The Self Proclaimed "Nice Guy"

[Taramere]

I agree completely. "Nice guys" exhibit in spades two of the least desirable human traits: resentment and envy. NG's resent women for preferring (presumably less worthy) males than themselves. NG's envy the "real" men that these women desire.

 

Resentment and envy form a toxic brew that when mixed form a Molotov Cocktail of the Heart that often explodes on the women who fail to recognize the NG's inherent superiority.

 

Festering grievances aren't sexy.

 

Also, the weak and envious type of Nice Guy probably hero worships Mr Bad Guy far more than any women do. In some cases, Mr Bad Guy might become successful with women primarily because women sense his status amongst other men and therefore assume he's the alphamale. The hype machine goes into overtime and draws in the usual suspects who always get drawn in by any kind of hype.

 

Bad enough to sit there wondering why a group of men are gushing with a combination of envy and hero worship over the exploits of someone you consider to be an irritating and narcissistic knob-end. Even worse when said men turn to women and say "admit it - that's the kind of man you want. That's the kind of man all women want."

 

Ugh. Ralph. I want Ralph. A grown up version of him, obviously.

[Half-Moon]

I am not saying someone should dress outside of what their style is...but they should bear in mind that appearances do count...despite how many people want to claim they shouldn't. It's the real world, and I say a man can catch the attention of more women with nicer clothes, hair, face, and body groomed, and a good sense of style.

 

I agree with D-Jam. I'll be honest and say that the first thing I look at is appearance. That doesn't make me shallow. It's the first thing I look at, not all that I look at. The fact is there are just too many women out there. I don't have the time to get to know all of them and look into their hearts. So I'll get to know those whos' looks are acceptable to me.

 

So yes, appearance does count, initially.

[grogster]

Also, the weak and envious type of Nice Guy probably hero worships Mr Bad Guy far more than any women do. In some cases, Mr Bad Guy might become successful with women primarily because women sense his status amongst other men and therefore assume he's the alphamale. The hype machine goes into overtime and draws in the usual suspects who always get drawn in by any kind of hype.

 

Bad enough to sit there wondering why a group of men are gushing with a combination of envy and hero worship over the exploits of someone you consider to be an irritating and narcissistic knob-end. Even worse when said men turn to women and say "admit it - that's the kind of man you want. That's the kind of man all women want."

 

Ugh. Ralph. I want Ralph. A grown up version of him, obviously.

 

So Mr. Nice Guy ends up enhancing Mr. Bad Guy's marketability.

 

Thanks guys!

[Taramere]

So Mr. Nice Guy ends up enhancing Mr. Bad Guy's marketability.

 

Thanks guys!

 

Stop hyping yourself up there grogs. You're not a narcissistic knob end. Sorry.

[The Seeker]

D-Jam, you da man.

[Yamaha]

Good explanation, up until the end. We "moan" about them because they are manipulative, and we don't like that.

 

I agree that nice guys are manipulative.

[BlueHarvest]

I agree that nice guys are manipulative.

 

So by that standard of "Nice guys are manipulative" we could then use an arbitrary tautology to come to the disjunction that "bad guys aren't manipulative" right?

 

Wrong. Can we please end this thread? All I've seen so far in the thread are stereotypes and labels that people have put upon each gender and each personality to the point of that the thread will soon devolve into a slam-fest against each other.

[Taramere]

Wrong. Can we please end this thread? All I've seen so far in the thread are stereotypes and labels that people have put upon each gender and each personality to the point of that the thread will soon devolve into a slam-fest against each other.

 

Perhaps you'd like to show us how it's done and start up a groundbreaking thread that will get discussion flowing. Or maybe we could just close the whole site down to prevent any further conflict.

[Cherry Blossom 35]

arbitrary tautology to come to the disjunction

 

Speak English please. This is not a thesis.

 

Saying that nice guys are manipulative does not negate the fact that bad boys can be manipulative, too. One does not cancel out the other.

 

If you do not like the way the thread is going, maybe you shouldn't read it. Just sayin'.

[Tony]

So by that standard of "Nice guys are manipulative" we could then use an arbitrary tautology to come to the disjunction that "bad guys aren't manipulative" right?

 

Wrong. Can we please end this thread? All I've seen so far in the thread are stereotypes and labels that people have put upon each gender and each personality to the point of that the thread will soon devolve into a slam-fest against each other.

 

So what you are asking is that this thread be closed because it's not going your way? Sorry! When there are no personal attacks, no petty bickering and, in this case, there IS some original treatment of the "nice guy" subject which is a MAJOR event there's no chance of ending the discussion.

 

I do suggest that if you are frustrated with the thread you avoid it. There are many unanswered posts and threads on LoveShack that are begging for more advice that you won't run out of places to go in our forums.

 

Thank you for your contributions.

[AlektraClementine]

Look I started this thread not knowing that there were 100 other discussions about it.

 

I read a thread yesterday posted by a guy who was so pissed off about his luck with women. He said nasty things about women and categorized all of us as selfish, shallow b*tches.

 

I don't mean to suggest that every nice guy is like this. My boyfriend is a very nice guy. He's not a door mat either. He was raised right. He respects women. He's been shot down a time or two but he doesn't blame an entire gender for that. I'm talking about the SELF PROCLAIMED nice guy. He's all over the internet saying terrible things about girls because HE can't get a date. He's not nice at all.

 

Here's a thought, if you hate women...you probably won't get any dates. If you hate men, you probably won't get any dates.

[Taramere]

Look I started this thread not knowing that there were 100 other discussions about it.

 

Naturally there are hundreds of discussions about it. The conflict between good and evil won't ever stop being a central theme in some of the best books, films and....internet discussions.

 

I think the matter of "what women want" often gets dragged into something that is more about who people themselves want to be. How they deal with internal conflicts between wanting to be a good, responsible person and wanting to have fun/be more selfish.

 

We all get those conflicts, I'm sure. It's not just men. But perhaps "women prefer jerks" is a way of rationalising a decision to step out of one's usual role and experiment with being a bit more selfish. A bit more boundary testing.

 

Doing that doesn't need to be negative. It doesn't have to be a thing that has to be justified with "women don't appreciate nice men." It could just involve a man saying "this doesn't have anything to do with what other people want or don't want. I want to take a few chances and test out a few roles and behaviours that are out of character for me. Expand my horizons a bit and hopefully learn something new about myself in the process."

[grogster]

I view the "nice guy" schtick as a social mask, a beta-male mating strategy. In effect, the beta guy is announcing to prospective mates, "I'm a worthy mating partner unlike my opportunistic, alpha-male rivals because I won't hit and run."

 

Again, it's the beta-male who most often wears the "nice guy" mask. Why? It works.

 

It's a mating hook of the "you can catch more flies with honey than vinegar" stripe.

[kashmir]

Look I started this thread not knowing that there were 100 other discussions about it.

 

I read a thread yesterday posted by a guy who was so pissed off about his luck with women. He said nasty things about women and categorized all of us as selfish, shallow b*tches.

 

I don't mean to suggest that every nice guy is like this. My boyfriend is a very nice guy. He's not a door mat either. He was raised right. He respects women. He's been shot down a time or two but he doesn't blame an entire gender for that. I'm talking about the SELF PROCLAIMED nice guy. He's all over the internet saying terrible things about girls because HE can't get a date. He's not nice at all.

 

Here's a thought, if you hate women...you probably won't get any dates. If you hate men, you probably won't get any dates.

 

Didn't you say these guys are all over craig's list? Nothing against online dating, but some of the people on craig's list aren't the best around if you know what I mean.

 

I don't hate or blame an entire gender. I'm kind of skeptical about girls my age and the attitudes they have, but I realize not all of them are like that. It's just a matter of finding those ones that aren't bad.

[BlueHarvest]

Speak English please. This is not a thesis.

 

If you do not like the way the thread is going, maybe you shouldn't read it. Just sayin'.

 

How I want to speak is my perogative. If you have a problem with it "maybe you shouldn't read it. Just sayin."

 

So what you are asking is that this thread be closed because it's not going your way? Sorry! When there are no personal attacks, no petty bickering and, in this case, there IS some original treatment of the "nice guy" subject which is a MAJOR event there's no chance of ending the discussion.

 

I do suggest that if you are frustrated with the thread you avoid it. There are many unanswered posts and threads on LoveShack that are begging for more advice that you won't run out of places to go in our forums.

 

Thank you for your contributions.

 

Where did I say it wasn't going my way? So far my only other post in the thread was there to try and get people back on track because the only "discussion" being talked about in the thread was biased viewpoints from jaded individuals.

 

Where do you get off as saying it's original treatment? I've seen the same arguements in at least half a dozen threads, granted they weren't the main topic but that is besides the point.

 

Even the OP said that "I read a thread yesterday posted by a guy who was so pissed off about his luck with women. He said nasty things about women and categorized all of us as selfish, shallow b*tches."

 

I understand that the comment by the person she is referring to isn't right. But that doesn't speak much about her rationalization if the first thing she does after reading such a thread is turn around and make a thread bashing the "self-proclaimed" nice guy, in turn labeling herself as a "self-proclaimed" nice girl by doing so. We are all subjects of emotion, that we can all agree upon. Being irrational isn't going to solve anything though.

 

And about the whole "beta male" thing. Beta males fall into two categories. Prospective alpha males, and de-throned alpha males.

 

My hunch on this whole subject is that the OP's definition of a nice guy is more in line with the "de-throned" alpha male. It has all the charateristics of the alpha male, attitude and confidence, hidden behind the insecurities of the beta-male who was ousted. Once he "gets" a women the alpha-male tendencies return until he is once again "de-throned" by a new beta male somewhere down the line.

 

I guess what it comes down to is humans really haven't even evolved, the looks and the intelligence have evolved...but the core of our very being is still very much as primitive as it ever was.

[Taramere]

Where did I say it wasn't going my way?

 

Aren't you doing it here?

 

So far my only other post in the thread was there to try and get people back on track

 

I view the "nice guy" schtick as a social mask, a beta-male mating strategy. In effect, the beta guy is announcing to prospective mates, "I'm a worthy mating partner unlike my opportunistic, alpha-male rivals because I won't hit and run."

 

Again, it's the beta-male who most often wears the "nice guy" mask. Why? It works.

 

I think it can work on women who've been burned, and who want to meet a kinder, more decent man than the one who burned them. Whoever burns us is then accorded alphamale status purely because they succeeded in hurting a woman. That's where people seem to regard the concepts of "bad guy" and "alphamale" as being interchangeable.

 

Hurt and betrayal usually comes from other people's weaknesses, insecurities and deceptions, rather than from their strength, confidence and resolution....the latter qualities being what I would associate with alphamales.

[berrieh]

I like guys who are actual quality, decent, nice guys.

 

Those guys don't usually whine about how they're "nice guys" and women don't like them.

 

Truly nice guys generally get dates, unless they're trying way out of their league in other ways, looking for unavailable women, or have some sort of other issue going on.

 

Niceness doesn't repel women. Being a self-proclaimed "nice guy" might set off red flags...especially if there's any bitterness involved in the proclamation.

[OpenBook]

My hunch on this whole subject is that the OP's definition of a nice guy is more in line with the "de-throned" alpha male.

 

Oh, there is nothing worse than a "de-throned" alpha male. Once they've been in that Alpha Dog role, they can't comprehend any other way. It's like imprisoning a Masai warrior - they die in jail, because they think it's permanent. (Thank you, Robert Redford.:love:)

[GoodOnPaper]

What I find the most frustrating about my "nice guy" tendencies and track record is that I have been very successful in other facets of my life, yet the qualities that have contributed to that success have proven to be absolutely useless in trying to find happiness in such fundamental areas as companionship, intimacy, and sex. It's easy to take that frustration and lash out at the opposite sex, but that really doesn't do anyone any good.

[MN randomguy]

I view the "nice guy" schtick as a social mask, a beta-male mating strategy. In effect, the beta guy is announcing to prospective mates, "I'm a worthy mating partner unlike my opportunistic, alpha-male rivals because I won't hit and run."

 

Again, it's the beta-male who most often wears the "nice guy" mask. Why? It works.

 

It's a mating hook of the "you can catch more flies with honey than vinegar" stripe.

 

 

It is true that the really burned girl will go for a more submissive guy. I don't think that's what the "I'm a nice guy" line is about.

 

The base problem is telling boys that being a nice kid growing to be a nice guy is all important. He doesn't get the girl he wants, tries to be nicer. It still doesn't work. So, he tries to be nicer. Eventually he get frustrated. But, his friends and family won't say, get contacts, loose some weight, learn to dance, quit tucking your shirt into your underwear, find other interests etc.

 

Its kind of like the girl who thinks that its all about being a good person or being successful financially but still weighs #200. Guys just aren't attracted to you physically. Not that they don't think you're a great person.

[MN randomguy]

What I find the most frustrating about my "nice guy" tendencies and track record is that I have been very successful in other facets of my life, yet the qualities that have contributed to that success have proven to be absolutely useless in trying to find happiness in such fundamental areas as companionship, intimacy, and sex. It's easy to take that frustration and lash out at the opposite sex, but that really doesn't do anyone any good.

 

 

I don't think this is true.

 

A lot of being successful in life is looking at what others need and then being able to provide it.

 

If you want to have a high paying job you might study something in the medical field instead of art history.

 

I some days wish I had a sales job because the skills are so easily transferable to being successful with women. Ever get to know a really good salesman. 9 out of 10 he's also a good with women as well.

 

 

Also wanted to mention this is one of the most educational threads I've read in a while.

[movingonandon]

Ah, this is just another stereotype wheeled out as a whip by women in the battle of the sexes. There's guys that can score with women and guys that can't. Looks and confidence come into play and either you've got that or you haven't, nice is neither here nor there, it just seems to be a descriptor for a guy that can't score with women for whatever reason, and for whatever reason a lot of women like to moan about men like that.

 

My thoughts exactly...

Men with minumum dose of self-awareness solve the "problem" easily and very early on as several excellent posts (all from men...) demonstrated.

Mt own interpretation is even shorter, though completely in agreement with them: Be the best gentleman you can be, don't do anything that you wouldn't otherwise do just to please somebody. Or, even shorter:

Be cool (inspired by the perfect Obama SNL skit just minutes ago; a true gentleman, by the way, this guy)

 

beats me why women have to moan about a pretty unrealistic stereotype. In all seriousness, where do you find these guys? The only time i've seen guys like this was in high school and early college, but most of them find themselves as a part of maturing in general...

[Vertex]

D-Jam, your first post in this thread, in my opinion, warrants its own stickied thread Absolutely spot-on advice.

[MexicanBillBacker]

I'm in quite a strange situation

 

I'm a nice guy

 

If I had a girlfriend I'd never cheat on her and would like her just as she is. I'm really one of the sweetest guys around, I don't look at women as sex objects(like most of the guys my age do, I'm 18) and I respect them.

 

But here's the catch

 

I don't fit the nice guy mold

 

I smoke, I drink, I'm addicted to gambling, I party heavily and there's rarely a weekend that I don't go clubbing or binge drinking(this weekend is an exception because of rivalry weekend in college football and because its ****ing cold)

 

As you guys can see I live with a total disregard for life

 

Right now I'm a senior in HS and this semester I almost flunked out(HS in Mexico is by semester not by year) failing 3 courses and now I have to do summer school

 

 

Cool

[Viking]

I'm in quite a strange situation

 

I'm a nice guy

 

If I had a girlfriend I'd never cheat on her and would like her just as she is. I'm really one of the sweetest guys around, I don't look at women as sex objects(like most of the guys my age do, I'm 18) and I respect them.

 

But here's the catch

 

I don't fit the nice guy mold

 

I smoke, I drink, I'm addicted to gambling, I party heavily and there's rarely a weekend that I don't go clubbing or binge drinking(this weekend is an exception because of rivalry weekend in college football and because its ****ing cold)

 

As you guys can see I live with a total disregard for life

 

Right now I'm a senior in HS and this semester I almost flunked out(HS in Mexico is by semester not by year) failing 3 courses and now I have to do summer school

 

 

Cool

 

^Self declared "nice guy"...:rolleyes::rolleyes:

 

I think that the comment about being a good salesman translates over to being good at talking to women. I work at a seafood and meat counter where all I do is interact with people, and lots of women. It has been really quite an eye opener. I now have a reason to talk to the pretty girls and flirt with them a little without having to risk much. I also have a lot more confidence approaching women in general because of my improved social skills and recognizing cues.

 

I got some girl's number on Thursday. Just thought I'd brag a little...

 

I've gone from being broken up with in July to feeling like I "needed" her back until it was finally called off on Nov. 4th to going out and realizing that I'm having a lot more fun without my ex girlfriend.

 

A lot of nice guys are needy. Don't be needy. Don't take stuff too personally if you get shut down. There are literally a hundred girls in your downtown area that would love for you to go dance with them.