Still Trying Posted January 27, 2009 Posted January 27, 2009 First Post, Hello - I'm currently in a committed relationship of about 3 months. While this is a short time I realize I've found myself very attached to this woman. It's become quite clear that she doesn't feel the same about me and it's very frustrating. There are of course mixed signals and while we communicate very well I still leave our difficult conversations unsatisfied. She has a career. I, admittedly, only have a job - her business has been keeping her very busy. She travels a lot and I am usually nestled in my apartment after work. Last week we saw each other two times, and both of these times I had to initiate these encounters - these were brief moments of joy for me as when we are together and she's not distracted by work or her friends I really love it. The thing is that she's generally very distracted by work and friends. For example: this weekend she was away on business and was traveling with an old friend. She got back into town Sunday night, fairly late around 9. She calls, but there's no invitation to her place until I hint at it for a bit. Ok, that makes me feel weird but I go over there any way. I walk in the door and her and her friend are on the couch checking and responding to emails. She gives me the "just a minute" hand signal, right! I haven't seen her in about 3 days and I need to wait to give her a hug until she's ready for me. Later we ended up watching a really stupid movie and almost falling asleep on the couch. We went to bed and we were both really tired - don't get me wrong I haven't had sex with her in almost a week and I wanted to but I could have very easily gone with out it. I was completely content just holding on to my girlfriend for a little while. She initiated sex, so we did it. It's always great, but that's not my concern here, it's the actual sleeping arrangements. She has an older dog, who snores and keeps me up much of the time. I love the dog, she's sweet and some times I can deal with it but that night the dog would NOT stop snoring one bit. I tried moving the dog out of the room but she (the dog) was not having it. Meanwhile my girlfriend is asleep and I didn't expect her to get up and help me, sure would have been nice though huh? Nope, so I gave up and kissed her on her forehead and explained that I couldn't sleep with the dog in the room and had to leave. So... here I am 2am and I'm driving back to my lonely apartment. I'm in this relationship and honestly I feel more alone now than when I was single! Later she tells me that she was confused by this move on my part, it's not the first time I had to bail because of the dog. Shouldn't we just move her into another room? If she's not willing to put me in front of her dog, this is a warning signal right!? This pretty much exemplifies our entire relationship within the last 2 months at least. I feel like I'm hanging on to that first great initial month that we were together where she was completely different. She was very supportive of me and my interests, she wanted to spend a lot of time with me, and we were having a great time. It's almost as though she flipped a switch one day and turned it back about three notches! The mixed signals part? Well she's always commenting about doing these fun trips together, trips to the beach, camping trips, she's always eager to show me off to friends, etc... I just don't get it. I feel as though that I'm the one putting in all the effort right now and I don't think that she really has the time or energy for a real relationship. She says this will all change in February. I guess I owe it that much to wait a bit more. In her last relationship she was in a very intense situation living with her boyfriend, and her boyfriend's daughter. I don't get a lot of details about that but I get that he didn't communicate very well and one day out of no where kicked her out of the house. It wasn't a pleasant break up I guess. So I can see where she wants to take things slow with me. The thing is that I want a live in girlfriend again and I think I really want to make a life long commitment with someone, I'm not sure she's ever going to feel that way about me though. Since we've only been dating for just over 3 months it does seem like it's way too soon to bring any of this up? I'm either in an unhealthy situation where I'm in love with the wrong person, or this is a temporary place for her and she'll come around again. I really need to tell her that I love her I think, but I don't want to say that for the wrong reasons, and honestly if she keeps treating me this way I'm not sure I'd still love her anyway. In my last relationship I said the "I love you" thing too soon and sure enough I was wrong, or my feelings changed quickly. I'm really trying to hold on to those words a bit longer and I feel troubled by my own indecisiveness at times. This isn't coming easy for me at all, and in the past at least the first parts of relationships ARE EASY! If it's like this at only 3 months, what would 3 years be like? I want to make a real effort with this but at the same time I'm honesty very unhappy. I think I know what I need to do but... Any words of advice or encouragement would be appreciated! thanks!
carhill Posted January 27, 2009 Posted January 27, 2009 There's probably a lot more to why she was kicked out of her last BF's house. IMO, the most important thing to remember is that, no matter how busy one is, if they're interested in you, truly interested, they will make time for you and express that interest to you. They will expand their time to include you in it. Business or no business, crisis or no crisis. Even if it's just snippets, they'll prioritize that connection. Do you sense that here? I think she likely needs a vacation from you. I'd be honest with her about my unhappiness and suggest actions or words she can employ to mitigate it. Reasonable actions/words.....our MC calls it "bending". If her response is uncaring, terminate her. A businesswoman can take rejection
Author Still Trying Posted January 27, 2009 Author Posted January 27, 2009 There's probably a lot more to why she was kicked out of her last BF's house. IMO, the most important thing to remember is that, no matter how busy one is, if they're interested in you, truly interested, they will make time for you and express that interest to you. They will expand their time to include you in it. Business or no business, crisis or no crisis. Even if it's just snippets, they'll prioritize that connection. Do you sense that here? I think she likely needs a vacation from you. I'd be honest with her about my unhappiness and suggest actions or words she can employ to mitigate it. Reasonable actions/words.....our MC calls it "bending". If her response is uncaring, terminate her. A businesswoman can take rejection I believe everything you say to be true. Of course we all leave out little details of past relationships because we don't want to turn off our current mate. Ok, little details is a really nice way of putting it, I get that she's leaving out part of her story about the past BF, or at the very least it's only her side of it. Thank you for affirming my beliefs about free time! I've actually wanted to say this to her, no matter how busy you get you'll always make time for the things you truly care about. What I sense here is that I'm absolutely not a priority right now. I'm holding onto the hope, (and some of her own words) that this will all change very soon - again I feel like I should give it a little more time. She has told me that this will all change in February. Being that February is next week, I think I can give it until then. That seems reasonable to me. We've had more than one very important talk about our relationship and I've told her that I need more than what's she's giving now - it all ends with smiles and hugs, but she never tells me what I want to hear to be truthful. I suppose I'm just continuing to get mixed signals from her. It feels like a roller coaster for me high when I'm around her, and hurt and low when she doesn't have time for me.
carhill Posted January 27, 2009 Posted January 27, 2009 Here's another LS'ism thrown out for your consumption and consideration... When a woman says negative words, believe her. Example would be "I don't want to be in a relationship right now". Without inferring anything, this means go away. When a woman says positive words, look to her actions to back them up. Example- "I've been real busy and am sorry I haven't called; things should be better by the end of the week and we can make it up then". Watch for her actions to follow those words. If they don't, hold her accountable. The key here is respect. This is the single biggest clarity I took away from MC. I learned to clearly define and communicate my boundaries and command respect for them. This in no way means my wife is peachy keen and hunky dory with everything; in fact, she's mad at me more than she ever was. My work is accepting that anger and processing it as her feelings and her responsibility. I'm not responsible for her feelings, only for my words and actions. I can "care" about her feelings, and do. Does this make any sense in the context of your dynamic? Hey, free counseling!
Author Still Trying Posted January 27, 2009 Author Posted January 27, 2009 Does this make any sense in the context of your dynamic? Hey, free counseling! Absolutely! I'm dwelling on this situation for certain, and I know it's not healthy but unfortunately I have found myself with a lot more free time than my gf. I certainly appreciate your advice and time, thanks so much! Here's one last question for today at least: Should I be absolutely clear and specific with what I need in the relationship? For instance, we generally only spend two nights a week together, at least sleeping over situations. I want to spend more time with her, specifically during the evenings. This might seem like crazy talk from a male but sometimes I think she's only interested in me for the sex - should I confront her about this? Part of me just wants to put it all on the table at this point, what's left to lose? The other part just wants her to want all these things automatically and I feel like if I tell her what I want/need and she complies she'll only be doing it to keep me happy. It's obvious that she enjoys her alone and girlfriend time more than I do and I don't want to take that away from her, but at the same time I'm sitting here completely unsatisfied. Ugh. Time for another difficult conversation! Thanks again, I really do appreciate your insight.
RRyan65 Posted January 27, 2009 Posted January 27, 2009 Here's one last question for today at least: Should I be absolutely clear and specific with what I need in the relationship? For instance, we generally only spend two nights a week together, at least sleeping over situations. I want to spend more time with her, specifically during the evenings. This might seem like crazy talk from a male but sometimes I think she's only interested in me for the sex - should I confront her about this? Part of me just wants to put it all on the table at this point, what's left to lose? The other part just wants her to want all these things automatically and I feel like if I tell her what I want/need and she complies she'll only be doing it to keep me happy. It seems like you've already had this talk with her and she still doesn't respond: We've had more than one very important talk about our relationship and I've told her that I need more than what's she's giving now - it all ends with smiles and hugs, but she never tells me what I want to hear to be truthful. I suppose I'm just continuing to get mixed signals from her. It feels like a roller coaster for me high when I'm around her, and hurt and low when she doesn't have time for me. My view is that she is well aware of your frustration, but she's going to take it at her own pace, until YOU show action. That action is pulling away from her. Do it.
Author Still Trying Posted January 27, 2009 Author Posted January 27, 2009 It seems like you've already had this talk with her and she still doesn't respond: My view is that she is well aware of your frustration, but she's going to take it at her own pace, until YOU show action. That action is pulling away from her. Do it. You're right. I've been giving too much and it's left her feeling in complete control. I've tried pulling away but I have such strong feelings for her that it's hard for me to do this.
carhill Posted January 27, 2009 Posted January 27, 2009 I'm going to suggest something completely wonky. Express to her your desire to spend more quality time with her. Couch it in positive words, like "I love it when we're together; it seems like time passes so quickly; I'd like to see you more often than twice a week, even if just for lunch or dinner. I understand how busy you are. How do you feel about that?" Listen. Concurrently, ramp up your interests and activities to equal priority. This is important. A woman cares more when she has to earn the place in your busy life. Do not be afraid of conflict. Such does two things...it earns you respect and engages her emotions. Even though you think the latter is wrong (negative emotion) it doesn't really work that way. The negative emotion causes her to think and reflect, and often will impel her to re-evaluate her behavior. To really love you, she has to respect you. Communicate, listen, then act. Your actions should validate your words.
RRyan65 Posted January 27, 2009 Posted January 27, 2009 Concurrently, ramp up your interests and activities to equal priority. This is important. A woman cares more when she has to earn the place in your busy life. Do not be afraid of conflict. Such does two things...it earns you respect and engages her emotions. Even though you think the latter is wrong (negative emotion) it doesn't really work that way. The negative emotion causes her to think and reflect, and often will impel her to re-evaluate her behavior. To really love you, she has to respect you. Communicate, listen, then act. Your actions should validate your words. No words were ever truer. It is definitely hard to pull back when you have strong feelings for her, but those feelings are what can mess up your situation even more. Its counterintuitive to think that us having strong feelings for a woman can actually put her in a comfort zone and end up causing us grief. But its true. The key-word here is respect. A woman shows devotion and attention to a man she respects. A man (even though you've been trying to hold back) who shows considerably more interest in her than she does in him gives the woman ZERO incentive to cater to his needs. Why should she? She gets out of you anything she wants, while giving you the bare minimum. We all behave this way in different social situations, we get as much as we can, while giving up as little as possible. Simple economics. TO get your goods, you're going to have to make her pay more for them. The price? Respect and devotion. It is no surprise men get caught into this cycle (happened to me for a short period of time)
Author Still Trying Posted January 27, 2009 Author Posted January 27, 2009 I'm going to suggest something completely wonky. Express to her your desire to spend more quality time with her. Couch it in positive words, like "I love it when we're together; it seems like time passes so quickly; I'd like to see you more often than twice a week, even if just for lunch or dinner. I understand how busy you are. How do you feel about that?" Listen. I've done this. I've completely gone out of my way to spend even the smallest amount of time with her. What I've gotten in return has been very little, a small talk sort of email here, a boring "how was your day" phone call here (yes that's important stuff, I get that but I'm looking for more, I want to physically be with her). When I express my feelings the response I get is, "that's just the way it's going to be for now" - it's the "for now" part that I'm holding onto. To really love you, she has to respect you. Communicate, listen, then act. Your actions should validate your words. Indeed. I'm not sure that she does respect me. I also think that she's attracted to underachievers such as myself for some reason, probably because she needs to have the power.
Author Still Trying Posted January 27, 2009 Author Posted January 27, 2009 No words were ever truer. It is definitely hard to pull back when you have strong feelings for her, but those feelings are what can mess up your situation even more. Its counterintuitive to think that us having strong feelings for a woman can actually put her in a comfort zone and end up causing us grief. But its true. The key-word here is respect. A woman shows devotion and attention to a man she respects. A man (even though you've been trying to hold back) who shows considerably more interest in her than she does in him gives the woman ZERO incentive to cater to his needs. Why should she? She gets out of you anything she wants, while giving you the bare minimum. We all behave this way in different social situations, we get as much as we can, while giving up as little as possible. Simple economics. TO get your goods, you're going to have to make her pay more for them. The price? Respect and devotion. It is no surprise men get caught into this cycle (happened to me for a short period of time) Again this makes perfect sense, thank you. I didn't see it that way at all, I'm absolutely giving her everything that SHE needs and why would she give more when it's clear that I'll bend over backwards for her. Now is the time for action (or inaction in this case maybe?)! ok, I'm off to the real world now. Looking forward to future responses and insights (it's almost like you guys know what you're talking about)!
Star Gazer Posted January 27, 2009 Posted January 27, 2009 Shouldn't we just move her into another room? If she's not willing to put me in front of her dog, this is a warning signal right!? She was SLEEPING when you were dealing with the dog, and yet you express resentment that she wasn't helping you move the dog out of the room. Is she supposed to have a dream that tells her you want to move the dog out of the room, a dream that will wake her and help you? If I'm passed out sleeping, and even if my BF woke me to tell me he was having trouble sleeping and leaving, I'd probably let him... because I'm about .25% conscious when woken that way. The thing is that I want a live in girlfriend again and I think I really want to make a life long commitment with someone, I'm not sure she's ever going to feel that way about me though. Since we've only been dating for just over 3 months it does seem like it's way too soon to bring any of this up? Yes, WAY TOO SOON! I'm either in an unhealthy situation where I'm in love with the wrong person, or this is a temporary place for her and she'll come around again. I really need to tell her that I love her I think, but I don't want to say that for the wrong reasons, and honestly if she keeps treating me this way I'm not sure I'd still love her anyway. In my last relationship I said the "I love you" thing too soon and sure enough I was wrong, or my feelings changed quickly. I'm really trying to hold on to those words a bit longer and I feel troubled by my own indecisiveness at times. This isn't coming easy for me at all, and in the past at least the first parts of relationships ARE EASY! If it's like this at only 3 months, what would 3 years be like? I want to make a real effort with this but at the same time I'm honesty very unhappy. I think I know what I need to do but... You don't love her, nor did you love the last woman. The fact that you're so indecisive yourself and your feelings changed so quickly after saying those words proves this. Yes, relationships should be EASY, but YOU are the one making it difficult!
Author Still Trying Posted January 28, 2009 Author Posted January 28, 2009 She was SLEEPING when you were dealing with the dog, and yet you express resentment that she wasn't helping you move the dog out of the room. Is she supposed to have a dream that tells her you want to move the dog out of the room, a dream that will wake her and help you? If I'm passed out sleeping, and even if my BF woke me to tell me he was having trouble sleeping and leaving, I'd probably let him... because I'm about .25% conscious when woken that way. Moving the dog in another room on potential future sleepovers, I worded that badly - I wasn't expecting her to wake up in fact I knew that I was waking her up a lot during all this and since I couldn't find a solution for dog snores at 2am I politely excused myself. Here's the thing, she didn't seem stoked about moving the dog into another room when we talked about it the next day. I suggested ear plugs and she liked that idea better. I get the whole compromise thing but ideally I'd just like it better if the dog was out of the room. I've already lost a bunch of sleep in that situation. I understand her unwillingness to move her life around for a guy she just met and is still getting to know but this doesn't thrill me of course. Yes, WAY TOO SOON! For you, for her, and realistically for me too if I could look at this objectively! If I could do that I wouldn't be on this forum though. You're right and I know this. I'm probably expecting too much from her, ok I am. You don't love her, nor did you love the last woman. The fact that you're so indecisive yourself and your feelings changed so quickly after saying those words proves this. Yes, relationships should be EASY, but YOU are the one making it difficult! I think I felt love at the time that I said it. It did fade quickly though and therefore this time around I'm really holding back saying it, rather I've been trying to show it instead. The part that hurts, all of this comes from the fact that she doesn't seem to feel the same way. All of our interactions seem to happen in public lately, or when her friends are around. Her work has been really stressful for her lately, and here I am making it worse. Still I see my friends with their significant others and they spend time together doing fun things. Yes, I'm comparing my relationship to others' but that's what I want, I want to date a girl who is crazy about me. Maybe this could be a more mature sort of love than I'm used to dealing with. She's very level headed and I am not. Hm. Big talk tonight, we had a horrible phone conversation last night that I initiated and I feel like we're on the cusp of ending it. I'm trying really hard to be rational about the whole situation, and I'm failing which is why I think I'm in love with this person.
Author Still Trying Posted January 28, 2009 Author Posted January 28, 2009 Ok, here's the new one: "I don't want to be in an intense relationship right now" What does that mean? It means she doesn't want the same things I do right?
carhill Posted January 28, 2009 Posted January 28, 2009 She wants to sleep with the dog only FWIW, that earplug cr@p is just bogus. I wear the effing things all day in the shop and no way am I going to wear them all night just because my wife snores. That's what multi-bedroom homes were invented for. The cat keeps me warm
Author Still Trying Posted January 28, 2009 Author Posted January 28, 2009 She wants to sleep with the dog only FWIW, that earplug cr@p is just bogus. I wear the effing things all day in the shop and no way am I going to wear them all night just because my wife snores. That's what multi-bedroom homes were invented for. The cat keeps me warm Oh yes, god bless the cat. He provides unconditional love and there's no difficult conversations!
carhill Posted January 28, 2009 Posted January 28, 2009 Sleeping on my lap as I type this with wife merrily snoring away in bedroom Beware though....cats are as unpredictable as women and have 20 switchblades to remind you of that reality
Author Still Trying Posted January 28, 2009 Author Posted January 28, 2009 Sleeping on my lap as I type this with wife merrily snoring away in bedroom Beware though....cats are as unpredictable as women and have 20 switchblades to remind you of that reality sounds like a fine set up. I'm fully aware of his capabilities - I've seen him run off dogs 20X his size! The brown snoring dog is scared of him too!
Author Still Trying Posted January 28, 2009 Author Posted January 28, 2009 I think a video of this would be helpful I'll see what I can do.
Author Still Trying Posted January 29, 2009 Author Posted January 29, 2009 We had a big talk. It wasn't an easy talk but we both came to the conclusion that we need to give each other a little bit more of what we both need. I agreed to give her the space she needs and deserves and I think she finally gets that I need to see her more often than I do. The poor girl is working 12 - 15 hour days literally and I need to support her right now which basically means that I don't bug her too much and understand that it's a temp situation for her and that things will change. It felt really good to put it out on the table like that. I think I'm starting to learn to click back the dial a few notches. She explained to me that when she is trying to get all of her work done she often has to switch off her emotions, I was picking up on that and taking it personally - she let me know tonight that it wasn't me that she's pulling away from, it's basically everything. I feel lucky to have her and a little thing like a text telling me that she misses me goes a million miles. Of course there's things to work on still but I feel so much closer to her now than ever before. thanks for reading.
Star Gazer Posted January 29, 2009 Posted January 29, 2009 I agreed to give her the space she needs and deserves and I think she finally gets that I need to see her more often than I do. Hmph. How exactly is that going to work? How are you going to give her space while also getting to see her more often? I think I'm starting to learn to click back the dial a few notches. She explained to me that when she is trying to get all of her work done she often has to switch off her emotions, I was picking up on that and taking it personally - she let me know tonight that it wasn't me that she's pulling away from, it's basically everything. I'm glad you've *somewhat* figured out how to dial it back a bit. She sounds like a professional woman in a demanding position, like me. I can understand her distancing herself from you at times - the last thing a gal like that needs is a demanding, needy BF. Of course there's things to work on still but I feel so much closer to her now than ever before. That's what it's all about: expressing your needs, figuring out theirs, and seeing if they work together. Hope it works out for you!
Author Still Trying Posted January 29, 2009 Author Posted January 29, 2009 Hmph. How exactly is that going to work? How are you going to give her space while also getting to see her more often? Ok, very valid question. how about this: I'm going to really try to be OK with not seeing her quite as much as I want and hopefully she'll be able to provide me with more of her free time. We talked a lot about balance, friends, dogs, jobs, significant others and how that all fits into our lives. I may come across as quite needy here, and I suppose I do feel that way a lot lately but in reality I have already given her a lot of space - the problem was that I was resenting her while I was doing this. I have to stop that resentment and turn it into respect or I'll never be able to date her, or any other professional woman for that matter. I'm learning. Conversely I need what I need, and dammit I deserve spending time with someone that I care about! I've really never dated women before, really I've only dated girls up until a year or so ago - seriously. I'm 30 and have really never dated any one with a career before, I guess that's weird but I spent most of my 20's jumping from one LTR to the next none of which were career women at all. I'm glad you've *somewhat* figured out how to dial it back a bit. She sounds like a professional woman in a demanding position, like me. I can understand her distancing herself from you at times - the last thing a gal like that needs is a demanding, needy BF. exactly. I had that epiphany while she was explaining all of her current demands. I've gained a new level of appreciation for what she does now. We'll see how well I do. I've been told many times by her that this all changes in February - I should have just been patient but I'm also glad it came to this because it stripped it all back to some raw emotions that I had going on that were really upsetting me - she saw all of that and could have reacted either way. Luckily for me she reacted positively and admitted that she had been neglecting me - also stated that it was hard for her to be upset with me because I obviously care about her very deeply (which is true). That's what it's all about: expressing your needs, figuring out theirs, and seeing if they work together. Hope it works out for you!One thing I am good at is telling people how I feel. I think we generally communicate very well - just had a little blip. Thanks for your input!
Author Still Trying Posted January 31, 2009 Author Posted January 31, 2009 bumping this only so maybe some more folks can provide some insight. Last night was her last day of 13+ hours days. He had a good time and as we were both really tired we fell asleep on the couch in the middle of a movie. She made some comment about being too tired for sex - I still thinks she thinks that sex is ultra important to me. We cuddled all night and it was amazing, much more important to me than the f u c king. What's more you ask? Well thanks for asking! She put the dog out of her room without me saying a word about it, when she came back in a simple "thank you" was all that I could say. It made me feel pretty swell... She initiated a double date tonight with myself and some mutual friends, after that I think we will go dancing... feeling better about this now...
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