest that you look at a detail record of her cell phone usage as well. Look for calls/texts to a specific number, ESPECIALLY during times when you know she's normally alone or could manage some privace to get away with it.
Maladjusted Posted January 29, 2009 Posted January 29, 2009 I'd also suggest that you look at a detail record of her cell phone usage as well. Look for calls/texts to a specific number, ESPECIALLY during times when you know she's normally alone or could manage some privace to get away with it. I think in this case it would have to be the home phone, since she doesn't have a cell phone my friend At any rate, YES get a keylogger. I'm not a big believer of wasting time, so if your wife is wasting your time and your life i'd start looking now.
jwi71 Posted January 29, 2009 Posted January 29, 2009 Um.... You will try to reconcile with your W if you do NOT find evidence of her cheating. Um, what about the active contempt and zero desire to work on the M part? I hate to say it but you are doomed to failure as long as she does NOT want to work on the M. You can't sell her what she doesn't want to buy. I don't know what this "180" plan is but I doubt it works to repair your M. It nor anything else will ever work as long as your W refuses to work on the M. All you can do is work on YOU. And I don't think you can do that with HER around. Ergo lose the dead weight. Because that is what she is. There is NO need to spy on her given her attitude and actions. Simply leave. However, you have a need to know. So do it. Anyone who claims that you should not spy on your spouse given her behavior is nuts. I suppose the alternative is to ask her if she is cheating and hope she suddenly develops integrity. Sheesh. But, my advice, given what you post is to leave regardless. YOU deserve better. YOU deserve a woman who loves and respects you.
stampdaddy Posted January 29, 2009 Posted January 29, 2009 Given your "gut feeling" that something is going on...it's well worth investigating. I'd also suggest that you look at a detail record of her cell phone usage as well. Look for calls/texts to a specific number, ESPECIALLY during times when you know she's normally alone or could manage some privace to get away with it. OWL, my good buddy, the OP said his wife doesnt have a cell phone. Good advice though....
whichwayisup Posted January 29, 2009 Posted January 29, 2009 Maybe she does have one and he just doesn't know about it..
Author Centuris Posted January 29, 2009 Author Posted January 29, 2009 The "180" is a process of mentally letting go of your spouse, in my view, and being happy with your own life by yourself. It reminds me of no contact in certain respects without removing the other person from your life. I have logistical reasons not to show my wife the door yet. Our day-to-day care for the kids "works" and 2 of my kids are not yet in kindergarten. It will be easier to manage care for the kids when they are all K-6 or above, which happens in 18 months. I have many things I can work on in my personal life and my positive mental attitude over the next year, without any interest on my wife's part in reconciling. I can stonewall the contempt while actively working on other family issues that she wants to work on day-to-day. If I find evidence of cheating or an emotional affair in her email, it simply underlines my future plans. Not finding anything leaves me in a gray area. I can't just up and leave, because of the kids. I need to move carefully. If anything I want the bias for custody to be on my side, so she can go move to another state (somewhere with more sun) and start her life over like she talks about sometimes.
Author Centuris Posted January 29, 2009 Author Posted January 29, 2009 How young are your kids? 10, 8, 5 and 3.
Author Centuris Posted January 29, 2009 Author Posted January 29, 2009 Maybe she does have one and he just doesn't know about it.. There are probably lots of things I don't know, but I only work on what I know, one step at a time.
stampdaddy Posted January 29, 2009 Posted January 29, 2009 10, 8, 5 and 3. looks like your due for another one soon....
Author Centuris Posted January 29, 2009 Author Posted January 29, 2009 looks like your due for another one soon.... That was seriously a running joke at my office for a while. I used to think about getting a vasectomy, but at this point I want to keep my options open. If my wife does get pregnant anytime soon I will be 100% sure it's not mine...
Reggie Posted January 29, 2009 Posted January 29, 2009 I can relate to your situation. I was unknowingly doing a form of the 180 long before I found out about the cheating. It was, essentially, the detachment thing one must do to survive while living with an abuser. Sounds like your wife is emotionally abusive with the contempt thing. This is very common among abusers, the less egregious forms of abuse which is harder to identify. Thye show disdain and disregard for you as a person. Lots of eye rolling, sarcasm , subtle put downs that type of thing. It is, actualy, at least as damaging as the raging type stuff, as it also adds to your confusion over whether it really is abuse, as it is subtler yet constant. They term this "ambient abuse' and it really takes its toll. So, I was doing the detachment thing, at first, instinctively, then based on the techniques I'd read about on sites supporting folks living with the disordered. In any case, it is pretty much a 180 and protects you to some extent. Problem is it leaves you starving after a while as your main source of intimacy is supposed to come fromyour spouse and you have no access to this need for closeness. Anyway, on your question, YES, investigate. Her behavior and attitude seem consistent with cheating. The real benefit to finding out about the cheating, for me, was that it got me off my ass and away from the abuse. Cheating was a very bright line fro me, whereas the confusing ambient abuse and hostility was much fuzzier. I had doubts about what ws going on with the abuse. No doubts about where cheating led me. It will help you deal with any guilt you may feel about having to get out, if there is cheating. And, it also helps with how others percieve you when you have to bail from an abusive situation. Folkd understand chesting leading to divorce and feel it is entirely justified. Try explaining to folks that you are breaking up your family because of constant disdain eye rolloing, sarcasm etc and you have a much tougher time making folks understand you justification for getting out. So, check it out. But, if it does not pan out and your wife still treats you like dirt, consider getting out regardless.
jwi71 Posted January 29, 2009 Posted January 29, 2009 The "180" is a process of mentally letting go of your spouse, in my view, and being happy with your own life by yourself. It reminds me of no contact in certain respects without removing the other person from your life. I have logistical reasons not to show my wife the door yet. Our day-to-day care for the kids "works" and 2 of my kids are not yet in kindergarten. It will be easier to manage care for the kids when they are all K-6 or above, which happens in 18 months. Fair enough. If I find evidence of cheating or an emotional affair in her email, it simply underlines my future plans. Not finding anything leaves me in a gray area.I can understand those feelings. My question to you is: Given what she says, given what she does and her attitude towards YOU - what makes you think she will WANT to change? I can't just up and leave, because of the kids. I need to move carefully. If anything I want the bias for custody to be on my side, so she can go move to another state (somewhere with more sun) and start her life over like she talks about sometimes.I can tell you from my experience that the current zeitgeist is joint custody unless there is an established verifiable history of abuse by one parent. The kids come first and the courts will choose the least disruptive course of action providing you two cannot agree on custody and visitation. But don't take my word on it - go see a lawyer. Get REAL legal advice on you, your situation and next steps. You don't have to file, simply spend the cash and get an hour with a lawyer. Hear it from him or her. Its VERY eye opening. Good luck my friend. I hope it ends in the way YOU want it to.
whichwayisup Posted January 29, 2009 Posted January 29, 2009 10, 8, 5 and 3. Is it possible your wife is suffering from depression or something? So, if you find she's been flirting with someone online, then you're going to divorce her. If you find she's taken it to another level, (actually met up with someone and is having an affair) you'll divorce. If she isn't, I hope that you both talk and figure out HOW to make your marriage better. Do counselling and fix things. What is the point of living day to day, JUST for the kids sake if neither of you are going to make an effort to recapture what brought you two together in the first place? 4 kids and a marriage, a life built together... You two seem to not connect and talk, spend time together anymore for whatever reason.. Look into the depression thing, she could be wondering who SHE is, a mom of 4, a wife and she (I assume) isn't working.. NOT that any of that is an excuse to cheat or find some attention online, but it could explain her frame of mind. Feeling out of place, not sexy etc..
Author Centuris Posted January 29, 2009 Author Posted January 29, 2009 Is it possible your wife is suffering from depression or something? She seems pretty happy...often, happy as a clam. She just doesn't like me, describes me as like "a big greasy meal that you want to puke up but can't for some reason". So, if you find she's been flirting with someone online, then you're going to divorce her. I would not divorce for flirting, just a measure of where her head is at. I would divorce for an actual physical affair if I became aware of it. If she isn't, I hope that you both talk and figure out HOW to make your marriage better. Do counselling and fix things. She has made it very clear multiiple times she has zero interest in making the "marriage better" or doing counselling. So, I don't mention it anymore. make an effort to recapture what brought you two together in the first place? 4 kids and a marriage, a life built together.... I used to think like that, but I'm not going to long for a past that she has no interest in. I am more interested in building a better future for myself (alone if necessary) and my children. You two seem to not connect and talk, spend time together anymore for whatever reason.. We talk fairly often because she approaches me. I talk about whatever she wants to and show interest in her day. I volunteer little about myself anymore. If she uses contemptual words or phrases, I end the conversation and leave. Main point is I am not going to long for something (our marriage together) that she does not value anymore, or buy into her low view of me.
Owl Posted January 29, 2009 Posted January 29, 2009 So tell me...what is there about this marriage that you want to save? I don't see anything to build from...if she's that horrific in how she deals with you, you and your kids would be FAR better off without her.
Author Centuris Posted January 29, 2009 Author Posted January 29, 2009 Sometimes I get confused about what I want because she can occasionally be very nice, up to a point. She is nice to the three younger ones but has lots of conflict with our oldest child, a girl. For now, all I want is to gather more information about how she operates, while I mainly spend time working on myself. I also have to focus on my work because my finances are precarious. If I can make a few improvements in myself over the next three months and reach a few of my own goals, that would make me happy. Then I think about the three months after that. Again, not sure what I want from the marriage. Sometimes I think my wife might change, or I can force certain changes in the way she treats me by not taking her crap (without actually leaving). That is, for example, can you change the dynamics of an abusive relationship without leaving the relationship. Of course in my dreams I'd like things to get better, I had a very vivid dream about having sex with her the other day. Even if I'm going to leave the marriage, I want to be deliberate and it will take me some time.
jwi71 Posted January 29, 2009 Posted January 29, 2009 She seems pretty happy...often, happy as a clam. She just doesn't like me, describes me as like "a big greasy meal that you want to puke up but can't for some reason". She SAID that to you? To your face? WHY do YOU want to remain M to her? *shakes head*
stampdaddy Posted January 29, 2009 Posted January 29, 2009 She SAID that to you? To your face? WHY do YOU want to remain M to her? *shakes head* Quote: Originally Posted by Centuris She seems pretty happy...often, happy as a clam. She just doesn't like me, describes me as like "a big greasy meal that you want to puke up but can't for some reason". That made me throw up MY greasy meal that I just had for lunch thinking that she said that to his face....
Author Centuris Posted January 29, 2009 Author Posted January 29, 2009 She SAID that to you? To your face? WHY do YOU want to remain M to her? *shakes head* She calls me a doormat. Maybe she has me pegged. I think I will search on amazon now for "how to stop being a doormat" type books.
Reggie Posted January 29, 2009 Posted January 29, 2009 If you have not already done so, you might want to start researching the cluster B personality disorders. Check out info on BPD and NPD. I do not have enough info on your wife,but some of the stuff you describe was eeirly familiar: the disrespect, the verbal abuse, counseling being anathema. Big Red flags for a personality disorder. You will probably never get a definitive diagnosis, as , tpically, like your wife, these folks run from any form of counseling like the plague. But, it might open your eyes to what you are dealing with. It is very common for them to really start butting heads with the older kids as the kids become less maleable and more aware of all the double standards, contradictions and overall abuse. The kids pose a real threat to these PD folks as the kids are not restrained by any romantic feelings or sense of duty to an irrational person. They call them on their **** and it gets ugly. If she has a PD, you may well end up with your kids, which is good for the kids. No normal person talks to their spouse like your wife. I was called some incredible things.
jasminetea Posted January 29, 2009 Posted January 29, 2009 Seems to me that you don't need a keylogger, just to make your mind up, finally, to divorce. You have enough reason
Author Centuris Posted January 29, 2009 Author Posted January 29, 2009 If you have not already done so, you might want to start researching the cluster B personality disorders. Check out info on BPD and NPD. Yes, when I first began my discovery and learning process about a year ago I read up on BPD and decided she might have it. I still think that. To answer the earlier questions to me like "why do you put up with this marriage", etc. It's partly this background knowledge that she might have BPD and be "ill". Therefore, if she is "ill" I become concerned about her and can forgive her for this and that. The kids pose a real threat to these PD folks as the kids are not restrained by any romantic feelings or sense of duty to an irrational person. They call them on their **** Aside from my enabling my oldest daughter to be a little bit of a princess, the situation is very much as you have described. From what I have read BPD is very hard to treat. In a way, it doesn't matter whether my wife is ill or not, I still have to decide how much of my life I want to commit to this situation. I am approaching the opinion that I may want to walk away from it and invest my life (I only have one) in a relationship with someone else (when the time is right, etc). Sometimes I wonder if knowledge is good for anything.
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