Owl Posted January 28, 2009 Posted January 28, 2009 I can't start my response out with a yes or no...because my answer is both yes and no. "Loving them back" works...as part of a bigger plan. By itself, it is nearly always going to be insufficient to bring them back if they're still deep in the affair. But, coupled with other actions, it can be part of a plan that often can bring a WS 'back'. That's why the marriagebuilders "plan A" has two aspects of it...the 'carrot and the stick' if you will. And that's also why there's a "plan B" to go WITH a "plan A". Plan B typically has no effect whatsoever on most WS's if an outstanding plan A wasn't followed first.
Virgo1982 Posted January 29, 2009 Posted January 29, 2009 Love dies pretty fast when you're overwhelmed with disgust and revulsion. I think you need to experience this before understanding a betrayed spouse's mindset as at D-day and afterwards. I have not been a BS, but BG. I know I did not stop loving him, but I did leave him. To lie to myself and say I didn't love him would serve no purpose. If loves goes away that easily, I would wonder if I ever loved him. That's me, though. Everyone is different.
Virgo1982 Posted January 29, 2009 Posted January 29, 2009 Yeah, I agree. Its something with those vows that makes you feel you can trust that they will never betray you in that way. And if they do betray you, sure you love them but the question is more do they love you. If you had to base it on their actions, the answer would be "no". I think what Virgo is missing here is that "love" is part of both approaches. Tough "love" is still love. One type is honoring the cheater and hurting the betrayed further if they continue to cheat. The other is honoring and protecting the betrayed should the cheater continue to cheat. Love is a part of both appraches, but I saw a couple of people say they didn't love the person when they found out and I think it's pride speaking rather than reality. Do you believe leaving the partner and never returning is tough love? It sounds like some of the BS here don't agree. They might simply call it "tough." Tough love as described by the OP seems to be one way to save the relationship. No?
Virgo1982 Posted January 29, 2009 Posted January 29, 2009 With Virgo's response there is contrition which means that they are already back. To define it better, I meant that if a WS is not back and is still deep in the fog can you love them into dumping the OM/OW? This did confuse me because I fail to see how the approach/outcome would be different. If you're asking whether the WS would pull back or be drawn to the BS depending on the two approaches, I would still say it depends on the person. It also depends on why they cheated. However, I lean toward answering no because any wrong done without consequence is almost sure to be repeated. Basically, being passive will probably make you a doormat. But being aggressive and/or assertive can either save the relationship or end it.
65tr6 Posted January 29, 2009 Posted January 29, 2009 I think this thread will be invaluable to those who believe they can love their cheating spouses into stopping their affairs without taking a hard line stance. Please start your post with YES or NO, so that others can keep track easily. This could really help a lot of betrayed spouse who sit on the fence worrying whether they should get tough or not. NO. Meaning now is the time to get TOUGH. The affair has to END before here can be any progress. Also the dynamics of the marriage change SO much once the affair has ended and when there is complete NC. If they dont go through that withdrawl, there is little chance of recovering. Might as well give up. Remember, during the affair, more than likely the WS may have tried to get out of the affair more than once but was too weak to get out. By taking the touch stance you are actually helping your WS.
65tr6 Posted January 29, 2009 Posted January 29, 2009 The sad thing is it seems many BS do have this knee-jerk reaction post D-day to shower the WS with love and affection in a panicked attempt to hold on to their spouse and their marriage. They make the mistake of internalizing the affair, blaming themselves for their WS's decision to step outside the marriage. They make the mistake of putting the guilt and blame on themselves for somehow failing their spouse and their marriage. And they allow their self-esteem to take a major hit. Depends on the individual though. why do you think that is sad ? do you realize that it is the last thing they expected to hear from their spouses that they had an affair ? Some of us think it is end of the world and say things that they could never utter before. In BS's defense, their feelings are subject to change - just like WSs are - and their feelings especially after the d-day are mostly irrational. It can even continue on for several months because they are in a state of shock/depression. I agree they may even get their self-esteem take a major hit but there is no reason they cannot recover if they tried it. If i ever felt guilty or blamed myself for my wife's betrayal it is only because of my love for her. But those feelings (of guilt) change quickly on daily basis sometimes !. I think the trick is to pick up yourself and move on.
NoIDidn't Posted January 29, 2009 Posted January 29, 2009 Love is a part of both appraches, but I saw a couple of people say they didn't love the person when they found out and I think it's pride speaking rather than reality. Do you believe leaving the partner and never returning is tough love? It sounds like some of the BS here don't agree. They might simply call it "tough." Tough love as described by the OP seems to be one way to save the relationship. No? I lean toward answering no because any wrong done without consequence is almost sure to be repeated. Basically, being passive will probably make you a doormat. But being aggressive and/or assertive can either save the relationship or end it. Virgo After clearing any confusion it seems that we agree - bolded part. The thing about tough love, though, is that it protects the giver not the receiver and that's why so many recommend it. And you are right, it may save the relationship or end it, depending on the people involved and/or the reasons for the betrayal to begin with.
taylor Posted January 29, 2009 Posted January 29, 2009 why do you think that is sad ? do you realize that it is the last thing they expected to hear from their spouses that they had an affair ? Some of us think it is end of the world and say things that they could never utter before. In BS's defense, their feelings are subject to change - just like WSs are - and their feelings especially after the d-day are mostly irrational. It can even continue on for several months because they are in a state of shock/depression. I agree they may even get their self-esteem take a major hit but there is no reason they cannot recover if they tried it. If i ever felt guilty or blamed myself for my wife's betrayal it is only because of my love for her. But those feelings (of guilt) change quickly on daily basis sometimes !. I think the trick is to pick up yourself and move on. It's sad for several reasons: 1. The BS puts the blame for the affair on himself, rather than where it rightfully belongs..on the WS. This just makes the BS feel worse about themselves when in fact, they shouldn't be feeling bad about themselves at all. They didn't do anything wrong. 2. The BS's self-esteem has already taken a major hit. Blaming himself for the affair just makes the BS feel even worse about himself..what did I do wrong...why am I not good enough...I'm a failure. These are all mindsets that are very detrimental to the BS's sense of self and well-being and are totally misaligned. The reality is that the BS did not fall short..did nothing wrong...is not to blame for the affair. To focus on the affair with this mindset will not do absolutely nothing to convince the WS to end the affair and return to the marriage. It only convinces the WS that they were indeed entitled to the affair. 3. The BS can't win by showering the WS with love and affection if the WS is still involved with the OW/OM. The WS will not be open to it and in the end the only thing all it does is make the BS feel rejected and even more unloved. And that's sad. The only thing a BS can do to serve his own best interests is to pull back. Withhold the loving, affectionate gestures. Why would you want to continue loving (love is an action, not a feeling) someone who is in the act of loving someone else? By doing so, you are telling the WS that you are willing to share them with another lover. By withholding the loving gestures, you don't put yourself in the likely position of being rejected by your WS who is still caught up in the moment with the affair partner. The affair partner can feel smothered if you are showering him/her with love and affection they don't desire and can't accept at the moment. It will push the WS farther away. Withholding the loving gestures will make the WS feel loss. It will give the WS a chance to miss you. It will also force the WS to decide who he/she truly wants...whose love does he/she need more. You can't stop FEELING love for your WS. I think after D-day you can FEEL both love and hate. But you can withhold the love at least and until the WS ends the affair. If the WS chooses to love you again (action), then you can reciprocate and begin the long road to recovery. My husband went the route of smothering me with love and affection following D-day, trying to make up for all that he thought he did wrong in the marriage. The only thing this did was make me feel smothered. I rejected him. It just added heartache on top of heartache for him. Then he said he couldn't do this anymore..he couldn't keep putting his heart in my hands to crush. So he pulled back. It was hard for him to do. But this is what made me miss him...made me think about what I had with him...think about what life would be like without him. He waited for me to come back to him. I did, but it took many months.
Owl Posted January 29, 2009 Posted January 29, 2009 Taylor, I still remain very impressed with all that you've learned and how far you've gone since you've been on this site!
taylor Posted January 29, 2009 Posted January 29, 2009 Taylor, I still remain very impressed with all that you've learned and how far you've gone since you've been on this site! Owl, thank you. But this has been a lesson learned the hard way. If I had come onto this forum when I first started having inappropriate thoughts and feelings for someone outside my marriage, I really wonder if I would have taken the wise advice of the good people here on LS. Something tells me I would have been too caught up in the moment..the feelings and the fantasy...to take a good hard look at the reality and the consequences. A good friend of mine who was outraged at my behavior 4 months into the EA asked me, "What are you DOING? Do you KNOW what you are doing?" I looked at her like she was crazy. I replied, "Of course I know what I'm doing. I'm not doing anything. It's nothing...you worry too much." I had no idea at that time that I was headed right into the eye of the storm.... The road to recovery...from D-day to today...has been like a maze. You take one path. It doesn't work. So you try another and another and another until you find yourself on one that leads you a little closer to your goal. I hate to admit it, but experience in this situation has been the best teacher. It's not the way I like to learn lessons such as these. Unfortunately I doubt I could have learned it any other way. I am so grateful to you and to so many other posters here who have helped open my eyes, set me on a path to thinking more clearly, and who have given me guidance and hope. I am especially grateful to those who knocked some sense into my head early on to not cross over into a PA when that's all I wanted to do was cross that line. I don't think my marriage would have been recoverable at all had that happened and I thank you and other posters here for that. Hope you are having a great day.
Adunaphel Posted January 29, 2009 Posted January 29, 2009 No and yes. Some people cheat because they need badly to distance themselves emotionally from their partner or from relationship problems that are causing them severe distress. I think it's one of the few cases where loving your spouse (and showing it) would be enough to stop the affair. This would be because the WS would rather be happy with his/her partner than be happy with the OW/OM.
Virgo1982 Posted January 30, 2009 Posted January 30, 2009 No and yes. Some people cheat because they need badly to distance themselves emotionally from their partner or from relationship problems that are causing them severe distress. I think it's one of the few cases where loving your spouse (and showing it) would be enough to stop the affair. This would be because the WS would rather be happy with his/her partner than be happy with the OW/OM. Agreed. That's the point I was getting at before. It would be very difficult to rebuild the relationship, or shower the WS with affection, if I had not done anything to damage the relationship. Also, if the WS never made a request or communicated any problems to me in any way whatsoever, I would probably try-and fail-at reconciliation.
NoIDidn't Posted January 30, 2009 Posted January 30, 2009 No and yes. Some people cheat because they need badly to distance themselves emotionally from their partner or from relationship problems that are causing them severe distress. I think it's one of the few cases where loving your spouse (and showing it) would be enough to stop the affair. This would be because the WS would rather be happy with his/her partner than be happy with the OW/OM. While I certainly agree with what's said, I need clarification on one point. The OP's example was of a busted affair - a dday - but continuance of the A. Does your answer incorporate that? Agreed. That's the point I was getting at before. It would be very difficult to rebuild the relationship, or shower the WS with affection, if I had not done anything to damage the relationship. Also, if the WS never made a request or communicated any problems to me in any way whatsoever, I would probably try-and fail-at reconciliation. Why would you fail at reconciliation if the WS never said anything about their concerns? I don't think anyone can say that they didn't do anything to damage a relationship. So are you saying now that if you felt unfairly wronged by an affair that you wouldn't be able to "love them back" into the marriage? Just trying to understand your view.
taylor Posted January 30, 2009 Posted January 30, 2009 No and yes. Some people cheat because they need badly to distance themselves emotionally from their partner or from relationship problems that are causing them severe distress. I think it's one of the few cases where loving your spouse (and showing it) would be enough to stop the affair. This would be because the WS would rather be happy with his/her partner than be happy with the OW/OM. I agree with this as well, to a point. If the WS has not completely given up and checked out of the marriage, then I can see this working. As long as the WS still believes he/she can be happy with their partner, believes that the spouse and the marriage can actually change, and still has the desire to be with their partner, it's possible. But it is very difficult for a WS who has already checked out of the marriage mentally and emotionally and whose desires are raging for the OP, to do an about face and run back into the arms of their now loving spouse. I think this scenario happens more in the movies that in real life. I think it all depends on the degree of emotional detachment.
Adunaphel Posted January 30, 2009 Posted January 30, 2009 While I certainly agree with what's said, I need clarification on one point. The OP's example was of a busted affair - a dday - but continuance of the A. Does your answer incorporate that? Only if the affair was a kind of payback affair (or a (wrong, wrong) way to get a point across) and the WS did not really care about getting caught, or the WS thought that the relationship was already doomed. It is the only reason I can think of why someone who would rather be with his/her partner would continue the affair after it was discovered. BTW... if the original question had been "can you love someone into not making them cheat again?" my answer would have been a little different, as I would have included some first-time cheaters.
taylor Posted January 30, 2009 Posted January 30, 2009 Only if the affair was a kind of payback affair (or a (wrong, wrong) way to get a point across) and the WS did not really care about getting caught, or the WS thought that the relationship was already doomed. It is the only reason I can think of why someone who would rather be with his/her partner would continue the affair after it was discovered. BTW... if the original question had been "can you love someone into not making them cheat again?" my answer would have been a little different, as I would have included some first-time cheaters. I can think of another reason why a WS would want to continue an affair after D-day and still want to be with their spouse: The WS is getting something from each relationship and doesn't want to give either one up.
Adunaphel Posted January 30, 2009 Posted January 30, 2009 The WS is getting something from each relationship and doesn't want to give either one up. In which case I am not so sure their partner could ever love them enough. A lady I know had two emotional affairs in a row because "she loves her bf to death, she is sure he is the right guy fo her, she would never leave him, yet she can love two men at the same time and since the EA provides her with the romance she misses from the relationship and she is not taking away anything from the relationship, she feels fine with having the EAs". This thread made me think of her.
taylor Posted January 31, 2009 Posted January 31, 2009 In which case I am not so sure their partner could ever love them enough. A lady I know had two emotional affairs in a row because "she loves her bf to death, she is sure he is the right guy fo her, she would never leave him, yet she can love two men at the same time and since the EA provides her with the romance she misses from the relationship and she is not taking away anything from the relationship, she feels fine with having the EAs". This thread made me think of her. And this is why it's next to impossible to get a WS to end an affair by giving them more love. The WS will take what he/she can get from both relationships as long as both are willing to give it. The only way to make the WS choose between the two relationships is to stop loving the WS...pull back..distance yourself. Give the WS an opportunity to feel what it would be like to live without you. Give the WS a chance to miss you. Even more importantly, you send a clear message to the WS that you will not tolerate sharing him/her with a lover. The WS will do one of two things...forsake the marriage and run to the OP if he/she will have him/her. Or the WS will choose the marriage and end the affair. Either way you find out where the WS's heart lies and you force a decision between the marriage and the affair. Otherwise you hang in limbo, showering the WS with love, while the WS enjoys both relationships. For how long? As long as you let it go on.
NoIDidn't Posted January 31, 2009 Posted January 31, 2009 Otherwise you hang in limbo, showering the WS with love, while the WS enjoys both relationships. For how long? As long as you let it go on. Not to mention, I don't think the Plan A as presented on MB website works anyway. No one can "Plan A" indefinitely which is why they have the Plan B. When you are dealing with a wayward that's decided that you will never change or that the marriage will never change and they are just waiting for you to file for divorce, loving them more is not likely to be convincing and will just be too little, too late. If you've tried the changing for the wayward before, as I did before any EA ever happened, it won't work on them. The best thing you can ever do is to work on yourself and let them know that you care but you will not be trying to convince them of anything. No smothering them with love and attention, no ignoring them and demanding that they make a decision. Just work on you. Most of the of new marriage saving, divorce busting sites out now push this angle as research shows that when one person in a relationship makes positive change that starts to stick, the other usually follows.
Virgo1982 Posted January 31, 2009 Posted January 31, 2009 Why would you fail at reconciliation if the WS never said anything about their concerns? I don't think anyone can say that they didn't do anything to damage a relationship. So are you saying now that if you felt unfairly wronged by an affair that you wouldn't be able to "love them back" into the marriage? Just trying to understand your view. Unless you have the ability to read minds, your partner has to communicate his/her feelings. How can you ever maintain a relationship if the partner cheats instead of taking the effort to express themself? My point is, at least have the decency to put the problem in front of me-if I am not aware. If I ignore and continue without making an effort, I would be more willing to work things out later. The view you questioned is based on someone who is a serial cheater. No matter who he/she's with-no matter what's going on in the relationship-they just cheat for cheating's sake. Why and how could you stay in a situation like that? As another poster pointed out, the question is not whether you love them, but if they love you. Linking that view to the other post, a BS who stays with a serial cheater becomes a doormat. Any other situation can be analyzed on a case-by-case basis.
NoIDidn't Posted January 31, 2009 Posted January 31, 2009 The view you questioned is based on someone who is a serial cheater. No matter who he/she's with-no matter what's going on in the relationship-they just cheat for cheating's sake. Why and how could you stay in a situation like that? As another poster pointed out, the question is not whether you love them, but if they love you. Linking that view to the other post, a BS who stays with a serial cheater becomes a doormat. Any other situation can be analyzed on a case-by-case basis. I'm not sure where you are going with this. I never said anything about a serial cheater. Is that what you are saying the cheater is in the circumstance you are describing?
NoIDidn't Posted January 31, 2009 Posted January 31, 2009 My understanding of what the OP meant when she started the thread was that you find out that your spouse is cheating on you with someone, but they won't end that relationship. Not that you busted them and they started another affair with someone else. I'm not following some of the answers because I'm using a different script.
Virgo1982 Posted January 31, 2009 Posted January 31, 2009 I'm not sure where you are going with this. I never said anything about a serial cheater. Is that what you are saying the cheater is in the circumstance you are describing? Yes, that's what I'm saying. I was agreeing/responding to the post I quoted. You asked me to clarify...
Virgo1982 Posted January 31, 2009 Posted January 31, 2009 My understanding of what the OP meant when she started the thread was that you find out that your spouse is cheating on you with someone, but they won't end that relationship. Not that you busted them and they started another affair with someone else. I'm not following some of the answers because I'm using a different script. Well the post I was responding to before you asked me to clarify had addressed that situation. I understand what the OP was asking, but we were talking about a different aspect. That's all.
NoIDidn't Posted January 31, 2009 Posted January 31, 2009 Yes, that's what I'm saying. I was agreeing/responding to the post I quoted. You asked me to clarify... Okay, because I am getting confused when new terms come into the responses. lol
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