Cloud on the Horizon

[Chinook]

Okay, unless you want to read through all my old threads, I need to give a bit of back story. I'll try to be brief.

 

2002 - Diagnosed with aggressive cancer & had aggressive treatment. Chemo, radiotherapy, surgery etc. Partner (J) disappeared to work in USA even though his employer offered him 6 months paid leave to take care of me (I'm in UK). I was devastated to be left alone as well as being ill.

 

2003 - Recovered (10 months treatment). Tried to get back to normal. Relationship problems due to emotional distance & being abandoned at a critical time in my life. Grieving.

 

2004 - Split with J. Didn't really deal with it all and stuffed the grief down in order to carry on coping.

 

2005 - Met P. Grew really close & felt really happy. 6 months into relationship a friend happens to mention P is considering proposal for marriage. I panicked. At the same time J wanted to 'talk' and get some closure on what happened - he asked about reconciliation. I didn't consider it but it opened a door to my grief and I wondered about 'getting my life back'. It also made it clear to me that I wasn't ready to be in a relationship with P and it was very unfair to him to continue and hope that things would work out. Everything was too soon and I ended the relationship. I did explain everything to P and he understood but naturally, he was very very heartbroken because he had trusted me completely. This, I understand and have been very very careful with him and his feelings since.

 

Fast forward to 2008 - P and I have always had contact albeit only brief and very sporadic. Dec 2008 I send a 'merry christmas' email as I'm going to be away over the holiday period. He replies with a longer than usual response and I detect he's p'ed off, so I outright ask him what happened. It transpires that there is some 'girl trouble' where he'd asked someone out and she declined so he felt like an eejit. This girl is his triathlon training partner so they spend a lot of time together. We get together for dinner just to catch up and chat.

 

What happens then is really mind blowing. Over the course of a few days, we somehow end up deciding that we'd like to get back together and give it another shot. We both think it's worth it. Naturally, we are both rather cautious. But I tell him I am very sure that I am ready to do this now. All my issues are resolved - I had even dated in the intervening period and been dumped and that taught me alot about myself. But, P admits fully that had I not stayed in contact he wouldn't have contacted me. I had consistently stayed in contact with him, periodically asking how he was, wishing him well with races etc. I made an effort to show that although I wasn't ready for a relationship, he was still important to me - important enough that I was prepared to step aside for him to find someone who could make him happy. I didn't date anyone else until last year and was shortly dumped thereafter.

 

I ask him outright how he can go from asking one girl out, to getting back together with an ex partner...? I make it clear that I'm worried that rebound is an issue even if they didn't actually have a relationship. He puts it to me that maybe it was the other way around and that SHE is/was the rebound. Considering how close we were, I don't find this entirely unbelievable. Plus he states that he had lost all his anger for me and he was prepared to talk and listen to what happened - I explained it to him in very fine detail (even about the grief reopening which was caused by my ex partner J and wishing for my life before cancer). The things I explain are true and logical and I'm in no way histrionic about these things. I basically let him go, for his sake... I felt that taking up his time when my perception of the time we have here, is precious and I felt at that stage I didn't have anything to offer him because I was still unresolved in coping with the grief of having cancer, losing my previous life and partner. I felt I did the right thing. I simply wasn't ready. He agreed with me and he also explained that he was unable to see anything but his anger until now and that's how he can consider reconciliation.

 

But he has still never really revealed the true nature of the relationship with the girl he has a lot of contact with (this is the source of my problem post today) and he doesn't say despite my asking, whether I am 'fall back' or rebound girl so that is a real worry for me. He had made a comment some time ago during a conversation we had about people's relationship principles these days. I said I didn't understand the whole FWB thing and the 'its a realtionship but we wont call it one' thing... he commented 'yea, you can even spend alot of time together with someone and sleep with them, and it's still not a relationship'. That kinda stung. I didn't know whether he was talking about me or about this previous girl.

 

During December we get along really well - so much so that he decides on the last moment to come on holiday with me to Canada (snowboarding) during the Christmas/NY holiday period. Canada is kinda special to me (I'm from the UK) and to take someone with me and share it is really a huge step and he knows this. He was very surprised I asked him. But as I said to him, there isn't anyone else I would rather share it with.

 

The day before the holiday we go shopping and during that trip he buys me a new snowboard, new boots and some other kit. I am adamant that he will be paid back (he will). But what amazes me is that he does it at all. During our holiday I have a fall and sustain a very serious head injury where I have a brain haemorrhage and am admitted to hospital in Calgary. When I wake up, the first thing I ask for is P. This makes him really teary because in an unconscious state when you're just coming round, saying someone's name who you care about is not something you can fake. He knows then that he can trust me. Since then he's been more forthcoming with how he feels. Not overly gushing, but he's not like that anyhow. This week I stayed at his house for the first time instead of him always staying with me. He wrote me an email this week saying he likes his house better when I am in it because it makes it feel more like home. Like I said, P is not overly emotional (neither am I) so this was a big step to tell me something like this.

 

My problem is his training. Emotionally I don't think the girl concerned is that much of a problem because I do think he's committed to me. But my problem is that E (the girl) has previously had him running around after her, getting him to give her lifts here and there, getting him to mend her bikes etc. I'm not too bothered that they train together but I'm concerned that she's doing the 'now its gone, I want it' thing because he's now got a girlfriend. She has already told him that she doesn't approve of exes getting back together. She has also already said that he's now 'rubbish' because he's got a girlfriend. What she means by that is that he doesn't do as much for her as he did. My concern is that because of the amount of time they spend together, eventually he may decide that our second chance isn't worth it. I know I have to trust him and he has already said he won't give up all his training and friends to be with me (which is what he did last time despite me asking him not to do so). Like I said, I don't have a problem with him training, but I have a problem with him being manipulated by E. For example last weekend she wrote him an email asking 'are you okay to still give me a lift to training..?'. He didn't actually want to go because I was still fairly poorly last weekend but he felt he had to go because he had already agreed to take her and he didnt want to let her down. She of course knows this. The problem was, her landlord was also going to that session so she didn't actually need P to give her a lift. As it was I was sick and he had to come home, so the landlord gave her a lift home. It amazed me that P couldnt see this blatant manipulation. It's clear she doesn't like him not running around after her.

 

I don't know how to handle it. On the one hand we're getting along really well... except when the issue of E comes up. It's really bugging me and I wouldn't mind if it was outright jealousy. But it isn't. One of the comments he made to me when we were chatting over dinner (before reconciling) was that I always pick unavailable men (I had told him about the guy who dumped me last year who went back to his wife). It occurred to me today though... I've done it again haven't I...? It might be someone I know and care about. But his commitment to his 'friend' and his training means he may as well be in another relationship. He's totally unavailable about those things. Doesn't discuss them and doesn't share anything about what goes on, how much contact they have etc .... which of course makes me feel like I'm the ridiculous witch of the GF... when I'm not. (sigh)

 

What do you guys think...? How would you handle it...?

[Ria10]

If P were interested in pursuing a relationship with E, he would do so... especially since she seems to be interested in him. Maybe she's the backup girl. Can you blame him though for keeping her around, for the ego boost, or whatever, especially after he was in love you and you broke his heart? Forget about J, forget about E. The question is, do you truly want to be with P? Are you just pointing to E as an excuse for continuing to avoid commitment with P? Maybe you're scared to trust P, given that J abandoned you at your most vulnerable moment? It sounds like P is a sincere guy who deserves a chance, though it may take some time to rebuild the trust between you 2 (though that process seems to already have begun).

[sally4sara]

Having had guy friends that I truly only thought of as guy friend who ended up confessing romantic hopes, I can tell you that it is a let down. Even if they seem to take it in stride and still hang as only friends, you're left wondering just how sincere that friendship actually is.

 

Now think of your friends. Do none of them ever help you out with things? Do you share interests with them? What if you already wondered about the sincerity of one of your friend's intentions AND all of the sudden, they couldn't be counted on like they once could. Can you see why you might feel a bit salty and make some biting remarks?

 

I am also wondering just why P feels the need to tell you every one of her biting remarks? Maybe he thinks/hopes there is something more to it than just frustration within the friendship? And just maybe he is trying to gauge how invested you are in him by seeing if it gets under your skin?

 

Above and beyond your territorial feelings about this girl, I think there is a big chance that this is all mostly paranoia. You know he was attracted to her and not just to her looks because he had the time to get to know her personality. I think THAT is what is bothering you and its making you look at things a little more sinister than they probably are.

[Chinook]

Thanks for your constructive reply Ria and yes, it is something that I thought about. But is it really fair to use another girl to test my commitment to him...? We all know that triangles never work out well. J is not in the picture now and hasn't been for a very long time. We're not even friends. E on the other hand probably sees my boyfriend as much as I do. She spends an awful lot of time with him and she's very good at getting him to run around after her. In my opinion the only woman who should be able to have that kind of closeness with him, is me. But that isn't happening. But it seems I have to accept it and not say anything.

 

Yesterday I tried to make some headway with this problem. One of the ground rules he stipulated when we reconciled was that we should discuss any and all problems. One of the things which split us up was that I tried to work through a problem (his proposal and my ex asking about reconciliation) by myself and I made my own choices (and royally screwed up). So one of his ground rules was that I take any and all problems to him and discuss it with him. So yesterday I knew I wasn't seeing him, so I explained it in an email (due to the head injury my memory is not so hot at the moment).

 

I explained that I felt this was a problem. I said directly that I have a problem with the KIND of contact he has with E rather than it being associated with their training. I also explained that I didn't expect HIM to fix it but he had asked me to share my problems to avoid resentment. That's what I did. I also offered what I thought was a viable solution. One of the major issues is that we cannot plan or do things because of his commitments and obligations to her and to their training. In my opinion that is not fair and he is putting the relationship and her before me. That's fine - but I should not have to see it (i.e. sit by myself when he has gone off to meet her - just how is that fair...?). So I offered a solution which I felt was viable for both of us. I said it was probably better that we avoided the conflict in scheduling due to HIS training and HIS friend and only saw each other on days when he isn't training. That way he wouldn't feel bad about going training and I wouldn't feel sidelined and that my time with him is limited on those days. It seemed a logical and easy solution. Yes it would cut down the number of days seeing each other but I felt it was worth it in order to avoid a problem with resentment (me) and an ultimatum (him). I didn't want him to have to choose or to avoid training with her.

 

Well... good intentions and all that. He read the email and didn't acknowledge it. I spoke to him last night and he said he wanted to see me this weekend (despite my explaining how the conflicts with his scheduling made me feel). He said he wasn't mad at me - except he hasn't spoken to me since.

 

So I dunno what to do now. I was asked to share a problem, I did. I was asked to try to figure things out, I did. I was asked to be patient, so I provided a solution which I felt would try to help that. And none of those things appear to be good enough. It seems that I was supposed to tolerate the situation with E whether I like it or not. It seems he is allowed to throw whatever he wants in order to test my trust and commitment.... I think using another person to do that is way out of line. But what can I do...? I don't want to walk. I don't want to tolerate what he's doing. I have explained my problem and it's been ignored. I've offered a solution and that has been ignored too. He's just simply dropped contact.

 

No idea what to do next. I tried to write a 'g'morning' text but I couldn't press send because I don't want him to be even more angry with me. At the back of my mind, I'm still feeling like he's punishing me for what happened and he doesn't realise he's doing it. The problem is I can only be punished and tested for so long before that kind of thing breaks this relationship. I don't have any commitment issues with him at all and he knows it - so why he's continuing to test me now, I have no idea.

[Chinook]

Above and beyond your territorial feelings about this girl, I think there is a big chance that this is all mostly paranoia. You know he was attracted to her and not just to her looks because he had the time to get to know her personality. I think THAT is what is bothering you and its making you look at things a little more sinister than they probably are.

Hi Sally - thanks for your reply. Have a look at my other response too and see what you think...? I do agree with you thay maybe a lot of this is paranoia and that's why I posted because I don't really know how to deal with it. But my problem now is that I have explained to him that I feel like there is a problem and even HE has agreed that E's demands at times are a pain in the arse. He has even said that sometimes she over-steps the line because she had him running around beforehand. I explained to him that I don't expect him to stop spending time with her or to stop training. That's not fair and it's not my decision to take. But I did offer what I thought was a solution which would take the pressure off us both when conflicts arise with his timing with her and training. I felt I was more than accommodating about it. I did not ask him to solve this problem or to quit. I made it very clear that I didn't expect him to give anything up for me. I also made it very clear that because he has these commitments, it would be easier for me if we see each other on scheduled days - that seemed to make sense for me. At least then I would have 'my time' with him which I could be protective about. I felt that was fair. But he's completely blanked me about it. Now I have no idea what to do.

[sally4sara]

But my problem now is that I have explained to him that I feel like there is a problem and even HE has agreed that E's demands at times are a pain in the arse. He has even said that sometimes she over-steps the line because she had him running around beforehand. I explained to him that I don't expect him to stop spending time with her or to stop training.

 

If the friendship style was built on his romantic interest in her and what he is willing to do for a girl he has interest in, but she thought of it as friendship only - this is totally on him to set right with her.

 

He needs to have a heart to heart with her in which he lets her know that most of the helping he gave her was in the hopes of something more. That more did not happen and he has moved on to a relationship with you. He can explain that he still values her as a training mate and casual friend, but all the gentlemanly favors need to get curbed now that his energy as a gentleman is being directed elsewhere.

 

The sticky part of this is by doing this he will basically have to admit to her that the friendship was not as sincere as it could've been and he might not like having to expose himself in that light - no one likes to admit they've been insincere. But this is the epitome of the term "manning up" if you ask me. Especially if he is going to tell you everything and complain to you about the favors she asks!

 

If he cannot "man up" and resolve not only your frustrations but frustrations he claims to have, then I would MAKE HIM STICK to what you've told him would be satisfactory to you and not see him on days he is training. I mean - you wouldn't want to get in the way of his gentlemanly training favors and whatnot! You can point out to him that having to have it in your face just makes you more mad to see him whipped by a girl he's not even dating and being too prideful to fix it.

 

One of the things I think you're going to have to guard yourself from is the feelings of guilt you might have from dumping him the first time. Yes, he's given you a second chance, but what good will it do for this current chance to be built on situations that don't meet your standards? You may feel lucky to get the second chance, but isn't it a second chance to see if the two of you are right for each other? It by no means guarantees that you will be. If things do work out, let them work out for real reasons and not because you lowered the bar for him out of guilt. It won't last if you do it that way.

 

Good luck.

[Chinook]

Hi Guys

 

I have a little update. Sally I could have written that post myself. Firstly, he has been avoiding me because firstly he was trying to process (a) that I HAD done what he asked and shared a problem and that I had done it in such a way that was logical and easy for him to understand and that he wasn't actually required to 'fix it' thereby not required to make himself uncomfortable with E but also, (b) that I had scared him. He saw a problem, with a solution - but he didn't know how to make a response because he could see that I had a problem but he is SO scared of losing me a second time.

 

I explained that I cannot tell him to trust me and I cannot tell him that everything is okay, all I can do is tell him how I feel and let him see that I stand by my word. I had promised to share a problem, I stood by that. That showed him I was serious. As I have said previously, emotionally I don't think E is that much of a problem with HIM. But it's her manipulation which is the issue. P thinks he's being 'nice' by still being as much of a friend to her as he was. He doesn't think it is right for him to drop people just because he has a GF... which I happen to agree with. But I have explained to him (as Sara stated above) there are going to have to be some changes because some things which were appropriate whilst not having a GF are not so now. That's not me being jealous or territorial, thats simple relationship protection. I have told him that in my eyes, my solution to our problem although it means we see each other less, is actually a protective measure as long as he is committed to not over-stepping the boundaries with his friends. As Sara has said, he is going to have to 'man up' and have a discussion with her and explain things have to scale down. She is not a girl he is dating, therefore she doesn't get to have that place where he drops everything for her. It's not appropriate and she shouldn't expect it and he shouldn't feel he has to do that. He agreed - I suspect that part of his guilt about it comes from knowing he wasn't as sincere as he thought. It seems that E was his rebound/back up plan... but now things with us are back on track, she isn't required and he feels guilty about it. That's not my problem to solve, he has to work out a way to do that.

 

Finally, the dynamics of second chances usually encompass one person feeling guilty and one person not feeling like they can trust the other. Usually these dynamics will wreck a relationship before you get things figured out. I think we have worked fairly hard with this issue to make steps to overcome these issues. I have explained to him that I don't mind that he doesn't trust me yet. But that when I do something or say something and I demonstrate my trustworthiness, I expect him to take it for what it is and not assume that it's an ulterior motive. I have also explained that for us to move forward we have to let go of the past. He knows this and so do I. It will take time and I think he knows I am sincere about it. Finally, my guilt about dumping him. I don't feel guilty about dumping him. I feel sorry that he was hurt, sure I do and that lays heavily with me because I care about him an awful lot. But, at the time, the situation was fairly unique - I did not cheat with him and I have explained, I felt like because I wasn't ready to take that next step with him, I was STEALING his life. I felt I did not have the right to ask him to wait. I didn't know how long it would take. I did not change how I felt about him. I have explained that something which has become very clear to me over the last couple of years is that within a relationship, I DO have rights and responsibilities. I may still not be ready right now, but the difference is, I do feel I have the right to ask him to wait a little while. But also, I know that my responsibility is that I know HE too has that right and I will wait until he is ready. The mistake we (I) made last time was in thinking we couldn't ask that of each other. That is a major change which I am actually happy about. That's why I don't feel guilty now. I realise this is not going to be easy and he will be worried about me leaving. I can't tell him 'I'm always going to be here' because he can only believe that in his own time. I suspect that it may take a major commitment from me (such as moving in with him or getting married) and I think now, when he's ready, I'm ready to do that. We were never incompatible day-to-day so I don't have any worries about that. I think this looks good for us now. E seems to have become a minor problem since our talk this morning.

[Ariadne]

What do you guys think...? How would you handle it...?

 

When you said you had gotten together with and ex, I was wondering if it was famous J.

 

Well, what I think is that guys are not these romantic heroes that harbor all these love feelings for years and on.

 

Even though P was "very very" hurt when you guys broke up, you were probably the last thing on his mind from that on.

 

And now he was down because of that girl and you were all nice and supportive and yet, available, that he made the pass. Now you have become more of a liability with the accident in Calgary probably, which must have added a lot of pressure. Good luck though.

 

Not sure how much you can love this guy P after all this time, but good thing that you guys are having a nice reencounter and see what it turns out from it. You never know.

[Chinook]

When you said you had gotten together with and ex, I was wondering if it was famous J.

 

Well, what I think is that guys are not these romantic heroes that harbor all these love feelings for years and on.

 

Even though P was "very very" hurt when you guys broke up, you were probably the last thing on his mind from that on.

 

And now he was down because of that girl and you were all nice and supportive and yet, available, that he made the pass. Now you have become more of a liability with the accident in Calgary probably, which must have added a lot of pressure. Good luck though.

 

Not sure how much you can love this guy P after all this time, but good thing that you guys are having a nice reencounter and see what it turns out from it. You never know.

Thanks, that had occurred to me too. Hence the feelings of being punished on occasion. Every dog has their day as they say. And as you say, you never know.

[Ariadne]

Thanks, that had occurred to me too. Hence the feelings of being punished on occasion. Every dog has their day as they say. And as you say, you never know.

 

Well, good luck.

 

You are the official gf now so he might get that through to the other girl.

[foxh1234]

Hi Chinook, I don't have any words of wisdom on this but I do wish you all the happiness in the world. Trust your gut and I hope things work out.

[Chinook]

Hi Chinook, I don't have any words of wisdom on this but I do wish you all the happiness in the world. Trust your gut and I hope things work out.

Hi Fox,

Thanks so much. I hope things work out too.

 

Just to update: I think this issue coming up this weekend was pretty good for us. We talked on Saturday and we established a few things. Nothing has changed with his training or with when he sees E. But what has changed is that it is clearer where WE are and we re-established the communication bond that we had. In fact it's seeming to get stronger day by day. One of us had an issue, we solved it together. He didn't like my 'solution' of set days to see each other because it puts restrictions on our relationship which he didn't want. But also what he did do was he made very clear the position we are in and where we are... E is simply not an issue for him... and I trust his word on this. From my point of view, if E isn't an issue, there's no need for a "solution"!! This weekend's issue looks good for us in that we solved something which was a problem. We communicated effectively and we established a closer bond. In our previous incarnation of the relationship, I would have taken charge and I would have solved it and expected him to comply. Now that has changed. As the cliche says... "there is no I in team" and we're a team now. I have to keep that in mind.

[Chinook]

Well, just for the record, in case anyone is still interested - he finally dumped me this evening. After around two months of serious issues arising like there being hardly any contact, no emails, very few texts, no phonecalls, no emotional intimacy, no sex, no care or compassion. Finally I asked what was going on and where we were going. I explained I felt we were just friends. He turned it around on me and said I was paranoid. I dunno, maybe he's right. I have no idea what a relationship is supposed to constitute these days.