First Post: Place your bets how this will turn out.

[theBrokenMuse]

I guess some people just want to say that children should automatically take the side of the morally right. I'm saying that it's not right for children to take sides. The children are not the ones being morally wronged by adultery. The spouse is. Therefore, they have no right to get involved. Children should simply love and respect both their parents because they owe their parents these things. They are indebted for all the care the parents gave in raising them.

 

If I ever were to cheat on my spouse and my children told on me, I would be devastated that I was caught but I would actually admire the strength and conviction in my children that it took for them to do that. It would show me that I raised them right. To do the right thing, even if it means getting someone you love mad at you. No one said being a good, decent, moral human being is easy. It tasks b*lls of steel sometimes.

 

Love isn't enabling people to do wrong, love is forcing them to see the consequences of bad actions rather then help them cover it up. My father was a cheater and had I known all the details before she did, I would have spilled the beans to my Mother without hesitation. I think letting a person you love suffer at the hands of another because you don't want to get involved is morally bankrupt.

[Geishawhelk]

I guess some people just want to say that children should automatically take the side of the morally right. I'm saying that it's not right for children to take sides. The children are not the ones being morally wronged by adultery. The spouse is. Therefore, they have no right to get involved. Children should simply love and respect both their parents because they owe their parents these things. They are indebted for all the care the parents gave in raising them.

 

I've heard some BS in my time but this ......

 

Children are being morally wronged by adultery, because the adulterous parent is abandoning their moral post as a moral instructor and teaching them that conversely, to live immorally is ok.

It isn't.

if Children become involved, it is very often because they feel compelled by circumstance to do so. They may not wish to become involved but all to often, they're put in the unenviable position of becoming involved.

 

There is nothing anywhere that states parents are "owed" love and respect. These have to be earned.

There may be an original level of Love and respect due to the positions of those involved, but it's up to those in the positions of deserving, to cultivate these motions.

 

And there are countless thousands of people who have absolutely nothing to be grateful for with regard to their upbringing.

Case in point dear.

[Info SuperThighway]

Okay....good news.

 

Called SiL today and she sounds a lot better, a bit angrier than sad today, and sounding a lot more empowered. So I told her about this site and that I made a post here. I promised to send her the link (I'm doing that right now) so she can read the responses.

 

Truth is, I started this post to help myself deal with what is going on. It was a way to get to talk with people who weren't involved. But with my SiL I know that I can't be as much help. Emotionally, sure...but that's all I can do is say how I love and support them. Most of you here have what I do not, the life experiences of this kind of situation - and can offer her good advice she can use where I can't.

 

That being said, I'm sending the link right now...she may just come in here and choose to read, and maybe she'll be posting. Her choice on what she wants to do here, but either way please be kind to her, she's a great lady and one I love very much and she's been though probably the WORST situations I can think of. I still am in shock at what an ass my brother can be. I'm sure she's doubly as shocked.

 

Thanks again for all your kind responses. Maybe some of you that have done this yourself can give her insight on how to handle this. Issues about bills, and legality, etc. I just don't know about. I went through a divorce myself (married when I was 16...dumb as a brick) but my divorce in our state was easy because I had no kids, no property, etc...and I handled it myself (no lawyer) because it was "easy". Her situation isn't.

 

Thanks to all the posters. I'll let SiL take it from here if she so wishes.

[vnqsh2001]

Pelican: Thanks for the support. I mean it. (HUG) I'm sure vnqsh's posts are probably being affected by his own situation right now. I think I read on another post his wife was cheating, maybe he's upset and is thinking in the back of his mind he wished he had been left in the dark at this point (what I wouldn't have known wouldn't be hurting me now scenerio) and it is translating over to his own posts to me. I'm trying to be understanding in light of his own situation.

 

No, sorry, that's not it at all. I was the one who proactively found out about my wife's affair because I really wanted to know. The right to know is not what I'm disputing. I'm just saying that it should stay between the husband and wife as much as possible. I especially hate to see the children get involved, though it almost always happens in one way or another.

 

You obviously have issues with your own father. I sense a lot of hostility. As a father, I think that is too bad. The relationship between a father and his children is an important one.

 

I know I cannot convince you to believe you may not have done the absolutely right thing by telling your mother. You've already spent a lot of time convincing yourself that you did the completely right thing. Putting the argument of right or wrong aside, there is still another side to all of this, and I think you feel that in your gut too. Sitting around and justifying what you did can kind of push those feelings into the shadows of your mind.

 

I think it really boils down to the fact that you had a lot of anger for your father. Because of this, you probably feel you got some sort of revenge on him that was justified. You probably tell yourself that you just don't care so much about him because he doesn't deserve your love. I think he probably gets that impression too. It's a sad story, but it's too late to erase the past. I think there are lessons for all that hear it, so thanks for sharing it.

[Info SuperThighway]

I think it really boils down to the fact that you had a lot of anger for your father. Because of this, you probably feel you got some sort of revenge on him that was justified. You probably tell yourself that you just don't care so much about him because he doesn't deserve your love. I think he probably gets that impression too. It's a sad story, but it's too late to erase the past. I think there are lessons for all that hear it, so thanks for sharing it.

 

Nah, I'm really not trying to justify it, just to explain it. Trust me, I understand my relationship with my own adulterous dad is not an easy one to understand. There is a lot more background than just this one area that explains it, but unless a person has lived my own life (which is impossible) it would be very hard to understand it. But point blank, my father is a lot of things. He's actually very intelligent - but he has always lacked the social abilities of most human beings. Probably because of how he was raised, as a kid he was shipped off to Catholic Military School. (Can you believe that actually exists?) He was raised there.

 

But after my mother died a lot of wool was lifted from my eyes. Sure, I had my suspicions of just how involved/loving (or not) a father he was growing up. But eventually I learned he was a person who knew very little about me, disrespected me because I am female (he is very sexist and believes women are below men), and basically is a guy who doesn't even know how old I am and only after somebody remids him of my birthday will he call and then ask how old I am, and his own guesses are always off by at least 3 years.

 

His infedelity was only the tip of an iceberg of s***. But I really, honestly, no psychobabble needed, I have gotten over it. I was angry a lot of years and spent most of my life dying for his attention and wanting him to notice/love me but as I grew up I realized he was nothing but emotional baggage that I had to let go otherwise it would keep me from having a life of my own. So that's where I am now I suppose. I'm too concerned about the family I have that actually cares about me than to worry about a father who never respected me or my family since the start. I can't choose how I grew up but I am in control of how the rest of my life will be and that man just holds me back from happiness.

[vnqsh2001]

I've heard some BS in my time but this ......

 

Children are being morally wronged by adultery, because the adulterous parent is abandoning their moral post as a moral instructor and teaching them that conversely, to live immorally is ok.

It isn't.

if Children become involved, it is very often because they feel compelled by circumstance to do so. They may not wish to become involved but all to often, they're put in the unenviable position of becoming involved.

 

There is nothing anywhere that states parents are "owed" love and respect. These have to be earned.

There may be an original level of Love and respect due to the positions of those involved, but it's up to those in the positions of deserving, to cultivate these motions.

 

And there are countless thousands of people who have absolutely nothing to be grateful for with regard to their upbringing.

Case in point dear.

 

The biggest load of BS I have ever heard is that parents aren't "owed" love and respect.

 

Since when was parenting easy? Since when did it not take a lot of work and sacrifice? Since when are children born with knowledge that doesn't require instruction from those more experienced? Since when can a child even survive on their own?

 

Even if some abusive parent(s) didn't provide all the necessary things like love, food, shelter, encouragement, knowledge, etc..., they probably still provided at least the partial requirements necessary for your survival and development. The only way a child wouldn't owe their parents anything is if they were left in basket out in the middle of a forest to be raised by wolves. Even then, they should probably still be thankful that they were placed in a location that allowed their survival. The most precious gift your parents ever gave you was allowing you to live. Not every child gets that either, so you really shouldn't take that for granted.

 

Respect and love should be earned? Yes! Our parents earned this and they are now owed. Unfortunately, there are countless thousands today who are ignorant about the truly virtuous nature of our dear parents. They should be taught, because these are the selfish people ruining our societies. They don't know how to appreciate what they have been given and instead look at everything they take as their right to possess.

[vnqsh2001]

I've heard some BS in my time but this ......

Children are being morally wronged by adultery, because the adulterous parent is abandoning their moral post as a moral instructor and teaching them that conversely, to live immorally is ok.

It isn't.

if Children become involved, it is very often because they feel compelled by circumstance to do so. They may not wish to become involved but all to often, they're put in the unenviable position of becoming involved.

 

Children are not directly wronged by adultery. They are simply being shown a bad example. They are witnesses to a crime, not victims. They become victims when they get placed in the ensuing conflict though, since emotions run high and angry words fly.

[Info SuperThighway]

Respect and love should be earned? Yes! Our parents earned this and they are now owed. Unfortunately, there are countless thousands today who are ignorant about the truly virtuous nature of our dear parents. They should be taught, because these are the selfish people ruining our societies. They don't know how to appreciate what they have been given and instead look at everything they take as their right to possess.

 

 

While I can understand your sentiment, my biggest difference is between love and respect.

 

Yes, I love my father. I love him because he is my father. But that's where that ends.

 

And I do respect a lot of his actions. He was a hard-worker. Though I may not have been emotionally satisfied, I grew up much luckier than most. He was a good provider and I always had a nice house to live in and there were always a lot of presents for me under the tree. Sure, my mom bought all of them, but I know it was Dad who made that possible.

 

And I've always admired his level of intelligence. Though he may be socially and linguistically lacking, he has math abilities you only read about and I could only dream of having. It is a natural skill in which is was blessed.

 

But as an adult, respecting him as a person, and his moral fibre? Hard to do. I respect what he did for me - of course I wasn't left in a basket for wolves and I actually was provided a very cushy life for the most part but there are different facets of respect, and some of which - he never earned.

 

But in any case, I humbly ask you that whatever qualms you may have about my own situation that you either take it privately or start a new thread. I would really like this to be a place for my SiL to get to talk to people without any flamewar talking any presedence over her situation. I'd be happy to adress any issues or questions you may have, just perhaps in a different area.

[theBrokenMuse]

The biggest load of BS I have ever heard is that parents aren't "owed" love and respect.

 

Since when was parenting easy? Since when did it not take a lot of work and sacrifice? Since when are children born with knowledge that doesn't require instruction from those more experienced? Since when can a child even survive on their own?

 

The only way a child wouldn't owe their parents anything is if they were left in basket out in the middle of a forest to be raised by wolves. Even then, they should probably still be thankful that they were placed in a location that allowed their survival. The most precious gift your parents ever gave you was allowing you to live. Not every child gets that either, so you really shouldn't take that for granted.

 

Respect and love should be earned? Yes! Our parents earned this and they are now owed.

 

Wow. You are so wrong that you are fractally wrong. Just because you provide some sperm or managed to push out a baby doesn't mean you are now entitled to *anything* from the child you chose to create. No one is entitled to love and respect just on the basis of their title alone or deserves a medal of honor because they supplied some DNA. A child has no choice being brought into the world. They sure as hell didn't ask for it and some of them are not better off for it.

[vnqsh2001]

[FONT=&quot]

Nah, I'm really not trying to justify it, just to explain it. Trust me, I understand my relationship with my own adulterous dad is not an easy one to understand. There is a lot more background than just this one area that explains it, but unless a person has lived my own life (which is impossible) it would be very hard to understand it. But point blank, my father is a lot of things. He's actually very intelligent - but he has always lacked the social abilities of most human beings. Probably because of how he was raised, as a kid he was shipped off to Catholic Military School. (Can you believe that actually exists?) He was raised there.

 

 

Let me ask this, if the cheating situation were reversed, would you have told on your mother? If you thought your father was being a despicable louse and you listened to your mother cry herself to sleep every day, would you have justified your mother's needs and simply kept quiet about it? Is there any treatment by your father that would have justified your mother's immoral behavior?

 

And what if the child does tell Daddy about the affair and Daddy goes out to the shed and blows his own head off with a shotgun? After all, men do have more of a propensity toward violence. Was it still right for the child to do that? Isn't that child going to be feeling a tremendous guilt?

 

I think there are more serious moral dilemmas involved in this matter than most people realize.

 

[/FONT]

[vnqsh2001]

But in any case, I humbly ask you that whatever qualms you may have about my own situation that you either take it privately or start a new thread. I would really like this to be a place for my SiL to get to talk to people without any flamewar talking any presedence over her situation. I'd be happy to adress any issues or questions you may have, just perhaps in a different area.

 

I wasn't aware that I was flaming anyone (I still don't think I am), I was just disagreeing with some of what you said. The advice you were giving your niece on this subject is parallel to your own past experiences. I understand that you aren't comfortable with what happened in your own life and may not enjoy talking about it, but you have been relating it to the lives of others and affecting them. So it is directly related to the subject matter of this post.

 

Sorry if I haven't been the encouragement you were looking for by telling you all the things you want to hear, but then what fun would that be? How would you ever appreciate the knowledge and support you did gain by posting your comments to others? Do you really just want people to tell you what you already believe?

[Info SuperThighway]

I wasn't aware that I was flaming anyone (I still don't think I am), I was just disagreeing with some of what you said. The advice you were giving your niece on this subject is parallel to your own past experiences. I understand that you aren't comfortable with what happened in your own life and may not enjoy talking about it, but you have been relating it to the lives of others and affecting them. So it is directly related to the subject matter of this post.

 

Sorry if I haven't been the encouragement you were looking for by telling you all the things you want to hear, but then what fun would that be? How would you ever appreciate the knowledge and support you did gain by posting your comments to others? Do you really just want people to tell you what you already believe?

 

vnqsh2001: The reason I asked for a new thread is because I asked for my SiL to come here. She's the one needing support most right now, not me.

 

And no, I am not looking for you to be a form of encouragement. I've had over a decade to come to conclusions and ponder my life and I have no problems talking about it. You however, seem to wish to convince me otherwise - which if that's what you really want to do, fine, I'm game. But this is not the place for it. Right now, my SiL is coming here to read and you're taking up space with your own ideals.

 

If you want to bring the issue up and beat a dead horse, be my pleasure to continue telling my side. Just please, another thread - not here - let my SiL have her time.

 

I'm trying my best to be respectful - I know you are here because you have had a bad situation yourself and for that I'm sorry...I really hope things get better for you and I hope this site helps.

[vnqsh2001]

Wow. You are so wrong that you are fractally wrong. Just because you provide some sperm or managed to push out a baby doesn't mean you are now entitled to *anything* from the child you chose to create. No one is entitled to love and respect just on the basis of their title alone or deserves a medal of honor because they supplied some DNA.

 

Donated sperm? Pushed out a baby? I think there is more to being a parent than just that, which is why I said that the only way a child doesn't owe their parents much of anything is if they were raised by wolves. Considering the high rate of infanticide and abortion in the world today, I still think there is a certain debt we all owe our parents if we are alive to type posts on this forum. Any way you look at it, we are alive and well because our parents made sacrifices for us.

 

A child has no choice being brought into the world. They sure as hell didn't ask for it and some of them are not better off for it.

 

Perhaps, but parents do have a choice in raising you or even bringing you into the world to begin with. They deserve something from their children for making those choices. Parents make lots of sacrifices and provisions for their children and they do all of that by choice. Are you trying to say that if someone does things and gives you things, you don't owe them anything for it? Excuse the cliche, but there really is no such thing as a free lunch.

 

I say all of this as a child coming from extremely abusive parents and as a father who wishes to be a better parent than the ones he had. Parents aren't perfect, but we do owe them for what they have done. We are not the ones who are owed by them.They did all the work. We just reaped as much benefit as we could.

[theBrokenMuse]

Donated sperm? Pushed out a baby? I think there is more to being a parent than just that, which is why I said that the only way a child doesn't owe their parents much of anything is if they were raised by wolves. Considering the high rate of infanticide and abortion in the world today, I still think there is a certain debt we all owe our parents if we are alive to type posts on this forum. Any way you look at it, we are alive and well because our parents made sacrifices for us.

 

 

 

Perhaps, but parents do have a choice in raising you or even bringing you into the world to begin with. They deserve something from their children for making those choices. Parents make lots of sacrifices and provisions for their children and they do all of that by choice. Are you trying to say that if someone does things and gives you things, you don't owe them anything for it? Excuse the cliche, but there really is no such thing as a free lunch.

 

I say all of this as a child coming from extremely abusive parents and as a father who wishes to be a better parent than the ones he had. Parents aren't perfect, but we do owe them for what they have done. We are not the ones who are owed by them.They did all the work. We just reaped as much benefit as we could.

 

The OP asked everyone to stop threadjacking with this stuff. Take it to the parenting forum if you want to continue.

[You'reasian]

I've been lurking here for a week now and this place has really given me some solace.

 

I'd like to ask some of you posting vets your take on a really messed up situation involving infedelity. I have my own hunches, but I'd like to see what you guys think.

 

So...the story goes...

 

I'm 33, been married 13 years myself. Hubby and I are great - this one isn't about us. It's about my older brother.

 

So, I have a brother, who is 47. Been married to his high school sweetie (she's 48) for 16 years, they have two beautiful girls together. 13 and 15 years old.

 

Here's where it all goes South-

 

Brother loses his job a few months ago. Has had the same job for about as long as he's been married. Wants his job back, can't get it. He stays at home and mopes - smoking tons of cigs yet doesn't find work. Over a month goes by, he spends most of his time on myspace or wherever just surfing and feeling bad. Poor SIL tries her best to pay bills now that bro isn't bringing home any money (he was the breadwinner). Everyone worries about him, SIL puts him on anti-depressants. (We all figure he is very depressed.)

 

Older daughter begins to suspect something. She looks over her dad's shoulder and sees he's myspacing with a certain woman a lot. She tells mom "I think dad has a girlfriend". Subject gets out, her Dad yells at her and calls her a liar and says she's too young to understand, and that nobody is cheating on anyone and she's mean to put such thoughts in people's heads and is just trying to cause trouble.

 

So, Friday before Christmas rolls around. Bro tells SIL he is going to take off to "find himself". says he's going to get some cheap motel and take a few days to get his act together, then he'd be back Monday to go to her family's for Christmas like usual. Nobody is suprised....in the past long ago when he's had it rough sometimes he would disappear, go on a bender and get drunk, and then he would get his act together. That was a long time ago, but wasn't out of character for him.

 

So he leaves that Friday, kisses SIl goodbye. She even hands him some money so he can make it a few days. After he leaves, the feeling in her gut says something isn't right. Though it was against her better judgement, she guiltily opens up his myspace.

 

The myspace looks clean at first. He deleted everything, but oops...forgot to delete the trash. There she finds tons of letters to him and an old flame (if you can call it that, he used to have sex with her when he was 18 and she was 15). From the emails, it is obvious they've been seeing each other, in more ways than one. There are even pictures of her with roses he sent her and her thanking him for it. In the last letter she sees a note from the OW stating "Are you sure you want to pick me after 16 years of marriage and 2 kids? I'm happy you pick me! Come and get me baby!" and THAT was on the same night he left to "find himself" and "have some alone time" to "get things together".

 

Sad thing is, once the secret got out, even the kids knew (they had their hunches before). The kids found pictures of this OW in full naked glory wishing their dad a "Merry Christmas Baby" on the computer.

 

So, she emails the OW letting her know she knows what is up, and knows her husband is there, and he better contact her asap. OW goes offline immediately. My brother stays gone about 30 hours and then calls. Admits he was with OW. But now says he is leaving SIL and kids for OW. I've talked to him and he is convinced himself he is madly in love. Says things with SIL has been bad for years - can't see how she was suprised. Though admittedly, I was there and stayed all summer at his house with him and my SIL and nothing seemed bad with the relationship then...

 

All this seems very strange. Oh, and the OW doesn't care - she thinks she is madly in love with my brother too. And I really hate to seem judgemental of someone I don't even know - but she looks the part of the stereotypical OW from movies. about 6 years younger than my bro, fake blond hair, more nips and tucks than a quilt, and the worst wal-mart boob job you can imagine. (SIL described it as two cantelopes with wrinkles)

 

Now my bet - my brother got so down about not being able to provide for his family that the attention from another woman got him fooled into the game. Made him feel like a "man" again. Don't get me wrong, I think he really THINKS he's in love but mainly I think his little head is making him believe that. He's been burning a ton of bridges with the SIL and the 2 kids, as well as the rest of the family - but I think when the "magic" of the new relationship wears off he's going to realize he's made a HUGE mistake. He keeps talking about how sex with the OW is great and how awesome she is in the sack. (BUT ISN'T THAT ALWAYS HOW IT IS IN A NEW RELATIONSHIP? What happens when the "new coochie smell" wears off and the mundane rolls in?)

 

He moved in with my elderly dad a few days after getting caught, but seems now he is living with the OW...at least on the weekends. I don't think the OW lets him stay there while she is at work on weekdays (or however - maybe he is pretending to go to work?- either way he usually prefers not to be there during weekday business hours and goes elsewhere)

 

They just started talking in November...and he left his family a few days before Christmas.

 

Maybe I'm crazy, but I think a month or so of talking to someone else is an awful short time to toss 16 years+ out the window.

 

I think he's going to crawl back to my SIL, but she doesn't think so. I think the minute she starts selling their house or files and he knows she's gone he's going to have regrets.

 

What really baffles me, is this is so out of character for my brother. He was always all about his family. And he DESPISED cheaters. Our own father used to serial cheat on our own mom growing up and we really have no respect for our own father to this day. Yet he thinks that his kids will still respect him (at the moment they don't want anything to do with him, naturally) and that their angst towards him will "blow over" with time.

 

So....anyone wanna place your bets? How do you think this one will turn out? Think he's going to live happily ever after with the OW? Think he'll run back? Love to hear the expert opinions on this forum. This place has been wonderful for me, I've been trying to spend a lot of my time offering love and support to the wife and kids my brother left behind....I love them so much and I hate to see them hurting like this, but reading here has really given me insight into what to expect emotionally when these things occur.

 

Sounds like a wild story!

 

Best of luck to you man.

[Tony]

This thread is getting way off topic, as usually does most all threads after ten or so posts. I hope the original poster has gotten some answers, thoughts and ideas from it. So now, it will close.