Reggie Posted January 29, 2009 Posted January 29, 2009 Gee Reg, very helpful. Glad to see you making good use of your day with that irreplaceable and relevant commentary! I'm here for support, K. I admire your handle on this and the way you have figured this out. So, you go girl.
LavendarGirl Posted January 29, 2009 Posted January 29, 2009 Kismet, You are grasping at straws here. Your feelings won't change for him, whether you call yourselves lovers, friends, or booty callers. Maybe you aren't ready for the affair to be over? I mean, maybe you are willing still to be the OW so that you can get your physical needs met and concentrate on your school? Until you are ready to shake him, it's not going to completely happen. But meeting him in person, calling it a friendship, just so you can get a teensy sliver of an emotionally and physically unavailable man is really going to do a number on your heart in the long run.
Confused4Now Posted January 29, 2009 Posted January 29, 2009 Kismet, you've been told by tons of posters for a very long time now that the "just friends" never works...not to mention that you HAD to have seen that same advice given out dozens of times here if you've read any other threads but your own. You already know the answers here... WOW!!! I guess this is what they call tough love!!!!
bentnotbroken Posted January 29, 2009 Posted January 29, 2009 Kismet, you know all the answers to all the questions you ask. You are just trying to reason in your mind why it is okay for you to continue with you charade. You say you don't want his W to find out, but your actions say otherwise. You say you aren't a bad person, but your actions are bad for so many. Step outside yourself and this situation, where will you be in a year, 2 years, another 4? Say you do get together with him, how will you look in his family's face and know what you did to aid the destruction of another human being. That's what you seem not to understand, it isn't just you, another woman and family are being gas lighted by you and him, by your actions. That is right or fair to anyone. NO one deserves that type of emotional abuse, and I can tell you the feeling of knowing something is wrong but being lied to your face, it messes with you mind. You can deny what is really happening, say he is the one married, but you are a contributing factor in his behavior of another human being.
Owl Posted January 29, 2009 Posted January 29, 2009 WOW!!! I guess this is what they call tough love!!!! What's so tough about it? It's the same question she's asked in various forms before. You and I both know that I'm right...she does already know the answer to this question...and the sooner that she comes to that realization, the sooner she'll TRULY be able to start healing. I'm sorry if you felt this was "tough"...it wasn't meant that way at all. It was meant to be a "bottom line up front" answer to get her moving in the right direction. You should see it when I intend to be tough...that's a whole different critter.
whichwayisup Posted January 29, 2009 Posted January 29, 2009 Yeah I was gonna say, that's not tough love. What Owl said was just stating the obvious. It's a known fact that one cannot be "just friends" with someone after an affair. Too many feelings are still there and it's just going to pour on MORE pain and bring on confusion. Why bother?
IfWishesWereHorses Posted January 29, 2009 Posted January 29, 2009 (and to be honest Im skeptical myself....but....) but what?? Ofcourse you are skeptical... you know better than anyone how this plays out. That same day I told him that if I had to choose between sleeping with him again and never being able to see him after a period of time if he freaks out from the guilt again, OR, to NOT sleep with him anymore but be able to see him regularly as friends, that I would rather just be friends because, in all honesty, yes, I love sex with him, but I also really just...love him. You love him... and will or will not sleep with him depending on what he chooses as long as you can be his friend. If you are in love with this man, can you ever be happy with just friends? He isn't free to love y ou back the way you need/want. What's changed Kismet??? Seems like exactly the same boat you've been allowing yourself to be swept away in. When I don't see him or talk to him, I miss him terribly. So this is your answer?? So, I proposed this to him: I said, obviously, that I enjoy sex with him, and want it , but if it means he's going to keep having sporadic bouts of freaking out from guilt and not speaking to me here and there, I couldn't deal with that rollercoaster, and I'd honestly rather be friends if it meant I could just see him, talk to him, hug him. It's the first time since I've known him I have tried to put my foot down and say that if he ever tried to just break things off with me again , then that would be it, so either we do this, or we just stay friends. It may not sound like much when I type it out, but I've never threatened him before with being the one to end things before. Never even hinted at it before. So you threatened that if he tries to break it off again you will let him???? That's a threat??? You're willing to continue this if you can just hug and talk to him??? When ever he happens to come back around??? So, he writes me an email two days later that says something along the lines of "hey babe. I've been thinking the past couple of days, a lot, and I think i want to try to take you up on your offer of being friends without fooling around. Apparently my ability to not drive myself crazy with paranoia after we hook up hasn't diminished, so maybe it would be good for both of us to try being platonic. But I do miss you too, so tell me when you're free this week and we'll just hang out or something. xx" Well, there you go. Something to look forward to. Ofcourse, it isn't possible to be platonic with someone that you are in love with so you get to expend you valuable emotional energy trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. Sounds like fun. So, in a way I was happy, because it meant that perhaps he cares about me enough that he also wants to be able to see me, even if it means nothing physical happens between us. Then... Awesome, amazing, passionate, ridiculously good sex ensues. All the stress I've been feeling for weeks seems to melt away as we lay there afterwards for a couple hours just talking and touching. OK, so maybe not. The last couple of weeks we've been speaking in a very different way....I don't know how to describe it. Almost like in the back of his mind he's wonderinf if he's really going to stay married to this woman forever. hmmmm???? I tell him in a joking manner that I wish we'd just keep sleeping together until my test was over in May because I am a much more relaxed and focused person when Im getting laid regularly (and I really am, it isn't a line. Maybe it's not normal for a girl but my drive is ridiculously high, to the point where I can't focus if I haven't had any in a while. I'm like a freaking man or something.) He says, "aren't all people more happy if they're getting laid?" I say "no, not really. Some people, they'll do it once in a while, they don't necessarily hate it, but they could take it or leave it, maybe they just do it cause they think their partner wants it, not because they're very interested in it, it doesn't make much difference to them if they have it". he's quiet for a second and mutters, "You've just described my wife to a T" and grunts in frustration. So you are comparing your sex drive to hers??? Why Kismet? Did you compare your sex drive to hers on the days that you have spent mothering 4 young children? Is that all you wanted him to believe that you have to offer... cause I'm guessing he's figured that part out by now. Just like four years ago when he told me there was no "spark" between him and her. Four years.... that's unbelievable. The more we talk, the more Im convinced that their marriage is more like two friends than two people who have a romantic connection. or a booty call????? I don't sleep with him out of pity that he's lacking a solid marriage. I do it because , shocking, I really like him. I may love sex, but I don't do it with people I'm not very interested in generally, because otherwise it's usually boring when there isn't a good spark or connection. That's why YOU do or don't sleep with someone. What about him? Anyway, I guess after all this rambling, Im sitting here and wondering if a friendship is even possible. Obviously it wont work too well if we let ourselves be alone, but, if we only met in public, or had lunch, or something like that, nothing physical can happen, right? It's not like we're going to have sex in the middle of a restaurant. Right, but you will be pining away all the time. Taking all of his words and deciding what they must mean as far as your future and where you stand with him. (Kismet couples in love don't have to do that.) I guess Im just trying to convince myself that this could work because, the last two months before we saw each other again recently, it's indescribable how much I missed him. Well, if you missed then ofcourse it could work... So I guess, perhaps not even specifically in my situation, but in any situation where two people have such an intense connection and sexual tension, do you think it's even remotely possible for them to be "friends" if they REALLY try? granted, perhaps their track record of being platonic hasn't been the most impressive, but is it possible ? Has it worked so far?? Don't know. My heads a little....swirling right now. But I feel a little happy. I haven't felt that way in a while. I feel....calm. I studied today for six hours! I saw my psychiatrist and he said it was the first time since he's started to see me over four months that I've seemed even remotely content. You should meet my friend Jose Cuervo. He does the same thing for me, is always there when I need him... and is every bit as toxic. Infact, I'm thinking of telling him that it's over .... unless he agrees to just be friends . Kismet, I'm sorry you're in this situation, but it's false happiness and requires that you lie to yourself in order to attain those few hours of contentment. Anything that has the power to fill you up has the power to bring you down. I wouldn't trust that to anyone other than myself.
NoIDidn't Posted January 29, 2009 Posted January 29, 2009 The more we talk, the more Im convinced that their marriage is more like two friends than two people who have a romantic connection. I change my mind. It can work. It obviously does for him and his W.
Reggie Posted January 29, 2009 Posted January 29, 2009 Just the other day, as I was talking to my banker, I inquired if she would mind if I went down on her while she reconciled my checking account. She suggested I eat a tuna sandwich instead as she did not want to be distracted.:bunny:
Author KismetGirl Posted January 30, 2009 Author Posted January 30, 2009 Just the other day, as I was talking to my banker, I inquired if she would mind if I went down on her while she reconciled my checking account. She suggested I eat a tuna sandwich instead as she did not want to be distracted.:bunny: you should have done it. if you're any good she might have added a couple of zeros.
bentnotbroken Posted January 30, 2009 Posted January 30, 2009 you should have done it. if you're any good she might have added a couple of zeros. :laugh::lmao::laugh: If she will add zeros, I will do it.:lmao:
Author KismetGirl Posted January 30, 2009 Author Posted January 30, 2009 I change my mind. It can work. It obviously does for him and his W. *sigh* He's more obligated to stay with his wife. They have three kids, seven years of marriage and a house. He works, she doesn't. Granted, men with more kids and years of marriage have left their wives before, but for anyone that isn't a huge assh**e, it really isn't something you can just up and do just because you might like someone else. We're not getting into that argument, it's been had before. Half the people here seem to think getting a divorce is like waking up and just telling someone you feel like splitting all the crap in half and telling the kids to choose who to live with on alternate weekends and maybe some holidays. It's a very difficult thing to do. He is not, however, obligated to stay with me, we aren't married, and he has alot more at stake with the woman who has his children. I've never pretended to be more important to him than the kids are. Hell, his wife isn't more important to him than his kids are. But she's their mother. We have had periods in our 4+ years of knowing each other that we DID remain platonic. Granted, the longest period lasted several months, but it was there. It didn't last three years, but considering we used to work together every day, it was harder back then and we've done it before. We used to go to games at the stadium, out for drinks, out to lunch, be alone and nothing would happen despite all the tension. It's gotten alot harder now.....but I think that after 4+ years you do begin to care for someone, epecially when she's the only person besides youre wife you've been with in almost 8 years. I know he cares about his wife, he'd be a monster not to....mother of his children, share seven years being married, probably a year or two longer knowing each other. Hell, MY parents still love each other, but 15 years later Im pretty sure they made the right decision by getting a divorce. Took them ages to get around to it, until me and my siblings were a tad older. Why? Cause divorce is hard dammit. It's not fun, no one wants to do it if they are on amiable terms with their spouse, especially when there's small children involved. Ugh, I have the worst migraine right now, I don't know why Im rehashing old arguments from threads long past. The point of this one was to think if me and him had any long term potential to be just friends, because it's very....."forever" to think "wow, I will never see this person again". I can't think of anyone I've ever just never seen again who I cared about. Anyone I broke up with, frienships that ended, I got over them pretty quickly because they ended for good reason. I've never, EVER loved someone and had to say "well, I know that you're going to be down the block from me at least twice a week at work, and I'll probably see your car on my walk to my house, and I'll hear about you from mutual friends, and I'll hear from your brother on facebook sometimes, but I will NEVER see or talk to you again so long as I live". Someone, rather than making fun of me and giving sarcasm, at least PELASE understand why I desperately grasp at a concept of friendship, however ludicrous, or why he might even try to offer this option to me once in a while. It is not just sex. It is not just physical lust. It is two people who have met at the way wrong time, and wrong place, and are obviously having a hell of a time getting over that feeling. I wish I knew why something snapped in your head with one particular person and makes you go crazy over them over anyone else you've met. I really wish I did, but I've no clue and I guess neither does anyone else.... Ah this is pointless. Any question asked will have two viewpoints I guess. I only get frustrated when responses become sarcastic or mean. But I really do have a massive migraine pending at the moment and my left eye is getting blurry so Im going to go now and lay down.....sorry to have offended anyone. It's hard to let go of something you care about. I've always been stubborn , guess this woldn't be any different...
bentnotbroken Posted January 30, 2009 Posted January 30, 2009 Kismet, did you read what you wrote, you said desperate. Why would you be so desperate for a friendship with a person who has proved he can't even be decent enough to honor his W's feelings? What is inside you that makes you feel the need to be his friend or you have him as yours? There is something else happening with you, are you afraid of the success that you would accomplish without him. Are you sabotaging yourself?
Lucky_One Posted January 30, 2009 Posted January 30, 2009 OK. Try a friendship. Call his wife, ask her to get a babysitter, and the three of you go out to dinner. That's what friends do.
NoIDidn't Posted January 30, 2009 Posted January 30, 2009 Someone, rather than making fun of me and giving sarcasm, at least PELASE understand why I desperately grasp at a concept of friendship, however ludicrous, or why he might even try to offer this option to me once in a while. Who said I was being sarcastic? I was serious. He's good at the friendship after a romantic relationship thing. His W should know. She gets left with the *fruit* of THAT friendship on a regular basis. So seriously, he's capable of having a friendship with someone after the end of the romance. I hope she finds out how much he values her friendship, though. Its only fair.
Author KismetGirl Posted January 30, 2009 Author Posted January 30, 2009 OK. Try a friendship. Call his wife, ask her to get a babysitter, and the three of you go out to dinner. That's what friends do. I would, but I think she might figure it out if she saw us together. I'm not sure she's down with the polygamy thing. She's obviously good with the being-in-denial thing, however. That seems to work for her really well. Anyway, I've spoken with her before. Nice woman, pleasant and etc, but mildly dull. I doubt we'd have been friends even if I wasn't sleeping with her H. Thanks for the suggestion, though.
NoIDidn't Posted January 30, 2009 Posted January 30, 2009 I would, but I think she might figure it out if she saw us together. I'm not sure she's down with the polygamy thing. She's obviously good with the being-in-denial thing, however. That seems to work for her really well. Anyway, I've spoken with her before. Nice woman, pleasant and etc, but mildly dull. I doubt we'd have been friends even if I wasn't sleeping with her H. Thanks for the suggestion, though. Kismet, THIS is the whole point about a friendship with ANY married person. If you are friends with them, that friendship should extend a little to their spouse and not be limited to only them. Especially when you a friend primarily to the spouse of the opposite sex. If you can't be her friend or she might figure things out, you guys will NEVER just be friends. So stop kidding yourself. Sounds like your man has a Madonna/Whore Complex, though.
bentnotbroken Posted January 30, 2009 Posted January 30, 2009 I would, but I think she might figure it out if she saw us together. I'm not sure she's down with the polygamy thing. She's obviously good with the being-in-denial thing, however. That seems to work for her really well. Anyway, I've spoken with her before. Nice woman, pleasant and etc, but mildly dull. I doubt we'd have been friends even if I wasn't sleeping with her H. Thanks for the suggestion, though. Do you see what is happening, you are her. You are in denial as well, how's working for you? It is probably working about the same way for her.
Author KismetGirl Posted January 30, 2009 Author Posted January 30, 2009 Kismet, did you read what you wrote, you said desperate. Why would you be so desperate for a friendship with a person who has proved he can't even be decent enough to honor his W's feelings? What is inside you that makes you feel the need to be his friend or you have him as yours? There is something else happening with you, are you afraid of the success that you would accomplish without him. Are you sabotaging yourself? Ah, well, it feels like desperation when you're at a loss for things sometimes, I guess. Suppose I was trying to find a middle ground where I could still somehow see him, without all the guilt and frustrations that come along as far of the sneaking around....but I suppose it's probably not, well, probable. I'm not afraid of success.....I'm certainly not sabotaging myself on purpose. You know what's weird, the first time we broke up, what.....3 years ago or something, the first big "break" we had, when I saw it coming I got SO nervous , because I was SO sure I would be DEVASTATED, I was already mentally preparing for how horrible I'd feel.....but that first time, I was upset for a few weeks and then was surprised at how i was ok. I have to admit that this was in large part, I think, because I did meet someone else, though, who I did like very much and this really helped to get me over MM in a way, or at least not be so upset for so long. I probably should have stopped then, because 4+ years into it I am obviously not as easily able to even find a distraction away from him. I feel pretty bad, sometimes, when I read responses to my threads on here, and I wonder what on earth Im doing with myself. Im on cloud nine when I see him, and then when I dont see or hear from him for like, 24 hours, I get . Was looking at photo of his wife online today. Wonder what she'd do if she found out. I mean, rather than being suspicious , just finding outright that he's cheated on her for so long. I wonder if she'd leave him or not. Somehow I doubt it.
Author KismetGirl Posted January 30, 2009 Author Posted January 30, 2009 Kismet, THIS is the whole point about a friendship with ANY married person. If you are friends with them, that friendship should extend a little to their spouse and not be limited to only them. Especially when you a friend primarily to the spouse of the opposite sex. If you can't be her friend or she might figure things out, you guys will NEVER just be friends. So stop kidding yourself. Sounds like your man has a Madonna/Whore Complex, though. Yeah....I don't think we're thinking very far ahead with this one, I'll give you that. I'm friends with his best friend's wife, other mutual friends, friendly with his brother.....but def not his wife. And what do you mean by the Madonna/Whore complex now? Do tell.
bentnotbroken Posted January 30, 2009 Posted January 30, 2009 But does it matter what she does. The fact is she is married to him, and probably in pain. You are the ow and probably in a lot more pain than you are willing to admit. You can do something about it, with fewer strings attached. You may not be sabotaging yourself from your perspective,but from here you are killing your emotional health not to mention your spiritual one. Headaches, nerves, desperate thoughts, does this seem like a path to ultimate success? Maybe for a short time, but then reality sets in and the wounds are bigger and bleed a hell of a lot longer.
Aquarius Rising Posted January 30, 2009 Posted January 30, 2009 I'm in recovery from an A ..... that started out physical and beccame an EA lasting 14mths ..... I'm on 18th day of NC and have not spoken to him for 6 weeks (and counting!!!!) We could not possibly be friends ............ no matter how hard we might have liked to try ...... when you are attached in the way that we were ..... (and it sounds like you and this MM are the same) there is no alternative but to tear yourself off each other..... but that can only happen once you come to the overwhelming conclusion that it will NEVER be the relationship you desire whilst one of you is married. You can NEVER be truly happy together like this. You can prolong the grieving ..... by kidding yourself ......... but sooner or later you've gotta do the grief stuff ............ and it's not easy ......... and I hurt daily .... but not so much because I miss him now....... but because I devalued myself for too long ............. and I'm angry about that now ......... but like many here it can take a while for us to see that. When reach that place, get support where you can....... find strategies that work ............ and walk away.......... it's the only FAIR thing to do for everyone involved. If he really wants to be with you .... he will leave his wife eventually and be on his own .......... then you can try the friendship thing perhaps. Fundamentally there are only two things we must learn in life ........ one is how to love ........ the other is how to let go....... and sometimes to truly love means to let go. Good Luck AR
Lucky_One Posted January 30, 2009 Posted January 30, 2009 I would, but I think she might figure it out if she saw us together. I'm not sure she's down with the polygamy thing. She's obviously good with the being-in-denial thing, however. That seems to work for her really well. Anyway, I've spoken with her before. Nice woman, pleasant and etc, but mildly dull. I doubt we'd have been friends even if I wasn't sleeping with her H. Thanks for the suggestion, though. She'd figure what out? You're just going to be friends. Who said anything about polygamy?? That is a very far stretch from friendship. Unless, of course, the you are planning on squishing your boobs in his face and draping your legs all over him in the restaurant. And he probably shouldn't eat you while you are looking at the wine list. FRIENDS go out. That is what friends DO.
NoIDidn't Posted January 30, 2009 Posted January 30, 2009 And what do you mean by the Madonna/Whore complex now? Do tell. You should be telling me as I thought you said you were counseling people not so long ago as part of school. The Madonna part is the motherly, nurturing part. He sees his W as this. He complains about it, but respects her for that part in his life. The Whore part is the uninhibited sexual woman. Not calling you a *whore* as you are only sleeping with him, but this one would be you. For men that suffer with this affliction, the *Whore* part usually loses out as its not the more acceptable position to be in. Its like he's denying his own sexuality in this. He'd rather *appear* saintly and fatherly, but deep down he has a hidden, extremely sexual side. Hence, my definition and understanding of Madonna/Whore Complex. But I am no therapist or counsellor.
Author KismetGirl Posted January 30, 2009 Author Posted January 30, 2009 You should be telling me as I thought you said you were counseling people not so long ago as part of school. The Madonna part is the motherly, nurturing part. He sees his W as this. He complains about it, but respects her for that part in his life. The Whore part is the uninhibited sexual woman. Not calling you a *whore* as you are only sleeping with him, but this one would be you. For men that suffer with this affliction, the *Whore* part usually loses out as its not the more acceptable position to be in. Its like he's denying his own sexuality in this. He'd rather *appear* saintly and fatherly, but deep down he has a hidden, extremely sexual side. Hence, my definition and understanding of Madonna/Whore Complex. But I am no therapist or counsellor. People see it differently, hence me asking how you saw it :-) Anyway, I would think it's obvious he's supressing SOMETHING....you don't have an affair if everything is peachy keen. He's obviously a very sexual person, as am I, and he's made it very aware that it's not a very important part of a relationship for his wife as she's of the sort who will begrudingly sleep with him if he begs for it, but doesn't seem very interested in it, which i suppose is very different from my very obvious sexual interest in him and the way I express it to him in and out of the bedroom. Granted, Im not a wife or mother, but I like to think I have that potential. I see no reason why a woman cant be both madonna and whore, if you will. A person should not give up their identity as a woman, as a romantic partner, just because they become a wife and mother. He obviously told himself when he got married that these roles are seperate, but he was fooling himself. he's admitted it before...."i married W because she felt comfortable, like home. And she's a good mom". Not, "because I was in love" or "because she's beautiful" or "because we had such a great time together" or "she makes me laugh". No...."because she felt comfortable and she's been a good mom". Just seems to me that a marriage shouldn't have to choose between the two elements of the complex.....but people often fool themselves into thinking they can live without something....and then they're not totally happy....and end up cheating for four years. I'd like to think that when I get married one day, despite stress, kids, etc, I'd make that effort to keep a relationship with my husband. It doesnt take much to take ten minutes at the end of the day when the kids are asleep to take a shower, crawl into bed with your husband, and just enjoy each other. It really doesn't People who blame a lack of passion or love in their marriage on kids and stress are making excuses. My own mom told me once that, despite it all, if there were some things to do over again, one of them would have been to not ignore my dad so much once the kids starting being born because she felt that they stopped paying attention to each other and made it all about us. A man and wife, they are human beings, they aren't reproduction machines....right? I wish I could make him see and acknowledge this stuff about himself. I know no one will believe me, but even if it meant he ended up with his wife, this is how I know I do love him....I really would like him to be happy. If he came and told me that he had worked things out with his wife and he was genuinly happy now and they worked on things, I'd accept it eventually. I would be upset, but I'd know that he's staying with her because he is in love with her. Right now I don't think he is, and that upsets me, I guess....that I can't be with him , and that he's not even in love with her.
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