Dexter Morgan Posted December 10, 2008 Posted December 10, 2008 My money is here to. And partly because of Owl's reasoning that the world is smaller. Put together people who have no boundaries and easy access to others...cheating goes up. If there are boundaries, then "easy access to others" shouldn't matter, right?
Owl Posted December 10, 2008 Posted December 10, 2008 Why do you label an FWB situation as cheating? I don't...but absolutely see why it looked like that's what I meant. What I intended by referring to FWB in this context was to point out that this is acceptable behavior NOW...when it wasn't in previous times. It's much easier TO cheat, and to ACCEPT cheating, when you work from the premise that it's ok to boink someone who's no closer to you than a 'friend'. When the distinction between lover and friend becomes very blurred as in this type of situation, it creates an atmosphere that is even more conducive to being unfaithful to someone.
Woggle Posted December 10, 2008 Posted December 10, 2008 People today are more self centered, have less of a sense of accountability and are incapable of a commitment to anything more than instant gratification.
WickedandWeak Posted December 10, 2008 Posted December 10, 2008 Increased freedom and options for women. Don't misunderstand - I am 100% in favor women in the workplace, graduate programs, delaying or foregoing childbearing, etc. At one time, though, women were in the workplace in fewer numbers and in positions that were not always as secure as those of thier male counterparts. As women become an increasingly vital part of the workforce in various industries, they achieve the same level of job security as the men. This increased presence and freedom must surely contribute to the rise in infidelity, particularly since so many As start in the workplace. Further, women today are much more independent socially and financially. This creates more opportinuties not only for them to cheat but for men to cheat with them.
WickedandWeak Posted December 10, 2008 Posted December 10, 2008 Many things may play a role. I merely suggested one.
Woggle Posted December 10, 2008 Posted December 10, 2008 I don't think that more freedom has anything to do with it but the feminist entitlement mentality of some women does play a role. I have been on feminist boards who think that cheating is some act of rebellion against the patriarchy.
WickedandWeak Posted December 10, 2008 Posted December 10, 2008 At least in terms of women who are married and are doing the cheating, there is a lot to be said for options playing a role. Before no-fault divorce, if you were a stay-at-home wife and mother who cheated and got caught, your financial outlook was pretty grim if your H decided on divorce. But today, when women make just as much money as their husbands (and we have no-fault divorce or a modified version in virtually every state), getting caught is not as devastating as it used to be.
Woggle Posted December 10, 2008 Posted December 10, 2008 Women should feel "entitled" to be treated with respect as opposed to how women were treated years ago - the whole "barefoot and pregnant" thing. It shouldn't entitle them to be dishonest and sneaky. Too many do feel that it entitles them to be sneaky though.
jwi71 Posted December 10, 2008 Posted December 10, 2008 Seems perfectly logical. Human beings are inherently selfish. If their sexual needs are being met, they now have more opportunity and fewer stigmas to prevent them from cheating. Maybe not comforting, but the truth isn't always comforting. I thought Geisha's perspective was that humanity is inherently poly-amorous an as such marriage in the typical sense was un-natural and typically doomed to failure. Suggesting many things I would like to think (hope?) are not true - namely impulse control. So if humans cannot control their impulses - I find it disconcerting. No to mention problem resolution skills...
jwi71 Posted December 10, 2008 Posted December 10, 2008 If there are boundaries, then "easy access to others" shouldn't matter, right? Agree. However, with a generation (mine) having an entitlement mentality, no boundaries and lthe willingness to leave the M (an A or divorce) rather than work on it - you get elevated cheating and divorce rates. Not saying it is good or bad, just why I think cheating is up
fral945 Posted December 10, 2008 Posted December 10, 2008 People today are more self centered, have less of a sense of accountability and are incapable of a commitment to anything more than instant gratification. I disagree that people are incapable of commitment, though I do agree we are more self-centered and less accountable. But that should be apparent to anyone. Both men and women are raised nowadays (at least here in America) to be more independent and less dependent on each other. More independence = more concern for your needs and less for those around you. Look at the business world, for example. In our capitalist society, making money and/or a profit is the bottom line and main motivator for every company. The consequence of this is that companies are only as loyal as their options (just like you see in relationships sometimes). Find someone better, cheaper, or faster and dump the loyal employee. Even if they don't end up being as loyal or good in the long term. After all, you can always find someone else. And most companies you go to work with now have clauses where they can terminate you at any time or you can leave at any time. No commitment on their part, no commitment on your part required. The result is that more people hop from job to job and there are fewer loyal employees, as it should be when companies are less committed to their workers. I think you are seeing this same sort of mentality applied to relationships. People (especially women) have more options and are freer to exercise those options in relationships. It's a mixed bag, though overall I think it's probably better to have the options than not to.
Owl Posted December 10, 2008 Posted December 10, 2008 I see it as more of a "me first" problem - today's rise in cheating. An FWB situation is one that is agreed to by both parties and isn't based on cheating or dishonesty. Cheating, on the other hand, requires a lack of character, honesty, and integrity. FWB does not. It simply requires horniness. But...FWB sets the stage for physical intimacy without emotional intimacy. It creates a mindset that boinking someone that you're not sharing a deep emotional committment to is OK. It lessens the value of the deep emotional emotional committments. AND...it creates a situation where you're more likely to continue to associate with people that you've been physically intimate with even after you've gotten into a committment with someone else. In other words...it makes it easy to "fall back" into that old habit of being physically intimate with someone just for comfort when your committed relationship starts to flag a little.
travelgirl Posted December 10, 2008 Posted December 10, 2008 I agree with almost all the points here. I think email, cell phones, texting, internet porn, cybersex, blogging, forums, facebook and more women in the workplace are all valid reasons for the increase in infidelity - it makes it much easier. I also think the internet and smoke breaks in workplaces, allows more fraternizing of co-workers. Before you actually (gasp!) worked and really only left your desk for a lunch break - there wasn't much else to do. Now people can't smoke at their desks so there is a designated place to hang out. The internet allows people to NOT work and surf the net without their family's eyes. Co-workers can email or IM each other privately without worrying about other coworkers disapproving looks or gossip - at least in the beginning. There are more staff parties, happy hours, "get to know one another" focus seminars and so forth within major companies. I also think with both partners working, there are conflicts of schedules and less time spent together. No more 9-5 workday and go home to the wife and kids. Women that stay at home are a dying breed and have mixed feelings on being there because it is lonely. Then there are some women who work that resent they can't stay home with their kids. There are husbands that can't understand that working and taking the majority of the childcare is exhausting for their wives. Their upbringings were different. Divorce is an easy solution now and cheating has been glamorized not only in Hollywood but the internet. No one is held accountable anymore because it is so prevalent.
carhill Posted December 10, 2008 Posted December 10, 2008 This is why more men are cheating as well? Who do you think the women are cheating with? I remember when "cheating" involved love letters and pay phone calls Personally, I don't think it's much different now than during my parent's generation, except that it's talked about more. My dad's W "cheated" on him (and "left" him, with his two daughters) while he was in Italy fighting the Germans 65 years ago. Guess how many other W's did the same thing.....the few males left on the homefront must have been pretty busy
travelgirl Posted December 10, 2008 Posted December 10, 2008 dont be dumb. its the notion that friends are just friends, to which I say, ya right. Sorry Dexter, I don't agree with your friends of the opposite sex can't be friends. I was a tomboy before high school and had more guy friends then caddy girlfriends. My closest friend is a man I have been friends with since kindergarten. I have kept in close touch with him and 2 others guy friends. I consider them all brothers I never had. The thought of kissing any of them is like Lorraine kissing Marty McFly in Back to the Future. I don't talk to them about my innermost feelings but we do talk relationships, sex and problems on a platonic level. I can hang out, watch a football game, drink a few beers and share a few laughs with them. I don't have any girlfriends that are like that. I am not a spa girl and think most girls my age are too into mommyhood or are too superficial. It is a nice break to hang out with my guy friends. My H knew about these friends from the get go and is now friends with them too. We see each other all together, even with their wives (one isn't married yet) and I also still hang out 1 on 1 with them sometimes. What I don't do, is keep it a secret from my husband. If he felt threatened, I would cut back no problem. And since I have been friends with the one guy for 30 years and the other two for 20 years and have never even kissed them let alone have sexual feelings for them, I feel confident that you CAN be friends of the opposite sex.
WickedandWeak Posted December 10, 2008 Posted December 10, 2008 That's why I asked the question. The guy made it sound like it's all WOMEN doing the cheating. That's what you read; it's not what I wrote.
Owl Posted December 10, 2008 Posted December 10, 2008 ...which has absolutely NOTHING to do with being an honest person who can be trusted to keep their word when given. I suspect cheaters also lack integrity in OTHER areas as well. I'm not disputing either of these points. I'm simply stating that a FWB 'attitude' enables an atmosphere that is more conducive to the opportunity of an affair happening than if someone doesn't maintain that FWB viewpoint. If you view physical intimacy as something that is completely and totally casual...you're less likely to view it as something you'd restrict to your committed relationships. You're more likely to become physically intimate outside of your committed relationship if it's something you view as casual, rather than intimate.
carhill Posted December 10, 2008 Posted December 10, 2008 I kiss my best friend's wife in front of him and she buys me tight Levi's at thrift stores. Are we being unfaithful? Come on...it's about intent. If the intent is friendly, supportive and emotional, it's just that. If it's sexual, it's that. Honesty and boundaries define the relationships. There are people we love who aren't our spouses/SO's. I think it's limiting to refrain from expressing that love in honest and appropriate ways. Simply put, it's the stereotypical psychology of a man having to insert his penis into every female who is within arm's reach that is limiting. I don't know if there is a similar stereotype for women but imagine one exists Both are equally disingenuous and insulting to people who have evolved beyond that barbaric mindset. In cultures where male/male affection is appropriate and accepted, I have hugged and kissed men as well. It's not sexual, but a sign of friendliness and affection and appreciation. I've met men who define the stereotype that Dexter is talking about. It is very real to them. They see all males through the eyes of their own libido
LakesideDream Posted December 10, 2008 Posted December 10, 2008 I agree with almost all the points here. I think email, cell phones, texting, internet porn, cybersex, blogging, forums, facebook and more women in the workplace are all valid reasons for the increase in infidelity - it makes it much easier. I also think the internet and smoke breaks in workplaces, allows more fraternizing of co-workers. Before you actually (gasp!) worked and really only left your desk for a lunch break - there wasn't much else to do. Now people can't smoke at their desks so there is a designated place to hang out. The internet allows people to NOT work and surf the net without their family's eyes. Co-workers can email or IM each other privately without worrying about other coworkers disapproving looks or gossip - at least in the beginning. There are more staff parties, happy hours, "get to know one another" focus seminars and so forth within major companies. I also think with both partners working, there are conflicts of schedules and less time spent together. No more 9-5 workday and go home to the wife and kids. Women that stay at home are a dying breed and have mixed feelings on being there because it is lonely. Then there are some women who work that resent they can't stay home with their kids. There are husbands that can't understand that working and taking the majority of the childcare is exhausting for their wives. Their upbringings were different. Divorce is an easy solution now and cheating has been glamorized not only in Hollywood but the internet. No one is held accountable anymore because it is so prevalent. Travelgirl, You are so correct. Believe it or not it was the same 25-30 years ago minus cell phones and the internet. My children were born in 79-80. My ex was a stay at home mom (for the first 8 years, her choice) I worked about 65 hours a week. I was home enough to take part in the day to day stuff in the house. Of course, I didn't do "my share", I didn't know any better, there were no models then of what "correct" behavior for a husband was. My ex had a "support system" that included people she went to school with. They got together 2-4 days a week, more in the summer as one family had a pool. These get togethers offered some unique possibilities and resources. In addition to saving labor and sharing child care responsibilities they also were able to plan activities and share other resources. This group had lots of 80's fun, playing with Pot and Cocain. They also used their time to firm up old friendships and rekindle relationships. As far as I know, they all did. In my ex wife's case the relationship she rekindled and expanded lasted the next 23 years ultimately ending in her leaving to live happily ever after with her "kindling" partner. In this "old mans" opinion it's much to easy to get married, and easier yet to divorce. That is if couples even bother with the formality. Nobody listens to old men though. Hindsight is always 20/20. The problems start at the beginning of relationships. Even second or third marriages. It scares the hell out of me to think about what's coming in my childrens lives, and their childrens yet unborn.
WickedandWeak Posted December 10, 2008 Posted December 10, 2008 For "women" means you're talking about women's increased freedom and options being the reason for the increase in cheating. Say what you mean, maybe? That doesn't mean that women are doing all the cheating. It means that it may help explain the rise in cheating by both sexes - women who are now freer to do it and men who are now around a greater number of women in situations where their spouses are not present. Not to mention that we no longer have a situation where women tend to leave a parent's house for a husband's but rather for their own - thus creating a pool of single women who are in a better position to pull off a relationship with a MM if they so desire.
WickedandWeak Posted December 10, 2008 Posted December 10, 2008 I am lost. What does FWB mean? Friends with benefits.
Owl Posted December 10, 2008 Posted December 10, 2008 I disagree. I had an FWB situation for a time. I'm not a cheater. Enjoying sex for sex' sake and being a sneaky, lying cheat are completely separate, IMO. We'll have to agree to disagree as to whether or not FWB is risky behavior that could contribute to cheating. I'll agree...I completely believe that you're not a cheater, nor am I calling you one.
Lizzie60 Posted December 10, 2008 Posted December 10, 2008 Hum.. I don't think there is more cheating for the men.. they've always cheated.. but I definitely think there is more and more cheating on the women's part.. and I don't see anything wrong.. if it's good for one, it should be good for the other.. Long time ago... most women had the chore of the household.. the kids.. the H... and they were mostly SAHM.., not much education, they didn't have much interaction with the outside world.. they didn't have the opportunities as much... but men did. I do not agree with this: 1) Today, most people get married later than they used to, and only after they've had multiple partners. I don't think this is a reason.. cause IMO it should be the opposite.. if they marry later and had multiple partners.. they should know better what they want.. no? 2) Another temptation arises from the fact that many people in their 20s maintain close, long-lasting friendships with members of the opposite sex. I don't agree with this either.. if the close, long-lasting friendships were there before the actual relationship.. why would that be a cause of infidelity.. these friends were there before the actual partner.. if they wanted something more, they would have had it.. no? Anyway.. I think that monogamy is impossible, always been.. but in those days, women were 'slaves' to their marriage and family.. not anymore.. good gawd..
Marteka Posted December 10, 2008 Posted December 10, 2008 Better brace yourselves. With the recession, it's about to get a whole lot worse. Apparently, a lot of people who were working too hard to remember what their kids looked like (and now don't seem interested in finding out), suddenly have a lot of extra time on their hands. And they aren't spending it on needlework classes! http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/148959c4-c31f-11dd-a5ae-000077b07658.html
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