kashmir Posted January 8, 2009 Posted January 8, 2009 For once I think I've come up with a question that might truly help me. People ask me what my problem is, but I don't know. I'm a human and obviously not close to perfect, but I certainly think I'm desirable in a number of ways and I think with all the activities I do that I should be able to date girls. I've always avoided this one thing, though, because I've always been afraid that it's the problem. I always wanted to assume it was something easy like bad breath or not being flirty enough, but I've gotta face the truth. I've only mentioned recently on these forums that I've had a history with mental illness. I don't think one of my conditions, schizophrenia, affects anything. I've learned to deal with that and its effects now only show themselves when I'm very depressed...and depression can be caused by sucking with girls. My other condition, though, will always be with me. It's the way I'm wired and there's no getting rid of it. I have Asperger's, which is a very high functioning degree of autism. When you read about it, it sounds like it's the same thing as being brutally shy, except it really isn't. I've overcome a lot of shyness. I can approach girls and talk to them without stuttering, getting nervous, or caring what they think. I can talk well and be very articulate. I make sure not to talk about myself too much and ask about her. But none I approach are ever interested, or worse - they're interested when they see me but once I talk to them they lose interest. It's happened with way too many just be bad luck. I hear people say that once you get over the shyness then it's easy to get a date, especially for my age. You just need talk, listen, smile, and get her number. It never works that way though. If I DO get her number (and it's not fake ) she never picks up or returns my calls or messages. Does anyone have any experience or knowledge with dating with a condition like mine? I feel like no matter what I do I have this invisible barrier around me that repels girls. I just feel like there's something subconscious in a girl's mind that finds my Asperger's unattractive no matter what.
Star Gazer Posted January 8, 2009 Posted January 8, 2009 Along with AS comes a complete lack of empathy. I think that might be part of the problem.
AlektraClementine Posted January 8, 2009 Posted January 8, 2009 I have experience with dating someone who was schizophrenic. It had very little affect on the relationship except for when the depression was in high gear. This man was one of the most brilliant and loving individuals I have ever known. And a musical genius to boot. We never got exceptionally close in the relationship though. He would retreat during these bouts for obvious reasons and I had a hard time coping and waiting for them to be over with which could take anywhere from a few days to a month. Eventually he settled down with a beautiful girl who also happened to have a psych degree
Author kashmir Posted January 8, 2009 Author Posted January 8, 2009 Actually, you're wrong. I can feel empathy for completely unrelated people in certain situations. The whole thing was John Travolta, I admit, was odd. I think it was that I really didn't like JT in the first place for several reasons. A kid from my school, whom I never talked to, killed himself last year. I cried for hours and felt ill for days. I wished and wished I could go back and time and stop him. That's empathy. Now...if one of the guys that harassed me over the years suddenly committed suicide, I'd feel no empathy. If I view you positively or neutrally then I'll feel empathy. If I view you negatively, I really don't care what happens to you. I've become tough and emotionless on the outside over the years as a defense mechanism to being picked on. Really, when you get to my inside, I'm very emotional. Now, I would like to get some real advice, not just snippy remarks.
underpants Posted January 8, 2009 Posted January 8, 2009 Why do you think some of your previous relationships with women have failed? How do you think they viewed things in retrospect? Can you view yourself via what their perspective might have been? You say people react oddly to you. What are you projecting (disorders aside) that may give cause to this reaction?
Star Gazer Posted January 8, 2009 Posted January 8, 2009 That wasn't a "snippy" remark. Every AP site and book out there says that those with AP lack empathy. It's a tell-tale sign. However, I can see that you're really not truly interested in help. So I'll move on.
carhill Posted January 8, 2009 Posted January 8, 2009 "Normal".... It's an interesting word. People make judgements about that word, based on their socialization and criteria they themselves only know about. I would suspect that you see the same dynamic in other areas of your life, but just markedly greater in the world of interpersonal sexual relationships aka romance. Ever get a strange "vibe" about someone? Like something isn't quite right? If you have, how are you defining "right". Is it in terms of what you consider "normal"? My mom has paraphrenia, a form of schizophrenia which can afflict the elderly, in particular those with dementing diseases of other sorts. Her social skills were such that she could appear "normal" to a casual visitor, but later talk matter of factly about the people who lived in the "vents" (air conditioning ducts) who watched her and plotted to take her things while she slept. After caring for her for awhile, I could literally watch the switch flip. Her eyes would change. I have/have had female friends with epilepsy, bi-polar, and other conditions of the brain and, largely, they were/are "normal". But, that said, I get a "feeling" from them sometimes, which I recognize from caring for my mom, that they're about to "switch". I know how to handle that, and any resultant behaviors, because of my experience. Back when I was younger, I didn't, and would avoid women like that, just because of that "feeling". I'm sure some women did the same to me, as I certainly don't have "normal" locked up Seriously, I think, indeed, the confused mind does say "no" and only life experience and education can change basic perspectives like those "feelings". I assume you've had cognitive therapy and are using some medications. I've always respected your postings and felt you bring depth to the LS experience. I think, in time, with proper exposure, ladies will see those positive qualities. Me, I'm still a wreck. When are mid-life crises supposed to end, anyway...? One last thought, and I'm unsure if it applies....but did for myself. Perhaps, in your zeal to compensate for what you might perceive as your deficiencies, you come across as trying too hard. I know that I did this for years, and it was likely the cause of a lot of my woes as a single man. Thoughts?
Author kashmir Posted January 8, 2009 Author Posted January 8, 2009 Why do you think some of your previous relationships with women have failed? Never had any previous relationships. How do you think they viewed things in retrospect? Can you view yourself via what their perspective might have been? You say people react oddly to you. What are you projecting (disorders aside) that may give cause to this reaction? I honestly have no idea what girls might have thought of me. All I can think of is that they thought I was different. What am I projecting? Hmm...well that's my whole issue. I don't know what I'm projecting. When I see a girl I like, I'm feeling happy and I'm interested in her. I want to talk to her and I want to get to know her. I don't know what I project. That wasn't a "snippy" remark. Every AP site and book out there says that those with AP lack empathy. It's a tell-tale sign. However, I can see that you're really not truly interested in help. So I'll move on. Yes, but not a COMPLETE lack of empathy. It's AS, btw. I am looking for help, but you came into this thread without anything constructive to say. If you really believe the problem is that I lack empathy, why don't you tell me how to fix it, not just point out the obvious and rub it in my face.
Author kashmir Posted January 8, 2009 Author Posted January 8, 2009 Carhill, a great point you made about being "normal." I'm not normal, but I really ain't all that different. I don't go to therapy much anymore but it helps when I go, and yes I'm on several meds. And that's a good point you make about trying too hard. There maybe was a time where I tried too hard to force my qualities to the front, but I don't think that's it. If I'm trying too hard, shouldn't I be jumping on every attractive girl I see? Shouldn't I be trying to impress? I don't try to impress. I would like for people to recognize my good qualities, but I don't go out of my way for them to see it.
underpants Posted January 8, 2009 Posted January 8, 2009 Never had any previous relationships. Oh. Well then, we will have to find you a lady. Are you in school? I saw that you wait tables, how about striking up a friendship with some co-workers? Is there a waitress or hostess that might warm up to you? You might have better luck and perhaps less stress if you were not so formal in asking them out. Work the friend angle, be approachable and friendly. Your conditions might just counter a new and at first uncomfortable effort and give you that mysterious edge that some ladies go for. I'm not saying this is what you do, but don't meet a girl, get big eyed and immediately ask her out or for her number. Relax and have fun and don't put pressure on yourself to close the deal. If you do ask and she declines, her loss, right? There should be a girl somewhere that you could build a comfortable friendship over time with. Once you get in a few short conversations, ask for her help with something? A ride somewhere, or proof reading something, or whatever. Then you will have to thank her for the help. Buy her a cup of coffee, a beer, lunch. Viola, date 1 and a half. Go get her champ.
Star Gazer Posted January 8, 2009 Posted January 8, 2009 Yes, but not a COMPLETE lack of empathy. It's AS, btw. I am looking for help, but you came into this thread without anything constructive to say. If you really believe the problem is that I lack empathy, why don't you tell me how to fix it, not just point out the obvious and rub it in my face. I obviously knew it was AS, as I typed AS above. It was an obvious typo. Forgive me, your highness. As for empathy, I haven't seen an ounce of it on LS since you've arrived. In fact, I think I asked you several times if you have AS??? I think it was you, anyway. Anyway, all I've seen is a lot of anger and hostility. From what I've read, your attitude/communication style is the same in every thread. I can only assume some of that translates in real life? That's what I meant when I said a lack of empathy might be a problem for you. I'm not a trained mental health professional, so I cannot tell you how to treat your condition. But no worries, I'll stay out of your threads from now on.
AlektraClementine Posted January 8, 2009 Posted January 8, 2009 I'd like to say Kashmir, that I thoroughly enjoy your posts. You are a rare breed on this site. Very introspective and exceedingly bright IMO. Carhill - ditto
Author kashmir Posted January 8, 2009 Author Posted January 8, 2009 Oh. Well then, we will have to find you a lady. Are you in school? I saw that you wait tables, how about striking up a friendship with some co-workers? Is there a waitress or hostess that might warm up to you? You might have better luck and perhaps less stress if you were not so formal in asking them out. Work the friend angle, be approachable and friendly. Your conditions might just counter a new and at first uncomfortable effort and give you that mysterious edge that some ladies go for. I'm not saying this is what you do, but don't meet a girl, get big eyed and immediately ask her out or for her number. Relax and have fun and don't put pressure on yourself to close the deal. If you do ask and she declines, her loss, right? There should be a girl somewhere that you could build a comfortable friendship over time with. Once you get in a few short conversations, ask for her help with something? A ride somewhere, or proof reading something, or whatever. Then you will have to thank her for the help. Buy her a cup of coffee, a beer, lunch. Viola, date 1 and a half. Go get her champ. I am in school and I have had waiting jobs, though right now I'm not waiting. Generally, the women who wait are too old for me (old meaning in their mid 20's), and the ones that are my age are not really my kind of girls. Some of them are pretty, but they're almost always heavy duty party girls who usually are alcoholics...sometimes coke addicts even. Hostesses are trouble. I haven't gotten googly-eyes over a girl since my first crush in high school. There are a few girls that are first-degree friends, ie I bump into them from time to time...none that I'm really interested in though. Hell, 90% of my dorm this year are girls. Everything I do seems to back fire though. I talk with one for a bit and then mention at the end that we should meet for lunch sometime, but they always blow me off. There's no reason to unless they outright hate me, which I don't think is possible. I obviously knew it was AS, as I typed AS above. It was an obvious typo. Forgive me, your highness. As for empathy, I haven't seen an ounce of it on LS since you've arrived. In fact, I think I asked you several times if you have AS??? I think it was you, anyway. Anyway, all I've seen is a lot of anger and hostility. From what I've read, your attitude/communication style is the same in every thread. I can only assume some of that translates in real life? That's what I meant when I said a lack of empathy might be a problem for you. I'm not a trained mental health professional, so I cannot tell you how to treat your condition. But no worries, I'll stay out of your threads from now on. Sometimes I'm angry. I have some rage in me, no doubt about that, but I guarantee that sometimes you misinterpret my attempts at light sarcasm as bitterness. I notice I swear a lot on here. That's for humor, not for anger. Whenever you see me swear on here, think of it like Chris Tucker is saying it, because that's the way I'm thinking it. Same goes for real life. I do act fake-frustrated and swear for laughs. My friends get it, but maybe people who don't know me actually think I'm ranting about something. I need to be more careful in that respect. I'd like to say Kashmir, that I thoroughly enjoy your posts. You are a rare breed on this site. Very introspective and exceedingly bright IMO. Carhill - ditto Thank you. =)
carhill Posted January 8, 2009 Posted January 8, 2009 There maybe was a time where I tried too hard to force my qualities to the front, but I don't think that's it. If I'm trying too hard, shouldn't I be jumping on every attractive girl I see? Shouldn't I be trying to impress? I don't try to impress. I would like for people to recognize my good qualities, but I don't go out of my way for them to see it.Ah, I was incomplete.... the "try too hard" isn't a literal impetus to action, as in "jumping on every attractive girl I see", rather a more subtle signal you give out all the time, based on your own awareness of your condition and what you perceive to be your deficiencies, whether or not they and you would appear to others that way or not. This is the essence of the mind and its effect on the world. Here's how I changed. I can say this because I have a half century to reflect on my mistakes Once I began to live outside myself and became less occupied with my own internal voices, the more accepted and attractive I became to others. My appearance didn't change (I'm older, less fit and more bald now) but the essence of my self image did, and that's what made the difference. I "try" less now and sincerely enjoy the gift of life (caring for my mom was a wake-up call there) and relish the small joys which come my way. Let me ask you a question. If you could change one thing about yourself that would guarantee you success with girls, what would it be, and why? Hint: There is no "normal" answer
Author kashmir Posted January 8, 2009 Author Posted January 8, 2009 Let me ask you a question. If you could change one thing about yourself that would guarantee you success with girls, what would it be, and why? Hint: There is no "normal" answer Good question. If you asked me that in past times, I might have said something dumb, like my hook nose or my flabby chest. Those things might make little differences, but to girls of little importance. Really...what I would change? That's tough because a few things come to mind. I was going to say how I deal with rejection, but relatively I actually deal with rejection pretty good, but it takes a day or so. One time I approached a girl and it turned out to be so awkward that after I was out of her sight I literally ran away laughing at what an idiot I was...but that's the thing, I was able to laugh at myself and feel good for trying instead of beating myself up for it not working out. So I wouldn't change that... I'm also tempted to say how I think of girls, but then I realize that I'm 19 years old. No matter how much guys and girls try to conceal it, they'll usually have the opposite sex on their mind, especially guys. Honestly, I think I think about girls less than some other guys I know. I know this because I go about my day thinking about so many other things, and then come to my computer, log onto LS, and THEN think about girls. Ok, I got it. I would be patient. I would KNOW that I'm not missing out or wasting my college years by not dating girls or having a girlfriend. That's what gets me the most - I feel like there's something wrong with me because I've never had a girlfriend...like I've got a good brain, a good heart, a good body, but no balls that make me a man. I feel that by not having a girlfriend or having girls into me that I'm much less of a male. I'll see couples and I'll feel like I'm missing out. I think I'd feel much better if I could walk by them and be able to truly believe, "My time will come" and then get all this crap about being an alpha-male vs. a beta-male out of my head.
carhill Posted January 8, 2009 Posted January 8, 2009 Here's a couple of comments: You have testosterone coursing through your body. You have "balls". It's really OK to let your penis think for you once in awhile Think less That's it
D-Lish Posted January 8, 2009 Posted January 8, 2009 All empathy is, is being able to put yourself in someone else's shoes. Not feeling sorry for them, just having some insight what it might be like to be in their situation. It's insight, but it isn't sympathy. Although- having empathy can evoke sympathy and other emotions. Empathy can come naturally for some people, but not for others. So Star may be right to point out that empathy might be playing a role in your interactions with others. You can learn empathy! With regard to your friend that commited suicide... you felt sadness and regret over the loss (feelings that derive from within). Empathy, would be more about seeing the world through his eyes and getting a handle on how he might have been personally affected by the world around him (removing your own filters, judgements and feelings to see the world as another does). I don't know if you have a lack of empathy or even if it's part of your problem- just throwing out the possibility because someone else mentioned it. I'm not overly familiar with your syndrome (autism yes). I merely know that autistics do not experience empathy. Empathy can be learned though. It's a matter of training yourself to think about what the other person is experiencing and imagining what it would be like to feel as they do. Empathy is a huge part of forming close bonds with people- and you don't have to have experienced the same situation in order to employ it. You can learn it if you train yourself to think differently. I don't know if that's off topic or even helps. I hope it does a little.
Author kashmir Posted January 8, 2009 Author Posted January 8, 2009 Thanks carhill, I'll let ol' Peter Johnson have his say more often. I put myself in other people's shoes all the time, and I think most of the time my perception is accurate except when I'm involved - ie - when I'm interacting with another person, I have trouble trying to speculate what the other person's perspective of me is. I'm almost always way off when I find out the truth. I tend not to have sympathy as easily as others. You tell me about some tragedy that happened to a celebrity, I probably won't care. You tell me about a tragedy that happened to a regular ol' guy, then I'll care a little. The only things that will really move me are people I know or animals. Yes, I'll feel more sympathy for a mother dog that lost her pups than a celebrity losing his child.
carhill Posted January 8, 2009 Posted January 8, 2009 I'll let ol' Peter Johnson have his say more often. LOL, nice one. Literally? No. Your literal actions are those of your personality type. That said, feeling the lust; letting yourself assign it to someone you desire; projecting it to them. I gotta tell ya, it works. If only I were your age again Regarding empathy, I'm not precisely sure of how D would describe it, but I'll give it a go..... have you ever had a friend who was in obvious pain and you wanted to just embrace them and tell them you felt their pain and were there for them, and then you did, without even thinking it through, thinking about how your actions might be perceived by them or by others? Acting completely on empathic instinct? Taking on their pain as your own? Tell me, do you have platonic female friends? If so, would you say you identify more with your male friends or female friends? Why? Remember, a few good friends are like gold, so I'm not concerned about numbers.
Cherry Blossom 35 Posted January 8, 2009 Posted January 8, 2009 D-Lish has some really good things to say on the empathy angle. Read her post again. Kashmir, you are 19 years old. We are all unformed beings at 19 years old. You are doing the right things- getting advice, trying to talk to girls, etc. But please give yourself some breathing room. The time between 19 and let's say, 25 or so is a big learning time. Yes, you have mental issues that affect you, and that is good that you are aware of this. Remember though, that Rome wasn't built in a day.
zenith Posted January 8, 2009 Posted January 8, 2009 lack of empathy in AS... someone has done their homework! although it may differ from person to person, it is one of several characteristics of AS sufferers... including alexithymia and not reading non-verbal cues properly not saying you have exact symptoms/characteristics, kashmir... I think you are an intelligent individual and still very young mind you, regardless of AS, most young people (under the age of 25 or sometimes much older) need to be more exposed to inter-personal relationships to fully mature and act accordingly don't think too much about your condition and don't try to relate everything you have done to AS you are still 19, have fun and relax!
Author kashmir Posted January 8, 2009 Author Posted January 8, 2009 Tell me, do you have platonic female friends? If so, would you say you identify more with your male friends or female friends? Why? Remember, a few good friends are like gold, so I'm not concerned about numbers. I have a lot of females I know but am not very close to...same with males. Then there are people I see on a daily basis that I laugh with and do things with. And then there are my true friends...ones that I can actually talk to about deeper things. There are only 2 definite people that fall into this category, one male and one female. I'll never have to worry about doing something dumb or saying something they don't agree with, because I trust they go beyond that. I don't think I identify with one gender over another. They both have their pros and cons. D-Lish has some really good things to say on the empathy angle. Read her post again. Kashmir, you are 19 years old. We are all unformed beings at 19 years old. You are doing the right things- getting advice, trying to talk to girls, etc. But please give yourself some breathing room. The time between 19 and let's say, 25 or so is a big learning time. Yes, you have mental issues that affect you, and that is good that you are aware of this. Remember though, that Rome wasn't built in a day. Yeah, I know. I know I've got all the time in the world, but as I said, I'm a teenage boy who has hormones racing through his body. It's hard not to think about girls. lack of empathy in AS... someone has done their homework! although it may differ from person to person, it is one of several characteristics of AS sufferers... including alexithymia and not reading non-verbal cues properly not saying you have exact symptoms/characteristics, kashmir... I think you are an intelligent individual and still very young mind you, regardless of AS, most young people (under the age of 25 or sometimes much older) need to be more exposed to inter-personal relationships to fully mature and act accordingly don't think too much about your condition and don't try to relate everything you have done to AS you are still 19, have fun and relax! I'm very glad you see it that way. I'm reluctant to speak of my condition because people tend to make blanket generalizations based on what they read about it, kinda like what SG did here. Mental conditions are very individualized, and while people with the same condition tend to show similarities, everyone is different. You can't make an assumption about a symptom until you actually observe it.
carhill Posted January 8, 2009 Posted January 8, 2009 Mental conditions are very individualized, and while people with the same condition tend to show similarities, everyone is different. You can't make an assumption about a symptom until you actually observe it. Yes, as a neuropsychometrist at UCSF's ARC told me, when you've seen one dementia patient, you've seen one dementia patient. I can't tell you how many people have said "Oh, she has Alzheimer's; she forgets". I smile and tell them that is a blessing I could only wish for. Mental illness is indeed so individualized. I don't think I identify with one gender over another. They both have their pros and cons. OK, now tell me how you feel with your female friend and male friend. Examine the feelings which bond you to them. Many will be similar but some are different. What is it about your female friend which inspires different feelings than you might have for another woman, a woman you wish to date? The answers may seem obvious, but they're really not. Everything you need is right inside you. You just have to discover it As was mentioned, emotional growth is a huge part of the period of life which you are traversing right now. It can, for some, be overwhelming. There aren't any "right" answers. There are your answers. You are unique. Remember that your female contemporaries are going through their version of the same thing. It's a journey.
Isolde Posted January 9, 2009 Posted January 9, 2009 Kashmir, I don't think you come across as solely vitriolic. You're 19 and you have all these issues to deal with, but the main tone that strikes me in your posts is not anger but curiosity. I don't have AS, but I'm fairly naive socially, so many of your questions are mine as well. I went on a few dates with a guy who *may* have had a condition similar to yours. I liked him; he seemed like a genuinely nice guy. Empathy is not the same as being a good person. It helps people be better, sure, but it is not who you are. Like D-Lish said, it's learnable.
Ruby Slippers Posted January 9, 2009 Posted January 9, 2009 I strongly suspect my last boyfriend has Asperger's. I only figured this out toward the end of our relationship, though. He said an ex who worked with autistic kids and kids with Asperger's even said he had some of the symptoms. He was sometimes extremely literal, seemed to lack empathy, avoided eye contact, would deliver long and eloquent monologues without pause, and many other things. He said he would see a counselor about it (and our problems in general), but never went through with it. I really think this had something to do with our problems, and I think he was in denial and afraid to do anything about it. It will probably impact your relationships in the future. If I were you, I would seek counseling. You're a college student, right? There might be a free counseling center on campus that you can visit. There are also support and information forums. Good luck.
Recommended Posts