The Self Proclaimed "Nice Guy"

[Taramere]

What I find the most frustrating about my "nice guy" tendencies and track record is that I have been very successful in other facets of my life, yet the qualities that have contributed to that success have proven to be absolutely useless in trying to find happiness in such fundamental areas as companionship, intimacy, and sex. It's easy to take that frustration and lash out at the opposite sex, but that really doesn't do anyone any good.

 

I feel for you. I think men often have a notion of "the alphamale" that starts from a position of power (ie success in academia and in business)...with all other successes flowing directly from that position of power. "As long as you're an alpha in the boardroom, women will be flocking to you". That's the thinking - but it's not always the reality.

 

In a week, or so, office Christmas parties all over the Western world will start demonstrating this. If they're anything like the parties I've attended. I can't recall how many Christmas parties I've been to where top managers stood close to the bar discussing their clubs and boys' stuff with eachother - while the trainees and guys who worked in the mailroom sat with the women. Chatting them up regardless of individual status, going out clubbing with them afterwards, going home with them....

 

The director might look down on the mailroom assistant because he's of lower professional status (so much so that he has to mix with the women during the Christmas party, rather than be allowed in the big boys' chat. In a sexual and social context, though, the mailroom guy is the aristocrat. He doesn't give a damn about working his way up the corporate ladder. He just wants to have fun and get laid....and he's relaxed in the company of women in a way that men further up the corporate ladder often aren't.

 

But how many stuffed shirt directors will admit that he has the edge on them when it comes to women? Pride forbids it. If they have to consider the matter of his higher success rate with women, they'll often do it in terms that denigrate either the mailguy or the women who like him. They won't admit that they might have anything to learn from him. That would be embarrassing....whereas it isn't embarrassing to buy a book on improving your success rate with women by a commercially successful Love Guru.

 

I bet you if some market stall holder ventured onto this board and presented his views about how to talk to women, he'd be shot down in flames. People would sneer because he wasn't articulate enough or hadn't seen enough of the cut-throat world of big business to be permitted to venture an opinion on life. Men would "AMOG" him with reference to their professions, qualifications and social status in life. Yet the reality would probably be that because that guy spent every day of his life flirting and bantering with female customers, he would be a total natural with women.

 

Edit. Ahaha. Viking, I just caught a glimpse of your post. That's EXACTLY what I mean. Nobody knows how to banter saucily with a woman like a butcher does.

[Viking]

 

Edit. Ahaha. Viking, I just caught a glimpse of your post. That's EXACTLY what I mean. Nobody knows how to banter saucily with a woman like a butcher does.

 

You're right. I don't have to do anything to get the women to come to me. They're there to buy food. How much more harmonious of a relationship can I have? They never shut you down because you have 100% of what they want, and then a little extra for after hours...

 

I observe the women who I find attractive and just flat out talk with them. Find out what they're doing with what they're buying and offer suggestions or ask for advice, depending on what I'm dealing with. They're usually more than willing to sit and chat about this and that. Offering advice to girls who are shopping around the meat department is fun. You have a reason to approach them and you can work on confidence at the same time. While you might not use, "Can I help you find a roast?" in a club, you can still use, "can I help you find my lap?" Its funny, cocky and a bit suggestive while being not too creepy. (I just came up with that, so I haven't used it yet. Its 3:40 AM and I am sick and can't sleep and work at noon)...

 

I look at the guys who have attractive wives/girlfriends and take notes on their attitudes, behavior, dress, how they put themselves together, how they ask for something and basically break them down into sections from head to tow (clean cut hair, shaven/nicely groomed beard, what kind of shirt, jacket, sweater, t-shirt, belt, pants, shoes, how does he walk etc.) This allows me to (going along with PUA terminology) "Style-mog" the guy.

 

By observing those who have what you want, you can begin to develop your own personal style and what fits with your personal being. Don't copy/imitate, create.

[Taramere]

While you might not use, "Can I help you find a roast?" in a club, you can still use, "can I help you find my lap?" Its funny, cocky and a bit suggestive while being not too creepy.

 

"I've got a lovely bit of meat stored away Madam. Been saving it for you. Why not treat yourself?!"

 

It's like plumbers and builders. They spend a lot of time dealing with women. Stopping for cups of tea, biscuits and a gossip with a woman isn't generally beneath their dignity. Or London cabbies. They know how to talk to women too, because they're doing it all the time. I've had some fantastic chats from the back of a taxicab.

 

If women contribute to, say, a message board that deals with how to talk to women, internet experts-on-women will dismiss them with comments about women not knowing what they want. Then they'll carry on talking to eachother about how to talk to women. It's a great example of failing to practice what they preach.

 

This is what amuses me about predominantly male sites that ridicule as "emasculated" men who'll come to a site like this to banter and chat with women. See as lesser beings men who visit a site like this either because they just happen to enjoy talking to women (and are therefore good at it) or because they're taking the opportunity to learn skills that they may be able to carry over into real life. That's when I'm reminded of the stuffed shirt directors standing at the bar talking to eachother while the other guys are getting busy with the women.

[movingonandon]

 

If women contribute to, say, a message board that deals with how to talk to women, internet experts-on-women will dismiss them with comments about women not knowing what they want.

 

hah, well women don't know what they want, but that's why they're fun to talk to .

More precisely, the combined body of advice about what "women want" produced by women themselves is so contradictory, mutually exclusive, and best of all - inconsistent with their actions that yes, for all intents and purposes it is useless.

I'm still listening carefully though , just not for the goal of getting "pointers" on what to do

[Taramere]

hah, well women don't know what they want, but that's why they're fun to talk to .

More precisely, the combined body of advice about what "women want" produced by women themselves is so contradictory, mutually exclusive, and best of all - inconsistent with their actions that yes, for all intents and purposes it is useless.

 

You could say the same of men. People generally want to portray themselves as winners, which means disguising weakness and signs of victimhood. Being a patsy for other people's strategies could fall into the realms of weakness and victimhood. Unless you don't object to games within reason, in which case you're more likely to say "nice strategy. Here's mine."

 

A cheeky neg might be funny one day, and irritating the next. Some people get irate and frustrated about that human unpredictability in what people like and want (though most people want others to be tolerant of their own mood swings). Others are more able to go with the flow, accept that people can be inconsistent - and that getting agitated about it won't change the complex make-up of an individual that results in certain inconsistencies.

 

I get the point about taking what people say they want with a pinch of salt. People will tend to present a list that makes them look healthy and functional. On the other hand, I don't think the average heterosexual man is better placed than a heterosexual woman to pinpoint what makes one man more sexually attractive to women than another.

 

I watched the Pick Up Artist once, while I was at the gym. Within a couple of seconds I'd identified what it was about him that I found attractive. The thing that would make me focus on him rather than Neil Strauss in the highly unlikely event that the two of them attempted to make a play for me. Is it the peacocking? The negging? The long legs? As guys know better than women what inspires female interest....can you tell me what it was about Mystery that I liked, despite myself?

[movingonandon]

You could say the same of men. People generally want to portray themselves as winners, which means disguising weakness and signs of victimhood. Being a patsy for other people's strategies could fall into the realms of weakness and victimhood. Unless you don't object to games within reason, in which case you're more likely to say "nice strategy. Here's mine."

 

A cheeky neg might be funny one day, and irritating the next. Some people get irate and frustrated about that human unpredictability in what people like and want (though most people want others to be tolerant of their own mood swings). Others are more able to go with the flow, accept that people can be inconsistent - and that getting agitated about it won't change the complex make-up of an individual that results in certain inconsistencies.

 

I get the point about taking what people say they want with a pinch of salt. People will tend to present a list that makes them look healthy and functional. On the other hand, I don't think the average heterosexual man is better placed than a heterosexual woman to pinpoint what makes one man more sexually attractive to women than another.

 

I watched the Pick Up Artist once, while I was at the gym. Within a couple of seconds I'd identified what it was about him that I found attractive. The thing that would make me focus on him rather than Neil Strauss in the highly unlikely event that the two of them attempted to make a play for me. Is it the peacocking? The negging? The long legs? As guys know better than women what inspires female interest....can you tell me what it was about Mystery that I liked, despite myself?

 

Um, I've actually never watched the show (though I've heard plenty about the PUA phenomenon) so I can't even visualise the guy, but I get the point. It could have been something completely irrelevant to that list you gave, like his eyes, or whatever (Do tell though, ok?). But, mentioning the PUA cult is relevant here. Whatever it is that you liked, per his preaching, he, at the very least, has taken care of all the common bases of attraction. For example (not to equate this douche with the Great Ones), but when you look at Cary Grant, what do you like? Do you like the tie? the jacket? the pants? the hair? The fast talk? Or just that he's well put together, in the broadest sense. I thought so. But, even he would be affected by a crappy preppy regimental tie (that is too long). He'll still pull it off, but won't necesarrily be quite as irresistable. Or if he called you 3 times after a date...

 

My point is that any elaborate strategy, even if sound, is likely to work only in a very limited number of cases. Too much randomness. That's why the best strategy is no strategy at all, but just being your awesomes self. (Not to be confused with the "just be yourself" crap. If yourself is a tv-watching douchebag, being yourself is not going to get you far with the chicks). But, it means that if you're the silent type, don't pretend to be gregarious, etc.

 

Thus, as far as I'm concerned, I don't even try to guess what "might" work with a girl or what she "would like". Figurativeloy speaking, when i get rejected, it's because I'm bacon, while the girl in question might be a vegetarian , not because I missed the perfect moment for a "neg". (Sure, there are some common sense manners that boys are apparently no longer taught by their moms and dads, hence the prolific "how to" industry, but that's still basic stuff.)

 

In this sense, PUA is useless. It is blatantly obvious and unattractive when men with no character attempt to use the tricks without much self-awareness. But, it probably works just fine when decent guys use them to correct common blunders, or even as shortcuts to address character flaws. On the other hand, the PUA tricks are not really tricks, but merely a rather accurate, though slightly cynical, description of the attraction process. But, simulating the symptoms does not give you the disease . (You need to be geuninely infected (with coolness) to get this right .)

[Cherry Blossom 35]

A man who is comfortable in his own skin is a very sexy thing.

 

Guys, figure out who you are and own it.

[movingonandon]

A man who is comfortable in his own skin is a very sexy thing.

 

Guys, figure out who you are and own it.

 

Whew, I can agree with something a woman says for once .

Hopefully it won't be 20 years until it happens again:laugh:

[Viking]

There's the show the Pick Up Artist which takes somewhat below average guys and teaches them more or less how to correct their old ways to achieve their goals, be it picking up women, being more confident, getting a girlfriend and approaching people.

 

Then there is the book "The Game" by Neil Strauss. Great book, it is a chronicle of his transformation from AFC (Average Frustrated Chump) to the best pick up artist in the community, better than Mystery (the host of the show the Pick Up Artist). It is an interesting read as he is transformed, he talks about the community, the style, the tactics, but its more of a tale of his travels from AFC to PUA. Its an expensive book but a fun read.

 

There are lots of things that you can apply to yourself in the book too.

[Taramere]

Um, I've actually never watched the show (though I've heard plenty about the PUA phenomenon) so I can't even visualise the guy, but I get the point. It could have been something completely irrelevant to that list you gave, like his eyes, or whatever (Do tell though, ok?).

 

http://imgs.sidneyrezende.com/srzd/upload/m/y/mystery.jpg

 

1. He's more physically attractive than Neil Strauss. That, plus his flamboyant, subversive style. At first glance, I'd be curious about his sexuality and drawn to find out whether he was gay or straight.

 

2. Yes, his eyes and the vulnerability in them. If he was dressed like that and had a cold look in his eyes then I'd want to escape ASAP. As it is, the softness in his eyes would make me want to cuddle him and stroke his fuzzy hat as he was reading my tarot cards and performing magic tricks.

 

But in reality he's a PUA - so however real it might look, the vulnerable look in the eyes stops being charming and becomes just another tool in a well publicised box of tricks.

 

when you look at Cary Grant, what do you like? Do you like the tie? the jacket? the pants? the hair? The fast talk?

 

He looks as though he'd be a horse and dog loving man. I could warm to him for that. If it weren't for the fact that he's dead.

 

In this sense, PUA is useless. It is blatantly obvious and unattractive when men with no character attempt to use the tricks without much self-awareness. But, it probably works just fine when decent guys use them to correct common blunders, or even as shortcuts to address character flaws. On the other hand, the PUA tricks are not really tricks, but merely a rather accurate, though slightly cynical, description of the attraction process. But, simulating the symptoms does not give you the disease . (You need to be geuninely infected (with coolness) to get this right .)

 

I think that if a man has genuine difficulty approaching and speaking to women, then some of that stuff has value. Sets a task and gives the individual a feeling that he has been given tools with which he can approach that task in a more focused and effective manner.

 

Like the magic crow feather that Dumbo didn't really need, but that gave him confidence to start flying. I think the mistake is when men get so hooked into the whole PUA thing that it's in danger of swamping their personality. Encouraging them to lose some aspects of themselves (for instance, a certain level of vulnerability). Things that other men might consider unmanly and therefore unattractive to women, but that the right woman for that particular man might have fallen in love with.

[MN randomguy]

There's the show the Pick Up Artist which takes somewhat below average guys and teaches them more or less how to correct their old ways to achieve their goals, be it picking up women, being more confident, getting a girlfriend and approaching people.

 

 

 

Yes, sometimes the show hits a little too close to home. It is informative sometimes. I don't agree with pick-up artists and try to view them as ones with effective tools that they choose to use for evil.

 

However,

 

Did you see the episode early this season where Mystery told the guys that they were going to go on a field trip/challenge to talk to some women. Then, they got to the place expecting something exotic and exciting. It turned out to be a bunch of elderly women at bingo night. Back to your meat counter job. A good thing to realize that the external looks of a woman are not correlated with who she is intellectually and emotionally. In other words, what works on ugly girls works on pretty girls. Having engaging conversation with a customer that you would never have a romantic interest in is not that much different than building report with that hotty that you've been trying to work up the nerve to approach.

[You'reasian]

A man who is comfortable in his own skin is a very sexy thing.

 

Guys, figure out who you are and own it.

 

 

Excellent advice here - whether you are a nice guy or bad boy.