mzdolphin Posted December 3, 2008 Posted December 3, 2008 I broke things off with my MM about two months ago. (It was the second breakup). He is still married and asking for me to reconsider our "relationship" again. I've posted in the past. He and I dated 17 years ago, when we were both single. We recently hooked up again, he didn't tell me at first he was married. I found out four or five months into the relationship. He has lived in another state (Virginia) than she (Ohio) for four years. He has his own place. I've been to his home, made love in his bed. He's been at my place. I can call him at anytime. He calls me at anytime. He's spent nights with me. But still I told him married is married. He said his marriage is over in his mind and that for financial reasons (I think it's the house) he doesn't want to pay for a contested divorce and he knows she's going to fight to the death. I tried a couple of months (mainly because I was so in love with him when we were younger and felt fortunate that we found each other again. When we met I was in Pittsburgh and he was in Ohio. Now I live in Virginia about an hour or so from him). But I kept thinking, why not just get a divorce? Most of my friends of course say, "you did the right thing in ending it." But a couple of my friends said "it's not like he's going home to her. They are really separated. And you guys knew each other before he was married." He said he feels no reason to divorce. If she wants a divorce, fine. He'll give it to her. Let her pay, he says. She's ok with pretending, he says (they used to work together and have mutual friends.) I don't want to marry this guy. For a few reasons. But I do enjoy his company and we get along great. I'm just wondering, does his living situation make my case any different? Does me not wanting to get married change things too? Or was I right to just end it?
CarrieT Posted December 3, 2008 Posted December 3, 2008 If you aren't interested in marriage yourself, than I suppose it wouldn't matter if he stayed married himself and you stayed together. If marriage to SOMEONE someday is a desire, than you are limiting yourself from meeting a potential spouse by staying with someone whom you don't want to marry yourself and will never be able to marry you. The bottom line is, what do you want? I'd say that if you want marriage at some point in your life, than you are right to end the relationship because you said this isn't the guy you'd want to marry.
D-Lish Posted December 3, 2008 Posted December 3, 2008 If it's not marriage that you are looking for and you enjoy his company, I honestly don't think it matters much. My ex-husband and I took a long time to actually finalize our divorce after our break up. We lived apart and it was over, the divorce was just a formality. We waited to finish the details for financial reasons as well. One thing I can tell you is that in my personal experience, the paper didn't mean anything because we were finished as a married couple. Do they have children together? That adds complication to a divorce as well.
whichwayisup Posted December 3, 2008 Posted December 3, 2008 He said his marriage is over in his mind and that for financial reasons (I think it's the house) he doesn't want to pay for a contested divorce and he knows she's going to fight to the death. In his mind it's over, but realistically it isn't. I doubt things are half as bad as he's made it out to be between them.. He said he feels no reason to divorce. If she wants a divorce, fine. He'll give it to her. Let her pay, he says. She's ok with pretending, he says (they used to work together and have mutual friends.) Meaning, he doesn't want to be the bad guy but is perfectly happy to go along with how things are in the marriage because making no effort and staying married is better than being alone. That's why he won't divorce..Oh and the fact that he probably knows you two aren't going to end up together, why should he give up his wife, his house, his life as he knows it? I don't want to marry this guy. For a few reasons. But I do enjoy his company and we get along great. I'm just wondering, does his living situation make my case any different? Does me not wanting to get married change things too? Then he has no reason to get divorced if you have no plans on a future with him. Why would a guy go through the hassle of divorce, the house, money, losing everything for someone who at the end of the day doesn't want to be married to him later into the future? Does she know you exist? That you two are having an affair? My guess is no.
jj33 Posted December 3, 2008 Posted December 3, 2008 Are you really sure about how you feel about him? If you were would you be posting? Why would you care if it mattered if you really just looked at it as hanging out and FWB? I would closely examine your motives. Everyone is different but it is very common for people to go into situations saying I can handle this etc and then months later they have fallen in love with their lover and the WHOLE story changes. Seems to me that if you have ended it, then you are not totally comfortable with the situation and you are now in the process of overriding your intuition. Never a good thing to do. Why put yourself in a dead end situation, unless you reallydont want to be in a long term relationship with anyone at the moment.
NoIDidn't Posted December 3, 2008 Posted December 3, 2008 As long as he is married, it matters to me. My uncle left my aunt and moved in with another woman. He was there for ten years. One day, my aunt came home and found him in her bed. No lie! LOL! And he never left again. There was never any active reconcilliation going on. He just showed up - and she didn't want him! So yeah, I think living arrangements matter. Suppose you get serious, though not married and he dies or gets seriously ill. His W could make things difficult for you. I would hope that she wouldn't - but the fact that she could says to me that he should get divorced. As long as he is still married to her, she owns half of his life's accummulations. And that's not fair to you.
LucreziaBorgia Posted December 3, 2008 Posted December 3, 2008 If his W still doesn't know about the A, then living arrangements are a moot point. It is what will happen when she does that will dictate whether or not living arrangements matter. If she does know, and doesn't care - then it doesn't really matter either way.
noforgiveness Posted December 3, 2008 Posted December 3, 2008 Forget the whole he's married part. How about he spent the first five months of your relationship LYING to you. Why would you want to be with a man that couldn't be honest with you? You know he lies to his wife and you know he began this thing with you in a big lie. No respect for anyone but himself. If he respected you and your relationship he would have been honest with you about his marital status.
norajane Posted December 3, 2008 Posted December 3, 2008 Because no matter how much time he spends with me, it bothers me that he's married. I think it's something he needs to take care of. He asked me to give him "until the end of this year" to put things in order, taking care of property issues (she's on his health insurance) and other financial matters. I'm thinking that's only a few months and seems reasonable. I don't believe all committed relationships need to end in marriage. I'm divorced and this would be his second. I never say never, but right now I'm just looking to have a committed relationship with him with no other parties involved. And marriage, even if long distance, puts someone else in the picture. It's funny, I came to this conclusion when I was talking to my stepdaughter who is in a relationship with a guy who is talking marriage. I pointed to how he was making all these plans and talking about what they could get for their condos and how he would need a garage as signs he's getting really serious. Then I thought about signs with my guy and thought, what the freak. He is just talking and talking. And then I thought about me, I wasn't making any plans, having dreams about the future with him. I was just happy he was 90 miles away and not all in "my business". Next week is my birthday and he called to make plans to take me to a concert. I told him no. That I can't do this. I told him that he's married and that keeps me from making plans. It seems so silly, but it's important to be able to "plan" things with your partner. Yeah, it's hard (for now) but I really started the see the point that I was wasting my time. Not in the sense of waiting for him, but just not being able to really go all out in the relationship, you know, make plans. He claims he will "take care of things" after the season (covers a sport). I don't even think that's relevant at this point. I think he lied to me and I lied to myself about what I was getting out of this. I was really enjoying reconnecting with my past (as a former sports writer) and what it felt like to be with him back then. But back then we were both single. You posted this in your thread from October. Have you suddenly just changed your mind and it no longer bothers you that he's married, you no longer care about making plans, you no longer care that he lied to you and that you're lying to yourself about what you get out of this affair? Have you suddenly decided that you're willing to accept less than what you want, an open, honest relationship with someone who isn't tied to a wife? Have you suddenly decided you're willing to accept less just because that's all he's willing to offer?
CAMAYPARK Posted December 3, 2008 Posted December 3, 2008 I think, though, it really depends on what you want out of the R. Be really honest with yourself. What about if he's still married but both of you live together, sort off? In my case, he moved out and now have his own place, but he lives in NZ whilst I will be moving soon to Spore. Like you, I am not interested in a marriage but I have now set down guidelines and some non-negiotable terms. When he's with me, we live together and vice versa. I have met his children and all his close friends. His W now knows but his W's personality is like another member on this forum (*can't remember the member's name). Furthermore, he's now spending more time with me, etc. So, can you deal with the fact that he's still married but both of you are living in separate states? That means that both of you do not spend a lot of time together, are you alright with that? Do you think that he's lying to you? IMO, if you want this to work, you have to have certain boundaries for yourself and well as for him. Then, he will know that these are your terms and overstep it at his peril.
frannie Posted December 3, 2008 Posted December 3, 2008 I'd be more worried about the fact he lied to you about his marital status than anything. How anyone could do that to someone is beyond me, and how on earth can you trust anything else he's saying? But added to that, the fact that he 'doesn't seen any reason' to get divorced is a whole other thing. You are NOT happy with it, you've said that in other threads. So there is a very good reason for him to divorce: you're not happy being an OW, not being able to make plans, guilt, having to lie and all the other things that make OW-dom unhappy and uncomfortable. I think you're thinking around the issue because you want to spend time with him, you're putting your feelings and needs aside and wondering whether or not you're being too 'hard-line' about it. But you're still in an affair, whether or not he actually lives with her, she's still his W, he's still a cheat, and he still prefers to look like the good guy while you suffer, and he thinks that's all OK and asks you to 'reconsider your relationship'. grr I don't see any good reason to compromise your feelings and needs just so HE can take the easy route, do you? But obviously, it's your life, and your decision on what you will or won't accept. But someone who lied about being married while you were blindly trusting him at the beginning would have seen me off to start with. We all have our different tolerances!
Author mzdolphin Posted December 4, 2008 Author Posted December 4, 2008 In his mind it's over, but realistically it isn't. I doubt things are half as bad as he's made it out to be between them.. Meaning, he doesn't want to be the bad guy but is perfectly happy to go along with how things are in the marriage because making no effort and staying married is better than being alone. That's why he won't divorce..Oh and the fact that he probably knows you two aren't going to end up together, why should he give up his wife, his house, his life as he knows it? Then he has no reason to get divorced if you have no plans on a future with him. Why would a guy go through the hassle of divorce, the house, money, losing everything for someone who at the end of the day doesn't want to be married to him later into the future? Does she know you exist? That you two are having an affair? My guess is no. Yes, she knows I exist. I told her myself. Things are that bad. We are all journalist and by looking at datelines and bylines I can confirm without a doubt that they have lived in separate states for four years. I also did some investigating (he doesn't know this) and found out that from 97 to 2004 they shared ownership of a hourse in Ohio. In 2004 his name was no longer on the house, just hers. So something certainly happened in the time frame that he moved. He did say they made a deal to move together, that they would only take a job with a news outlet that took them both. They were both hired by a newspaper in Florida and she changed her mind at the last minute. He decided to move. He lived in Florida and she stayed in Ohio for a year. He said he saw her once that year. He said he knew then that the marriage was over. He felt betrayed. But they tried for the first year to conduct a "long distance marriage". But things got worse. He knows I don't want to get married. This is his second marriage and he's not so keen on the idea either. We both talked about what would be a committed relationship and he thinks we need to be in the same city. Right now I'm not sure what I want in the end. I do know they he and I have much in common (both love sports, from same area, both political and news junkies and play tennis a lot). We feel like best buds. We spend hours on the phone and when we are together we have a blast. If he were just some dude I met I wouldn't even consider this. But he is someone I was once in love with and I think he too wonders "what if" we stayed together. I dumped him back then. I was young and really not ready to be that serious.
Author mzdolphin Posted December 4, 2008 Author Posted December 4, 2008 Forget the whole he's married part. How about he spent the first five months of your relationship LYING to you. Why would you want to be with a man that couldn't be honest with you? You know he lies to his wife and you know he began this thing with you in a big lie. No respect for anyone but himself. If he respected you and your relationship he would have been honest with you about his marital status. You make some good points and I addressed that with him. When we hooked up I made the assumption that he was single. He was living by himself and when I met him years ago he had been divorced. When I finally figured it out, he said he knew he should have come clean and worried that if he told me at first that I wouldn't see him. And then the longer the lie went on the worse he thought my reaction would be because of the lie.
Author mzdolphin Posted December 4, 2008 Author Posted December 4, 2008 You posted this in your thread from October. Have you suddenly just changed your mind and it no longer bothers you that he's married, you no longer care about making plans, you no longer care that he lied to you and that you're lying to yourself about what you get out of this affair? Have you suddenly decided that you're willing to accept less than what you want, an open, honest relationship with someone who isn't tied to a wife? Have you suddenly decided you're willing to accept less just because that's all he's willing to offer? No I still care that he lied. I had some time to think about it and I decided that this is working for me at this time in my life. There is no excuse for lying. Again, I'm not trying to get this guy to the alter. I know it goes against what is socially acceptable, but I really don't want to get married again. Really. I do want companionship, but right now I don't have the time. I had to admit that this is working for me now because honestly I am not "available" to anyone but my son. I run a business, working on a book and raising my son. This is more than enough relationship for me. My mind may change later. About the lying, I need to explain that I discovered him online and he asked me to call. He said he had been looking for me. He noticed my new last name and asked if I were married. I said no I'm divorced. I never asked him if he was married because at the time we were just talking. Then he suggested we meet while he was in the area. We did, their were sparks, but we just talked over dinner. He wanted to see me again. He should have told me right then. He brought up that I dumped him. I reminded him that he was seeing some other woman then and I figured he needed to make a choice. At the time a friend of his told me that things were serious with him and this woman and that I could not compete. So I made the choice for him. Besides, I was 25 and he was 33, divorced with three kids and a homeowner. I was moving on with my career. I moved to New York, he stayed in Ohio. I later found out this so-called friend had tried to date his wife and they weren't that close as friends anyway. They were old marine buddies. Anyway, the odd thing is that this friend, who told me this, is now the executive editor where my MM is on staff. At the time they were all working together (the friend, the wife and MM) at the paper in Ohio. I was at a paper in Pennsylvania. I met him on assignment.
norajane Posted December 4, 2008 Posted December 4, 2008 There is no excuse for lying. Again, I'm not trying to get this guy to the alter It doesn't really matter why he lied, or that you don't want to get married. The problem is you know that he is capable of deceiving you for months and months. And that he was selfish enough to do so because he wanted what he wanted regardless of how you'd feel about both the lying and the truth of what he was lying about. He manipulated you into a relationship, and now you think you care too much to drop him - THAT is exactly what he was going for with his lies, or omission of truth, if you prefer.
Author mzdolphin Posted December 4, 2008 Author Posted December 4, 2008 I think, though, it really depends on what you want out of the R. Be really honest with yourself. What about if he's still married but both of you live together, sort off? In my case, he moved out and now have his own place, but he lives in NZ whilst I will be moving soon to Spore. Like you, I am not interested in a marriage but I have now set down guidelines and some non-negiotable terms. When he's with me, we live together and vice versa. I have met his children and all his close friends. His W now knows but his W's personality is like another member on this forum (*can't remember the member's name). Furthermore, he's now spending more time with me, etc. So, can you deal with the fact that he's still married but both of you are living in separate states? That means that both of you do not spend a lot of time together, are you alright with that? Do you think that he's lying to you? IMO, if you want this to work, you have to have certain boundaries for yourself and well as for him. Then, he will know that these are your terms and overstep it at his peril. He and I only live 90 minutes drive apart in Virginia. We see each other every week. Usually he drives up. She lives in Ohio. When someone has lied to you, you always question. But at some point you have to decide if you believe them or not. As a journalist, and former fact checker at a major news magazine, I go through the things that I know to be true first. These are things that I have documentation on, public records, or first hand knowledg. Then those things he claims, I check them based on other things I know to be true. We talk every night, sometimes three times a day. I know for a fact she lives in Ohio. This is not a question. I can prove that the home they owned together was switched to her name only in 2004. I know he filed for bankruptcy in 2003 (this supports his claim that after writing a book in 2001 (I can see the book on amazon.com) he left the paper and started his own marketing company. The company failed and he was out of work. Because of the few jobs in the industry he needed to look outside of Ohio. They discussed it and decided that he wouldn't take a job anywhere unless they offered her a job too. She agreed. She backed out even though they were both offered jobs at a Florida paper.) It is a fact that he joined a paper in Florida in late 2004 or early 2005. I can see his bylines in that paper). This is further supported by a bodcast I heard him do online in May 2007, in which he says "We are trying to do this commuter marriage thing". I see her byline in the Ohio paper on a daily basis. She is a life-long Ohio resident. He and I are from Florida. We are both sports journalists (I know longer cover sports full-time). I've been to his place. There are no signs of any woman in his closet, bathroom, anywhere. And he has lived there for three years. He says they haven't slept together in a year (this I can't prove or know to be true). She knows about me. This is a fact. He knows she knows. He claims he has asked for divorce and she refuses. (This I don't know to be true). They do have adult children (three from his previous marriage and two she has from her previous marriage). He accepts her daughters as his own. All the children are adults. None live at home. Recently the oldest daugther (who he says knows about the affair, because her mother told her) told him she just wanted him to be happy. He says he is not committed to his wife or his marriage. This appears to be true.
Author mzdolphin Posted December 4, 2008 Author Posted December 4, 2008 It doesn't really matter why he lied, or that you don't want to get married. The problem is you know that he is capable of deceiving you for months and months. And that he was selfish enough to do so because he wanted what he wanted regardless of how you'd feel about both the lying and the truth of what he was lying about. He manipulated you into a relationship, and now you think you care too much to drop him - THAT is exactly what he was going for with his lies, or omission of truth, if you prefer. You are correct. It was actually about four months (with the first two months mostly via phone calls). Regardless, he lied. So you wouldn't be in a relationship with anyone who ever lies to you?
norajane Posted December 4, 2008 Posted December 4, 2008 You are correct. It was actually about four months (with the first two months mostly via phone calls). Regardless, he lied. So you wouldn't be in a relationship with anyone who ever lies to you? Not when they lie about something like that. My most recent ex was a friend I'd known for almost 20 years. We'd tried having a relationship a couple of times before, and this most recent time, I thought we were finally getting our act together. Until I found out a couple of years later that he had lied to me in the beginning of the relationship about when he had broken up with the woman he was dating before me. I had to break up with him even though it was incredibly painful. Knowing that he was capable of deceiving me for his own purposes showed me that he put his own desires first at the expense of anyone else, even those he purported to love. You have to have trust, and you have to trust that they won't keep something from you for their own selfish purposes at your expense. Without that, the relationship has no solid footing. It's built on a house of cards, and you never know when you'll discover the next lie and have it all come tumbling down. The key is your guy lied to protect himself and get what HE wanted, regardless of how you would feel about it and how it would affect you. That's the selfish act of a teenager, or a very manipulative adult. And the manipulation will come out in other ways, too, sooner or later.
frannie Posted December 4, 2008 Posted December 4, 2008 So you wouldn't be in a relationship with anyone who ever lies to you? Not about something enormous like being married, no! As norajane said, it shows that he put his own needs first at your expense. He even said it himself: he lied because he knew you wouldn't date him if you knew he was married. That's so incredibly selfish and horrible, to get you to do something (unknowingly) that you would never do if you knew the truth. And it shows he's able to do the same kind of thing again. I'd never be able to trust someone who displayed that kind of wanton disregard for my well-being. And for what? So he could get to sleep with you and get what he wanted.
Author mzdolphin Posted December 4, 2008 Author Posted December 4, 2008 The key is your guy lied to protect himself and get what HE wanted, regardless of how you would feel about it and how it would affect you. That's the selfish act of a teenager, or a very manipulative adult. And the manipulation will come out in other ways, too, sooner or later. >>>>>>>> Good point.
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