Holy Wombats! Things Are Taking a Turn

[wildsoul]

Let me preface this by saying I do NOT have this story all clear in my head, nor do I have any questions really answered. Heck, I'm not even sure what my next questions for him will be. I'm posting before I know much of anything, but wowza--I just had an interesting call with my SM.

 

We've been spending the last few days apart, which has felt nice after so much togetherness during the holidays. I'm a girl that needs some alone time, too.

 

SM and I haven't even really talked since he left here Monday afternoon. I told you how he remembered my request to meet his W soon, but still--I didn't think he was actually going mention it to her. Yesterday, a couple of you talked me out of the idea, and I was going to tell him that next time I spoke with him.

 

Well, I just spoke with him alright. He's already put things in motion!

 

He mentioned a lot of things, and I was so shocked that I don't know how well I was comprehending him, but here's what I remember:

• Yesterday he drove to see his W, sort through the bills, yada yada.
  
• They also had a big talk about their M next steps.
  
• She told him that she's been waiting for him to come home, thinking that he was having a mid-life crisis or whatever. Not taking him seriously, even though he's been gone for all this time.
  
• He told her that he wants a divorce.
  
• He started bringing up the topics related to division of property with her. Selling their house to another party is probably not an option, so they've got to figure out some kind of economic plan for that and the other things related to D planning.
  
• She's claiming that she can't handle having papers in front of her just yet (so she's pleading and trying to buy time.)
  
• She finally got an almost FT job though, and that's helping him feel a lot better about her stability.
  
• He told her that he is dating me. Before, I knew that she knew who I was, but he was easing into revealing us. First he told her he was dating (in general.) Now, he's told her that he's dating ME.
  
• He also suggested that she and I meet, AND she agreed.
  
• Then he also said that he and I have a lot more to discuss, as he wants for us to start making our plans for this year together. He mentioned when his lease is up. He also mentioned that he knows I'm having a hard time making my mortgage since my self-employed income has dropped dramatically. He's leading up to a discussion of us living together or something, but I don't know what he's thinking.
  

I had a zillion things going thru my brain, information overload, so most of this is t.b.c. There were 2 specific things I asked and he answered:

1. Q: Did you set a date for when you'll be starting the D paperwork?
   A: No. She's just starting to get caught up to me now. I want to start talking about the planning now, but wait on the papers a little longer.
   
2. Q: How did you describe our R to her? Did you say we're just friends or did you tell her we are a couple?
   A: I didn't tell her we are engaged.
   Q: We're not engaged yet! You're still married! So what did you tell her?
   A: I told her that you and I are dating and that you're really important to me, a good person, etc. I want her to know that we are serious though.
   

By the way, I did make it very clear that while I had casually suggested meeting, and of course am willing to do so, from here on out the meeting needs to be at HER pace. I explained some of the points in the feedback you gave me about how she could feel very threatened and hurt, and that I was probably thinking too optimistically about how it would go. He agreed, so now that part is up to her to pursue when she's ready.

 

*whew* I was not expecting a call like that today!

[jj33]

Wow that is VERY big news. Good news actually. And good for you for making clear that the meeting needs to happen at her pace.

 

Of course you know finances are a really bad reason to move in together, but its really good that he has noticed your situation and wants to move forward with something like moving in.

 

Of course there is the question of his divorce...

 

Maybe I am missing something but I think its reasonable for him to wait to file the papers for a month or so if she is really wigging out about the speed with which it is happening - after all you two arent ready to get engaged yet.

 

But more than after the end of February would be too much in my view. She has to understand that much as it hurts he is moving on with his life. And that is likely crossing through her mind - what is a few months, its not like he could be thinking of remarriage... he only just left the house... (ya see... she is months behind him on the time line...)

 

The other thing is are you ready for him to jump from her house to being your fiance? Do you want to get engaged in March? Or do you want him to have a little bit of time to be filed and not yet engaged to you?

 

Personally I would waver something nice about shouting your committment from the rooftops but also something nice about him having a little time as an almost single man...

 

Another question - do you even want to get engaged before the divorce is final? Not sure i would want to really - its seems a bit fast. If you are spending the rest of your lives together, then you can wait til the ink is at least wet on his divorce decree before getting engaged. No reason for him to be not yet divorced from her and married to you.

 

Seems more likely he needs the comfort that he is not a man on his own. That he has a secure place in your life if when he files the D papers.

 

Anyway really pleased for you. He is showing he is serious. At least it seems that way to me.

[norajane]

Sounds like progress for you both!

 

But, um, why do you want to meet with her?

 

And I'd hold off on any moving in discussions. One of the worst reasons to move in with a bf is for financial reasons. Also, let him be on his own for a while. No need to dive in that deep just yet. I firmly believe women should live on their own until they get married...why do alllll the compromising that living together requires unless you are married? It tends to kill the romance, and I think you could probably use some romance and courtship now, at least for a while.

[wildsoul]

jj33, our thoughts run in a similar track.

 

Getting engaged before he is divorced is so tacky. One before, he mentioned something like "If I put a ring on your finger, would that prove I am committed to you?" My swift answer was: No way am I wearing your ring while your W still is! He got the point.

 

Ideally, I like the idea of an engagement to be after his D and also for us to not co-habitate until we are engaged either. Then assuming that all goes well, we get married.

 

The reality is I have no way of knowing how long his D will take. So what may end up happening is that we have a short "official" engagement. The planning and decisions that we'd be doing are the same, except there is no ring on my finger.

 

As to the cohabitating part. I don't know what I want! I don't like the vulnerability of moving in with someone who's not divorced yet. It sounds a little embarassing, too. We've read stories here about MM's that went straight into the OW's home and I don't think that has ever worked out. Mine got his own apartment first, but still the risk is there. Makes me nervous.

 

When I've been in long-term R's before, I kept my own apartment. Twice, I let serious boyfriends move in for a few months, but since I had really cheap rent, I held on to the single girl rental. It was only after my xH and I got engaged that I gave up that place and moved into a house that he bought (but that we picked out together.)

 

What's different now though is that I don't have a cheap single girl's apartment. I have a mortgage. My overhead is way too high compared to my income. I'm freaking out a bit. I don't want to walk away from my mortgage for an apartment that is just a few hundred dollars less. The best financial plan would be for me to share my home with a boyfriend or husband.

 

I've been feeling that financial drive influencing me and soul-searching. Is dating SM keeping me from dating someone who might really be able to commit, move in, and marry me? Is needing a financial partner causing me to push things too fast with SM? If lack of money wasn't an issue, how would I feel about this then?

 

Asking myself that last question the other day, I realized that if money was absolutely NO problem for me, this is what I would do: Continue to date SM with the intention that we will get married. Continue to watch his actions and see how he proceeds with his D. As long as that's progressing, I don't want to date anyone else. And I'd be totally fine with waiting for quite a while on cohabitating, and just enjoying spending a lot of time together.

 

My reality is such that money IS affecting me though. I wish that weren't the case.

[norajane]

Then get a roommate, or a second, part-time job. Or a different job altogether that pays a higher, steady income.

 

Moving men in to help pay your bills is not a good start...you start off needy, needing him for his money.

[wildsoul]

But, um, why do you want to meet with her?

It was an off-the-cuff idea I said to him. Everyone here talked me out of it. http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t175553/

 

Totally agree with you about the financials. I was typing that last post as you were.

 

PS: [in general, not specifically to you norajane] I don't want to think too hard on this just yet. I still need to hear more about what he's thinking. Reading all the stories here has made me wary, and I'm a worrier anyways (even though I hate admitting it.) For all I know he's going to suggest something kooky! LOL...for example, since he mentioned how they can't sell their big ol' house, and neither can I in this market, I started imagining that maybe he'll suggest we house swap! I move into their house with him, she moves into mine.

 

I need to chill out, see what he's got in mind, and meanwhile focus on my life. I'm excited because a tarot reader had predicted my financial worries were going to be solved by me having a strong love in my life. So part of me thinks maybe he's got a good idea coming. He is smart with finances, much more so than me. But then again, it's better to wait and see. Always with MM and SM it's better to wait and see.

[wildsoul]

Then get a roommate, or a second, part-time job. Or a different job altogether that pays a higher, steady income.

 

Moving men in to help pay your bills is not a good start...you start off needy, needing him for his money.

Sage words. Mostly I just need to build up my income. I live in the middle of no where, jobs are scarce and very low pay. My best bet is to tweak my business. I get paid really well when I have more clients.

 

A roommate would absolutely suck. Partly because I work from home and need quiet. Also, I looked into it, and since I live in the middle of nowhere, rooms are only renting for $300-500/month. I can earn that in just 2 hours! So it seems stupid to give up all my privacy.

 

You're of course right about neediness undermining relationships, but I've been thinking on this quite a bit. In this economy, it makes SO much more sense for people to couple up. I've got a romantic notion that we will soon see a boom of weddings and/or cohabitation as people realize the benefits of committment over living a single's life. In general, I think we well become less seperate, and focused more on interdependence in our local community. My prediction anyways.

[jj33]

OK take a deep breath and step back.

 

On the one hand you can earn 500 in just 2 hours. So its not worth having a roomate. So if its not worth having a roomate, then is it worth rushing things with SM? No.... no its not.

 

I dont know what your shortfall is, but I think part of hte problem is the massive fear that is generated by all the constant bad news in the press and bad news and fear on people's lips.

 

You ARE meeting your mortgage. You do have the means to meet it over the course of hte next year. Right? If I am reading this right its the fear of what if something happens and you cant....

 

That is not a good enough reason to rush into the future with SM or to move in with anyone.

 

You need your privacy so that you can have quiet to work.

 

You need that quiet so you can be productive. You need to be productive to make the money necessary so that you dont need a roomate and are not engulfed with teh money worries.

 

Maybe I am oversimplifying but I think that you are in a better situation than you think. Otherwise, the 500/mo would have sounded reallly good and would have been a lessened the financial demons. (but maybe 500 is worth a whole lot less than it used to be dont know...)

 

As for house swap... that is good for a laugh and a smile as if... (and why would she want to pay your mortgage on her almost full time new job salary??)

[mytruelove]

hi sweetie, i'm so glad things are proceeding nicely for you. it sounds like they really are.

 

i'm with every one else though. i think you need to ask yourself about your own neediness and his. why does HE seem to want to rush right into another living together/marriage, whatever after just coming out of a relationship? humm, it really sounds to me like he is STILL trying to make darn sure that he already has someone else (something else in the bag) to go to when he leaves his marriage, therefore, i then wonder, IF you weren't in the picture would he still get divorced or would he stay? BIG QUESTION cause i think we'd all rather know that a person leaves their marriage because they truly don't want to be in it - no matter what- and they leave because it is the right thing to do period...NOT because of someone else.

 

and as far as finances, i'm really afraid the way you talk that you will become dependent on him and then what if it doesn't work out? then you will have an even tougher time getting out.

 

i know you've been married before, so you have experience in this and know how very hard it is.

 

please use caution honey, i know your so anxious to have everything in order. i totally understand!!! but please be careful and take a deep breathe and think about this.

[2sure]

Totally get the money thing. But the fact is that finances are abig part of most of life's decisions. There is nothing wrong with taking them into consideration - they are a valid factor like it or not.

 

Meeting the wife. Drama.

They have no kids, no need to do this. It is only drama.

You want him to end this relationship and begin a new one with the two of you. By meeting his wife at this point - all three of you will begin participation in a joint drama. Thats exatly what you have been trying to put an end to.

[CAMAYPARK]

WS, I understand the financial difficulties and the difficult times we are all encountering at the moment. If, its me, I would hold off until its no longer possible in terms of co-habitation.

 

I so agree with you on the engagement thing- majorly tacky

 

What I don't get is this, meeting the W? Why?

[whichwayisup]

Things are going fast. And I hate to say it but something doesn't feel right .. Maybe it's because of this guys mood swings..People don't change this quickly and it was less than 2 months ago he was awful towards you and abusive to you afew months before as well. Enough that it scared you in the past.

 

I hope I'm wrong and things go well, but I'm with Cam on this one..Why the rush to meet his wife? This really should be done on her terms and comfort level. It all just seems very forced.

[mytruelove]

ws, i was just thinking about this as i was walking and something else occured to me.

 

maybe the rush on his part is him trying to avoid dealing with the end of his marriage? maybe he is trying to avoid the pain and reality of the ending of his marriage and his failure on that front along with his contribution and responsibility for it... then grieving and actually feeling it... then accepting it and being okay with it... then taking steps to ensure it doesn't happen again and repeat itself. there is A LOT A LOT to deal with here. what has he done to address or deal with any of that?

 

something to really really think about.

[Trimmer]

Agree with the question as to why meet his wife. I'm wondering what purpose or need this serves.

 

Do you feel a need to meet her? If so, why?

 

Do you believe you "owe" her a meeting with you? I don't think you do, and I don't see how that would be of any benefit to her...

 

It kind of has the feeling of two owners, negotiating to pass a pet from one family to the other - and I don't mean anything demeaning with regards to your SP in that, but it was the only metaphor I could come up with that conveyed the sense of ownership, and the "owners" getting together to discuss the outcome.

 

I think he needs to take control of finishing his relationship with her, and you don't need to take a place in that. And however you two decide to start and grow your relationship? Well, why give her a place in that? By intentionally planning a meeting with her, it seems like you are tacitly treating this situation as a transition from one relationship directly into another. Is that how you see this?

 

Don't you want him to stand on his own and step away from that relationship under his own power, and close that chapter, and then think of your own start as a separate thing?

[whichwayisup]

The only reason I could see them meeting is to make his soon to be ex-wife see that he's met and moved on, like a reality slap in the face - His wife seems to be unaccepting of the impending D and seems to believe the separation is a trial one, not one leading to divorce. Problem is, the MM hasn't been consistent with his wife, WHO knows what he's really told her .. Though I guess if Wild meets her, the truth will come out about what the MM has or hasn't said.

 

Just hope this meeting doesn't turn into a huge fight with hurt feelings..

[2sure]

SM has had a very difficult time separating because he did not want to be the bad guy - to either woman. Its hard, and its understandable - but it went on too long . My fear with you meeting his wife, before the divorce is that he is still trying to be the good guy to everyone. To make it like you can all three get along and be happy.

 

It drama, and its it is not realistic. He is not accepting that there is no way for him to be all to both of you. There is no way of coming out of this smelling like a rose. Pull of the band aid already.

[whichwayisup]

Another thing that is probably motivating him, he does NOT want to lose his in-laws as he thinks of them as real family. Problem is, his STBXW really won't want him around her folks, let alone bring WS into their lives as well. No offense to you WS, I'm just looking at this from a realistic view. I mean could you see spending a holiday with his ex wife and her parents because he feels like they're family to him?

 

He still needs time to be alone and grow as a person. You two NEED to get OUT of the affair relationship mode and the only way to do that is to casually date and get to know eachother again on a new level WITHOUT living together. Allowing this to happen naturally and not force a new life together so quickly.

[Trimmer]

The only reason I could see them meeting is to make his soon to be ex-wife see that he's met and moved on, like a reality slap in the face...

 

SM has had a very difficult time separating because he did not want to be the bad guy - to either woman.

 

Another thing that is probably motivating him, he does NOT want to lose his in-laws as he thinks of them as real family.

WS, I haven't read your background, but if these are more-or-less accurate, then I really think he needs to take responsibiliy and action in his life, and to realize that he is creating a change in his life that he is responsible for.

 

I reiterate that he is responsible for finishing out his current relationship. Getting you and his wife together - for whatever reason - sounds like a way of abdicating his resposibility for standing on his own two feet and taking care of things himself. Whether it's "making her realize", or whether it's about soothing her feelings, answering her questions about what the heck is going on, or whatever, now is the time for him to step up and be a man, a human being, and a humane being, and do those things himself.

 

Just hope this meeting doesn't turn into a huge fight with hurt feelings..

Even if it doesn't descend into a fight, you know what it does in the end? It gives his wife (and maybe, indirectly, her family?) a solid target other than him for her hurt feelings over the end of their relationship. The more I think about it, it just feels as if he's propping up Wildsoul as a shield against the things he can't or won't deal with...

[jwi71]

Wild,

 

I would like you to go back and read your first post in some of your recent threads. I'm going to sound a bit like a broken record, but R's are NOT like this. WWIU is right - something is "off". Not just now, but all of it. I really hope you go back and read - it seems like you are "living in the moment" and not seeing the big picture. Because you have moments of happiness in an otherwise unhealthy R and you - and maybe most people - accentuate the positive and play down the negative.

 

There is NO point in meeting the W! Why? Why the F do you WANT to meet her? What will you say? I mean really, its not right. What kind of sicko introduces his mistress to his W? And for what purpose?

 

"Hi Hon, this is Wild. This is the woman I have been shagging and I'm moving in with her. Whats today's soup special?"

 

Its cruel. Its viscous. Its rubbing her face in it.

 

ITS UNNECESSARY

 

If your MM wants out, then he can file for D and move on. As they have no children, there is NO reason to EVER meet her. Divorce and they move on.

 

But that isn't happening. Your MM is dragging this out for whatever reason.

 

Think Wild, think.

[whichwayisup]

Your MM is dragging this out for whatever reason.

 

Because he doesn't want to be the bad guy, yet he IS one by how he's handling EVERYTHING from his marriage, to his cheating and how he's treated Wild.

 

He doesn't want his life to change TOO much - He still wants to be in his wife's life, though that isn't really fair to her..He still wants his inlaws in his life, and part of divorcing IS letting go of one's past..Doesn't mean he shouldn't talk to his inlaws, but if he wants to see them, he can see them on his own, NOT while his (ex) wife is around.

 

Wild, again, I do want to see your happy, I'm just not sure in the long run you're going to have happiness with him. Maybe this is something you will have to let run it's course and ride it out reguardless of what happens or the outcome..You've invested alot into him..It's just that he hasn't invested the same into you and that's a HUGE concern.

[norajane]

Since WS isn't here a the moment, I just want to point out that she already commented on the part about meeting his W:

 

It was an off-the-cuff idea I said to him. Everyone here talked me out of it

[jj33]

Without threadjacking I dont really get the seeing the xH.... its a loyalty thing isnt it?

 

If your daughter is devastated because her bas**** H left her for another woman, do you really invite him and the new girl (even someone as lovely as WS) over for a family BBQ?

 

EVEN if your sobbing daughter is not around it seems VERY disloyal.

 

I think as WS said in her earlier thread this idea of them all hanging out together is a real fantasy on his part.

 

How does that go exactly:

 

Mother and father call daughter on phone: Hi darling. We just had xH and WS to dinner - you really messed that one up. He is such a fine man. Too bad he left you and she is so lovely. Too bad you werent able to join us...

 

or more realistically they see xH and WS, there is tension on some level because xW isnt there and its all just a mess unless xW is VERY happy about the divorce which she clearly isnt and isnt going to be anytime soon.

 

So long as WS makes sure she doesnt participate in an ambush then this is a red herring. The W is NEVER going to want to meet WS socially and so none of this will every happen. If H arranges an ambush in which he involves WS, then that is a firing offense and yes maybe even firing squad for all the reasons we have all stated.

 

In fact WS when you mention the no ambush you might add that it would feel more relaxed to meet her socially ONCE THE D IS UNDERWAY

 

(that ensures you are not involved in an ambush if he has already filed before you meet her).

[jj33]

And to add to NoraJanes comment - see her earlier thread on New Years check in - WS was convinced not to meet her other than in a social context which is instigated by W (for all the reasons jw stated)

[wildsoul]

Thanks everyone!

 

I know it's hard to follow everyone's drama, but most of you missed my post from a couple days ago when I checked in. That's when I said how and why I suggested meeting his W to him, but hadn't thought it through. jj33 and others talked me out of that half-assed idea. Then doh! he had his talk with her before I had a chance to recant it.

 

Bottom-line: you've got to see that he brought that up to her because I ASKED him to. So while I regret asking now, you've got to acknowledge that he was trying to do what I needed.

 

Hopefully the meeting will never happen. I told him to not mention it again, and leave it up to her next.

 

He's really trying to move things forward right now, as he should be (if you ask me.) Everyone I talk with has a different idea of the timing. Many people here say he should be signing papers now. Others say slow it all down. My best friend surprised me last night by saying he is going way too fast and should totally wait until the W wants to D. It's dizzying.

 

Utlimately, the timing of their D is really something between them. Yet that timing needs to be balanced out by what he says he wants with me. He's NOT going to do this perfectly. Heck, no one agrees on what perfectly even is. So for now, I'm just trying to strike that delicate balance of being with him, yet not clinging to him, and also keeping my own life going.

 

I'm happy that he's taken some steps this week!

 

MTL, um...thanks for watching my back, but in your list of reasons for why he'd want to be with me, you didn't seem to consider that he might LOVE me. He does love me. That is for real.

 

WWIU, you really get the in-law stuff. From day one, he's talked about how the idea of losing them is the hardest part. His own family is pretty disconnected. His mom died. His dad remarried and doesn't talk to his kids. His siblings are scattered in different states. He told me that one of the main reasons he married his W in the first place is that it felt so good to have a family around him. Her family has been his for 16 years.

 

He's going to try to make it work that he can get D'd and maintain a bit of relationship with them. We all know that the likelihood of failure is huge. But I know this: it's important enough to him that if he doesn't try, he's going to feel like crap later. If they reject his best efforts, he'll also feel horrible. My intution says I need to let him do this in his way, and be willing to support his vision of getting along with them, which I am. I'm very open-minded and willing to befriend them, if they want to befriend us.

[whichwayisup]

Then he can have a relationship with them alone. He shouldn't have to include you quickly into his inlaw's lives.. They can do lunches and stuff, and still be friendly. Though you are right, eventually things will change and he IS going to have to get used to that. I wouldn't push to meet his inlaws, not for a long while.

 

As for his wife, who knows if he truly mentioned it to her or just told you he did. Time will tell, but don't bring it up again.