Why are some men so adverse to their woman making her own money?

[Geishawhelk]

If we're talking about pragmatic goals, EVERYONE can attain them. The only ceiling that truly exists, is the one YOU put on yourself. The more "I can't do it" or "so and so won't let me do it", the more you're going to fail. I stand firmly on this.

 

TbF you know how fond I am of you, but I have to disagree with you here.

There are still many professions and careers where glass ceilings exist, and are implemented.

There are currently 4 gentlemen's clubs in the UK who steadfastly refuse to permit women to join, and because they are private, the Law can't touch them. But others, who were public organisations, (mainly sporting clubs) have only in the past 4 or 5 years, reluctantly admitted women. Even though women have been playing these same sports for far longer!

The same goes for some other professions. There are simply too many men at the top linking arms and preventing women from progressing beyond a certain point. And in many cases, the men at the top belong to a very peculiar club indeed.

They're called Masons.

And please believe me, I'm not being fanciful. Of all our politicians in Parliament, and Peers in the House of Lords, I would say 95% of them are Masons. Other professions, such as Law, Banking and medicine also have high-ranking officials who are members of this extraordinary and elite mysterious organisation.

So please trust me when I tell you, if they don't want to let a woman in, they won't.

[clv0116]

Now the career woman as illustrated above would make perfect sense if she said "I just want a man that loves me, his career is irrelevant! I do not care about money".. But career women do no think like that. That want a guy who does not need or want what they have to offer.

 

They do seem to want 'ambitious', 'driven', etc. while blithely disregarding the fact that the vast majority of men fitting that description will have an excellent career of their own and little use for a second income, particularly if there is no upside.

 

From this 'driven, successful' mans view they are offering him a saggy physique, constraints on his time and freedom, and in exchange ... there is no upside. The ONLY guys I hear who look for this type of women are those who can't support the lifestyle they desire on their own and are looking for someone split expenses with. A lot of those guys also can't get laid to save their lives.

[Trialbyfire]

TbF you know how fond I am of you, but I have to disagree with you here.

It's reciprocated! We don't have to agree on everything.

There are still many professions and careers where glass ceilings exist, and are implemented.

Sure, glass ceilings exist but a woman can either shatter them or find a way around them. Parts of my industry are very old school. They're not so old school that they're unwilling to allow a woman in, if you work within the same hand shake buddy system. If you can't shatter the glass ceiling or at minimum cut a hole into it, it's up to you to create your own opportunities by starting your own business.

[Geishawhelk]

Take a look at the second graph.

Don't tell me it's all down to ability and skill.

 

In fact, take a look at all the categories on the right.

It makes for interesting reading.....

[Trialbyfire]

Take a look at the second graph.

Don't tell me it's all down to ability and skill.

 

In fact, take a look at all the categories on the right.

It makes for interesting reading.....

There's no doubt we as women, have a ways to go, to get complete equality within the workplace. I took the route of just doing it, instead of saying I couldn't do it or the man is keeping me down. Instead of fighting the system, I worked within it. The old boys club let me in.

 

Btw, I'm in the financial sector, banking and investments.

[boxing123]

There are currently 4 gentlemen's clubs in the UK who steadfastly refuse to permit women to join, and because they are private, the Law can't touch them. But others, who were public organisations, (mainly sporting clubs) have only in the past 4 or 5 years, reluctantly admitted women. Even though women have been playing these same sports for far longer!

 

Why on Earth is this a problem for you? Am I trying to infiltrate women's clubs?

 

I am sure many married women have no problem with this. They would feel much better their husband is surrounded by men and having a good time, than being surrounded by younger/prettier women who solely want to join those clubs to steal someone's husband.

[Stockalone]

Sure they can when it comes to a good, fiscally responsible lifestyle.

 

Meaning that people can live within their budget and not getting in debt, yes.

 

 

Well, that's reliant on reasonable goals which is the point I made about getting a BA in flute playing and my reference to pragmatism v. idealism. The three careers you're talking about are idealistic careers.

 

I don't think the talented flutist can just say: "I'd better go to law school, business school or medical school because then I will earn more money."

 

I believe that people have talents and skills that are better suited for one career path but not for another. And not everyone is smart enough to achieve certain goals in the first place.

 

Not everyone who makes a good lawyer would have made a good doctor or the other way around. Not everything can be taught or accomplished by sheer will. Maybe that is where we disagree.

 

 

If we're talking about pragmatic goals, EVERYONE can attain them. The only ceiling that truly exists, is the one YOU put on yourself. The more "I can't do it" or "so and so won't let me do it", the more you're going to fail. I stand firmly on this.

 

Within their abilities. Some people have better god-given abilities (it can be intelligence, it can be athletic ability) than other people and no amount of work-ethic by the less fortunate can make up for that initital deficit.

[boxing123]

I do believe people control their own destiny.

 

However, what is more important to the world, and more fulfilling to yourself?

 

Doing an excellent job raising a child? Or being an office worker? Let's face it, only the top 5% of income earners make over 100k. Can everyone? Of course not.

 

So what is wrong with wanting to be an excellent mother/wife? Seems more important and rewarding to me than filling an office position. Maybe women should be objectively educated about the REALITY of both so they can make their own decision as to what they want. Many women cut themselves off from the opposite sex until it is too late.

[Trialbyfire]

I don't think the talented flutist can just say: "I'd better go to law school, business school or medical school because then I will earn more money."

Sure they can. I'm relatively artistic but chose a more pragmatic approach to living, using creativity to set me apart from the rest, within my financial career. My first choice for a relatively pragmatic career, was architecture. When I realized I didn't have what it took to do it, I switched gears to finance and economics.

 

I believe that people have talents and skills that are better suited for one career path but not for another. And not everyone is smart enough to achieve certain goals in the first place.

There are pragmatic and lucrative career paths for everyone. Just be realistic.

Not everyone who makes a good lawyer would have made a good doctor or the other way around. Not everything can be taught or accomplished by sheer will. Maybe that is where we disagree.

Agreed, to a degree. You have to know your strengths/weaknesses and work with them, but there are lucrative/pragmatic careers for every strength.

 

Within their abilities. Some people have better god-given abilities (it can be intelligence, it can be athletic ability) than other people and no amount of work-ethic by the less fortunate can make up for that initital deficit.

You'll find that most people are intelligent in some way. You'll also find that most people are lazy to a degree, have chosen the wrong career or haven't properly focused on what they want in life. They want it ALL RIGHT NOW. Life doesn't work that way. If you want it all, you have to willing to put your heart and soul into it, pushing aside personal pleasure and recreation, to a degree, to get it all for the future.

[Geishawhelk]

Why on Earth is this a problem for you? Am I trying to infiltrate women's clubs?

 

I am sure many married women have no problem with this. They would feel much better their husband is surrounded by men and having a good time, than being surrounded by younger/prettier women who solely want to join those clubs to steal someone's husband.

 

You're missing the point my little bambino. And as it's as plain as the nose on your face, I'm not going to point it out to you.

[serial muse]

I do believe people control their own destiny.

 

However, what is more important to the world, and more fulfilling to yourself?

 

Doing an excellent job raising a child? Or being an office worker? Let's face it, only the top 5% of income earners make over 100k. Can everyone? Of course not.

 

So what is wrong with wanting to be an excellent mother/wife? Seems more important and rewarding to me than filling an office position. Maybe women should be objectively educated about the REALITY of both so they can make their own decision as to what they want. Many women cut themselves off from the opposite sex until it is too late.

 

What's frustrating about this and your earlier post is that you've been creating an artificial ranking on women's choices. Nobody is saying that there's anything wrong with being a mother/wife. But you started this brouhaha by devaluing professional careers for women, and by saying that being an excellent mother/wife is "better."

 

So, own it. Don't put words in peoples' mouths. I disagree with you, but at least your first paragraph is honest, in that it describes your PERSONAL beliefs. The second, not so much. It's false to pretend that when women are defending their own choices, they're somehow devaluing others'. You are the one who is doing the devaluing here of peoples' choices, and it's intellectually dishonest to pretend otherwise. Stop it.

[boxing123]

Well, this is obvious but...

 

The most important thing a woman, and only a woman can do, is to be an excellent mother. Anyone can do your office/teaching/legal/accounting job.

 

As long as having a career does not interfere 1 bit with having and raising a child, then go for it. If you pass over procreation because you are in love with money, I feel sorry for you.

[Trialbyfire]

Attitude sincerely defines whether a man or a woman will make it or break it in life!

[norajane]

Woggle, I answered on page 1:

 

Because they want a mommy at home taking care of them.

 

But boxing123, who started the thread you referred to, answers your question quite clearly in that thread:

 

A man has no use for a woman whom is not serving him. That's the problem.

[serial muse]

Well, this is obvious but...

 

The most important thing a woman, and only a woman can do, is to be an excellent mother. Anyone can do your office/teaching/legal/accounting job.

 

As long as having a career does not interfere 1 bit with having and raising a child, then go for it. If you pass over procreation because you are in love with money, I feel sorry for you.

 

Again, your assumptions are showing. In this particular post, you make the assumption that the only reason one (man OR woman?) would pursue a career is for money. I feel sorry for you, if the only value you see in a professional career is financial.

 

But you know, this argument feels oddly familiar. Perhaps we've had it when you were under a different name?

[Stockalone]

Sure they can. I'm relatively artistic but chose a more pragmatic approach to living, using creativity to set me apart from the rest, within my financial career. My first choice for a relatively pragmatic career, was architecture. When I realized I didn't have what it took to do it, I switched gears to finance and economics.

 

As long as you don't mind working in that field, there is no problem. What I mean is that I have no artistic talent. I never cared much about music and had no interest in learning an instrument.

 

I couldn't have become a musician, even if that would have been the most lucrative job in the world. I wouldn't have had the skills nor the will to become one.

 

 

There are pragmatic and lucrative career paths for everyone. Just be realistic.

Agreed, to a degree. You have to know your strengths/weaknesses and work with them, but there are lucrative/pragmatic careers for every strength.

 

I can think of jobs here, where the salary is a given, agreed upon by unions and the companies. There is little room for a lucrative career in that field.

 

A factory worker ears a certain amount of money and that is it. Depending on what industry they work in, they make good money or just enough to pay the bills (the neccessary ones, nothing fancy). There aren't even enough jobs for all of them. Some are unemployed despite having the neccessary skills.

 

 

You'll find that most people are intelligent in some way. You'll also find that most people are lazy to a degree, have chosen the wrong career or haven't properly focused on what they want in life. They want it ALL RIGHT NOW. Life doesn't work that way. If you want it all, you have to willing to put your heart and soul into it, pushing aside personal pleasure and recreation, to a degree, to get it all for the future.

 

I don't buy the everything is possible for everyone. I have played soccer in my youth with guys who now work for a car manufacturer who is a huge employer in the region. Some of them are varnishers, lab technicians, solid jobs. None of them is stupid, but they could have never made it to college.

 

That said, that also has to do with our school system. There are three types of schools after 4th grade and only one of them is your ticket to college.

 

They work, make enough money to get along (but not more than that) and some raise a family, albeit on two incomes. It also depends on what you need from life and where you come from. Background and family are a huge influence on that, especially in defining what "ALL" means to us, what and why we want something.

[Stockalone]

I agree in that if you have no rhythm, you aren't going to be a musician, for example. If you're a 5'2" 100 lb. dude, you'd better not set your sights on the NFL.

 

HOWEVER, I'm betting ANY of these guys you talk about above COULD have made it to college, but not because they didn't have the ability. They probably just didn't have the will.

 

Our education system is a bit complicated as it varies from state to state and is not really fair either. Secondary education (after the 4th grade) is divided into different types of schools. Which means, after 4 years together at age 10 or 11, you will go to another school, based on your abilities.

 

Depending on which type of school you go to, you will either spend 5, 6, or 9 years at that school before you graduate.

 

I went to one of the schools whose purpose is basically to prepare kids for university studies. And you can only go to college if you have a diploma from that type of schools.

 

There are other schools (where those guys went) where you are prepared for jobs that are based in manual or practical activities, non-academical. Classes, requirements and the way and extent in which topics are taught are very different. And they spent four years less in school than I did. When they finish school, they can't go to college. They would need to change schools, catch up on crucial aspects that weren't part of their previous curriculum (which includes learning a second foreign language), etc. and still having to deal with the regular workload.

[Trialbyfire]

Stock, everyone can make it to college, as long as they're within a reasonable intelligence quota and not mentally challenged (no sarcasm intended). This is where pragmatism and understanding your strengths and weaknesses comes into play.

 

If a talented flutist pursues a career of flute playing, hoping they're going to make it big like Kenny G, that's an idealistic career. Not many people aren't talented in more than one way. It doesn't mean everyone has to be at the top of their game, to be reasonably successful within their lives.

 

Let's pretend the highest salary you can possibly make is $40K per annum. What stopping you from supplementing that income with a second job if the one you're in has topped out? So you end up making $60K and working 75 hours a week for years. How different is this with the career person that makes $60K, working 60 - 80 hours to establish themselves? The next question to address is why anyone would stay in a $40K per annum job if they can self-improve with some night courses. No one forces anyone to stay in a dead-end job.

 

Oh, you have a family to support. Why did you have that family on $40K/annum? Because it was YOUR choice in life to do so.

 

Each person makes choices in their lives. Just try to make wise choices for long-term happiness. If you're happy in a $40K/annum job, then that's great and I mean it sincerely. Just own it.

[Geishawhelk]

Again, your assumptions are showing. In this particular post, you make the assumption that the only reason one (man OR woman?) would pursue a career is for money. I feel sorry for you, if the only value you see in a professional career is financial.

 

But you know, this argument feels oddly familiar. Perhaps we've had it when you were under a different name?

 

Don't be too hard on him.

He's only a kid.

He has got sooooo much learning to do.

 

The thing is, virtually every female on this forum (bar the ones who have neither seen this thread, or responded) all disagree with him, and think he's somewhat puerile in his views.

 

And there's quite a representative cross-section of female society here.

 

But for some obscure reason, he actually believes that eventually, he will find a woman who perfectly fits his required profile. The little stay-at-home wife who will raise the kids and fit the 50's advertising image of elegance and style whilst her head is in the oven cooking the pot roast.....

What he doesn't realise is that no such woman exists. Either here, or in actual society.

Unless he shops for one on the internet.....

[MindoverMatter]

Donna: It happens in a world outside your borders, in a country called Germany.

So, what most community colleges would or would not do, doesn't really apply here.

[sally4sara]

Therefore I will pair up with a traditional woman who values herself for who she is

 

What IS she? Not being coy, I just want to hear what YOU think she is.

 

and realizes that homemaker is not a dirty word. It has nothing to do with personal comfort and everything to do with being responsible and caring for my future family.

 

I don't want a girl who's not into that and fortunately I have found several sweet young things

 

What things?

 

who are like minded. I don't see where all the angst is coming from, if some OTHER women want to be school bus drivers

 

Just wondering why school bus drivers is the first thing you think of....thats sort of random.

 

or whatever then fine for me I respect your life choices, how about you do the same for me?

[birdie]

If you are interested in this topic, you should read the following thread. It is called house husbands.

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showthread.php?t=166402

 

of course some women will disagree with the idea. the only thing that would annoy me is if the man went out spending the money on some rubbish. the way a lot of housewives go out shopping. I don't do it, I earn the cash, I would expect him to respect it and look after it. but then I would only marry someone who has the same values as me obviously.

 

if the father took the burden of looking after kids off me, I would be immencely grateful since I don't have the patience nor stamina for it.

[sally4sara]

It has nothing to do with personal comfort and everything to do with being responsible and caring for my future family.

 

I'm sorry.

 

I just cannot get over how absolutely pompous this sounds. I had to quote it again it is THAT entitled sounding; like the mindset of a spoiled child.

 

Why would anyone want to give up their personal comfort for HIS future family?

[birdie]

Again, these friends - did they slough off and screw around in school? These are all personal choices people make, not a foregone conclusion from birth. It's called "making your bed and lying in it."

 

those guys are right Donna, education systems are different. it is often pre-determined from the age of 14 or less whether you can go to university or not because you have to pick the right kind of secondary school.

[MindoverMatter]

Again, these friends - did they slough off and screw around in school? These are all personal choices people make, not a foregone conclusion from birth. It's called "making your bed and lying in it."

 

The "sorting" happens when pupils are around 10 years old, by a group of teachers who evaluate your achievements so far, your potential and your general chances to "make it" in the different schools. It's not really about screwing around. It's about your talents and personal dispostion.