Is this enough to break the NC rule?

[paperchase]

This is a bit long but I will be very greatful to all those who take the time to read and respond.

 

By way of background: I'm divorced with two young kids and I've been dating a much younger woman for a little over a year. The relationship has been great for the most part, but my mate has been having some problems with me, but mostly with herself. She's a recent college grad who can't find a good job in her field and she accordingly has no money. Her lease is up on her apartment at the end of the month and she doens't have a new place yet. She also has a tough time dealing with the fact that I had a life before her. It ruins her fairytale vision of what her man should be. She also believes that I don't pay her enough attention because of my committment as a father and my demanding job. Finally, she seems to struggle with being a domestic type which she knows is somthing I cherish. Opps, lastly, she thinks I don't view her as an equal. One day she came to an ephipany and decided it just wouldn't work. I did the usual pleading to no avail. I pressed her on her reasons, and it became clear that many of them were not genuine and that the problem was with her.

 

So we created a little space, but then she got a bad case of the flu. She stayed at my place for 2 days, but I saw that she was not trying to get back together. On the second day I decided to go out with my buddy and she went ballistic. Hit me, cursed me, threw things at me, told me she never wanted to talk to me again. Asked how I could do such a thing so fast. She thought I was going to see another woman and I didn't dispel that notion because I felt it was none of her business after dumping me. I told her I'd be back and she didn't have to leave, but as had been the case lately she stormed out. This time I didn't chase. She came back in 20 minutes banging on my door. I didn't answer. She called me 20 times. I ignored her. She text me tons of messages saying she left something in my place and what a terrible person I was. I ignored her.

 

The next day we met and all she wanted to talk about was who I screwed the night before. I refused and said we could talk about our relationship and then I'd be happy to address the sex part. She left again. She sent texts again. I ignored them. Late that night she asked if we could have sex one last time. I ignored her. She sent me a very revealing photo and asked if I wanted to be inside her again. I caved in. We had sex. Then we danced the next night and did it again. The the next morning she left with what she said was a busy schedule. She text me a few times during the day..said she had a great time with me...wish it could always be that way.. but made no offer to spend the that evening at my place. She hung with her girls. I called (idiot, I know) and asked where things were going. She was noncommittal. She didn't know. I told her I had something for her and she said she'd come by to pick it up around noon the next day.

 

She was a no-show and then sent a text an hour later saying: "Hey, what's ur day look like." I told her what my plans were. She said she was packing up her place to prepare for the move and that she'd stop by later to pick up what I had for her. I ignored the text. She sent one a few hours later for confirmation. I ignored that one too. Then I sent the following email and her reply follows. The top email is hers and the bottom one is the one I sent first.

 

My question is whether what she said is enough to break the NC rule? I suspect it's not because she's not saying baby I want to be together, but she is admitting that she was wrong. I need some advice here:

 

 

From: Dumper

To: Dumpee

 

 

Dear XXXXXXXXX,

 

With all that's going on in my life right now, closing this chapter of my life w/ u may just be the most difficult thing to face. I'm here at home trying to pack up all my stuff to move - move where I don't know. As of new year's eve I won't have a place to stay. I have no money. I'm unhappy w/ my entire situation. Then to top it off the man I love more than anything is gone. It's tough.

 

I always thought I was tough girl. I thought I could handle anything; I'd put the weight of the world on my shoulders. Finally, it's all catching up to me and weighing me down. I wish I could just go back in time...for what I don't know. Maybe to change some things, maybe to try and do some things over again, maybe to just be in ur arms again and just feel ur warm kisses all over my body. Maybe I'd go back to last christmas and just freeze time. Maybe I could go back to a saturday morning where I'd wake up in your arms and just repeat that day over and over.

 

I love you XXXX more than anything. I know I love you b/c I think of u and pray for you and do for you more than I do for myself. I want nothing but the best for you. I hate myself for how I've been acting lately. I apologize for hitting you, throwing things, yelling at you, saying all those hurtful words, for turning my back and walking out. I really hate myself! I really hate who I've become. I'm so so so so sorry! I don't think there enough words for me to express just how awful I feel and just how sorry I really am. Apologizing from the bottom of my heart isn't enough. I'm just not who I used to be. I hope and pray you can remember me for the good I brought into your life, and try your hardest to forget the ugly person I turned into. I am truly sorry. I wish things were different. I wish I could change everything, but sadly I can't. What's done is done. I've turned into a horrible person, and I've done some horrible things to u. I am sorry that I couldn't be the woman of your dreams. I tried really hard. Things were wonderful for us. We were on our way to the top. I ****ed up and I'm sorry. My life's circumstances have turned me into a terrible person, and I'm sorry I wasn't strong enough to deal w/ my **** w/o taking it out on u.

 

I definitely hit the jackpot with you. You're handsome, smart, loving, well off, you have such ambition and drive - you're gonna be so freakin successful soon! You are strong, you have a huge heart, you have the cutest lil ways about you. I love your lil toes, I love your soft lips, I love the way our bodies fit together. You were my baby boy, and I can't believe I did all this stuff to you. I'm sorry I'm so messed up that I let all my **** get in the way of such a good thing. I'm sorry XXXXX. Take care! And know that I will always love you, and regret this decision. I am sorry.

 

- XXXXXXX

 

------Original Message------

From: Dumpee

To: Dumper

Sent: Dec 21, 2008 3:43 PM

Subject: untitled

 

Dear XXXXX:

 

I really enjoyed the past two nights with you, but I can't do this anymore. I gave you my all and I'm truly sorry things didn't work out, but the magic is gone and clearly there's nothing I can say or do to recapture it. Since before Thanksgiving I've been telling you how much I loved you and saying all the "right" things, but you haven't said them back. You've sent me mixed signals at best.

 

So I've thought long and hard about things, and I've decided to be alone. The truth is as much as I wanted things to work, our relationship isn't very healthy. I can't be with someone who hits me and throws things at me in anger, verbally abuses me, causes a scene outside my apartment or threatens to break my things just because they think I've been with another woman after they broke it off. I am free to date whomever I choose and, besides, you've got no right to ever act that way.

 

You have also raised a lot of good points. You are right: I have an ex-wife, and kids, and a job and maybe it's better for you to stay away from those responsibilities. They are not going to go away. Plus, you have a lot going on in your life too and staying with me isn't making things easier, despite how much I've tried to be a positive influence. It will be hard to get over you, especially during the holidays, but I think this is the best decision for both of us.

 

Anyway, I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart for all the ways you've helped me. So thanks for everything, XXXXX. I really wish you the best in life and hope you find whatever makes you happy.

 

Love,

XXXXXX

 

________

 

One final point is that a female friend of mine said I should have offered to let her move in with me. She never asked for that though.

[samspade]

paperchase,

 

In brief:

 

1. She broke up with you.

 

2. You handled it like a man and moved on.

 

3. She became angry and violent, but you did not cave (good job).

 

4. She switched from violent to sweetly manipulative. You DID cave, this time...a slip-up. She gained a little ground and then ignored you again, then tried roping you in for a little more.

 

5. You sent a strong, mature email explaining that you are better off alone than with a jealous psycho like her.

 

6. She replied, apologized, and closed with (in my opinion) more manipulative sweetness. I'm sure in some way she is being honest, because you sound like a good guy and I'm sure she regrets losing you, but this woman's track record has more red flags than Tiennamen Square.

 

I would be wary of her trying to rope you in again, only to push you away. I think you handled this situation maturely, your only slip up was falling for the siren song of the booty call (but, whatever, that happens). My advice is to let sleeping dogs lie. As it stands, you know she f'ed up, and acted like a brat, and realizes her mistake. That should be enough for you to move on (you really don't want to be with someone this insane, trust me).

[paperchase]

Thanks samspade for taking the time to read my diatribe. You pretty much hit the nail on the head in terms of the dynamic. Obviously, like most other delusional lovebirds, I wanted a different answer. Everytime my blackberry vibrates, I'm hoping it's a profession of love from her. But I agree, she's just being manipulative right now. If she really wanted me, her letter would have said that. Instead, my reading is that she's sorry for all the hurt she caused me but her decision stands.

 

Anyway, I'm really hoping that she comes back, but does it on my terms. I'm really hoping that she can get some individual therapy to overcome some of the things that stood in our way like her insecurity, jealousy, anger and mood swings. Thanks again for taking the time to respond.

[samspade]

I sympathize for you, but consider your kids for a moment....why would you want them exposed to such a live wire?

 

Stay strong and stay away from her. Yeah, breakups suck, but imagine if she WERE to move in with you: More jealousy every time you go out, more contempt for your attention toward your children, more objects thrown, etc., etc. Not a healthy situation for children, or you.

 

I can't believe her friend suggested you offer to let her move in, by the way. Some people have no shame. You're not running a halfway house. She must think you just fell off the turnip truck.

 

Just remember, she only got sweet and sorry when her violent and belligerent tactics had no effect on you. You showed her you're a man and an adult, and you're not going to stand for her immature b.s. Don't cave in.

[paperchase]

It was a female friend of mine that asked why I hadn't asked her to move in. That friend said there must have been something my ex wanted from me I didn't give her. My kids are important and I thought about that. My ex is pretty good with them, but sometimes she said she just wants me to herself and wishes I could be a regular boyfriend without such a past. She knew all this going in, but suddenly can't deal with it. She's young and has some real fairy tale notions.

 

I see all her flaws and good traits. I choose to see the positives in people and I'm admittedly a hopeless romantic. She was soooo into me for so long and then she suddenly said she woke up one day and realized it wouldn't work. I knew we had problems we had to deal with in order to have long term success, but I had plans to deal with them through counseling and individual therapy for her.

 

I'm going to do my best to stick with NC. It's tough. When I sent my email, it was a committment to NC, but then I thought maybe I closed the door too hard and didn't leave it cracked enough for her to extend an olive branch. She has lots of pride. I read and read and re-read her response and I saw her professing her love, admitting her wrongdoing, apologizing profusely and saying I was the best man ever. But I didn't hear her asking for a second chance or saying she wanted to work things out. I worry that NC on the heels of my email will preclude that. Thoughts anyone?

[confused_2008]

IMO, you didn't leave any opening for her to extend an olive branch, BUT if she really wanted to work things out, that wouldn't stop her. Stick to NC. My guess is she'll break it, but if not, you will eventually move on and be happy anyway.

[paperchase]

Thanks so much confused. You've identified the conundrum which makes NC so hard for me and many others. I feel like I should have replied to her letter because it left me confused. I wonder whether my letter had too much finality. I drafted the below reply which I never sent. It was an attempt to crack the door without sounding weak or like I was asking for her back. Timing is a big issue here because I fear that once her lease is up, given her financial situation, she might move back home to another state with her mom. She's very close with her mom and she's going there for the holidays.

 

Dear XXXX:

 

I'm a little confused by your letter. It sounds like you're acknowledging that you messed up, but at the same time you're saying that nothing can be done. It sounds like you are sorry for hurting me, but you're a different person now and there's no going back. Assuming your letter was intended the way I read it, let me say a few quick things.

 

We both tried. It guess it just wasn't meant to be. But make no mistake: you were the woman of my dreams, and my dreams were BIG. I see all the things you are going through, and a part of me wants to help. Before Thanksgiving, I was planning to ask you to move in with me, and then find us a bigger place. I was also prepared to hold you down financially until you could find a job that made you happy. I believed in us so much that I even inquired about counselling to help you overcome some of your personal issues that kept getting in our way. But as much as I loved being your knight in shining armour and rushing to your rescue, we both must find our own way now.

 

This sucks in so many ways. From my kids who keep asking about you, and I can't keep saying you're on vacation, to the memories I have of all the places we've gone out, quiet moments we've shared, to kissing your forehead and watching you sleep with your eyes open, to holding you when things made you cry, to rushing home every night just to see your smile and feel your warm embrace. Trust me, I have some good memories to hold onto and that doesn't make it any easier. I think about last Christmas and how I planned to make this one even more special. How I planned to spend Christmas eve together and wake up with you and the kids like a happy family. I think about the pretty faces of the children I imagined we would one day have together, and what a beautiful bride you would make at our grand wedding -- much bigger than my first. I pictured you in the cutest red BMW or Mercedes and how fly you'd look as Mrs. XXXX. I could go on and on and on, but enough.

 

At the end of the day, you still have your issues and you still can't stomach mine. Plus, you've said nothing about a desire to work things out. So I took your letter as another goodbye. It's just that now we're both on the same page of a very sad book we never got to finish writing.

 

--XXXXX

[paperchase]

So she's contacted me a few time with nothing meaningful. One text to console me after my football team lost saying that they were still in the playoff hunt. Today she asked if the water main break downtown was affecting my office. Another text. Then five minutes later she wrote: "Ok nevermind. I get the point. Well have a good day, sorry to bug u."

 

This is her personality generally. Her olive branch doesn't extend too far if the gesture isn't reciprocated. I've seen her desperate only twice where she swallowed her pride and went in full pursuit. I wanted to text back and say: "why are you contacting me? please respect my need for space." But then I thought about how much I really do want her to contact me and ask me to be hers again.

 

Having her text me did help in one way. It let me know that she's been thinking about me and that makes ignoring her a little easier. It's only been the longest 2 days of my life. Help!

[samspade]

Stay the course, dude. She's just tossing you bread crumbs. Don't be a fool. Call a buddy and talk to him instead.

[paperchase]

Fair enough, but are bread crumbs a good sign? Is it evidence that NC is working? I know NC is supposed to be about me, but you know what I mean.

[samspade]

No, bread crumbs are bad. To use another analogy, she is playing cat-and-mouse with you. If she knows she "has" you (by which I mean, if she knows you are still pining for her) she will let you go. The minute you scamper away she'll try to catch you again. It has nothing to do with you, my friend. She is doing this to feed her ego ("he still loves me") and/or to know you don't hate her (so she doesn't feel guilty for all the sh*t she's pulled). Don't give her the satisfaction of either.

 

NC only works for YOU - to get over her. It's not a scheme to get her back.

 

Also, paperchase, DO NOT SEND THAT EMAIL. She doesn't deserve to hear that you're the woman of her dreams. And if you tell her that you were planning on taking care of her financially (including letting her move in), she may see an opening she can exploit. I know it sounds cynical to break love down to financial matters, but desperate people will prostitute themselves if they feel the need to. Yes, I am using the P-word - don't take offense - but if she moved in under false pretenses, that's exactly what she would be doing, and you know it. You need a woman who wants to be with you for other reasons...do you see what I am saying here? With that email, YOU are making her a business offer, and letting her know that you are so desperate for her, you're willing to give her carte blanche. And in a way, you come across a little sleazy, too: "I was going to take care of you financially, by the way...doesn't that sweeten the deal?"

 

Delete it.

[paperchase]

ok. I'm back on board. I just got another text:

 

"I understand that ur done w/me. But it really hurts to know ur ignoring me. It's hard for me to sleep @ night w/o u. It's hard for me not to call u a million times a day. I miss what we had. N I hate that u hate me now."

 

Tell me is this enough to break NC? I'm not dense I just need to know how much is enough.

[2sure]

Paperchase,

 

I have read your entire thread and can tell you I completely understand because once upon a time, I was your ex. Really.

 

She is a drama queen clearly. You are astute enough to recognize this and also experienced enough to know that this drama has pros and cons. Pros being that there is nothing higher than a drama queen who is happy and having fun. Its entertaining, an ego feed, and exhilerating so say the least. Cons being the complete opposite also holds true: Perceived slights become insults, a spat becomes a domestic and anytime there is not some action, emotional or otherwise she is bored and creates a problem where there is none. Some attention to your children is great, but she needs to always and consistantly be number one. AND you will be tested.

 

Now, the whole drama queen thing is just a hazard of dating women younger than yourself. I'm not saying you shouldnt!! But uts part of the package. Usually , these same women change after they have a marriage under their belt, grow up and realize the world does not revolve around their feelings. Usually. But not always. We all know women in their 30s, 40s who are still drama queens. Drama Queens without the benefit and exhileration of youth....yuck.

 

Thankfully, i grew out of it. But looking back, I cannot fathom why the men I dated put up with it. Those they didnt, I feel like calling and apologizing.

 

Anyway - YES. She wanted to move in with you CLEARLY. Because she has no where to go and she wants to be taken care of. Exclusively.

 

You can have her back if you want to take care of her.

If that does not interest you right now, you can wait for her to grow up.

This one kind of sounds like she will be the same in ten years. Your risk.

[SRV]

Do not reply, IGNORE, IGNORE, IGNORE.....if she really wanted to be with you she would be knocking your door down and asking for ways to make it better.

[carhill]

Is this enough to break the NC rule?

 

Yes, right about when the sun goes supernova

[samspade]

"I understand that ur done w/me. But it really hurts to know ur ignoring me. It's hard for me to sleep @ night w/o u. It's hard for me not to call u a million times a day. I miss what we had. N I hate that u hate me now."

 

Weasel words. I don't see "I love you and would do anything to be by your side again." I see, "I hate that you hate me" and "I miss what we had."

 

Manipulative. Ignore.

[paperchase]

Thanks so much 2sure. You seem to have a good grasp on my situation. I was once married to a woman who made lots of money. We both did. It was terrible. This time around, I really do want to be the breadwinner. I've gotten old fashioned and believe that relationships work best when you can't quanitfy each partner's contributions monetarily.

 

But yes, she does have drama. She wants to be #1. She's said it plenty of times and it's an issue because she doesn't yet understand that sometimes I have responsibilities that are more important than her latest dramatic need.

 

I do want her back, but on my terms. And I don't think I have the leverage to get those if I'm chasing her for reconcilliation. I'm waiting for her to bang on my door so say that she's willing to do whatever it takes to make us work. Her latest text was followed by: "Well again I'm sorry to have bugged u. I'll go back to being silent." So she's pulling back again. I suspect this will be a cycle and hopefully it will end the way I want.

 

One more thing on taking care of her. She really wants to get a good job. She went to school for TV Production but it's been difficult to break in the field post graduation. She does not just want to be a homemaker, even though she cooks for me, takes my laundry to the cleaners and straightens up around the house. She does these things, but they make her bitter I think because she's never done them for herself.

[paperchase]

samspade, she is being manipulative and I don't hear the magic words either. I think the fact that she's the wrongdoer here and I've gone dark, has left her wanting to gauge how I'm feeling. I've given her no feedback so she's at a loss. 2 days NC might not seem like much, but we were in contact 24/7 as a couple so even 2 days is a dramatic change...a statement if you will. I'm not flinching until I hear something along the lines of what you said. My fear is that when/if I do hear it, it will just be a manipulative ploy to see the cards I'm holding so she can push me away again.

[samspade]

My fear is that when/if I do hear it, it will just be a manipulative ploy to see the cards I'm holding so she can push me away again.

 

That's a legitimate fear. So keep this simple rule in mind: Actions speak louder than words. Just because someone tells you she loves you doesn't mean she means it. Anyway, YOU need this space so you can let your emotions settle without her distracting you with her manipulative b.s.

 

Her latest text was followed by: "Well again I'm sorry to have bugged u. I'll go back to being silent."

 

Let's feed this into the translator and see what spits out: "I can see my attempts at sounding contrite are not working on you. I will threaten you with silence and see if THAT gets you to crack."

[paperchase]

samspade, thanks for putting that text in the translator. I really didn't read it that way, but I'm clearly not thinking straight. everyone here is really helping me a lot. I'm not hearing everything I want to, but what I'm hearing I believe to be pretty insightful.