WalkOnWater Posted January 15, 2009 Posted January 15, 2009 I posted a thread last week asking OW for advice on handling my, .... well, still not sure what to call her, how about STBGF, I hope , ...... my STBGF's reaction to my separation, http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t175678, and got lots of very good input, helped me relax a bit. I've recently realized a change happening in the R dynamics, and I wanted to share this w/ OW on this forum who wonder how MM think, especially separated MM. I was unhappy in M for several years, but the unhappiness had crept in so slowly that I grew accustomed to it and didn't recognize it. Now that I'm living alone, I'm so much happier, and the contrast enables me to see how unhappy I was living w/ my W. When I met OW, she provided much happiness. I had been trying to find happiness on my own in the context of my unhappy M, but the happiness I experienced with OW far exceeded that. I saw that I had deep need for emotional intimacy that had been lacking in M for a long time. As I got to know her more, I desperately wanted a R to work out w/ her b/c if it didn't, I felt I'd be left w/ unhappiness. In short, I became dependent on OW for happiness. Now that I'm living alone and much happier, I'm not dependent on her for happiness. I'm not desperate for a R to work out w/ her. If it does, great, but if not, I'll still be happy. I used to call/text/email her almost daily and pour out a lot of emotions. If circumstances created a several day gap in our communication, I'd worry about losing her. In hindsight, this probably overwhelmed her at times. Now, I can go days w/o contacting her, and I'm ok. This change has only recently occurred, and I hope she doesn't construe it as I'm losing interest in her. I haven't described this change to her yet. So, my point is, for OW who see a change in their MM after they separate, they may be going through something similar to what I'm going through. It's not that we're losing interest, it's just that we see things from a different perspective now that we're living alone. For those following my story, STBGF called yesterday from the airport, leaving a draining conference and heading for 3 more days of business before returning home this weekend. She sounded really tired, more tired than I've ever heard her before. I would've liked to discuss R issues but decided not to b/c she was so tired. So we just chatted about odds 'n ends, and it was nice to connect w/ her. Hadn't heard her voice in about 2 wks. BTW wildsoul, I got the book you recommended in the mail yesterday, How to Survive Your Boyfriend's Divorce. Read the first 2 chapters, looks very good, thx for the rec. So far, it seems to be geared towards women who meet men AFTER they've separated from their W's. I hope the book will mention something about R's that start PRIOR to separation. One part of the book that caught my eye was a diff between a single, never-been-married guy, and a recently separated guy -- the single guy has emotional walls in place whereas the separated guy does not and is very open w/ his emotions. Women generally like the openness, but the author says the walls are good. I didn't fully understand that, but what she said about separated guys is true about me, I'm very emotionally open w/ STBGF. That's what I really like about her, that I can be so open. Why is that not good?
wildsoul Posted January 15, 2009 Posted January 15, 2009 BTW wildsoul, I got the book you recommended in the mail yesterday, How to Survive Your Boyfriend's Divorce. Read the first 2 chapters, looks very good, thx for the rec. So far, it seems to be geared towards women who meet men AFTER they've separated from their W's. I hope the book will mention something about R's that start PRIOR to separation. One part of the book that caught my eye was a diff between a single, never-been-married guy, and a recently separated guy -- the single guy has emotional walls in place whereas the separated guy does not and is very open w/ his emotions. Women generally like the openness, but the author says the walls are good. I didn't fully understand that, but what she said about separated guys is true about me, I'm very emotionally open w/ STBGF. That's what I really like about her, that I can be so open. Why is that not good? As far as I know, this is the only book on dating a separated person. If you want a book on creating a marriage that started as an affair, then you're going to have to write it! All the affair books I've read mostly tell you how to get out of the painful mess, as so few people actually make it. I too was trying to figure out what the author meant by the boundaries being "better." She's spot-on about dating someone who's been married before being able to slip into R-gear more easily. But I don't recall that she was saying emotional walls are good. I think what she was talking about was more related to the timing (better to not go so fast) especially as part of the MM's motivation might be to secure his next step, more than being about his love for OW as a person. I've never dated a M or recently S'd man before, but it's true that mine was professing love very early (within a month) and talking about marrying me not long after (and ever since.) Personally, I found that there are so many things I dearly loved about being married, and I missed it after I was single again. The sweetness, comfort, and domestic stability are soul food to me. In my early 40's, I want a man that enjoys all that too. So if he's never been married, that's not a good sign to me. When reading that part of her book, I also took it with a grain of salt, thinking that it might apply more to people in their 20's and early 30's. The main thing in that book I relate to is the concept of "divorce time." It's really freaking hard to have the R all green-lights, as far as love and connection go, but then the D process is all yellow and red lights. If my SM was single, I know that he'd have proposed by now (we met 1 year today) and we'd be setting a date. That's where we're at as a couple. But we're not on single person time. And it's so hard to know whether it's worth waiting, or if my guy might never actually end his M. It's a big risk for a woman who's otherwise very datable, but hoping it will work out with the one she's already in love with. The timing is set by his marital circumstances and his way of dealing with that (or not.) An OW's only power is to stay or go.
OWoman Posted January 15, 2009 Posted January 15, 2009 Now that I'm living alone and much happier, I'm not dependent on her for happiness. This is such good news, WoW!! One of the reasons I was keen for my MM to have some time alone before we lived together was exactly that - I didn't want him to associate his happiness with me in a dependent way, I wanted him to experience it as something he himself could provide, so that he wanted me without needing me in some clingy parasitic way. I knew that once the unhappiness of the M was behind him, his serotonin levels would stabilise and his happiness would return, and I could share that with him rather than having to provide it for him. I'm sure your s2bGF will be delighted with this progress, too! Enjoy - it really does sound that things are going well for you!
Mino Posted January 16, 2009 Posted January 16, 2009 Thank you wow, for your post. My guy is also a sm, and the road has not been easy. I see many changes in him, becoming also more indepedant, wanting to do many chores himself...for instance. Many things have shifted in our R, not allways to my liking, but overall we are moving forward very slowly. Thank you again, I really appriciated your post:), Hi ws, you are right about the Divorce time, thanks for the reminder... I wanted a normal life yesterday, no wait, almost 5 years ago.... lol.. but we have come a long way, and its baby step all the way...
Author WalkOnWater Posted January 16, 2009 Author Posted January 16, 2009 Wildsoul, happy anniversary! stbGF and I met about 10 months ago, so you and I have similar timeframes. We should keep in touch, might be able to help each other understand things, but it sounds like you're farther along in a R than we are. I'm not ready to jump into another M right away. If stbGF wanted it, I suppose I'd consider it, but I'd rather take it easy and see how things go. She's never been married, so nothing to miss, as you do. And as for writing the book, .... wanna co-author it? :) Regarding "the wall," the author writes, "But here's a question to ask yourself: Did you ever stop to think that the wall might be appropriate?" So, you're right, she didn't say walls are good, just that they might be appropriate. And I think you're right about timing. In re-reading the section, I think she means the wall is appropriate because it slows things down. Without it (i.e., w/ a SM), R can develop too quickly, and the woman can get in over her head before she realizes the pitfalls that can be associated with a SM. That may also explain why A's between MM and OW can catch fire so fast -- emotional walls come down very quickly. Anyways, thx again for the book, it's helping me understand my own self, and I'm sure will help me be more understanding of stbGF's feelings. OWoman, thx for the encouraging words. And same to you, LavendarGirl, if you're reading this thread. I forgot to thank you on my other thread for rooting for me. It's amazing how people you don't even know can make you feel good with supporting words. Mino, is that really true, you've been dating your SM for 5 years?!? You must have a lot of patience!!! Hang in there. I'm rooting for you too!!
LavendarGirl Posted January 16, 2009 Posted January 16, 2009 Hey Wow, I'm still rooting for you, just got buried under work, and haven't had chance to post on your thread!
LavendarGirl Posted January 17, 2009 Posted January 17, 2009 Hi Wow...I think you are on a good road for yourself here in recognizing where you were emotionally in the tail end of your marriage, and your expectations that you have/had of your stbGF. You said in your other thread that you are willing to take your chances with your stbGF, so continue to heal yourself and give your stbGF time to either "come around" or not. You don't want to smother her, but rather let her know that the door (and the heart) is open should she choose it. I have not read the book that Wildsoul recommended, but I would imagine that the reason why it is better to have the boundaries or emotional walls in place in the beginning of a relationship is because a relationship should grow on its own accord. Trust, intimacy, and open-ness is earned, and not presumed. And when someone new fails you in the early stages of a relationship, it is much easier to heal and move on if those walls were in place, rather than if you were completely open and vulnerable. It is healthy for you to redefine yourself at this stage, and it sounds like you are well on your way to doing so. Again, give your stbGF some time and space, and you will be able to determine her intentions soon enough. Again, I'm rooting for you! I think you have enough level headedness, patience, and self-awareness that you can come out ahead on this, either way. Good luck to you! --LG.
Mino Posted January 17, 2009 Posted January 17, 2009 Of coarse emotional walls are healthly, they protect you....BUT problem in a A is that after you DO fall in love, where you thought you had walls up, and time has gone on and you have given OP your trust, planning starts on a future together, then the dissapointments come, because now we have delays...(mm excuses) emotional walls have been torn town, and then the real pain sets in...thats why A suck:o You need a lot of patience, and nerves of a chinesse warrior! lol
Mino Posted January 17, 2009 Posted January 17, 2009 Dont fool yourself.... you think you have your heart under control, the longer you stay involved the more you get sucked in.. believe me, I am strong as acid, but this brought me down to knees... I never would have imagined...If I had to do it over again, I would have never gone down this road..
frannie Posted January 18, 2009 Posted January 18, 2009 ... A suck:o You need a lot of patience, and nerves of a chinesse warrior! ... I am strong as acid, but this brought me down to knees... I never would have imagined...If I had to do it over again, I would have never gone down this road... Well said, Mino. WoW... the immense amount of pain and pressure and hurt and other negative emotions (guilt, etc.) that OW can go through during an affair and especially when the MM might be close to leaving and the W knows, or there is the push-pull between the two women can be crippling. And that can affect the relationship between previous APs going forward, in addition to those things you talked about in your OP. Its a wonder these relationships survive at all, no matter what the feelings between the individuals are.
Author WalkOnWater Posted January 19, 2009 Author Posted January 19, 2009 Thanks LavendarGirl, your words "you will be able to determine her intentions soon enough" are truer than you probably imagined. When she got back from her 2 week busy period, she told me for business reasons, she's decided to move out of the country! She did mention last fall that she was entertaining thoughts of moving, but I had no idea she would reach a decision w/o at least telling me she was close to deciding. I was a little hurt that she didn't want to know how I felt about it before announcing the fact. She has told me her career is the most important thing in her life right now and it has been the cause of break-ups in the past for her. I'm ok w/ her career being more important than a R, but I was mistaken in thinking I was important enough to let me in on her plans as they developed. When I reacted in a hurt manner, she got a little angry w/ me saying I was just like all the other guys she's dated who've wanted her to put them first over her career. I don't want her to do that for me, but I do want to feel that I have some importance in her life. She sounded pretty firm, like she's made up her mind that I'm just like all the other guys and this R will turn out the same way. She also said getting into a rebound R would be a disastrous choice for her. I agreed w/ her that it's high-risk. I still want things to work b/c we've had some good times together and the potential is there, and I'm willing to do a lot of work to make it happen. But if she really does have her mind made up, I don't want to beg. Maybe I should've asked you first how to respond, but in her email from last night where she vented at me and likened me to past R's that have failed, I responded that it sounded like she's already written me off and wants to move on. If that's the case, I told her, then I don't want to part on bad terms. I'd rather split with good memories and wishing each other well. Maybe I shouldn't have said that. I don't want to sound like I'm ready to give up without trying. But I also don't want to be a doormat. Maybe she's trying to tell me something else. I do have a problem sometimes of not reading between the lines and taking everything too literally. Mars/Venus problem, y'know? Anyways, what it feels like right now to me is, she'll be my xOW, not my stbGF. If that happens though, I'll keep my chin up and be ok, .... I think. Mino, thanks for the input. I'm the same way, if I had to do it again, no way!! It's extremely complicated and the emotions are all over the map. Frannie, you're right, it IS a wonder these R's survive. You have to have been in one to really appreciate that!
Myusername Posted January 19, 2009 Posted January 19, 2009 WalkOn I am sorry about your stbgf. You sound like a nice and caring man, and that you want the best for her. Not that this makes it better but perhaps this is a good, strong sign that it was not meant to be. As other people have said, it is a wonder these relationships work out at all. I imagine you are hurt and the fact that she did not tell you before hand, about the move, is hard. I wish you the best of luck... Myusername
LavendarGirl Posted January 20, 2009 Posted January 20, 2009 Hi Wow, I am so sorry to hear about her decision to move out of the country and also that she cut you out of the loop in her decision-making process. My MM also took a new overseas assignment for the next three years, it's really a kicker for me. You are a good man with a great heart. Keep working at this new life of yours, I bet you will come out on top. And I'm rooting for you still, just the situation has changed, hasn't it! Rooting for you, now, that you have a happy and fulfilling life in general. And hey MUN! I haven't see you around, girl! How are you?
Author WalkOnWater Posted January 20, 2009 Author Posted January 20, 2009 Myusername, thanks for the nice words. I do care for her. It's a fine line between wanting things to work out for us b/c of my feelings for her (me-centered) and wanting what's best for her b/c I care about her (her-centered). Ultimately, what's best for her is more important, ... I just hope she'll eventually decide what's best for her is for us to work out!! LavendarGirl, yes it IS a kicker, but following your story and your MM's move overseas gives me hope. Soon after she told me the news, I thought about you and figured, well if LG can do it, maybe I can too!! Got another email from her today saying she over-reacted a bit yesterday. She was very stressed from her 2wk trip, and in fact has Dr's orders for bed-rest for a while until she recovers. These things have quite a bit of ups and downs, don't they? I hope I'm not in store for what YOU'VE been through. I don't think I could last that long!
LavendarGirl Posted January 20, 2009 Posted January 20, 2009 Hi Wow, Did she give you any leeway here, just in terms of this relationship working out long distance? It sounds from your previous post regarding the talk you recently had over her overseas move that she was pretty cold. Not sure that I should be your motivation. My MM's decision to take the overseas orders and tell me after the fact was probably the nail in the coffin, I am afraid. I haven't posted on the boards, but I've been thinking of late that my relationship with my MM is doomed to forever be a LD OW, and I'm just not in the mood for that.
jj33 Posted January 20, 2009 Posted January 20, 2009 Lav sorry to hear your news but better to accept and start to move on. WOW sorry to hear your news as well. You are doing so well. One thing is that what is in store for you with OW is up to you. I would strongly encourage you NOT to think of a LDR with her. She has made her point clear. I dont think you did the wrong thing at all. Of course you dont want to be a doormat and of course you would LOVE to chase after her and be the romantic hero who says stay please I love you and go off in the sunset together... But actions speak louder than her words and hers are irrefutable. She made the choice to move abroad without once consulting you. That is not only not how love works but also relatively abnormal. How could you not discuss that with someone you were close to even if they didnt figure in your plans? Maybe thats just me. But she sounds like she has real intimacy issues. And you are (i hate it when people tell me this sorry) dodging a bullet. Perhaps she has played her role in your life. She has reopened your heart and motivated you to leave your marriage. And there is someone even better for you to walk off into the sunset with. I know it wont feel that way today. But one day it will. Hang in there.
TOWinNYC Posted January 20, 2009 Posted January 20, 2009 Perhaps she has played her role in your life. She has reopened your heart and motivated you to leave your marriage. And there is someone even better for you to walk off into the sunset with. I know it wont feel that way today. But one day it will. Wow jj33 - that was said beautifully. This is what I like seeing on this board!!!
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