Who comes first?

[NoIDidn't]

I can't possibly represent the OW in that case here with any degree of accuracy - I was a small child, I didn't know her or the parents of the girl, and I knew the girl only by sight as she was a few years older than me. I was merely projecting that - given the question I was asked of "where does the perception that MM go back "for the kids" come from - that this would have been a case in point. The MM did go back "for the kids". And the OW would have had to deal with that. And yes, that would lead to her thinking / assuming / arguing BASED ON HER OWN LIVED EXPERIENCE that MMs return to Ms they're done with, for the kids.

 

Is it really that hard a point to understand?

 

I totally get that you were little when it happened. I already explained how I drew my conclusion with the "lumped" comment.

 

My thoughts weren't based on what you couldn't know for certain as you are not her. But the "lumped" thing is cold. And you are right, it was a case in point. But this is EXTREME and not really very representative of when MOST OWs are told that the MM is going back for the kids.

 

The crying and begging of the girl, yes. The attempted suicide, not representative and extreme.

[OWoman]

I totally get that you were little when it happened. I already explained how I drew my conclusion with the "lumped" comment.

 

My thoughts weren't based on what you couldn't know for certain as you are not her. But the "lumped" thing is cold. And you are right, it was a case in point. But this is EXTREME and not really very representative of when MOST OWs are told that the MM is going back for the kids.

 

The crying and begging of the girl, yes. The attempted suicide, not representative and extreme.

 

Perhaps it isn't representative - I don't know, I don't know of that many MMs who went back to their Ws, (LS aside) so can't compare. This one I remembered exactly because it was extreme, because I remember seeing the girl when she (briefly) came back to school all those months later, looking like a ghost. It's not something one can permanently forget.

[herenow]

I agree that "some" MM use the kids as an easy way out of the affair or an excuse to not leave his wife. Let's face it, if they were able to deal with ending a relationship the right way, they would have gotten a divorce instead of having an affair in the first place.

 

If a MM tells the OW that he is staying married for the kids, it makes him the martyr. The good father who is to be commended for his selfless act.

 

If he tells the OW that he wants to end the affair, for whatever reason, there is conflict and he will avoid conflict at all costs. Even is he continues the affair, the OW will be less likely to push for him to leave if she thinks he is only staying because he is such a great father.

 

I'm sure there are those that do stay to keep the family intact. I'm also sure that there are as many BW's who take their H's back for the very same reason.

 

When the BW tries to keep the marriage together for the kids, she is called selfish and accused of using the kids to keep the MM away from the OW. When the MM uses his kids to stay in the marriage he is a good guy. Something is very wrong with this picture.

[whichwayisup]

When the BW tries to keep the marriage together for the kids, she is called selfish and accused of using the kids to keep the MM away from the OW. When the MM uses his kids to stay in the marriage he is a good guy. Something is very wrong with this picture.

 

Yes, you are right..

[NoIDidn't]

When the BW tries to keep the marriage together for the kids, she is called selfish and accused of using the kids to keep the MM away from the OW. When the MM uses his kids to stay in the marriage he is a good guy. Something is very wrong with this picture.

 

Something IS wrong with this picture.

[OWoman]

When the BW tries to keep the marriage together for the kids, she is called selfish and accused of using the kids to keep the MM away from the OW. When the MM uses his kids to stay in the marriage he is a good guy. Something is very wrong with this picture.

 

Gosh this is the exact opposite of what I've seen! When BWs fight for the M using the kids, they're patted on the back and supported and told how important it is to keep their family together, and great job. When an MM wants to stay "for the kids" he gets shredded and told that it's not for the kids, it's for his own selfish reasons and because he really loves the W more than the OW. It seems we live in parallel universes.

 

As the fiancee of a fMM who left WITH the kids, I really struggle to see the either/or picture though. Leaving a M does not have to mean leaving the kids. Shared custody is the norm in most of the world today, and where custody is awarded primarily to one partner above the other, it seems to go as often (if not more, as IME with friends and colleagues) to fathers as to mothers.

[2sure]

As the fiancee of a fMM who left WITH the kids, I really struggle to see the either/or picture though. Leaving a M does not have to mean leaving the kids. Shared custody is the norm in most of the world today, and where custody is awarded primarily to one partner above the other, it seems to go as often (if not more, as IME with friends and colleagues) to fathers as to mothers.

 

OWoman - once again we are on opposite sides of the fence, but saying the same thing.

 

Sometimes people do stay for the kids. As to which spouse is sincerely "staying for the kids" I guess it depends who friends or lawyer your talking to.

 

But your above post says it all. Divorce happens. These days it does not have to result in the shame and dysfunction it did 20 years ago. MANY divorced families are quite amicable. A "broken" home is now one in which the parents are not a loving couple. Leaving a marriage is not losing the children.

 

So, staying for the kids is just a nonsense blanket phrase used by both parties to say they want to keep the marriage intact. Usually.

[herenow]

 

OWoman - once again we are on opposite sides of the fence, but saying the same thing.

 

Sometimes people do stay for the kids. As to which spouse is sincerely "staying for the kids" I guess it depends who friends or lawyer your talking to.

 

But your above post says it all. Divorce happens. These days it does not have to result in the shame and dysfunction it did 20 years ago. MANY divorced families are quite amicable. A "broken" home is now one in which the parents are not a loving couple. Leaving a marriage is not losing the children.

 

So, staying for the kids is just a nonsense blanket phrase used by both parties to say they want to keep the marriage intact. Usually.

 

Agree, agree, agree 100%. I do think there are some men and women who stay for the kids, but I don't think those are the ones that stay in affairs.

 

IMO a person that is so concerned with the well being of their kids isn't the type of person to engage in an affair in the first place. Yes, there are exceptions, but I agree that for the most part it's just a line to keep the OW or OM from wanting more or to end the affair all together without conflict.

[herenow]

Oh, yeah. I've seen many cases on LS where OW are putting their MM on a pedestal of sorts for the martyr that he is by refusing to divorce a lousy W JUST because of the kids because he's such a wonderful dad. Um, okay. Sounds good. With a great guy like that, who needs enemies, eh?

 

There are two people involved in these marriages where the MM says he only stays because of the kids.

 

I think all the BW's should be given the chance to decide if they want to be married to a man who, supposedly, doesn't love her. Why should Mr. Wonderful be the only one making these decisions?

[NoIDidn't]

There are two people involved in these marriages where the MM says he only stays because of the kids.

 

I think all the BW's should be given the chance to decide if they want to be married to a man who, supposedly, doesn't love her. Why should Mr. Wonderful be the only one making these decisions?

 

But isn't that the question of this thread by the OP? The fact that the MM only makes it LOOK like he is the one calling ALL the shots?

 

Some OW believe it and some don't. Maybe this is another thread but I'm starting wonder why the OW thinks the W should behave however the OW thinks she would under the same circumstances when she (the OW) has nothing of his (the MM's) like the W does?

 

My point is, the MM isn't calling all the shots in anything other than the A. But he fails to tell the OW that little tidbit. Its like he wants to appear almighty or something else commanding. But at home he probably feels defeated - not by his marriage, but by the challenges of life in general (family life, job, debts, healthwise, etc.)

[herenow]

But isn't that the question of this thread by the OP? The fact that the MM only makes it LOOK like he is the one calling ALL the shots?

 

Some OW believe it and some don't. Maybe this is another thread but I'm starting wonder why the OW thinks the W should behave however the OW thinks she would under the same circumstances when she (the OW) has nothing of his (the MM's) like the W does?

 

My point is, the MM isn't calling all the shots in anything other than the A. But he fails to tell the OW that little tidbit. Its like he wants to appear almighty or something else commanding. But at home he probably feels defeated - not by his marriage, but by the challenges of life in general (family life, job, debts, healthwise, etc.)

 

Right, the affair is the escape from reality. When the affair becomes a "real" relationship, some MM realize that they are right back where they were with the very same responsibilities of real life. That's why many of them return to their wives. If they have to deal with reality, might as well do it with someone they already have a life with.

 

If the wife is fortunate enough to find out about the affair, the MM isn't always welcome back and that's when the begging starts.

[NoIDidn't]

Right, the affair is the escape from reality. When the affair becomes a "real" relationship, some MM realize that they are right back where they were with the very same responsibilities of real life. That's why many of them return to their wives. If they have to deal with reality, might as well do it with someone they already have a life with.

 

If the wife is fortunate enough to find out about the affair, the MM isn't always welcome back and that's when the begging starts.

 

This is a complete t/j but I really wonder how many OP (but mainly OW) will admit the amount of times they heard the MP say that being with them was like a "slice of heaven" or something to that effect.

 

It seems that alot of cheating MPs see their time with the AP as Fantasy Island. Its like when the fog lifts, they look around and see the carnage they created.

 

Yeah, some do decide that this new fantasy is way better and more sustainable than "real" life, but most don't do that (whether they ultimately divorce or not).

 

Not one of the MM that I have known has ever left their spouse. No matter how long or how many they affairs. The MW I've known have left, some have even married their OM, but go back to begging their BH's to take them back.

 

The OPs have varying outcomes too. Both OMs and OWs get ostracized for a time period until people decide that they are trustworthy and/or forgiven. But the OWs deal with this for FAR longer because they were usually sleeping with the H of a friend. You wanna lose all your friends in an instant? Sleep with one of their Hs and be found out. The fantasy land of the A crashes more immediately for the female OP than for the male.

[NoIDidn't]

And regarding a marriage with children and a MM: most MM don't want another man potentially raising their children. So that is another reason they will stay married for the children.

 

Its funny writing that, though. I'm sure that most MW don't want their Hs sleeping around on them but they don't get a say in that when its being done on the low.

[herenow]

This is a complete t/j but I really wonder how many OP (but mainly OW) will admit the amount of times they heard the MP say that being with them was like a "slice of heaven" or something to that effect.

 

Another line that is often used by MM is: "I feel alive". Very typical for an addict also.

[NoIDidn't]

This is a complete t/j but I really wonder how many OP (but mainly OW) will admit the amount of times they heard the MP say that being with them was like a "slice of heaven" or something to that effect.

 

Another line that is often used by MM is: "I feel alive". Very typical for an addict also.

 

Or the "found my passion" line. I love that one. It shows how the MP was looking for someone else to bring out what was already within.

[herenow]

 

Or the "found my passion" line. I love that one. It shows how the MP was looking for someone else to bring out what was already within.

 

Or, if you tell my wife she will make me stop seeing you.

 

And on that note, the work day is finally over and it's time to go home. Have a great weekend!

[KismetGirl]

I've seen over and over here on the OW/OM forum that when the MM or MW goes back to the wife and kids that he puts his family first. This puzzles me. In actuality the MM or MW puts themselves first-- their wants-- their desires. This is the thing that drives them both into and out of the affair.

 

They put themselves first. They decide that their happiness is most inportant-- above their spouse-- above their kids. So they have an affair. Then the wife is going to leave and they decide to hang on to their marriage because it is what they want and in most instances later on they have another affair because it satisfies their selfishness.

 

I'm just curious where the idea that the MM or MW puts their wife and kids first comes from... What is the viewpoint that leads to this idea?

 

I think you are kind of pushing semantics here....it depends on what angle you look at things from doesn't it? You could say that some MM's are putting their family "first" by staying with their wives, but its more about appearances in some cases isn't it? They think everyone involved will be happier if they stay married, but perhaps secretly they aren't totally happy, so they use an affair as an outlet. So in one way they are trying to maintain their family's happiness, and in another way they are satiating their own.

 

I mean.....ok just to use example, my MM has been hooking up with me on and off for 4+ years at this point. His wife has had suspicions but never concrete evidence that he's cheated. From what I see, they, on the outside, as a family unit, appear to be generally happy. They have three small kids who get to have mom and dad living together, and he and his wife get along just fine. They dont hate each other. They just, in my humble opinion, have no romantic connection. He won't divorce her just for that small reason, though, so in a way he's putting her and his kids first, isn't he? He is certainly not putting me first. In secret, he is putting himself first by having his cake and eating it too: by getting to keep his family and by getting to keep me. But since his family is unaware of his actions, its kind of like he's putting them first, as even though he's not totally happy with his situation, he'd rather stay there than address the problems.

 

I dunno. I guess it's how you look at it. Does it even matter anyway? It's never a good situation, someone always gets hurt, whether it be OW, BS, MM or all of the above.

[whichwayisup]

Right, the affair is the escape from reality. When the affair becomes a "real" relationship, some MM realize that they are right back where they were with the very same responsibilities of real life.

 

And the expression "Better to be with you devil you know than the devil you don't" comes to mind right about now.

[KismetGirl]

I'm probably being foolish, responding to a baiting post, but I really get irritated when anyone posts sweeping assumptions about "ALL <insert category here: MM/MW; OM/OW; BS>. Situations are different, people are different and lumping everyone in a category together and making derogatory statements about them is little different to racism or sexism. It's all based on prejudice.

 

SOME MM/MWs clearly are governed by selfish motives.

 

Others are not selfish, merely weak / cowardly or such ingrained conflict avoiders that leaving - or even saying openly "I'm unhappy in this relationship and I want things to change, or I'll leave" is beyond them. Often, rather than being selfish, these people are pleasers, trying to keep EVERYONE happy even when those drives are contradictory. They go through great angst and unhappiness and are often very out of touch with their own wants and desires, and so not acting in accord with those but with what they PERCEIVE to be the wants and desires of those they're trying to please (spouse, lover, kids, etc).

 

Yet others are genuinely confused and conflicted, unable to take a true reading on how their behaviour affects themselves or others because of contradictory messages about right and wrong, good and bad, etc that they're picking up from others. Their guilt may cause them to spend more time engaging with the kids, for example; the kids respond well to this and they see, "the kids are happy" - despite their "common sense" telling them that the kids ought to be unhappy that they're having an A.

 

I'm sure there are lots of other motivators too. These ones just popped instantly into my head - perhaps because I've just been through a leaving process with a MM who had to learn through counselling to be MORE selfish, that it was OK to have his own wants and needs and not always to have to suppress those or prioritise those of others, and that he deserved happiness as much as the next person - which finally empowered him to leave his unhappy M (and, in the process, free the kids from the unhappiness too).

 

There is no One Size Fits All with As.

 

Well put....said it better than me. There is no one size fits all....stories have similiar patterns but I guess no two people are exactly the same are they....and really, the only person who will ever know an MM's motivations for doing something are, well, the MM, and only the MM. Whether they're ever honest about their motivations is another story, to themselves or to anyone else....

[KismetGirl]

Does an OW/OM really want to hear "well, I've decided to go back to my wife, I've realized that cheating was a big mistake and going through this pain and heartache has made me realize that I DO love my wife and family, I don't want to lose them.." Or is it easier to hear the standard line "I'm going back because of the kids."

 

Could an OW/OM accept and believe a MM/MW who actually says he/she's going back because of a re-found love for their spouse? My guess is no because people hear what they want to hear, out of frame of minds, emotions and the affair fog.

 

Just my 2 cents, no harm intended..

 

No harm at all....but as an OW, believe it or not, I'd rather him tell me "I'm staying with my wife because I realized Im in love with her" rather than just "im staying because i dont want to upset the family dynamic/lose the kids/etc". In the former situation, that's it, it's an end all. It's a slap in the face, of course, but he's made it plain that he stays with his wife because he loves his wife and not me. To be told "im staying becaise of the kids" makes a person like me secretly wonder , oh, maybe if the kids were older he'd leave, or oh, maybe if he'd met me before he had kids he'd leave, and it leaves for alot of false hope or whatever. I'd rather be outright rejected, which would hurt at first, than to forever be strung along with this inner depression thinking "well, here's this person who could possibly really have loved me, it's not like he doesn't want me, its just that he has this family he doesnt want to tear apart". Its stuff liek that that keeps a person , like me, in hopeless denial.

[KismetGirl]

 

OWoman - once again we are on opposite sides of the fence, but saying the same thing.

 

Sometimes people do stay for the kids. As to which spouse is sincerely "staying for the kids" I guess it depends who friends or lawyer your talking to.

 

But your above post says it all. Divorce happens. These days it does not have to result in the shame and dysfunction it did 20 years ago. MANY divorced families are quite amicable. A "broken" home is now one in which the parents are not a loving couple. Leaving a marriage is not losing the children.

 

So, staying for the kids is just a nonsense blanket phrase used by both parties to say they want to keep the marriage intact. Usually.

 

I totally agree that divorce is not the end all of happiness. It sucks, usually, but people can usually be amicable in the end and happy. My parents were very amicable and are very friendly to this day, and there was cheating involved when they were breaking up. But, even though divorce is more common and accepted, there are still stigmas attached to it. Especially with religious people or those that were raised in religious households.

 

Again, just to use example.....when my MM was over the other day, I was telling him about a mutual friend, who he still works with, who I still speak to on occasion. This friend had told me that he and his wife were seperated and probably divorcing. he hadn't told anyone else but me, so MM didn't know, even though they are "buddies". When I told MM, he was SO shocked, saying it was so sad, that this friend had told him he wanted a family, that the wife was such a good person.....it just seemed like the concept of divorce was so horrid, like he pictures it to be this thing that will just destroy a person.

 

I said to him "ok, well, what does it matter. he's a good person, she's a good person, that doesn't mean that they are good together, right? Divorce is never a pleasant thing, even if people are amiable about it, but you think people should stay together even if they aren't right for each other?" he didn't really know how to answer it, and I suspect that's because he has this ingrained idea that somehow divorce is this horrible thing, that people will look at you as if you've failed miserably. The way he was lamenting about our mututal friend, you'd think the guy was 50 and losing his chance at a life. The mutual friend is only 30 and on friendly terms with his STBXW, and is young enough with plenty of time to find someone better suited for him and have a family. I said "don't you think its better he's divorcing her BEFORE they had kids and it makes it harder to leave?" Again, he was quiet and sat there looking as if he'd never thought of it that way.

 

I gotta tell you....despite how common it is, I don't think most people who get married ever think it will happen to THEM, and many people , espeically a man, will look at it as if he is a failure, will lose the respect of people around him, and in my case, MM's catholic background does a wonderful job of making him a big ball of paranoid guilt all the damn time, even though his desires and personality are in OBVIOUS conflict with the All-American perfect-picture life he tries to live on the outside (well, his wife is american, he's from england ;-) but you get what I mean).

[desertmoon]

I've seen over and over here on the OW/OM forum that when the MM or MW goes back to the wife and kids that he puts his family first. This puzzles me. In actuality the MM or MW puts themselves first-- their wants-- their desires. This is the thing that drives them both into and out of the affair.

 

They put themselves first. They decide that their happiness is most inportant-- above their spouse-- above their kids. So they have an affair. Then the wife is going to leave and they decide to hang on to their marriage because it is what they want and in most instances later on they have another affair because it satisfies their selfishness.

 

I'm just curious where the idea that the MM or MW puts their wife and kids first comes from... What is the viewpoint that leads to this idea?

 

I think what you want MM's to say is "I am staying in the marriage for the sake of the kids because society (family, co-workers, church people, neighbors, etc)would view me better, and that makes him ME feel good"...yes, it is still self-serving.

 

I guess it would depend too if you believe that people are capable of altruistic acts. If not, then you will have a problem believing that an MM is staying in the marriage for no other benefit than his own and if the W or the children benefit from it,it is just a side effect.

 

However, for the sake of argument it IS possible that a WS would stay in the marriage without other motivation but to make his children happy, is it not?

[OWoman]

This is a complete t/j but I really wonder how many OP (but mainly OW) will admit the amount of times they heard the MP say that being with them was like a "slice of heaven" or something to that effect.

 

It seems that alot of cheating MPs see their time with the AP as Fantasy Island. Its like when the fog lifts, they look around and see the carnage they created.

 

A "slice of heaven"? I'd have dumped mine if he went around speaking in cliches.

 

He didn't say anything like that - I could see he was happy, his friends and family all told me how nice it was to see him happy for a change, and I heard enough about his home life (from others) to draw my own conclusions. He didn't go around comparing one life to another.

 

Yeah, some do decide that this new fantasy is way better and more sustainable than "real" life, but most don't do that (whether they ultimately divorce or not).

 

Not one of the MM that I have known has ever left their spouse. No matter how long or how many they affairs. The MW I've known have left, some have even married their OM, but go back to begging their BH's to take them back.

 

Our experiences are very different.

 

The OPs have varying outcomes too. Both OMs and OWs get ostracized for a time period until people decide that they are trustworthy and/or forgiven. But the OWs deal with this for FAR longer because they were usually sleeping with the H of a friend. You wanna lose all your friends in an instant? Sleep with one of their Hs and be found out. The fantasy land of the A crashes more immediately for the female OP than for the male.

 

Wow. I've never had any "ostracizing" and the only negative vibes I've ever gotten for being an OW have been here. Very different social settings, I guess. But nor do I know any OWs (IRL, not here) who have slept with a friend's H. I imagine that that is seen as a different kind of betrayal - that's betraying a friend, rather than an institution - so that might well provoke a different response.

[KismetGirl]

A "slice of heaven"? I'd have dumped mine if he went around speaking in cliches.

 

He didn't say anything like that - I could see he was happy, his friends and family all told me how nice it was to see him happy for a change, and I heard enough about his home life (from others) to draw my own conclusions. He didn't go around comparing one life to another.

 

 

 

Our experiences are very different.

 

 

 

Wow. I've never had any "ostracizing" and the only negative vibes I've ever gotten for being an OW have been here. Very different social settings, I guess. But nor do I know any OWs (IRL, not here) who have slept with a friend's H. I imagine that that is seen as a different kind of betrayal - that's betraying a friend, rather than an institution - so that might well provoke a different response.

 

Correct me if Im wrong, OWoman, but you and your STBH/MM are both "older" and the kids are grown, right?

 

I think people are comparing MM's who are "young" family men, with small kids, to MM's who have older children and are older themselves. I feel that those are two completely different places in life. It is MUCH harder to leave when you've just begun to really raise a family, and kids are still young, and you aren't sure how to change everything. That's why those guys go back and forth, back and forth, and often go back to their wives, because they weren't really sure if they should have left to begin with, and the kids often bring tremendous guilt if they are still small and they have the thought of not being with them or another man coming in to raise them.

 

When an MM is older, and his kids are pretty much grown up, I feel like he can start to focus more on HIS wants or HIS happiness just a little bit more. He can start to feel mildly less guilty about leaving, he's perhaps had to deal with the bullsh** of an abusive spouse (as in your case) for so long that they've FINALLY reached their "enough is enough" point so that they can leave and be happy about it.

 

Sorry, but as you said earlier, no two situations are alike, and I firmly believe that the "place" they are at their lives has a big say on what decision they make. You said yourself that your MM was married for 30 years to someone that made him miserable....why stay that long, then? Im guessing cause of those same "cliched" reasons, right? He was younger, the kids were younger, he tried to do "the right thing", maybe money issues, etc etc. Sure, some might say that the longer you stay in a marriage, the more someone is "set int heir ways" and doesn't want to leave, but I think when people get older you can often reflect a little more on yourself and think "ok, my kids are grown up. I still have a good 20-30 years left on this planet, at least. Do I want to spend it with someone who doesn't make me that happy?". I think it's a little easier to be selfish about that question's answer than when it's "my kids arent even in elementary school yet, my wife doesn't work, i can barely afford the mortgage on my brand new house which i've worked so hard to finally obtain, my inlaws like me, our mutual friends are great, and i'll look like a big shmuck if i dump them all now".

[jj33]

There is nothing easier about leaving when children are grown. People are closer to retirement or in some cases about to retire if they didnt have kids in their 20s.

 

KG once again you are seeing things in a way that allows you to believe MM is staying for the children. He HAD 2 children or 3 is it while he was with you. This is not a man who is leaving.

 

Divorce is never easy for anyone regardless of their age.

 

There are always a million reasons not to leave. And really that is the way it should be. Marriage is a committment that should not easily be broken. Sometimes ending a marriage is better than staying married, some 50% of the population seems to think so...

 

But to say that its easier for someone to leave when they are older is simply not true.