berrieh Posted December 5, 2008 Posted December 5, 2008 Uh, how quickly does this girl want to push someone into exclusivity if that is true, because Steel said they have been seeing each other for only a couple weeks. Geez, lets have a little courtship. And courtship isn't possible or pleasant when the person one is trying to get to know wants to get to know someone else too. So she should talk to him, not try to make him jealous. Because a guy with any backbone and self-respect won't want someone that is seeing someone else at the same time, or is considering seeing someone else. The huh? These two thoughts are at odds. First you say it's too fast for exclusivity, then you say no self-respecting man would want a girl seeing someone else at the same time... *Head hurts* I don't know if this is a double standard (men can date others, but no girl can) or if it's just about her admitting she was dating others. The assumption, of course, would be that, without exclusivity, everyone involved was potentially seeing other people. So, any guy that doesn't ask for an exclusive relationship should be willing to date someone who is seeing someone else. I agree, of course, that the way the girl brought it up was sloppy. I am assuming she's young. If not, she's certainly not savvy yet. I understand where you are coming from, but again, this relationship was a little too new for her to be trying to make him jealous with another man in the mix. In that case, he should have dumped her. Clearly it wasn't too new for it to affect him. Also, if it wasn't new -- if they were exclusive -- the point would be moot. I think the "trying to make him jealous" move is wildly inappropriate in already-exclusive relationships since the whole point is to show the purpose of exclusivity to the man, not to be an *******. If you're already exclusive, it's not just game playing, it's being a manipulative bitch...and also sort of cheating. So, I don't understand how you think exclusivity and newness play into any of this... Again, her move is not one I would make, from a pure strategic POV. But I don't think it's anymore playing games than the OP is.
berrieh Posted December 5, 2008 Posted December 5, 2008 What is wrong with telling her to make a decision? SHE is the one that needs to decide what she wants, not him. SHE is the one that has someone on the other side she is considering. Its not even his decision to make. He hasn't said that he wants to be with her or offered her assurances he isn't seeing other women either. They are in exactly the same boat, except she has presented the fact that other men are interested in her. That is the only difference. Well, that, and he's acting like she has some grand decision to make without offering her anything in return for "choosing" him.
Trialbyfire Posted December 5, 2008 Posted December 5, 2008 Dexter, bottom-line, a guy is going to get further with a woman if he shows he's the man. Gain the upperhand with one of the things men are good at, which is being direct. A woman pulls games. Shut her down. Get her to tell him how she really feels. No excuses, twisting or faking. How he does that is that he blatantly tells her he likes her but doesn't want to play any games. If she's not gaming and is really confused, it's time to shut her down again by stating his boundaries. No multi-dating. Sayonara.
Author Steelrain21 Posted December 5, 2008 Author Posted December 5, 2008 Dexter, bottom-line, a guy is going to get further with a woman if he shows he's the man. Gain the upperhand with one of the things men are good at, which is being direct. A woman pulls games. Shut her down. Get her to tell him how she really feels. No excuses, twisting or faking. How he does that is that he blatantly tells her he likes her but doesn't want to play any games. If she's not gaming and is really confused, it's time to shut her down again by stating his boundaries. No multi-dating. Sayonara. I felt like I was being pretty direct with my email I sent, how wasn't I? I didn't know if she was afraid of if I would commit to her or not like some of you think. Well I addressed that by saying that if she likes me and has concerns with anything that she can talk to me about it. I also addressed the alternative by saying that if she really is confused then I'm fine if she doesn't choose me. I told her I liked her and wanted things to keep going though, so she knows how I feel. She's been telling me all this time that she wants to take time to figure things out. I'm letting her make her choice and I told her to come back when she's ready to talk. I don't understand the criticism that I'm being selfish about that part.
andle Posted December 5, 2008 Posted December 5, 2008 She's ... spent the night a few times... [Then]... she tells me that there's another guy persuing her. She said she feels bad because she really does like me... She's setting you up to become an emotional hostage, to use you as a means to her own ends. Why create the unnecessary drama of a contest for her affection, shifting your position from someone special to just another competitor? And that 'really bad ex' (you have only her say-so to go by?) might actually be just another competitor, like you. I think you did good in dealing with her. My two cents is to move on.
Author Steelrain21 Posted December 5, 2008 Author Posted December 5, 2008 Ok so we talked a little tonight. I told her that we could talk about things a little if she wanted. So we talked "I think we're going too fast. i've never dated an actually nice guy before so i'm really cautious about hurting you I think we would work out great but i get along really well with that other guy too. I like you more but if i'm not 100% there for you, I don't wanna jump into anything." I asked her how she felt we were moving too fast and she said it was the sex and that she didn't want to have just a physical thing. I said I felt the same way, I wanted more than a physical thing with us. Then she said "But I still can't test the waters with other people." I asked if she was saying that she wanted to see other people and she said yeah. She said that this whole thing would be a lot easier if she could say that she never wanted things to work with us but she can't let herself get close because she doesn't know what she wants. I'm kind of confused what to do with this girl now. Like I said before, it'd be cool if things could work out but she doesn't seem too into anything like that right now.
carhill Posted December 5, 2008 Posted December 5, 2008 You know what to do. It's been repeated over and over here. Please understand there are years of social conditioning going on here. She's not some ogre. She's going to be very convincing because that's how women are. It all sounds very reasonable. It is. It's just not exactly what you want right now. You had sex essentially right away. She's "confused". Now it appears you are confused as well. Do you really see this going anywhere, seriously? Next time, learn from this and qualify your potentials better and wait a bit longer to have sex with them. Worth a try, right?
kdark Posted December 5, 2008 Posted December 5, 2008 Steelrain, I don't understand all of the criticism that has been thrown your way either. From my understanding, you like the girl, she is confused, brought another guy into the picture, asked if you were a fighter, then over the course of the next few days, you let her know that you wanted her to make a decision who she wanted to be with, and figure herself out. All this talk by Stargazer and TBF about Steelrain playing games I just don't see. Like RecordProducer already said, he has been very straightforward in how he has handled this whole situation. What he said "get back to me if you ever make up your mind and i'll tell you how i feel at that time", I got that the OP was letting the girl know that he wasn't going to hold his breath waiting for her, which is a legitimate feeling to feel when she is acting like this. Steelrain has said numerous times that she can talk to him about how she's feeling about anything with this whole situation multiple times. What more can you ask from him? He's giving her space to decide, not pressuring her at all, I see no games with how he is handling this, and in fact is showing what good guy he is by not getting angry when she tries to play games with him, and handles that in a cool, calm, and direct manner. And the whole "exclusive" thing all hinges on whether or not the OP is the type to date multiple people at once, which doesn't seem the case since he is asking her to decide between him and the other guy before going any further with her. Doesn't seem like she is the type either, since she is having this hard of a time deciding when she hardly even knows either of them it seems. I know a lot of people, myself included, who absolutely CANNOT date multiple people. So much so that it makes me sick to even think about. These are the kind of people who don't have to ask for exclusivity when dating someone, it is just assumed from the get-go. I remember a girl I work with told me that she forced all her past boyfriends to ask her to be her girlfriend before she would be exclusive. I was dumbfounded. In all my relationships it was implied from the emotional bond, the amount of committment we had for each other, and the amazing sex that we were having that we were dating exclusively. No words spoken about it, no secret snooping around, we just knew it. And I wouldn't have it any other way. I can't even see it happening any other way. My relationships are initiated based on feelings, passion, and honesty. Not a juggling act of disposable dates all the while looking for the one that shines slightly more than the rest. When I have my sights on a woman, she is all I think about.
berrieh Posted December 5, 2008 Posted December 5, 2008 Ok so we talked a little tonight. I told her that we could talk about things a little if she wanted. So we talked "I think we're going too fast. i've never dated an actually nice guy before so i'm really cautious about hurting you I think we would work out great but i get along really well with that other guy too. I like you more but if i'm not 100% there for you, I don't wanna jump into anything." I asked her how she felt we were moving too fast and she said it was the sex and that she didn't want to have just a physical thing. I said I felt the same way, I wanted more than a physical thing with us. Then she said "But I still can't test the waters with other people." I asked if she was saying that she wanted to see other people and she said yeah. She said that this whole thing would be a lot easier if she could say that she never wanted things to work with us but she can't let herself get close because she doesn't know what she wants. I'm kind of confused what to do with this girl now. Like I said before, it'd be cool if things could work out but she doesn't seem too into anything like that right now. It's good that you were able to talk things out. Approaching things directly (talking to someone, not at them) is always the best way. I think all of this has spun her just as dizzy as you. Now that you've clarified things, I'd leave it alone for a bit.
Stockalone Posted December 5, 2008 Posted December 5, 2008 I'm kind of confused what to do with this girl now. Like I said before, it'd be cool if things could work out but she doesn't seem too into anything like that right now. TBF has already outlined your options: Okay, let's lay this out in another way. Steelrain can either: Walk.Get a definitive answer from her by approaching it in a straight-forward, mature fashion. Cut through the bull.Play into the game. What do you really want Steelrain? And if I am not mistaken, you haven't replied to the questions asking whether or not you are dating other women. Then she said "But I still can't test the waters with other people." I asked if she was saying that she wanted to see other people and she said yeah. She said that this whole thing would be a lot easier if she could say that she never wanted things to work with us but she can't let herself get close because she doesn't know what she wants. Bottom line is, she wants to date the other guy and anyone else that comes along and catches some of her interest. If you want her to only date you, don't just hint at it, come straight out and say it. If she is confused (I'm not sure that I believe that), you can't encourage her indecisiveness. Assuming that you only want to date her and that you don't want her to date other men, you might think about being more in charge. I believe that your intent has been clear, but maybe the delivery is wrong. Most of the women think so, then there is probably something to it. If you don't want her to see other men, you can't ask her if she wants to date other men. That is encouraging her to keep doing what she is doing. If she is the one who can decide what and when she wants it, I don't see her behaviour changing. Because she wants to date the other guy, keeping her options open. Instead, you need to tell her that she can't date other men if she wants you. Tell her that you are convinced that your relationship has the potential for more than just a physical fling, but that this potential can only be reached if you date exclusively, without the distraction from dating other people. So far, you have been telling her that she can take her time to make up her mind and then come talk to you. That is too passive and doesn't seem to work. Maybe think about trying the active, more in-charge part. She is unable or unwilling to make a decision, so you take the lead. Take out the caveman club and draw a line in the sand. Tell her exactly what you want, what's in it for her and what she has to do to get that right now. Take the lead. If she can't or doesn't want to follow, then it's time to walk away.
Dexter Morgan Posted December 5, 2008 Posted December 5, 2008 He's not a victim. He's playing into the game, just as much as she is. How? by asking her to make up her mind? I don't think so.
Dexter Morgan Posted December 5, 2008 Posted December 5, 2008 The huh? These two thoughts are at odds. First you say it's too fast for exclusivity, then you say no self-respecting man would want a girl seeing someone else at the same time... Uh, yes, and? Not at odds at all. The way you GET exclusivity is to show each other that you are important to one another. Telling him that she is considering someone else aint gonna cut it. A girl did this to me once. She went to see an ex-bf, and I found out. So I stopped calling her. She came over, asked why I stopped calling, and I told her I found out. She gave me the load about us not being exclusive yet, and I agreed. I told her I can't be mad at her, but if she wanted to be exclusive with me, that wasn't the way to go about it. so she asks if I still want one with her, to which my reply was, "not any more", and that was that. I don't know if this is a double standard (men can date others, but no girl can) Not at all. I apply any set of rules to either men or women. yes, they were not exclusive, but if she wanted that with him, then she went about it the REALLY wrong way. And if they do end up being exclusive, I'd be very wary of her. or if it's just about her admitting she was dating others. The assumption, of course, would be that, without exclusivity, everyone involved was potentially seeing other people. So, any guy that doesn't ask for an exclusive relationship should be willing to date someone who is seeing someone else. While I see your point here, I still would say that when you are working on a relationship, you don't screw it up by seeing other people. Just like my situation with a girl long ago. We hadn't had any "exclusivity" talk, but we saw each other all the time, and were working on it. She goes to see another guy for a weekend, so she screwed up the work in the relationship that we had done to that point. I agree, of course, that the way the girl brought it up was sloppy. I am assuming she's young. If not, she's certainly not savvy yet. Well if she saw nothing wrong with seeing another guy in lieu of any exclusivity agreement(gee, are we gonna start needing lawyers and signed documents??), then she should have just saw the other guy behind his back until any such agreement was put in place. Instead, it was kind of an insult to throw it in his face and expect him to fight like a whipped pup. In that case, he should have dumped her. I agree. I did in my similar situation long ago So, I don't understand how you think exclusivity and newness play into any of this... the part it plays is that its too new for her to expect him to shout at the hilltops "I LOVE YOU AND YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE FOR ME!" He may be thinking that, but geez, take it slow.
exclusivelyME Posted December 5, 2008 Posted December 5, 2008 Uh, yes, and? Not at odds at all. The way you GET exclusivity is to show each other that you are important to one another. Telling him that she is considering someone else aint gonna cut it. A girl did this to me once. She went to see an ex-bf, and I found out. So I stopped calling her. She came over, asked why I stopped calling, and I told her I found out. She gave me the load about us not being exclusive yet, and I agreed. I told her I can't be mad at her, but if she wanted to be exclusive with me, that wasn't the way to go about it. so she asks if I still want one with her, to which my reply was, "not any more", and that was that. Not at all. I apply any set of rules to either men or women. yes, they were not exclusive, but if she wanted that with him, then she went about it the REALLY wrong way. And if they do end up being exclusive, I'd be very wary of her. While I see your point here, I still would say that when you are working on a relationship, you don't screw it up by seeing other people. Just like my situation with a girl long ago. We hadn't had any "exclusivity" talk, but we saw each other all the time, and were working on it. She goes to see another guy for a weekend, so she screwed up the work in the relationship that we had done to that point. Well if she saw nothing wrong with seeing another guy in lieu of any exclusivity agreement(gee, are we gonna start needing lawyers and signed documents??), then she should have just saw the other guy behind his back until any such agreement was put in place. Instead, it was kind of an insult to throw it in his face and expect him to fight like a whipped pup. I agree. I did in my similar situation long ago the part it plays is that its too new for her to expect him to shout at the hilltops "I LOVE YOU AND YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE FOR ME!" He may be thinking that, but geez, take it slow. I couldn't agree more with everything you said
Dexter Morgan Posted December 5, 2008 Posted December 5, 2008 Take out the caveman club and draw a line in the sand. Tell her exactly what you want, what's in it for her and what she has to do to get that right now. Take the lead. If she can't or doesn't want to follow, then it's time to walk away. Or, the fair thing to do when she told him that she is considering someone else and wanted him to fight for her would be for him to say, "hmmm, well, before I do that, I have to be on even ground with you....you are weighing your options, so let me go out and get some options of my own and we can fight for each other....deal??" Whaddya bet that wouldn't sit well with her?
Trialbyfire Posted December 5, 2008 Posted December 5, 2008 Stockalone, that's exactly it!!!! Being passive gets you nowhere and continues to muddy the waters. Being assertive gets you definitive answers so you can make definitive decisions. This starts at the get-go of the relationship...errrr...interactions. If you want to be with me, it had better be with me...alone! In essence, you're telling her you're worth something, not just the guy in the background who sits by the phone waiting for her decision/confusion to clear up, or is all broken up about it. Dexter, in your example, your approach continues to be passive-aggressive. She had no idea that exclusivity was even on the table. To expect exclusivity without stating it, is an impossible task for anyone. You're setting up your relationships for failure. She went to see an ex-bf, and I found out. So I stopped calling her.
Author Steelrain21 Posted December 5, 2008 Author Posted December 5, 2008 There was a little bit more of that last conversation I had with her that happened after my last post. I actually came out and told her that I'll be ok if things don't work out but that I like her enough to be exclusive with her and not date other people until we see where things go with us. I asked her if she could do that right now and she replied by saying that she didn't know. She strongly believes that if she's not 100% into me then the whole thing won't turn out well. She said that she wants to be able to "test the waters" with other people before we get exclusive so that she knows that she would be making the right choice. Even though I don't like the idea I suppose it makes sense to me if that's truly what she meant by her words. I've been thinking about it and she might have a point I suppose. I guess I could try still seeing her but keeping my options open as well. If I start liking her too much from it I can just cut ties whenever I feel like to avoid getting hurt too bad. I've heard her say that she likes me before but I never actually asked her how much, so I asked her during that conversation. She told me that she liked me "enough to want to cry at the thought of being around me during this situation." After that conversation I was going to bed when she sent me a text message saying that she wished we could have had the situation more sorted earlier. I asked why and she told me because "I want someone to sleep next to." Oh and to answer a question from awhile ago that I forgot to address, I have not been seeing any other girls the last couple weeks since her and I started seeing each other.
Trialbyfire Posted December 5, 2008 Posted December 5, 2008 Steelrain, move on. She's now openly stated she wants to be with others and is aware that exclusivity is on the table. Walk. You don't want to play backburner boy.
carhill Posted December 5, 2008 Posted December 5, 2008 OP, were/are you having sexual relations with other women? Is she having sexual relations with this other man or other men? If yes for either of you, are you both agreeable regarding polyamory? To me, (perhaps not to you), with sex in the picture, the whole dynamic is different. I can't imagine having sex with multiple partners, even when single, but I guess that's because I'm a conservative old fart This bothers me... her quote: I like you more but if i'm not 100% there for you, I don't wanna jump into anything."You're having sex with this person, right? What more is there to jump into? Like you more? Christ, I give up.... have a nice day Edit.....seeing above response. You're a rebound. I agree with TBF, although I think I suggested the same a couple pages ago.... Thanks for answering my question about seeing other women. I hope you'll remember my advice about better qualifying your potentials
Author Steelrain21 Posted December 5, 2008 Author Posted December 5, 2008 OP, were/are you having sexual relations with other women? Is she having sexual relations with this other man or other men? If yes for either of you, are you both agreeable regarding polyamory? When I had mentioned if she could be exclusive right now and she replied with saying she didn't know, she added in that shouldn't wouldn't be sleeping with anyone. She made the comment that she thinks we jumped into sex too fast so I'm not sure how serious she is about putting that to a halt or not. I told her we didn't have to if it didn't feel right, we can just go with the flow.
Trialbyfire Posted December 5, 2008 Posted December 5, 2008 carhill, the entire direction I was going was that he needs clarification and needs to provide clarification. Also, his approach is passive, therefore, he never knew anything was for certain. A part of me still believes that if he's more definitive with her, as in "forget it woman, here are my boundaries. Sayonara.", that she won't suddenly gain more interest in someone who's willing to assert his boundaries. Having said that, if his posts are true reflections of her attitude, I wouldn't bother with her.
xpaperxcutx Posted December 5, 2008 Posted December 5, 2008 When I had mentioned if she could be exclusive right now and she replied with saying she didn't know, she added in that shouldn't wouldn't be sleeping with anyone. She made the comment that she thinks we jumped into sex too fast so I'm not sure how serious she is about putting that to a halt or not. I told her we didn't have to if it didn't feel right, we can just go with the flow. Whether you guys truly had sex too soon or not, you have to stop the sleeping around with her. She already made her point that she wasn't sure, even when you mentioned exclusivity. Sleeping with her won't help her come to a decision. Break away.
carhill Posted December 5, 2008 Posted December 5, 2008 TBF, you need to understand the male perspective. Males are socialized to "go with the flow" where women are concerned strictly because they are easily replaced by another male willing to receive favors for his patience and understanding. This is just how the world works from a male perspective. Be too aggressive and "forward" and assertive and you get replaced. It doesn't matter if she "likes" you or not. It's something you'll never understand because you're not male. Obviously, if the male cares the least (polyamory is a great example of this), he protects himself from being replaced as he has other options existing concurrently. In effect, he proactively replaces her until she proves her worth to him. I don't believe in this philosophy, but we both know it goes on. I'll bet this OP will go back to having sex with one of the "others" now that this lady has indicated she's not "100% interested" in him. After all, it's only been two weeks since he's "seen other ladies". Not earth-shattering amount of time, IMO. As you often say, being assertive and setting boundaries carries risks. For a man who wants to get laid and be in a relationships, those risks are just different than they are for a woman. I agree with you that the philosophy is valid and I support it and have lived it. I also know what it's like to go celibate and unloved for years as well
kashmir Posted December 5, 2008 Posted December 5, 2008 Alright, I'm sick of this thread. OP, just keep sleeping with her for the hell of it until you find another girl. She doesn't seem like she'd be a very good girlfriend anyway.
Trialbyfire Posted December 5, 2008 Posted December 5, 2008 carhill, there's risk in every relationship. Straight up, who will value you if you don't value yourself? You don't need to be an arsehole to be assertive in your needs.
Dexter Morgan Posted December 5, 2008 Posted December 5, 2008 Dexter, in your example, your approach continues to be passive-aggressive. My example? Are you talking about when I ended the relationship with the girl that went to see her x-bf while her and I where working towards a relationship? She messed around on me, I decided I wanted nothing to do with her. As far as i was concerned, she didn't think I was worth any respect or consideration to go off and mess around with another man, so she wasn't someone I wanted to be with. As far as many relationships failing because of the way I handled it? In case you didn't notice, I had decided I didn't want to be with her once I found out. i just decided she didn't deserve the consideration of a phone call in return for the lack of consideration and lack of respect she gave me. She had no idea that exclusivity was even on the table. Then why date him? What is the purpose of dating? Unless its to get a free meal or something, its to see if the relationship can go anywhere. And it can come to an abrupt halt when you find out the person you are dating can't concentrate on one person at a time. But like I said before, its one thing to realize there is no exclusive relationship and see other people. Its quite another to throw someone else you are seeing in the face of the person you want to be exclusive with.
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