The Self Proclaimed "Nice Guy"

[AlektraClementine]

Another thread got me thinking about this new phenomenon. Tell me if you've seen this before. Now, I am off the market at present but there is one type of guy that I will not date. You see him all over craigslist.

 

This guy is single a lot and always trolling for dates siting his chivalrous and gentlemanly ways. He flirts with as many girls as possible to increase his chances of dating. He complains that he loses tons of dates because shallow women prefer "bad boys" who treat them like sh*t. He always wants to know why women would rather be treated poorly than go out with a nice guy like him. His tone turns very negative and he starts bashing women for this and it becomes very clear that he is jaded and bitter because he is alone.

 

Every once in a while, he'll get a date and turn into Eager Larry. Doting waaaayyy too much and calling on the way home after he's dropped you off before you've even had a chance to take your shoes off and call your girlfirend to gossip. When you start to feel smothered by all the follow up, you become uninterested and then he starts bashing you all over town for being a terrible date and for rejecting the Nice Guy.

 

This type of guy scares me. He shows far more anger tendencies than the Bad Boy and REEKS of insecurity.

 

Sorry - totally random thread.

[D-Jam]

This topic is the usual complaint from women about the so-called "nice guys". I've come to realize there are three types of "nice guys".

 

1) Doormat overly nice little boys who are insecure, no backbone, and yet think if they act like Prince Charming they'll get the girl...when they don't really look or act the part.

 

2) Guys who layer on the niceness on a girl the way #1 does...but he's not as "nice" as he claims. He's the one who's online complaining that women are shallow, and even will give insecure flack/drama to women who reject him.

 

3) The kind of guys I call "decent men". They're not doormats, but they are gentleman...yet too many of them unfortunately are rejected by women maybe because they don't look "above average" enough or aren't living exciting lives. They're decent looking, treat women well, but have a backbone and are generally good people.

 

I chat on the Plentyoffish forums, and I used to chat on Askmen as well.I would see to death the usual myriad of topics where guys bitch and moan about how they are constantly rejected because they're "nice", and how women are shallow and want to be treated like crap, etc, etc, etc.

 

I look at nice guys the way men look at very fat women. They are people who have no backbone to self-improve, think the world should play out like fantasy and everyone accepts everyone for who they are now, and people should look past the qualities they apparently don't have.

 

I used to be an Eager Larry. I used to be the type 1 nice guy as I described. I used to overdo it, worry to death I'd lose her interest, not look more at myself as a person, and thus mess it all up. I've said this over and over, but I'll keep repeating it for all the "nice guys" to learn from.

 

How I went from doormat to desirable...and believe me, things have vastly improved for me:

 

1) SELF-IMPROVEMENT. The biggest problem I've seen with many type 1 and type 2 nice guys is that they never really look at themselves and wonder "am I the kind of guy women want?" They seem to think women want a guido-looking douchebag who will misteat her.

 

NO...but they don't want the fat slob who doesn't groom himself, dresses in sweats all the time, and belches at dinner. They don't want the skinny dorky guy who wears a hawaiian shirt to a hip bar and would ask strange questions that make women cringe.

 

When I was in high school, I was a total nerd. When I got out of high school, I spent some time dressed more "industrial" and then more "urban". It wasn't until I went to Europe that I realized I was totally missing the point. Now I dress more GQ and Details. No big names...but I read up, looked, and learned how to dress more attractive for the ladies...plus it boosts my own confidence. I had a few think I was trying to dress "bad boy", but they are the ones who still think they can get girls without self-improvement.

 

I also hit the gym and made my life about health. You don't have to be in the gym hours every night working to be some chiseled adonis, but face it...if you're not going to give an eye to the very obese woman, why should women then give an eye to your fat arse? Why should women who normally date guys in shape give the skinny dork a chance?

 

Do it for yourself. Look into these things, go into a store...try on some clothes. Find that sexy man in you, rather than think women should accept you for who you are. Notice that logic isn't working.

 

2) SEE PEOPLE FOR WHO THEY ARE, NOT AS YOU WANT THEM TO BE FOR YOU. I had a one night stand with a girl I met at a bar years ago. I walked in a frustrated nice guy, but I got inebriated and acted like an arrogant prick to this woman...and she took me to her place and had sex with me for it. When I woke up the next day, I slithered out and away, but realized that this woman only saw me as attractive when I treated her badly. I wasn't being a confident gentleman, but more just the "bad boy". A jerk.

 

I then started thinking about all the women I had pursued who rejected me, and then started dating a myriad of bad boys, playas, and jerks. I realized that my problem wasn't that I wasn't "bad" enough, but I was choosing the wrong women. I stopped imagining this beautiful fun outgoing girl as my loving woman, but more looked at her realistically. I saw instead some spoiled princess who would give me drama over happiness, and then probably cheat on me.

 

Too many nice guys who complain about women wanting to be treated badly tend to not really look at these women in terms of "what kind of girlfriend would this person really be to me?" Lord knows now I look at women differently. I see pretty girls who are bad boy chasers, insecure women who try to hard to please the wrong men, women who think being treated badly means he's a masculine man...

 

...and I stopped thinking I'm losing, but more happy I didn't end up with that mess. Seriously. Would any of you (men or women) want to be in a RL with some insecure freak who can't handle being loved and treated well? So why complain about those who really want to destroy themselves?

 

3) STOP BEING INSECURE AND WORRYING TOO MUCH ABOUT PLEASING HER. This is the Eager Larry syndrome. This is when you see a grown man sound like an insecure little girl who's freaking out if the cute guy liked her or not. I've seen guys worry to death that maybe they didn't do something right, turned left when maybe they should have turned right, and even go crazy wondering if she'll call back...but eventually call her 10 times trying to reach her...over the course of a few days.

 

This is the part where I tell you that despite self-improvement, looking at women realistically, there will be parts of you that are you...and you shouldn't change. Personality aspects, way you live your life, things you like to do for fun...things that are not faults as much as the qualities that define you. These are the things that any woman wanting to be in your life must accept. You need to realize if they don't accept you for those things, then they are not for you.

 

I like to be a gentleman. I like to open doors, pull chairs, help with coats. I like art and culture. I like my DJ hobby. I like photography. I like to watch movies. I like to cook. Any woman who dates me is going to know this about me...and will accept it, or move on.

 

I also learned through this logic that in my approach, dating ethic, phone calling, emailing, etc...that I am not supposed to feverously go crazy to get her to call me back. I more had to realize that if she's really worth it, then she'll call me back when I leave her a message. She'll say yes to a date offer as opposed to excuses. I learned not to go nuts to try to "get her" but be ready at an instant to laugh and walk away when I see the flaky behavior or signs of rejection.

 

That's power, gentlemen...and you all need to learn to use it. So she gives you her number. Call her 2 days later and leave that message...but then LEAVE HER ALONE. It's now in her hands. If she needs you to call her 100 times before she'll call back, then she's not for you. If she's going to hand you flimsy excuses to keep you as a side option, then she's not for you.

 

Don't sit there pining for her, walk away and find someone else. Look at the bad boys...you think they would pine for any woman? Or run out looking for a quick replacement? Even the #3 types of nice guys know this...and practice it.

 

Dating is give and take...and both sides need to be doing it. If you're only giving and not getting anything in return, walk. If she goes out with you several times, makes out with you, then says "let's just be friends", walk. The more you show that you are about dating and not as some side option or friend whom she'll cry to all the time...the more women will think of you as dating potential.

 

 

Sorry for the length, but this is knowledge I've learned...and it helped. I'm 35 and instead of being rejected left and right, I have a GF who is truly a wonderful woman...and now several other beautiful interesting women who are wishing I was single. I'm not bragging, but more trying to inspire all the nice guys out there to stop complaining and saying the world is unfair, and instead make themselves into desirable men.

 

If women are truly going to reject you for being good men to them, then they're not good women. I don't care how hot they are. They're just damaged goods.

[PrincessPeach]

The bitter nice guy (or nice girl) kind of goes along the lines of thinking "why do all girls have X problem" or that girls won't go out with the nice guys because there is something wrong with girls.

 

The only constant in all these situations is themselves, but they are too ignorant or blind to realize it. Whenever someone thinks there is a problem with everyone (or all women or all men), it more often than not is just a problem with themselves that they are ignoring.

[Taramere]

My latest contribution to the never-ending nice guy debate. As I was cycling along the riverbank today, I mulled over the book Lord of The Flies.

 

I'm a nice guy, but girls don't want nice guys. Bitches. What they want is an.....

 

abusive jerk

 

Tellin' you. It's true. I'm through with being unappreciated Mr Nice Guy

 

Woah there Piggy. You don't think there might be such a thing as a....."balanced guy"? I seem to remember someone wrote a guide on it once...

 

Shut up everyone, and listen to me. Never listen to what a woman tells you she wants. Women don't know what they really want...

 

God, these projected homo-erotic desires are getting old

 

Just admit it, Piggy. You're desperate for Jack to do you, n'est-ce pas?

[LovieDove24]

ITS EASY.

 

Getting dates has nothing to do with being nice or being an *******. Its all about striking the balance. And the right balance comes from the right dose of confidence. Confident people are nice when they need to be and also stand up for things when they have to.

 

If you become an "Eager Larry" lol as the OP referred to it, you absolutely aren't going to get any dates. STOP calling STOP obsessing. That is a HUGE red flag that you have no confidence. You think "Hey maybe I didn't prove myself enough on the date, let me call her 10 times to show her what a great catch I am." No, its not working. Also, if we constantly hear you saying "Nice guys finish last" you aren't getting anywhere either because AGAIN this shows lack of self confidence.

 

STOP focusing on "women only wanting *******s," go home, become well rounded, get some confidence and then come back to us. I'm sorry but if you arent eager, are kind yet confident and know how to approach a girl...you won't stay on the market too long.

[Woggle]

Women will respect a man as much as he respects himself and respect is related to attraction. Plus too many men go to meat markets and expect to meet a quality woman. You don't go to Mcdonalds for a high quality meal yet too many men go after entitled princesses and expect to get something good out of it. Plus many men have the knight in shining armor syndrome which is always a losing bet for any man. If a woman constantly falls for jerks it is of her own doing and you just need to move on.

[Cherry Blossom 35]

D-Jam gives the best advice. Every "nice guy" needs to read this.

 

I went out with one of these fellas not too long ago. I knew after the first date that I wasn't very attracted to him, but he really was very thoughtful and interesting. I thought I would give it a shot, to see if the feelings grew. I went out with him two more times. I realized that as great as a person he seemed to be, I was not attracted to him AT ALL and there was no use continuing. Well, I got an earful from him. He tried to make me feel really bad, and I kind of did feel bad, until I just got mad. I mean, what was I supposed to do? Continue going out with him and cringe when he touched me? I don't think so. It really didn't matter how nice he was. The attraction wasn't there, and that does not make me a shallow person.

[LovieDove24]

I disagree with D-Jam...

 

You DONT have to dress a certain way or be someone you're not!! Believe it or not, that dorky skinny guy in the corner with a Hawaiian shirt WILL attract someone...so long as he is confident that he's "got it."

 

I'm telling you men, you do not have to fit into the GQ stereotype to attract a woman. It has nothing to do with that. There is someone for everyone, you just have to know you're worth it and project that. Puh-lease!

[Woggle]

You can be the biggest dork in the world and if you refuse to be a doormat for a woman life will be much better for you.

[Cherry Blossom 35]

No, the dorky skinny guy needs to leave the Hawaiian shirt at home, already!

 

Hawaiian shirts should only be worn on cruises, if even then.

[PrincessPeach]

No, the dorky skinny guy needs to leave the Hawaiian shirt at home, already!

 

Hawaiian shirts should only be worn on cruises, if even then.

 

Also seem to be worn by older men a lot. LOL!

[D-Jam]

I disagree with D-Jam...

 

You DONT have to dress a certain way or be someone you're not!! Believe it or not, that dorky skinny guy in the corner with a Hawaiian shirt WILL attract someone...so long as he is confident that he's "got it."

 

I'm telling you men, you do not have to fit into the GQ stereotype to attract a woman. It has nothing to do with that. There is someone for everyone, you just have to know you're worth it and project that. Puh-lease!

It isn't about changing who you are...but more putting your best foot forward.

 

It's the old thing I mention where you have two women in the grocery store...both wishing they could find men. One is in sweats, hair pulled into a ponytail, and never showing a smile or anything to men. The other is in the fitted jeans, nice top, and sending smiles to cute guys. Who do you think will have more success?

 

I am not saying someone should dress outside of what their style is...but they should bear in mind that appearances do count...despite how many people want to claim they shouldn't. It's the real world, and I say a man can catch the attention of more women with nicer clothes, hair, face, and body groomed, and a good sense of style.

 

Even when I've seen the Hawaiian shirt guy who is confident and the life of the party, he still wears the outfit to a sense of style that works for him.

 

It's not about being GQ...it's about appearing and carrying yourself as YOU...but in a look and feel that will attract women.

[grogster]

The "nice guy" schtick is yet another tired strategy men use to get laid. Nice guys don't care if they finish last, all they want to do is finish.

 

That's why I always roll my eyes when I see self-procliamed nice guys whine here that women aren't attracted to them. What's to like? Whiny self-absorption is a turn-off.

 

So ladies, your wariness with nice guys is on the money. Avoid these predatory wimps like the plague.

[kashmir]

True nice guys are humble and don't refer to themselves as nice guys.

 

Nothing wrong with being nice. If I was nicer my success with women would probably improve.

 

I get the feeling guys think they either need to be one of the extremes, either a guy who always is there to help women and treat them special or a guy who treats girls like crap and full of himself. You don't need to be that d-bag at parties who's always wrapping his arms around girls and running his mouth about how awesome he is. Some girls like that guy, but the ones that have any substance usually don't. As long as you just get out of that silent corner and view yourself as being on the same level as everyone else (as opposed to being lower and feeling you need to impress someone), a guy will do fine. Doing nice things for girls is cool. As I said, I would probably improve a lot if I showed a little more liking to girls. You just need let them know that you're not going out of your way for them unless they're willing to do the same.

[CommitmentPhobe]

Ah, this is just another stereotype wheeled out as a whip by women in the battle of the sexes. There's guys that can score with women and guys that can't. Looks and confidence come into play and either you've got that or you haven't, nice is neither here nor there, it just seems to be a descriptor for a guy that can't score with women for whatever reason, and for whatever reason a lot of women like to moan about men like that.

[D-Jam]

Ah, this is just another stereotype wheeled out as a whip by women in the battle of the sexes. There's guys that can score with women and guys that can't. Looks and confidence come into play and either you've got that or you haven't, nice is neither here nor there, it just seems to be a descriptor for a guy that can't score with women for whatever reason, and for whatever reason a lot of women like to moan about men like that.

+1 I agree.

[Cherry Blossom 35]

Ah, this is just another stereotype wheeled out as a whip by women in the battle of the sexes. There's guys that can score with women and guys that can't. Looks and confidence come into play and either you've got that or you haven't, nice is neither here nor there, it just seems to be a descriptor for a guy that can't score with women for whatever reason, and for whatever reason a lot of women like to moan about men like that.

 

 

Good explanation, up until the end. We "moan" about them because they are manipulative, and we don't like that.

[Taramere]

nice is neither here nor there, it just seems to be a descriptor for a guy that can't score with women for whatever reason, and for whatever reason a lot of women like to moan about men like that.

 

Because that whole "failure with women" thing is easily associated with creepiness. When you read about a serial killer or sex offender, do you picture a happy, confident guy who clicks easily and well with women? Maybe. Psychopaths can be quite charming after all - but I think people tend more to think of someone who's filled with misogyny and resentment towards women because he feels rejected by them.

 

I agree with kashmir that truly nice guys don't refer to themselves as "nice guys". They tend to talk more about what and who they try to be. They're honest with themselves. Have good levels of self awareness. I referred to Lord of The Flies because it explores civilisation versus savagery. Ralph is civilisation. Jack is barbarism. Most people are involved in a regular struggle between the two - going from one side to the other (as even Ralph and Jack do at times) Taken from Spark Notes and therefore more concise than I could be...

 

In the earlier parts of the novel, Ralph is unable to understand why the other boys would give in to base instincts of bloodlust and barbarism....As the novel progresses, however, Ralph, like Simon, comes to understand that savagery exists within all the boys. Ralph remains determined not to let this savagery -overwhelm him, and only briefly does he consider joining Jack's tribe in order to save himself. When Ralph hunts a boar for the first time, however, he experiences the exhilaration and thrill of bloodlust and violence. When he attends Jack's feast, he is swept away by the frenzy, dances on the edge of the group, and participates in the killing of Simon. This firsthand knowledge of the evil that exists within him, as within all human beings, is tragic for Ralph, and it plunges him into listless despair for a time. But this knowledge also enables him to cast down the Lord of the Flies at the end of the novel. Ralph's story ends semi-tragically: although he is rescued and returned to civilization, when he sees the naval officer, he weeps with the burden of his new knowledge about the human capacity for evil.

 

Piggy sides with Ralph from pretty much the start of the novel - but is that through morality or through lack of options? Is it because the mob would never accept him whereas Ralph (because he's committed to trying to be decent, fair and kind) does accept him?

 

Your Internet Trainee Lothario who talks about "I used to be a Nice Guy, then I woke up"....who refers to "scoring" and calls women "targets". He's like a grown up Piggy who lost weight, got contact lenses and joined Jack's group of savages with whoops of delight and relief. The joy of finally being accepted.

 

Ralph's the guy who is committed to decency. Who might make mistakes and might not always behave like the greatest of human beings...but he's honest with himself and he takes responsibility for who he is and what he does. And for changing it, if he doesn't like it. You can trust him because he has options - but despite having options he still tries hard to do the right thing. The Nice Guy mimics that behaviour - but does it come from genuinely wanting to be a good person, or does it stem from a lack of options to be anything else?

[CommitmentPhobe]

Because that whole "failure with women" thing is easily associated with creepiness. When you read about a serial killer or sex offender, do you picture a happy, confident guy who clicks easily and well with women?

 

Like Ted Bundy?

[Taramere]

Like Ted Bundy?

 

 

Looking at expert profilers' idea of a "typical" serial killer

 

http://www.uplink.com.au/lawlibrary/Documents/Docs/Doc5.html

 

Many traits that seem to be universal in all these serial killers, though in varied amounts, include...a feeling of resentment towards society brought on by their own failings, sexual frustrations, an inability to be social or socially accepted....isolation

 

I'm not suggesting that every self proclaiming Nice Guy out there is busy sharpening knives and looking out freezer bags. But what I'm saying is that the "I'm a nice person" claim is often sprinkled amongst confessions of failure or feelings of rejection and injustice. It might be unfair. It might well be....but life can be unfair to all of us. We're all subject to other people's assumptions and judgements. Most of us also spend a fair bit of time making assumptions and judgements about other people.

 

Becoming someone who nice people respect and like - that's probably a better goal than "No more Mr Nice Guy" crap that seems to aim primarily for acceptance and admiration from the more maladjusted members of society.

[kashmir]

Like Ted Bundy?

 

I was going to say the exact same thing, but Ted Bundy was more of a rarity.

 

Then again, women loved Charles Manson, enough that they would kill for him.

[CommitmentPhobe]

I was going to say the exact same thing, but Ted Bundy was more of a rarity.

 

Then again, women loved Charles Manson, enough that they would kill for him.

 

Well serial killers aren't really common anyway.

 

This whole no more mr nice guy thing is because women shrug them off, it's not surprising that they decide they need to do something different, especially when message after message is don't be a nice guy nowadays. Blame the interbet for spreading ****e.

 

Being a bad boy is a bit like being a bank robber, you might get away with it for a while but you just end up broke and f8cked eventually.

[AlektraClementine]

Whoa.. hold up. Serial Killers?

 

That's not really what I'm going for here. And no it is not a stereotype invented by women. It's real. it's out there. Men who can't get laid and get very mean about it and bash women for it all the while proclaiming what a nice guy he is. Bashing isn't nice.

 

This is somewhat similar to the Female out there that spends all her time bashing men for being bastards and sexists, etc. 9 times out of 10 she's not getting laid.

 

Perhaps I shouldn't have made this thread gender specific. Let's try again.

 

People who can't get laid or even asked out on a date who then blame the entire opposite sex for their bad luck are annoying.

 

 

BTW - Ted Bundy had no trouble getting laid. Jeffrey Dahmer had no trouble getting laid.

[BlueHarvest]

Let me throw this situation out there to cook all your noodles (in your head).

 

How is it that you can refer to the guy who has trouble conforming to societies eccentricies as the "nice-guy syndrome (read entire thread before this), and a douchebag wife-beater is the "bad-boy".

 

The guy who posted 2nd in the thread said that the confident guy is not going to conform to societies norms. He'll do what he wants and if the woman doesn't accept him for what he is then she isn't worth it. WRONG There has to be some changing in a relationship. Otherwise people would stay single forever, there has to be some compromise.

 

How is it the wife-beater is considered bad? I don't think he's bad...I think he's a ****ing coward. Only a coward would hit a woman. Oh wait, there I go...guess that makes me a nice guy eh?

 

Uh oh. Since I'm the nice guy I guess that turns me from being a good catch into "I wonder if he'll put me in a well and force me to put lotion on my skin or I get the hose again."

 

The entire thread is full of double standards and contradictions. Instead of relying on these ****ty lables you all have imprinted in your minds how about just date for fun. It should be fun in the first place. If things click then continue on. You know what? It's OK to worry if you did something wrong on a date, that's called being self concious, but not to the degree where you call a person 10 times 2 minutes after you see them. That's called Borderline Personality Disorder.

 

You know what? It's OK to be confident and not worry about what you did on a date, but it's not ok to go out 2 days after and date another girl just because the first didn't call. Maybe she got busy. This is the real world and the world doesn't revolve around you, people have bills (jobs), families, and other friends in their lives. As well as other activities.

 

As one person said correctly though, it's all about balance. One might say that by being on this very site all of us are the "eager type". Because if we weren't, we wouldn't be worrying and asking questions of other people for advice would we?

 

See how that stereotype can turn around and bite you in the ass?

[grogster]

Looking at expert profilers' idea of a "typical" serial killer

 

http://www.uplink.com.au/lawlibrary/Documents/Docs/Doc5.html

 

 

 

I'm not suggesting that every self proclaiming Nice Guy out there is busy sharpening knives and looking out freezer bags. But what I'm saying is that the "I'm a nice person" claim is often sprinkled amongst confessions of failure or feelings of rejection and injustice. It might be unfair. It might well be....but life can be unfair to all of us. We're all subject to other people's assumptions and judgements. Most of us also spend a fair bit of time making assumptions and judgements about other people.

 

Becoming someone who nice people respect and like - that's probably a better goal than "No more Mr Nice Guy" crap that seems to aim primarily for acceptance and admiration from the more maladjusted members of society.

 

I agree completely. "Nice guys" exhibit in spades two of the least desirable human traits: resentment and envy. NG's resent women for preferring (presumably less worthy) males than themselves. NG's envy the "real" men that these women desire.

 

Resentment and envy form a toxic brew that when mixed form a Molotov Cocktail of the Heart that often explodes on the women who fail to recognize the NG's inherent superiority.

 

Festering grievances aren't sexy.