Who comes first?

[KismetGirl]

There is nothing easier about leaving when children are grown. People are closer to retirement or in some cases about to retire if they didnt have kids in their 20s.

 

KG once again you are seeing things in a way that allows you to believe MM is staying for the children. He HAD 2 children or 3 is it while he was with you. This is not a man who is leaving.

 

Divorce is never easy for anyone regardless of their age.

 

There are always a million reasons not to leave. And really that is the way it should be. Marriage is a committment that should not easily be broken. Sometimes ending a marriage is better than staying married, some 50% of the population seems to think so...

 

But to say that its easier for someone to leave when they are older is simply not true.

 

agreed, it;s different for everyone. Maybe that didnt come out the right way, but was just trying to imply it depends on a person's stage of life and how they interpret what is most important to them at that moment, despite the fact that another person might make them happier in a romantic way, they may decide the security or way of life, or children or whatever is more important at that stage in their lives. It's why some men can leave young, some men can only leave later, and some men can never leave at all, even if they kind of want to.....or married women, whatever. Of the MM's I know who HAVE left to be with another woman, and for some reason I know more than I care to, however.....nearly every single one was either older and/or felt their kids were old enough to deal wth them not being home all the time , or else the wife found out and kicked them out. Hell, I know of a couple MM's who told me they had exact ages for the kids that they were waiting for. One man who Im purely friends with, so he's not feeding me lines, told me he had a mistress who waited for him for 7 years, because he told her he wanted to wait until his youngest child was at least 12 years old to leave (don't know why he felt 12 was enough, but that was his own artificial timeline for himsef.) Of course, after 7 years she actually got sick of waiting for him and met someone else. But, I know of only ONE MM who left his wife and two young kids because he was "in love" with another woman. I know SOOO many men who cheat on thier spouses it's sort of ridiculous at this point, which is possibly why I get so cynical. I don't think I know ANYONE who has been married 6+ years and on their first marriage who has been completely faithful. Kind of sad. I do, however, know of plenty of people in their second marriages who HAVE been totally faithful to the best of my knowledge, which makes me think as they got older they stopped fooling themselves about what was the "right" kind of person for them. Then again, lots of second marriages fail too.

 

Anyway, like I said, different for everyone......I just think that of all the cliches out there, the whole "kids" thing is usually the hardest one to get over, it seems to me.....I also see lots of people who post on the infidelity boards who say "well my husband left me for another woman, but we dont have any kids, so it was easier....". I see that ALL the time....Meh, whatever, its a pointless argument, almost all of these are, there's always like ten sides and opinions to every story no?

[jj33]

Thats the whole point. Different things are most important to people at different times of their lives.

 

Really its pointless - why speculate on whether someone else should leave their marriage or whether its more likely for them to do so at one point of their life or another. that is a very very personal decision. Noone can say what is right for someone else at any stage of his or her life, except in exceptional circumstances where there is physical or emotional abuse.

 

And who really cares? If someone isnt leaving. They arent leaving. It doesnt matter whether its because they love their spouse, they love their kids, they love their lives, they are afraid of whatever it is.

 

The bottom line is the result is the same. If they arent leaving, the arent leaving.

[jj33]

I think its very easy to get caught up in why and its ok because its the children. Or its ok because its x.

 

But why is it OK? Does it REALLY matter who is being put first if you are the OW/OM? The fact is you cant share their life with them.

 

Some people would say that an MM/MW is putting the OW/OM first because if they have limited time available outside of work and they choose to spend a good percentage of it with the OP, then the (I will stereotype here)

 

the W is taking care of children all day, feeding them dinner, getting them to bed making sure they do their homework etc. Even absent an A, in many cases men dont see much of their children from M-F. The W may not see much of her H.

 

But if you add to that, the idea that perhaps he COULD if he werent taking a few hours every day or a few times a week spending time with OW, then who is really coming first?

 

The MM is coming first in 99% of all cases.

 

And I think that is the point no matter how much you sugarcoat it.

 

HE is coming first because his W is taking care of his family. The OW is meeting whatever needs he feels arent being met in the marriage.

 

He is not accountable to either one of them for his delegation of needs because the W is usually unaware and the OW accepts it.

 

An OW who has fallen in love often HAS to believe and defend the BS reasons he gives (oh my kids are young oh its my catholic upbringing, my inlaws, my career or whatever it is)

 

because otherwise she'd feel like an idiot for continuing to put up with being on call as and when monsieur decides he is free.

 

The problem is the OW doesnt see it most of the time. I was like that. It never occured to me to question whether he could leave because of course he couldnt. Now in retrospect I can see of course he wouldnt want to, it would be very complicated and public and all sorts of things but he could if he really wanted to do it.

 

And if he was really miserable he would (maybe). Look Prince Charles did it and he had young children. If he could do it, anyone can.

 

The fact is the majority of these men are doing what they think is best for them.

 

The ones who do it for more than a few months are selfish. If they were so concerned with their famillies and their children, they would not take precious time with the OW and they would spend it with their little ones who rarely get to see them.

 

So much for my kids come first. They come first end of story. For all their nice words and gestures etc and the romantic spin they put on everything, the rest of us are just part of the staff. They may be fond they may love us, their needs are number one.

 

I realise there are exceptions but this is typically the case.

[OWoman]

Correct me if Im wrong, OWoman, but you and your STBH/MM are both "older" and the kids are grown, right?

 

I think people are comparing MM's who are "young" family men, with small kids, to MM's who have older children and are older themselves. I feel that those are two completely different places in life. It is MUCH harder to leave when you've just begun to really raise a family, and kids are still young, and you aren't sure how to change everything. That's why those guys go back and forth, back and forth, and often go back to their wives, because they weren't really sure if they should have left to begin with, and the kids often bring tremendous guilt if they are still small and they have the thought of not being with them or another man coming in to raise them.

 

When an MM is older, and his kids are pretty much grown up, I feel like he can start to focus more on HIS wants or HIS happiness just a little bit more. He can start to feel mildly less guilty about leaving, he's perhaps had to deal with the bullsh** of an abusive spouse (as in your case) for so long that they've FINALLY reached their "enough is enough" point so that they can leave and be happy about it.

 

Sorry, but as you said earlier, no two situations are alike, and I firmly believe that the "place" they are at their lives has a big say on what decision they make. You said yourself that your MM was married for 30 years to someone that made him miserable....why stay that long, then? Im guessing cause of those same "cliched" reasons, right? He was younger, the kids were younger, he tried to do "the right thing", maybe money issues, etc etc. Sure, some might say that the longer you stay in a marriage, the more someone is "set int heir ways" and doesn't want to leave, but I think when people get older you can often reflect a little more on yourself and think "ok, my kids are grown up. I still have a good 20-30 years left on this planet, at least. Do I want to spend it with someone who doesn't make me that happy?". I think it's a little easier to be selfish about that question's answer than when it's "my kids arent even in elementary school yet, my wife doesn't work, i can barely afford the mortgage on my brand new house which i've worked so hard to finally obtain, my inlaws like me, our mutual friends are great, and i'll look like a big shmuck if i dump them all now".

 

KG most of the MMs I've had in my past have been midlifers - and all of them first time in As. Some have had very young kids (especially if they've had younger Ws, particularly second Ms) and some have had older kids. Those who left their Ws weren't just those with older kids - particularly if they'd been M before and had good D arrangements with joint custody, they knew they weren't going to "lose" the kids. It really does all depend. Each case is different.

 

My father stayed until the kids were grown, then got together with his OW. Another friend of mine bailed when his kids were toddlers - thinking, better now while they're young and adaptable - and he was just starting out. My fiance's kids are teens. There's no "best time" - the parties have to make the best of it, to make it the "best", whichever time it is - or not.

[Spark1111]

jj33- As the BS, I agree with your assessment. MY Ws and I are reconciling and it is one year since D-Day. I still resent the times he was absent from our lives under the guise of "working late," as are my grown children. Also, we have explored the secrecy issue. I am a grown up. Why not separate and tell me the need to explore feelings for another? As hurtful as that may be, it would have been kinder to all of us than 2 years of lies and deception. His answer: "I wanted both." OM,OW, I have only empathy in my heart for your pain. My H lied to both of us.

[InvisibleGirl]

They put no one first but themselves and lie out of both sides of their mouths depending on who they want to deceive at any particular time. They simply are not capable of loving anyone...

[jj33]

Sparks I think part of it is that in 80% of the cases - they dont WANT to separate. They want it all.

 

If all the MMs loved the OWs the way they say they do a lot more of them would be leaving. Its possible to love someone lots and lots and enjoy their company but not love them enough that you want to leave.

 

I dont think its a case of one or the other in the Ws's mind OR THEY WOULDNT BE WITH 2 PEOPLE SNEAKING AROUND. Most of them feel a sense of entitlement. The rules dont apply to them. And the OW goes along with that by agreeing to the terms (for whatever reason) and in most cases the BS doesnt know.

 

Thats why I think this who comes first la la la is just so much rubbish in most cases where the person doesnt leave. Most of these men are NOT sitting there saying I want to leave my family - or weighing up OW v. W, they want to be cakeaters they want it all.

 

And even most who leave are cakeeaters until the OW walks away and they have to make a choice.

 

But I think that most OW dont want to see that. They have to tell themselves of course he would be with me if it werent for xyz. When in fact that is not typically how it works out even when they do leave.

 

And understandably a W doesnt want to share her H nor should she have to.

[complicatedlife]

Sparks I think part of it is that in 80% of the cases - they dont WANT to separate. They want it all.

 

If all the MMs loved the OWs the way they say they do a lot more of them would be leaving. Its possible to love someone lots and lots and enjoy their company but not love them enough that you want to leave.

 

I dont think its a case of one or the other in the Ws's mind OR THEY WOULDNT BE WITH 2 PEOPLE SNEAKING AROUND. Most of them feel a sense of entitlement. The rules dont apply to them. And the OW goes along with that by agreeing to the terms (for whatever reason) and in most cases the BS doesnt know.

 

Thats why I think this who comes first la la la is just so much rubbish in most cases where the person doesnt leave. Most of these men are NOT sitting there saying I want to leave my family - or weighing up OW v. W, they want to be cakeaters they want it all.

 

And even most who leave are cakeeaters until the OW walks away and they have to make a choice.

 

But I think that most OW dont want to see that. They have to tell themselves of course he would be with me if it werent for xyz. When in fact that is not typically how it works out even when they do leave.

 

And understandably a W doesnt want to share her H nor should she have to.

 

While it's quite obvious that many OWs and OMs are cake eating, there are also many who really and truly do stay for the children and struggle with it because while they are in that situation, they are not getting what they want in a relationship out of the marriage.

 

I will use 2 very personal examples:

 

1.I have a very close male friend who is married with children. He married his wife at 21. He has been off and on with his OW for a few years - as a matter of fact, he knew the OW from high school and has fooled around with her throughout the marriage. At some point, the OW became fed up and left; she married someone else and had children with her husband. Then when MM reached out to her and she realized she still had feelings for him, she divorced her husband, never asking MM (my friend) to do the same. And she did it with 2 toddlers. They resumed seeing one another and in about 2 years, she got fed up of waiting for him to get his ducks in order (he was making definite plans to leave/relocate but it was taking some time) and she broke up with him. Now, he still wants to leave but won't because she will not have him at this point. She told him that if he needs to stay there for the kids, then that is what he should do and if they are meant to be, at sometime in their lives, it will happen. Now according to my friend, he has always loved OW but did not want to leave his children because a child psychologist told him (after meeting his his children individually) that one of the children (they are adolescents) would actually benefit from a two parent household if the parents could be amicable with one another. And, so that is why he never left. But when he saw that he could lose her, he went to plan B because he thought that she would wait for him. But she doesn't want that on her conscience - and she was also tired of waiting - she felt that if she could leave with 2 toddlers, he could leave, too. He never told her what the child psychologist told him. And now he is not only miserable at home, but heartbroken. He's a good guy and a good friend - I feel bad for him.

 

2. I have another male friend - not as close as the first one, but a good friend. He married at 23. When he was in his 12th year of marriage, he decided to go to his wife and tell her that he didn't love her as anymore (he felt more "friendly" towards her) and wanted to see how they could work things out with the kids. To his surprise, she told him that she felt the same and then they talked for a few weeks and both decided to stay in the house and raise the kids together as the youngest at that time was 10. A few years later, he became involved with another woman and he told his wife. She was ok with it -but concerned about the kids finding out - but she had to be appreciative of the honesty, I think. They divorced when the last child graduated from college 11 years later, and he was with and is still now living with the OW. She wants to get married and he does not - but as far as I know, he loves her and has been faithful to her for the 15 years they've been together.

 

My point in sharing my friends' stories is to say that sometimes, they really ARE staying for the children. And in my humble opinion, I think sometimes when people marry too young, this happens more often than we think. I also think this situation makes things even more difficult and complicated. In a way, both situations helped me understand my exMM....we still talk and are trying to be really good friends like we used to be - so far, so good....he's in therapy trying to decide what he wants to do about his life.

[SerenityX2]

Sorry complicated but I don't think your examples help the cause of the "good guy" staying for the kids.

 

In the 1st he cheated pretty much the entire marriage to get his needs meet while being the martyr and staying for the kids Now he's heartbroken and what about his wife? Does she have a say in this sham of a marriage? Sorry, can't say I'd view that as a "good guy". Of course this is only IMO.

 

The 2nd while at least he had the decency to put his wife on the same page so there wasn't deception on that level. Now even though he's been with her for 15 years, she wants marriage and he doesn't. How are her needs being met? Hmmm I guess what she wants doesn't matter, his need are only important.

 

I just hate to see examples like this giving more false hope to OW about why their MM isn't leaving. It's cruel. The MAJORITY is like JJ said,are feeding OW a line b/c if it's that bad, get out don't play martyr, it's doing the kids no favors in the long run of how to have successful r'ships of their own. And it keeps the OW mired in this muck of thinking that they're special and are going to beat the odds when chances are against it.

 

It's true for every point there's a counterpoint. I have friends of my own that married in their 20's raised kids, learned that life is sometimes rough and yeah maybe they had to make compromises and grow together, but there they are more mature and still happily married. So, sorry, I guess it's what you're exposed to and if you've become jaded.

 

No, not everything is black and white. But it's pretty clear how these guys who can't stand conflict land in A's and have this sense of entitlement when they don't extend that same courtesy to their spouse. That's not a "good guy".

 

Of any of the success stories I've heard about, it's b/c the MM realized that he had to fix what was broken inside himself 1st. Not blame everyone else for his misery. I mean really the thing that stopping your first friend from leaving is b/c OW doesn't want him now? But you feel sorry b/c he's miserable? Why? He can still leave, sorry but that's pathetic.

[jj33]

High 5 Serenity. I couldnt have said it better myself. We can all philosphise about what is better for the kids until the cows come home, but these guys are doing what suits them. having an OW and keeping their wives in the dark. Oh boo hoo hoo. There are plenty of situations where single parents make it work the wives are happier in the long run and the children are happier much as they dont like the fact that their parents are divorced.

 

And isnt it funny that the studies that talk about satisfaction and lifespan show that for men marriage is better while for women not really so much so.

 

These men arent raising their children. Their Ws are. They arent home juggling a million tasks. They are working and spending time with OW when they can. I know I have been there....

 

So boo hoo for them. Its so difficult being them and not having their needs met. Are their Ws having their needs met? Do they have time to themselves while they are taking care of toddlers and taking care of hte house and and and and.. I have never been a stay at home Mom but it doesnt sound easy.

 

No the man who cheats sets up his life with one thing in mind. To get his needs met. He is not a family man. Family men dont cheat. He is a man who likes having it all.

 

And I say that as a former OW not as a BS.

 

Its all the excuses that are made for the MM that make it possible for OW to get stuck in situations that eat away at their self esteem and make them think that this is how it has to be. It isnt.

 

50% of the population divorces Im not saying that is a good thing, but its a fact. The idea that someone "stays for the children" and cheats doesnt make him a hero or a family man. It makes him an unhappy man putting his needs about all else.

 

What it means is that he is saving on child support and having 2 homes that can house minor children. People of all economic backgrounds divorce. If someone is really unhappy and motivated to have a real and honest life for themselves they will leave. For 99% of the rest of them, its just cakeeating.

 

But for the abused women who have real safety issues in leaving I havent read any thread on here where someone could not have left if he wanted to.

 

Complicated it sounds like your friend has a real case of I have to be the good guy. But he isnt a good guy in the traditional sense for all the reasons Serenity stated.

 

Hes a cake eater justifying it because doesnt he deserve to be happy. That is a cake eater. He gets to stay with his kids and see other women. What other definition of a cake eater is there?

 

They ALL have a reason why they cant leave. Just a different verse from the same song.

[complicatedlife]

In the 1st he cheated pretty much the entire marriage to get his needs meet while being the martyr and staying for the kids Now he's heartbroken and what about his wife? Does she have a say in this sham of a marriage? Sorry, can't say I'd view that as a "good guy". Of course this is only IMO.

 

I never said he cheated the ENTIRE marriage. He didn't for the first few years, and when he went to his wife and asked her to go to counseling so they could try to do something about their problems, she refused, and still refuses to this day. She doesn't want anyone in her "business" and thinks therapists are "bogus".

 

The 2nd while at least he had the decency to put his wife on the same page so there wasn't deception on that level. Now even though he's been with her for 15 years, she wants marriage and he doesn't. How are her needs being met? Hmmm I guess what she wants doesn't matter, his need are only important.

You are assuming here. He told his OW FROM THE VERY BEGINNING that he had no intention of getting married again, ever. At that point, it was her choice to continue with him or not. Just like it's an OW's choice to be with an MM - no matter what he tells her - truth or lies; at the end of everything, he is MARRIED.

 

I just hate to see examples like this giving more false hope to OW about why their MM isn't leaving. It's cruel. The MAJORITY is like JJ said,are feeding OW a line b/c if it's that bad, get out don't play martyr, it's doing the kids no favors in the long run of how to have successful r'ships of their own. And it keeps the OW mired in this muck of thinking that they're special and are going to beat the odds when chances are against it.

I am not giving false hope; what I am trying to convey here is that there are some people - both men and women who stay for the children. I wonder what you would say about the women who stay with their husbands for financial security? So no false hope here, I will repeat: it's an OW's choice to be with an MM - no matter what he tells her - he's staying, he's leaving, truth or lies; at the end of everything, he is MARRIED.

 

It's true for every point there's a counterpoint. I have friends of my own that married in their 20's raised kids, learned that life is sometimes rough and yeah maybe they had to make compromises and grow together, but there they are more mature and still happily married. So, sorry, I guess it's what you're exposed to and if you've become jaded.

I have very few friends - 5 are married. 4 were married in their 20's and one in their mid-thirties. Guess what? The mid-thirties couple who are now in their 40's are the only ones that are happy. Just an example from Psychology Today on how one of the things that make a longterm HAPPY marriage is getting married after the age of 30. I'm happy to provide a link to the article.

 

No, not everything is black and white. But it's pretty clear how these guys who can't stand conflict land in A's and have this sense of entitlement when they don't extend that same courtesy to their spouse. That's not a "good guy".

Well, I refuse to hold him by that one standard that you are holding him at. He's been a good friend to me, as well as to many others, so yes, to me, he is a good guy. His behavior towards his wife hasn't always been exemplary, but neither has hers towards him.

 

Of any of the success stories I've heard about, it's b/c the MM realized that he had to fix what was broken inside himself 1st. Not blame everyone else for his misery. I mean really the thing that stopping your first friend from leaving is b/c OW doesn't want him now? But you feel sorry b/c he's miserable? Why? He can still leave, sorry but that's pathetic.

He has his reasons which I cannot disclose here - a combination of things. And while I think the better thing for the longterm in his situation is to leave, it is his choice, and I know not an easy one.

[complicatedlife]

Hes a cake eater justifying it because doesnt he deserve to be happy. That is a cake eater. He gets to stay with his kids and see other women. What other definition of a cake eater is there?

 

He is not seeing anyone. He's too busy trying to juggle depression, therapy, fatherhood, and a spouse who refuses to fix their marriage.

[jj33]

Complicated - life can be difficult. Marriages are typically not easy to unravel for a plethora of reasons. Your friend is not alone in that.

 

All we are saying is if someone stays and cheats he is getting HIS needs met. It doesnt make him a bad person but everyone has challenges. Its simply a question of how they choose to confront their challenges.

 

Most of the women posting here are unhappy with the fact that the man they are seeing is married. In many cases the man says I would but... all Serenity and I are saying is each of these men have one or more reasons that they beleive stop them from leaving. One reason is no more or less valid.

 

If your friend is not cheating then he doesnt fall into the category of someone who is cake eating. if he does then he does. Being a cake eater doesnt make him a bad person, everyone copes as best he or she can. But it doesnt make him a hero. And in many cases its an excuse.

 

One man's insurmountable obstacle is another man's challenge that can be overcome. The bottom line is it doesnt help an OW to say oh well he loves me and if he could he would so I am going to be in a situation that makes me terribly unhappy 80% of the time because the other 20% is so great and maybe one day someday if I am very lucky he will find a way to leave.

 

When the truth is EVERYONE is hoping their MM has a really good reason and really would leave if he could. And most of them either really dont want to leave deep down or lack the courage to leave even if they could see their way clear to doing so.

 

But that is how it should be isnt it? People take vows for life and build families around them. And those things should be very carefully considered before they are broken by adultery or by divorce. THe problem is many people go for "self help" breaking the vows without telling the other person they are doing so and stringing a third party along in the process.

[complicatedlife]

Complicated - life can be difficult. Marriages are typically not easy to unravel for a plethora of reasons. Your friend is not alone in that.

 

All we are saying is if someone stays and cheats he is getting HIS needs met. It doesnt make him a bad person but everyone has challenges. Its simply a question of how they choose to confront their challenges.

 

Most of the women posting here are unhappy with the fact that the man they are seeing is married. In many cases the man says I would but... all Serenity and I are saying is each of these men have one or more reasons that they beleive stop them from leaving. One reason is no more or less valid.

 

If your friend is not cheating then he doesnt fall into the category of someone who is cake eating. if he does then he does. Being a cake eater doesnt make him a bad person, everyone copes as best he or she can. But it doesnt make him a hero. And in many cases its an excuse.

 

One man's insurmountable obstacle is another man's challenge that can be overcome. The bottom line is it doesnt help an OW to say oh well he loves me and if he could he would so I am going to be in a situation that makes me terribly unhappy 80% of the time because the other 20% is so great and maybe one day someday if I am very lucky he will find a way to leave.

 

When the truth is EVERYONE is hoping their MM has a really good reason and really would leave if he could. And most of them either really dont want to leave deep down or lack the courage to leave even if they could see their way clear to doing so.

 

But that is how it should be isnt it? People take vows for life and build families around them. And those things should be very carefully considered before they are broken by adultery or by divorce. THe problem is many people go for "self help" breaking the vows without telling the other person they are doing so and stringing a third party along in the process.

 

The MM is doing whatever it is he wants and/or needs to do, whether we think it's selfish or not. OWs, myself included in this, need to take ownership of what we allow to happen to us emotionally and mentally - remember, it is a conscious choice to date someone who is married. No matter what he says or leads you to believe, we all have to own our actions, including giving ourselves "false hope". The only faith or hope that we can realistically have is when they file for divorce.

[2sure]

I've seen over and over here on the OW/OM forum that when the MM or MW goes back to the wife and kids that he puts his family first.

 

I'm just curious where the idea that the MM or MW puts their wife and kids first comes from... What is the viewpoint that leads to this idea?

 

I took the above from the original post because in reading all (including my own responses) I notice this:

 

The statement that MM/MW is "staying for the kids" is usually an easy excuse to start/continue/end an affair. Its the bottom line which makes them stay the "good guy", and is a justification that is hard to argue with - true and right or Not.

 

OW when posed with this comment seem to take it as:

He Loves Me More, and would Prefer to be with ME but....

 

And I get why OW/OM almost have to hear that behind the words, regardless of what ACTIONS are to the contrary.

 

I mean....if he Isn't staying just for the kids....what does that mean? Where does the affair stand then? Even if it is over, isn't it easier to believe he "couldnt" leave than "wouldnt" ?

 

The end result is usually the same. I'm black and white - to my benefit and downfall - but to me - which WORDS are used mean almost nothing, its all about actions.

[SerenityX2]

JJ! Thanks back atcha;) ....I totally get what you're saying esp the "self help" it's that entitlement thing.

 

Complicated, you're right we'll have to agree to disagree:)

 

However going back to your 1st post you said the MM and OW knew each other from high school and you said he fooled around with her "throughout" the marriage. I didn't say entire...I did say "pretty much entire".

 

I'm curious however with the addition that he now went to her to work out the problems but she refused. Maybe you know them both and maybe she really is that uncompromising, but I wonder unless you're there for the conv. what's really being said, it's already a given the MM lies to one person, why the OW vehemently denies that it's happening to her is anyone's guess.

 

I understand when you say in the 2nd case that the OW has the CHOICE to continue this even though she wants marriage he does not. I'm just stating point blank though if SHE wants marriage, and HE doesn't they are not on the same page, her needs are going unmet while his are not, that pretty much sums up a MM/OW r'ship for "many" from what I've seen.

 

I totally agree it's a choice, but many OW esp on here act like a leaf blowing in the wind, they write things like they are in too deep and not strong enough to get out, or live in denial that if they hang in there long enough he's going to see how great she is and leave, when quite possibly it's the opposite.

 

There's one OW on here in particular that MM never said he was leaving and never even said ILU but there she is, figuring he MUST at least love her b/c he wouldn't be cheating, that's nothing more than a delusion if he hasn't said it and you can't even ask him!!! It's OW like those that I fear will stay stuck when they see a post they stay for the kids.

 

I will agree to disagree on the whole 20's vs 30's....I've seen those articles, I believe it in a sense but it's also a cop out. Like I said I have friends that learned how to be married and stay married if you will, a definite learning process. Too many people give up too easily these days but not everyone, based on their upbringing do. Some do the right thing and work it out and ride out the rough patches that marriages inevitably have, or else they do the right thing and divorce, heal then find someone else.

 

If you're that miserable get out, if you can't be honest with your spouse and tried talking then the CHOICE to be miserable is on you if you're staying. I don't understand you when you say the 1st guy would leave now for the OW but b/c she won't have him, he's heartbroken and miserable. I still maintain he can leave, if he was going to leave for someone he should foremost leave for himself. Anything else is not only disingenous it's weak.

 

The problem with many of the OW is on here is they relinquish their choice to his choice and wait and wait, hope against hope. That's not living it's existing.

 

You have an interesting username Complicated and I can say I don't see life in terms of the ones that you love and especially marry should be "complicated". Life is complicated enough, for my husband I, we are each other's sanctuary from the world. We never have to guess what each other is thinking b/c we TALK. If you are playing games, or having to guess what someone is thinking, if you are spending 1/2 as much or more time in tears than in joy. If he doesn't do what he say he will and causes more anxiety then it's a r'ship that's NOT WORTH IT.

 

I used to think that love had to be complicated, that's what we're taught right? Anything worth having is going to take blood, sweat and tears right? If you have to fight for the r'ship or go through absolute turmoil then that'll make the good times that much sweeter right? WRONG! I found out the hard way that love is not complicated, it is one of the greatest joys, but the joy before that is found in your own inner happiness, we complicate love...it was never meant to be that way.

 

I don't mean any harm Complicated, I've learned much when I'm here, but I do not like to see people in pain, esp pain that they are now choosing to have.

[jj33]

Another great post Serenity. Beautifully put.