movingonandon Posted December 23, 2008 Posted December 23, 2008 I don't think a relationship should be predominately about sex neither should it be a challenge or conquest. I think if a relationship is serious, it can occur naturally without any caution or smoothtalking. Absolutely agree, as long as there is plenty of consensual sex in the process.
movingonandon Posted December 23, 2008 Posted December 23, 2008 It's nice to see someone else who's comfortable saying "No" when they're not ready or something appears off. Any guy who lacks sufficient patience, is less interested in you as a person. Good night redant. It's not about patience, it's about refusing to be manipulated. I've gone 6 dates without even attempting to have sex, not because I've "waited", but because that's how things flew naturally. But, if the OPs situation ever happens to me - lot's of making out, sleeping together (sic!) but "noooo, no getting into my panties yet", I won't even pick up my shoes on the way out. It's manipulative, disrespectful, and verifies the worst possible stereotypes of women. So, if that's OPs position fine. But let's not sugar coat is and call it "being ready" and all that crap. It's "I expect to get something in exchange for sex". What an attitude to start a healthy relationship
510 Posted December 23, 2008 Posted December 23, 2008 I simply don't know any guys that will date a woman for a year or two, and have no means to a future with them or any sort of progress in terms of reciprocal emotional development, plus no sex and most importantly WHILE the woman is also dating another guy on the side also for a year and you say there are other men above that too? I'm curious what's in if for all these guys? Don't they have lives? I also don't see how you can eventually fall for any of them when you are spending all this divided time with more than one guy in a year plus!?!? Dating several guys at once I can understand in early stages and when you are trying to find the right one for you, but this is just strange to me. I think you are thinking entirely way to hard about this.. Its life and how I live it. No one seems to have a problem with it. I think its when we make things legalistic we miss out on a lot in life. You are free to ask all of them how they feel about it. Actually they talk about it every now and then, but this is my life and if this is how I chose to live it.. so be it. I have met men that won't go for it and they move on. Smart men, I would do the same if I wanted more from someone as well. I've lost out on some good ones, but apparently it wasn't what I wanted. One of them sees other women and has sex with them. He is not committed to them either and they do not like the friendship he and I have, they see me as a threat and can't understand it either. But again, I don't see what the big deal is. A healthy relationship is one when two people decide together what they want. Not one where two people get involved and then in the middle decide after getting involved its not what the want. Haven't you heard friendships make the best relationships. Yes, its been a while but I was in a very long relationship with someone who was a friend to me first.. romantically but his profession took him away and I wasn't ready to go. So admit that its something YOU can't do. But don't put YOUR views off on everyone else. Something I have never done, if it works for a person leave it alone.. no two relationships are alike
Trialbyfire Posted December 23, 2008 Posted December 23, 2008 It's not about patience, it's about refusing to be manipulated. I've gone 6 dates without even attempting to have sex, not because I've "waited", but because that's how things flew naturally. But, if the OPs situation ever happens to me - lot's of making out, sleeping together (sic!) but "noooo, no getting into my panties yet", I won't even pick up my shoes on the way out. It's manipulative, disrespectful, and verifies the worst possible stereotypes of women. So, if that's OPs position fine. But let's not sugar coat is and call it "being ready" and all that crap. It's "I expect to get something in exchange for sex". What an attitude to start a healthy relationship As usual movingonanon, you put the most cynical spin on something that should be a natural progression. If for some reason the OP isn't comfortable entering into the more physical aspects of the relationship, the great part is that it's her body and life and she can say "NO". If the guy's impatient and decides to walk, this should be okay with her too. Projection is a strange thing. If a man gets his thong in a twist over not getting sex sooner or feeling like he's being manipulated if the woman is willing to only go so far, then perhaps he needs to self-analyze why that is. It's far too easy to blame the other person, isn't it?
movingonandon Posted December 23, 2008 Posted December 23, 2008 As usual movingonanon, you put the most cynical spin on something that should be a natural progression. If for some reason the OP isn't comfortable entering into the more physical aspects of the relationship, the great part is that it's her body and life and she can say "NO". If the guy's impatient and decides to walk, this should be okay with her too. Projection is a strange thing. If a man gets his thong in a twist over not getting sex sooner or feeling like he's being manipulated if the woman is willing to only go so far, then perhaps he needs to self-analyze why that is. It's far too easy to blame the other person, isn't it? The cynicism as usual thing i take as a compliment, though I shouldn't Anyway, the cynicism obscured my point that it is not about "have sex within this specified amount of time or else". It can be any amount of time 1 date - 10 dates - 50 dates, whatever happens to be "natural" for that particular encounter. What ticks me off in posts like the OPs is that she's messing arround with that guy but they don't have sex for no particular reason at all. They're making out all the time, sleep together, he likes her, she likes him (or so she says), but she witholds it per her own little agenda. That's when I begin to call it manipulation. The world does not end if you have sex with somebody and things don't work out in the end. But also, using sex as a leverage does nobody any good. Call me a fundamentalist, but I deeply believe that if a woman genuinely likes a guy, none of these ridiculous calculations will come into play. And if she doesn't like him enough to do the no pants dance when the situation seems approrpiate, she shouldn't be wasting his time. PS For the record, I have not found myself in a situation like this (at least not yet) . But, based on this pervasive view on "waiting", I am paranoid that one day I will be in such a situation, so I'm getting pissed off preemptively
mental_traveller Posted December 23, 2008 Posted December 23, 2008 Well, I would not wait around more than a month to have sex. Most guys want a woman who is keen on them enough to want sex faster than that.
Trialbyfire Posted December 23, 2008 Posted December 23, 2008 The cynicism as usual thing i take as a compliment, though I shouldn't Anyway, the cynicism obscured my point that it is not about "have sex within this specified amount of time or else". It can be any amount of time 1 date - 10 dates - 50 dates, whatever happens to be "natural" for that particular encounter. What ticks me off in posts like the OPs is that she's messing arround with that guy but they don't have sex for no particular reason at all. They're making out all the time, sleep together, he likes her, she likes him (or so she says), but she witholds it per her own little agenda. That's when I begin to call it manipulation. The world does not end if you have sex with somebody and things don't work out in the end. But also, using sex as a leverage does nobody any good. Call me a fundamentalist, but I deeply believe that if a woman genuinely likes a guy, none of these ridiculous calculations will come into play. And if she doesn't like him enough to do the no pants dance when the situation seems approrpiate, she shouldn't be wasting his time. PS For the record, I have not found myself in a situation like this (at least not yet) . But, based on this pervasive view on "waiting", I am paranoid that one day I will be in such a situation, so I'm getting pissed off preemptively Where I've been in the situation of caution, many a time. If it doesn't feel right, I'm not going any further, regardless of personal desire. It's a form of self-protection in that I heavily bond with sex. After I bond, it's very painful to let go. It means I'm in love.
Tomcat33 Posted December 23, 2008 Posted December 23, 2008 I think you are thinking entirely way to hard about this.. Its life and how I live it. No one seems to have a problem with it. I think its when we make things legalistic we miss out on a lot in life. You are free to ask all of them how they feel about it. Actually they talk about it every now and then, but this is my life and if this is how I chose to live it.. so be it. I have met men that won't go for it and they move on. Smart men, I would do the same if I wanted more from someone as well. I've lost out on some good ones, but apparently it wasn't what I wanted. One of them sees other women and has sex with them. He is not committed to them either and they do not like the friendship he and I have, they see me as a threat and can't understand it either. But again, I don't see what the big deal is. A healthy relationship is one when two people decide together what they want. Hey sorry it just blows my mind there are two guys never mind one () but two guys willing to stick around for 2yrs just kissing and casually dating you while you do the same with a bunch of other dudes. It's odd. It actually says a lot for what those guys settle for. Haven't you heard friendships make the best relationships. Yes, its been a while but I was in a very long relationship with someone who was a friend to me first.. romantically but his profession took him away and I wasn't ready to go. Of course I hear that, friendship is one thing kissing and dating a bunch of guys is another. So admit that its something YOU can't do. But don't put YOUR views off on everyone else. Something I have never done, if it works for a person leave it alone.. no two relationships are alike No, no it's something I WOULDN'T do, correction and yeah I'll admit it!!! I don't see the point of devoting all that empty time to more than one dude when my heart and energy doesn't really focus on any of them, that seems really empty and pointless to me, not to mention I would have 0 respect for a guy that sticks around like some lost puppy getting scraps from me for 2yrs while I do the same for some other schmucks. I'd rather devote my time/energy to one great guy than a bunch of nothing guys, because utltimately that is how I would see them 'cause I sincerely AM too busy for that. Also I don't want to be making out and sharing emotions and my time to more than one guy over prolonged periods of time I sincrely dont see the point in that. But that's just me. I am not forcing any views I was just trying to understand your situation. I am genuinely surprised there are men out there that are willing to settle for so little in return that's all. But good for you for pulling if off I suppose.
Tomcat33 Posted December 23, 2008 Posted December 23, 2008 if the OPs situation ever happens to me - lot's of making out, sleeping together (sic!) but "noooo, no getting into my panties yet", I won't even pick up my shoes on the way out. It's manipulative, disrespectful, and verifies the worst possible stereotypes of women. I would have to agree with that point, it is not the holding out of getting intimate that would bother and make a guy feel totally manipulated (granted some guys won't stick around unless there is sex but you can kiss those guys goodbye anyway who cares) it is the "now you get me now you don't" attitude of "I'll do everything but because I have motives up my sleeve". Moreso when it is a woman in her thirties, if you were an 18 yr old ok maybe since you are just starting out in life but a grow woman with plenty sexual experiences and rels. on her belt, no excuse. I can totally understand why a man would feel manipulated when you are doing everything but. As a woman we need to set firm boundaries FOR OURSELVES, you either want to take it slow or you don't. Sleeping with a man in the same bed and fooling around but that is where we stop is NOT taking it slow, it is teasing him and being manipulative.
xoAdrianaox Posted December 23, 2008 Posted December 23, 2008 I don't understand what you guys think is so wrong when a girl has clearly shown she LIKES you but simply refuses to have your PEE PEE in her WEE WEE!!! It's a little something called RESPECTING YOURSELF while respecting the other person as well. Sex is not everything you know? I mean, I personally think...the longer you wait, the more meaningful it is. Haven't you guys ever waited really long to kiss a one particular girl? And when it did finally happen, didn't it feel...AMAZING??? Women don't use this to "manipulate", if a woman ever does this...it's because she REALLY likes you and respects you. If she gives you her "goodies" right away, it's probably not a good sign. She probably does that with every guy and doesn't really care much about you. We're a lot like men actually. For example, if a man really likes a woman...he actually becomes more shy to even make a move on her, am i right?? THUS; unless men only want to use that woman for sexual purposes, there is no reason for them to want to leave a good woman who respects herself.
Tomcat33 Posted December 23, 2008 Posted December 23, 2008 I don't think there is anything wrong with waiting. I wait with every man, not because I have some trick up my sleeve to cast some spell on him and make him fall hard for me so that I can marry him, I wait because I need to get to know a man before I can allow myself to be intimate with him. I need to feel that mental and body connection before I can be fully open with him and that takes time. What I DON'T do is everything BUT until I say so. If I am taking it slow then I am not dry humping him for hours on his couch and fooling around until the poor guy gets blue balls and I get undressed and hop in to be with him rubbing my warm half naked body up against his and making out with him like crazy but when he tries to take it a little further I tell him "no we have to wait I want to take it slow" THAT says to a man you are a total ck'tease. If you are taking it slow what the heck are you doing half naked dry humping a guy in your bed? That's being a complete manipulator and using sex for a reward, ie "you commit to me and I'll open my legs a little more for you." That is totally lame and disrespectful to the man. If you are waiting and want to take it slow as friends first then wait, friends don't sleep in the same bed as you and dry hump you. Sorry.
Trialbyfire Posted December 23, 2008 Posted December 23, 2008 It takes all kinds. Sure, there are women who manipulate using sex just like there are men who do the same. The trick is to be able to tell the difference between someone who has sincere desire, therefore goes part of the way but can't go all the way, and the manipulator. You make it sound like women have no desire or lust, therefore only go partway to manipulate. I personally don't know any women who do this. I do know of many women who won't go all the way in situations of uncertainty. While I've never indulged in oral, slept in the same bed as someone who I'm in a non-sexual relationship with or stripped down with anyone without getting it on, I'm not going to judge someone who has desire to do this. It's not a given that women will put out all the way, same as it's not a given that men aren't able to control themselves. It's also not a given that all women use sex to manipulate with and all men are only after sex, with no softer emotions.
wisebutnotperfect Posted December 23, 2008 Posted December 23, 2008 i would say that if you feel that there is a commitment criteria for having a sexual relationship that it is your prerogative entirely. however the communication needs to be very clear so that there is no one with expectations that are not realistic.
Tomcat33 Posted December 23, 2008 Posted December 23, 2008 Sure, there are women who manipulate using sex.... While I've never indulged in oral, slept in the same bed as someone who I'm in a non-sexual relationship with or stripped down with anyone without getting it on, I'm not going to judge someone who has desire to do this. Ok so don't judge. But I will. I've only known him a month. We have gone out quite a bit, I enjoy his company and many things about him, but then I also feel pressured because he wants me to sleep over with him all the time. I am in my mid thirties and I am looking for someone who wants something serious, someone who is looking to get married. Anyway last night we were making out etc, but I stopped him again and explained to him again that I don't yet want to I don't feel like I know him well enough or trust him enough and am wanting something more that just sex and good times Most men are not "looking to get married" and manipulating him into being with you by being a "you can have this if you give me that" kind of girl is not going to make him marry you anytime sooner. She says she wants to take it slow sexually speaking since she doens't turst him and doesn't really know him very well but she sleeps over in his bed all the time and they have fooled around quite a bit (her words not mine) but feels "pressured" to have sex with him!?! Well if you REALLY don't trust the guy and don't know what he is about nor do you feel it's ok to be intimate yet WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING sleeping in his bed already in LESS than a month? Sorry, but no matter how you slice it the writing is on the wall. She summed it up nicely in the opening post what her true motive is, it's not a trust thing it is "I want a guy who wants marriage" thing, and this is how I think I am going to get it. She is clearly manipulating the guy whether she realizes it or not is a different story. And that's fine you can hold out on sex to get a man to devote more time on you emotionally if you like but she is going about it COMPLETELY wrong, she is just going to end up pizzing him off and chasing him away.
movingonandon Posted December 23, 2008 Posted December 23, 2008 I do know of many women who won't go all the way in situations of uncertainty. Nah, that's no uncertainty. If they're comfortable enough to be half naked in some dude's apartment, they're comfortable enough to go all the way. Moreover, the whole justification with the uncertainty thing is just rephrasing of the "am i getting what i want in exchange for sex" stuff? My current gf could not be more uncertain of my intentions, but this does not stop her from having sex with me (nor i respect her any less because she does.)
Trialbyfire Posted December 23, 2008 Posted December 23, 2008 Nah, that's no uncertainty. If they're comfortable enough to be half naked in some dude's apartment, they're comfortable enough to go all the way. Moreover, the whole justification with the uncertainty thing is just rephrasing of the "am i getting what i want in exchange for sex" stuff? My current gf could not be more uncertain of my intentions, but this does not stop her from having sex with me (nor i respect her any less because she does.) Could you show me where the OP says she's half-naked or how far she's gone? She said that she's slept in the same bad and has gone beyond kissing. Going beyond kissing could be simply touching non-sexual areas. Sleeping in the same bed as someone doesn't have to be the worst case scenario. Perhaps I've missed something in her posts.
Tomcat33 Posted December 23, 2008 Posted December 23, 2008 I think he knows I like sex we fooled around quite a bit so it's not that. Sex is sex it's good It's irrelevant if she's been naked or not she trusts him enough to say the above and to sleep in the same bed with him so clearly she feels a decent level of trust to sleep in the same bed with him and fool around. So let's call a spade a spade.
Trialbyfire Posted December 23, 2008 Posted December 23, 2008 Assumptive TC. I'm wandering off until the OP herself chooses to give some responses based on reality and facts.
Tomcat33 Posted December 23, 2008 Posted December 23, 2008 Pfft I am not making assumptions she said what she said. You'd have to be blind not to see what is going on here.
grogster Posted December 23, 2008 Posted December 23, 2008 This particular dance has played many times out over the ages. The woman witholds sex until she's reasonably assured of commitment. The man wants sex because he wants sex. For the OP, sex is a means. For the man, sex is an end. The OP and the guy do think or emotionally relate differently. The man most likely feels that he's being played. That the OP is leveraging his sexual desire for her into a long term relationship. He feels manipulated and sexually denied. That's a one, two punch that can KO an early relationship. The OP wants a sign of commitment that extends beyond a good orgasm. To trust him, she needs assurance that he loves her for herself and not some means to some carnal end. The guy wouldn't give the assurances she demanded so he bolted. There are many women out there who, at least initially, decouple sex from matrimony. Both acted rationally in light of their respective needs.
Star Gazer Posted December 23, 2008 Posted December 23, 2008 While we don't have ALL the nitty gritty details, from what I've read I'll say this. If I were the OP, I'd fully expect to be called a c*ck tease.
BentSpine Posted December 23, 2008 Posted December 23, 2008 I don't understand what you guys think is so wrong when a girl has clearly shown she LIKES you but simply refuses to have your PEE PEE in her WEE WEE!!! You seem to believe that your value becomes greater the longer you can make the man wait. Sex is not everything you know? Sex becomes everything when I haven't gotten release in 24 hours. Without sex, all other aspects of the relationship fade and become unimportant in comparison. Sex is the reason why I continue to breath, eat and sleep. Without the hope of sex I would probably lie down on the spot and waste away. Put men on an paradise island, but without women, and the men will immediately start planning how to get back to the women, making makeshift rafts if necessary. It's the hope of sex that drives the stranded men. Likewise, it's the lack of hope that is the greatest turn off here. I don't leave if the woman says "No sex" if I still harbour hope that she might feel up to it in another twenty minutes. So each time I hear a No, I'm actually hoping things will be better in just twenty minutes later. It's when a woman says "No sex for X amount of time", regardless of how much effort I put in to make her feel good and comfortable, that I loose hope and would walk away. I mean, I personally think...the longer you wait, the more meaningful it is. The longer I wait, the quicker I'll come therefore not giving enough time for the woman to reach her orgasm. If she gives you her "goodies" right away, it's probably not a good sign. She probably does that with every guy and doesn't really care much about you. I would say it's not the time, it's the connection. When we have built a trust in each other no matter if in hours, days or weeks, I think I would feel that we share something special. Hence I wouldn't feel easily replacable.
Enema Posted December 23, 2008 Posted December 23, 2008 Haven't you guys ever waited really long to kiss a one particular girl? And when it did finally happen, didn't it feel...AMAZING??? Women don't use this to "manipulate", if a woman ever does this...it's because she REALLY likes you and respects you. Eddie Murphy sums it up pretty well. Also this: From 0:46 into this clip. Very relevant: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJyV4qGvsJA&feature=PlayList&p=ACB78C44CBE952A3&index=2
fishtaco Posted December 24, 2008 Posted December 24, 2008 Why is sex so bad? Finding the right man is not as easy as making him wait for sex. Anyway if you don't want sex, it's your choice. No one can tell you when to have sex except you. But 1) don't be under the impression that it somehow adds any value to the relationship like it proves he's a good man or whatever. 2) Don't fool around either. That's like having a nice dinner in front of a hungry man and say psyche! you can't have it. Don't have sex because you don't want to, and not because of some other stupid reason. And I agree with the poster that said you'll make him feel like he's being singled out, since the other men before him didn't have to go through this, but he gets special (negative) treatment. This is partially where the "be a jerk" myth comes from. Put yourself in the guy's shoes. Oh.. so if I acted like those guys I would have gotten it.
xoAdrianaox Posted December 24, 2008 Posted December 24, 2008 Ok but what if the woman wants to wait for marriage? She is a virgin and wants to wait until she gets married??? Is that wrong???????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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