middleman Posted January 12, 2009 Posted January 12, 2009 1. I know it is wrong and feel bad about it...not that it makes it right. 2. I did not find out she was cheating on me, nor did I expect to. 3. Despite being remorseful, I have to admit (and have to her) that I have looked once before, and THAT time I did find out she had been cheating on me and lying to me for a span of months when we first started dating. 4. I am asking this question because despite feeling like I should just break it off, I love her and I'm having real trouble with that notion. A little background, and I'll try to be as short as possible: I am a mid-30's guy dating a late-20's girl. Been dating for the better part of 2 years. I did break up with her early on, for the cheating / lying mentioned above, but got back together soon after to give it another try. I also broke up with her early last year after months of hostile fighting and verbal / physical attacks from her. We had another fight, she screamed at me, insulted me, packed my bags and told me to get out for (about the 10th time such a thing had happened). We were 'officially' apart for about 5-6 months, even though we spent much time together during this period. She feels as if I abandoned her when I broke up with her, and she has often said (normally that she thinks I was irresponsible with her emotions for spending so much time with her when were apart. I totally dispute the former, but think the latter is at least somewhat fair, despite the fact that she constantly called, showed up at my work, begged me to come over despite our 'broken-up' status, and the general fact that she went crazy and I worried about her... Anyway..since we got back together, we have tried therapy and I have tried to do everything I can to really try to make things work. All the things she has said in therapy about me not verbalizing 'I love you' enough, etc. I have done as much as I can in an attempt to make her feel loved. And she has even said as much. But she also said a few months ago that there is a lot of resentment towards me. She continues to take little episodes like having a bad connection on a phone and express disgust as if it my fault, saying things like 'let's just talk later' and hanging up... We were going to plan a trip this March after work had slowed up for a bit, but after a recent fight she went ahead and made plans to do the same trip with a female friend of hers, saying 'I know you're going to be upset, but I've decided to go with ____ instead...I just think we both know things are going bad for us right now and don't look like they're going to be better by then'. This was recently, and she really hasn't said much about it since. But after a night out with her friends where I kind of got quiet and upset because there was much talk about the planning of the trip, and a fight in the cab ride home (she was drunk and doesn't even remember the nasty tone she took with me that started it), I made the fatal mistake of looking at her most recent conversation with the friend she is travelling with on gmail (she had left it logged in) because her tone toward me for months now and the trip switch and the lack of interest she has in dealing with any issues I have despite being totally dependent on me coming over and spending time with her. Anyway, here are some of the highlights, paraphrased: >She told her friend that she had told me about her plans to change the trip and that I was 'heartbroken'. Her friend asked if she wanted to invite me along, and she said 'no...it would just kind of make everything uncomfortable and wouldn't be as fun'. > She told her we hadn't had sex in weeks and she wasn't even attracted to me anymore...which was a shame, because that was 'the only thing we had really'. > Her friend told reminded her that she didn't enjoy having sex with her last boyfriend for a long while. She replied: 'but he (the ex) had so other good qualities, while he (me) doesn't really...'. Consequently, she has been spending time with the ex again because he helped her through the time when I broke up with her. > Her friend said she should not let this linger for too long if that's how she feels, to which she kind of just said 'yeah..I know'. > They talked about how I had been trying so hard to make things better, but whenever I do, she just gets 'bored'. Anyway...there were a few other things...but in the end, she still says she loves me and even mentioned me going on a different trip with her in a month or so. This was from about 4 days ago before I was to take her away for the past weekend. Almost cancelled, but ended up going. She seemed to have a good time and we had good sex again for the first time in a while. She was very affectionate and loving... So anyway...I know the general response here will be 'break it off'. And I've thought about it since reading that. But I just know that she will get very emotional and start blaming me for 'not even trying' and 'abandoning her'. Ironically, her favorite response when I tell that I love her and ask "why do you think I'm with you?' is 'You're just complacent and you don't feel like making a change'. So if I do break this off, I just know she is going to say so many things like this and I am going to have a hard time not shouting out what I saw in her e-mail... I know this all sounds screwed, but I really do love her, I just feel like a doormat right now... I so much want to confront her about what she said in her gmail conversation...but I feel terrible about how I came across that info. What does everyone think?
d0ll Posted January 12, 2009 Posted January 12, 2009 why even waste your time in such a complicated 'relationship' ? when you can have someone that wont cheat on you & talk **** to her friends about you.
Ronni_W Posted January 12, 2009 Posted January 12, 2009 I know this all sounds screwed, but I really do love her, When you say that you really do love her, what exactly do you mean? That is, what are the thoughts and feelings that are inspiring your love? In this relationship, what is it that makes you feel good about yourself and happy to be alive? How does it nourish and energize you? How does it support and encourage you?
Author middleman Posted January 13, 2009 Author Posted January 13, 2009 why even waste your time in such a complicated 'relationship' ? when you can have someone that wont cheat on you & talk **** to her friends about you. I know...it's a stupid little thing called love and it really does complicate things. But I agree with your point. There are some things that I have done wrong in this relationship as well, for sure, but cheating and that level of degrading talk have not been part of it. I have tried to be relatively mature about it, but I have to ask this: When I found out she was cheating and had reason to suspect she was, I didn't really have a problem admitting to her and to myself that I had looked at her e-mail. I feel bad about this time, because I didn't really suspect her of cheating, but I did want to know what was going through her head during a time when she has been pulling away mentally but still telling me she loves me and wants me come over all the time. Unfortunately, what I found was almost as bad as if she had been cheating. I feel like I'm going to burst trying to keep this inside while she tells me she loves me now. There is no excuse for invasion of privacy, but it happens and is somewhat justified based on things like cheating, etc. Does this compare? If I were to come forward with this, I almost feel somewhat justified despite hating myself for snooping. What does everyone else think?
Author middleman Posted January 13, 2009 Author Posted January 13, 2009 When you say that you really do love her, what exactly do you mean? That is, what are the thoughts and feelings that are inspiring your love? In this relationship, what is it that makes you feel good about yourself and happy to be alive? How does it nourish and energize you? How does it support and encourage you? That's a totally fair question. It is tough to post a fair description of a relationship in a single post on a message board. There are so many things she does and so many ways we connect that are not expressed above because this post is about the problems in a relationship. She has an energy and drive that I really admire. She can be as sweet as a guy could ask for a good amount of the time. And I've never had more fun with a girl and felt more comfortable laying on the couch doing nothing with a girl. But when we don't get along or she gets angry, I don't think I've ever been so mistreated by anyone. She's insecure and yet totally self-absorbed at the same time. I don't like that side of her...never have. But it doesn't make forget about the good side and great that side can be. I guess after reading what I read, I don't really feel like we should be together, but I can't just walk away without addressing why, whether I like it or not (i don't she just wouldn't let it go without a true reason instead of 'it's not working'...she has been devastated each of the first two times..to the point of being dangerous to herself). And i just don't think I can keep what I saw inside if she starts telling me how much I've 'abandoned her', don't 'care about her', etc. It's all eating me up inside.
BubblyPopcorn Posted January 13, 2009 Posted January 13, 2009 Apples to oranges, you invaded her privacy, she cheated, relationship over. Both are a lack of mistrust, hers obviously worse, at least IMO. I invaded my ex's privacy, after I received a phone call from a woman who called for him while he was at work, I didn't think anything of it at first and when my ex called later that night I told him some woman named so and so called and I asked who she was/how he knew her and he acted very strangely after I asked. I eventually called the number back myself and she eventually spilled the beans. Not really an invasion of trust from my behavior but something just wasn't adding up and I probably would have looked into it further regardless, but the other "woman" just made it easier for me.
Author middleman Posted January 13, 2009 Author Posted January 13, 2009 Apples to oranges, you invaded her privacy, she cheated, relationship over. Both are a lack of mistrust, hers obviously worse, at least IMO. I invaded my ex's privacy, after I received a phone call from a woman who called for him while he was at work, I didn't think anything of it at first and when my ex called later that night I told him some woman named so and so called and I asked who she was/how he knew her and he acted very strangely after I asked. I eventually called the number back myself and she eventually spilled the beans. Not really an invasion of trust from my behavior but something just wasn't adding up and I probably would have looked into it further regardless, but the other "woman" just made it easier for me. Well, I know my post is pretty long winded...but the cheating was from long ago and not really the problem now. This time I found the things she said about to a friend listed above (arrowed). But I understand your point. But since we're comparing: how would you say that my invading her privacy compares to the things she said (arrowed) above? Also, she has invaded my privacy (e-mail, myspace, etc.) on at least 3 occasions in the past, but there was nothing to find... Sorry...now I'm just getting angry thinking about it.
BubblyPopcorn Posted January 13, 2009 Posted January 13, 2009 Well, I know my post is pretty long winded...but the cheating was from long ago and not really the problem now. This time I found the things she said about to a friend listed above (arrowed). But I understand your point. But since we're comparing: how would you say that my invading her privacy compares to the things she said (arrowed) above? Also, she has invaded my privacy (e-mail, myspace, etc.) on at least 3 occasions in the past, but there was nothing to find... Sorry...now I'm just getting angry thinking about it. It doesn't matter at this point, like I said, you're comparing apples to oranges. I can't compare because I'm not in your situation. I was several years ago and when I was IN that situation, I had to think long and hard about whether or not I could stay in the relationship and we tried to work through it initially but I eventually realized, that I just couldn't. I had zero trust in him after that and I just couldn't get it back.
malibustacydoll Posted January 13, 2009 Posted January 13, 2009 It may just be an angry moment that she said those things to her friend in. My boyfriend and I have been having issues lately and I talk to my friends online personally about some of the stuff and I would die if he read it. Sometimes we say too much but just want to throw it off the other person. She may just be confused. I would be concerned though that she has cheated before and is hanging out with her ex. Personally I would confront her about it...
Cherry Blossom 35 Posted January 13, 2009 Posted January 13, 2009 I think it's a good thing you looked at the email. You found out how she really feels....and it isn't good. In your own words, she is angry, insecure, and self absorbed. She cheated on you, she has anger management issues (BIG ones), abandonment issues, and she is manipulative. She becomes dangerous to herself when you you tell her you need some time away? That is bad, bad, bad. She needs therapy, not a relationship. At this point, you need to be seriously examining why you are staying with a woman who treats you so poorly. None of this is healthy. The good parts do not make up for the seriously difficult issues this woman brings to the relationship.
Ronni_W Posted January 13, 2009 Posted January 13, 2009 Well, it sounds as if you do have lots of good stuff going, too...and that sure is a good thing . Is she willing to take an anger management course? Are you willing to take an assertiveness training course? Are you both willing to learn some better communication skills? How to kindly and calmly express your individual wants, needs, preferences and dislikes? How to compromise? Conflict resolution skills? Also could check the questionnaires and articles at marriagebuilders.com. A couple of books by Gay Hendricks may make for interesting reading: 'Conscious Loving' and 'The Conscious Heart'. It honestly does sound like the couples' therapy you undertook was too effective. Maybe try a new therapist whose approach/style more closely matches what your relationship requires from a counselor. Lastly, if you really do want to end the relationship, you're gonna have to find your 'nads and just do it. An individual therapist will help you increase your self-confidence, learn how to stand up for your own needs and wants, etc. (That is such wimpy BS about "she won't let me walk away if/when/how I want." Stop that. You are not a helpless victim of this situation unless YOU act like it.) Hugs and good luck.
Author middleman Posted January 13, 2009 Author Posted January 13, 2009 Lastly, if you really do want to end the relationship, you're gonna have to find your 'nads and just do it. An individual therapist will help you increase your self-confidence, learn how to stand up for your own needs and wants, etc. (That is such wimpy BS about "she won't let me walk away if/when/how I want." Stop that. You are not a helpless victim of this situation unless YOU act like it.) I don't really have an issue with the act of breaking up with her...I've done it twice before. Just not sure I want to, I guess. I know I have some self-confidence issues, but honestly, with her, I've improved. You have to start putting your foot down when you date someone who is very 'demonstrative' and I have put my foot down plenty of times. As far as her 'not letting me' break up with her...I wasn't actually saying she won't let me 'break up' with her so I can't, it was more along the lines that if I do decide to break up with her, she won't let me do it easily, despite all the perceived negative about that she expressed in the e-mails I saw. The way she's been acting since, I'm starting to think that her statements to her friend were somewhat intentionally 'tough' or 'harsh' because this is the friend of hers that counseled her through when I broke up with her last year, and maybe she feels a little awkward around this girl (they had just met after we broke up) because she was so devastated and emotionally weathered for the first 4-5 months they started developing a friendship. But that's probably a bit of a stretch on my part. The line about her ex having redeeming qualities besides but me not really having such qualities just makes me insane every time I read. How arrogant and cold. Anyway, I appreciate what you're saying about just being firm and confident in these dealings. Not sure what I'm going to do yet, but taking it day at a time. She's all about the 'love you, babe' and sweet and caring right now, and she even just forwarded me a picture of a dress that she wants to wear for my 'brother's wedding'. That's in July. I don't think I'll ever understand women... I just am really wondering if I should come out and tell her that I read this e-mail and let the chips fall where they may. I need to know what these statements were all about, one way or the other...if I'm a terrible person for reading her e-mail, fine...I've been trying to do all the little things I can to be a good person to her for so long and what do I get for it? The comments above?
Ronni_W Posted January 14, 2009 Posted January 14, 2009 I just am really wondering if I should come out and tell her that I read this e-mail and let the chips fall where they may. That probably is the best you can do, at this point. It does not make you a terrible person -- you could label your behaviour as sneaky or distrusting or whatever, but your actions are not indicative of the whole person that you are. I agree with you that, for your own peace and emotional well-being, you ought to find out what is going through her mind as far as you and your relationship are concerned. Based on the comments that you quoted, I would have to say that you deserve to be in a relationship in which you are appreciated, thought of more highly and treated better, on the whole.
Author middleman Posted January 14, 2009 Author Posted January 14, 2009 That probably is the best you can do, at this point. It does not make you a terrible person -- you could label your behaviour as sneaky or distrusting or whatever, but your actions are not indicative of the whole person that you are. I agree with you that, for your own peace and emotional well-being, you ought to find out what is going through her mind as far as you and your relationship are concerned. Based on the comments that you quoted, I would have to say that you deserve to be in a relationship in which you are appreciated, thought of more highly and treated better, on the whole. Thanks for continuing on with the responses. I know the issues I've presented in this thread are kind of all over the place. Much of the more severe stuff (verbal abuse, slaps, etc.) is a thing of the past. And the cheating occurred early on, a few break-ups ago. Even the fighting has subsided somewhat...but it still happens often. Not trying to say this makes any of it OK, but this is a different stage of the relationship... I guess in the end I'm just not sure what I think...and now she's talking as if we're together for the long haul again, 4-5 days after posting the e-mail statements above...she's often accused me of 'settling' or being 'complacent', and now she's talking as if we're destined to last forever despite stating that I don't have many good 'qualities' outside of sex. Madness... Anyway...thank your taking the time to post your feedback. Really, really appreciate it.
Ronni_W Posted January 14, 2009 Posted January 14, 2009 Anyway...thank your taking the time to post your feedback. Really, really appreciate it. No prob. Actually, it sounds as if you DO know that you think (and what you ought to do.) Maybe it's more that you are resisting what you know that you know? In any case. Wishing you ultimately positive outcomes.
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